Magazine - Fescue culture: How sustainable is it?

3 Nov 2005 by iantom

Hi Martyn.

Are you having a problem getting bums on seats for your forthcoming conference? If you are going to try and stir up some emotions with your attack on Fescues you are going to have to do much better than this. If you think that there will be some kind of historical debate at Blackpool with the poa brigade v Fescue you will be very disappointed. The true conference on fescue greens will be delivered at BTME in Harrogate the 26th/27th January so please come along and make your point of view then if you have such strong feelings.

Yours

From one of the Worlds 0.5% golf courses with more than 30% fescue in its greens sward.

4 Nov 2005 by Poa7

Martin,

Nice to see you are at least trying to stimulate debate on this subject. Some interesting facts to consider, I look forward to discussing these issues and more in Blackpool this year, and, I'm sure that we will all discuss these once again during Harrogate.

With regard to the above reply from Mr anonymous "I would not say that Mr Jones is "attacking fescues" although I would say you were attacking Mr Jones.

If you were a real enthusiast you would be looking to further your knowledge at ALL opportunities. No doubt you WILL NOT be attending the Blackpool conference. Probably best if you don't as I have a feeling you may be wearing 'blinkers'!

Regards,
Phil Sharples

4 Nov 2005 by iantom

Hi Phil,

Oh dear you seem upset with me. My name is Ian Tomlinson and yes I will be at Blackpool with some of my Danish Colleagues. We shall be the ones with the blinkers on sitting in the corner. Having worked at 5 different clubs in 3 different countries in the last 30 years I would say you will be hard pressed to find a more enthousiastic Course Manager and as for furthering my knowledge I learn and also pass on my knowledge. Just this week I spent a day lecturing along with Nick Parks of the R&A to 150 Course Managers/ Assistants on the benefits of Fescue putting surfaces in Denmark. Am I attacking Martyn? No. I simply find his statements false. Fact KingsBarns has 100% pure fecue greens and holds the Dunhill Links Tournament every year. Is the British Open no longer classed as a major tournament. I can assure you that it has more than 50% fescue in its greens. Martyn is just winding up people like you with his statements. It is a good management stratergy to make sure people will attend the NTF. On the statement of whether fescue is an achievable goal and what research supports this hypothesis. Well how about 70 golf courses in Denmark all on the fescue route. One course with 100% fescue greens after 13 years in play, 40,000/50,000 rounds per year, no winter greens, no fungicides and 30kg N/Ha/year and built on old clay farm land 25 miles from the coast. Sustainable YES, World class putting surfaces YES(quote R&A) so why do U.K. greenkeepers go on the defesive as soon as fescue is mentioned and start knocking it? The British Greenkeeper was once regarded as the best in the world. As in every walk of life in time things change and it appears that the Danes are now leading the way in terms of greens management so Phil you may after all have to learn from a foreigner about fescue when in the U.K 35 years ago we were the masters in that field just like English footballers have been surpasted by the importation of European players into the Premier League. I look forward to meeting you at Blackpool and who knows, one day your nic-name maybe Fescue 7 and not Poa 7

4 Nov 2005 by Poa7

Dear Mr Tomlinson,

Thank you for you insight into fescue longevity. I will make a note of your thoughts. I'm so glad you decided to explain your issue. It seems a shame you could not have posted some of these comments in the first instance and saved all this typing.

As for your statement "the Danes are now leading the way in terms of greens management" well now ! that is a matter of opinion. Sweeping statement in my book, but
I will certainly look forward to meeting you at the NTF conference anyway.

Lastly, with regard to your comments regarding learning from a 'foreigner' it so happens I don't actually care who I listen to (not learn from), foreign or not. What I do care about is that I listen to and note the thoughts of many people before I make my own decisions/conclusions on things. Hence my attendance at many conferences, not only to those where the debate is focused upon fescue management.

Best wishes,
Phil Sharples

4 Nov 2005 by David Rhodes

Hi Ian and Phil.
Interesting debate.
Can I ask Ian how the actual proportion of Fescue is measured in a sward?
Is this done objectively, and was this the case in relation to the figures that you quote.

Regards.
David Rhodes.

4 Nov 2005 by Anonymous

The Fescue Debate continues

My goodness, don’t people get worked up easily? What was the reason for flagging up the ‘Fescue Debate’ at the NTF Conference in December? Well, it was to encourage debate – but not antagonism. So, hopefully, people whom I consider to be friends of mine won’t fall out with each other over this issue. After all, that is what a debate should be about; people expressing their views while respecting the views of others. Knowing both parties, I’m sure that a genial discussion will take place between them at the Conference.

In response to Ian Tomlinson’s comments on my posting: Ian, as you know from having been to the Conference before, we don’t have ‘bums’ on our seats; they are all highly respected, quality delegates who attend for the educational experience and an opportunity to exchange views in a friendly, comfortable and sociable environment. Joking apart, the role of the NTF is to provide an opportunity for education; but not indoctrination. The programme offers a balanced and unbiased view of turf management; slanted neither to fescue culture or any other culture. It seeks to provide a platform for researchers, educationalist, agronomists, and turf managers to share their experiences.

Some time after the release of the NTF Conference programme, BTME announced that they too are going to feature a debate in which fescue culture, it would seem, will be a primary focus. The NTF would never claim that the debate that follows in Blackpool is ‘THE’ debate or the ‘TRUE’ debate. It is a debate and those who contribute to the discussions will take away with them whatever they wish. There is no intention to persuade the attendees one way or another. We live in a free country and folk can express their views and form their own conclusions. I hope that all debates, whether at the NTF Conference, BTME or anywhere else, are equally enjoyable and rewarding.

Now to technical points! I thank Ian for his views but I don’t agree. Kingsbarn is a wonderful golf course; beautifully designed, superbly constructed, and brilliantly managed and I would recommend anyone to visit and enjoy the experience. Stuart McColm and his greens staff have done a wonderful job in producing a fescue-dominant sward. But it isn’t 100% fescue. It is probably the closest that any course has achieved and, consequently, our untold admiration is for Stuart’s work.

What is ‘Sustainable’? It would seem that this term is interpreted by each person in their own way. Ian points to fescue greens that have been in existence for thirteen years. Other people could point to Poa greens that have been around for a lot longer. Still others could point to Bentgrass greens that are a good deal older. All, no doubt, can claim their own benefits and, probably, will express their views at any debate, wherever it may be. That is what is good about debates; people expressing alternative views.

With regards to Danish golf courses, praises too to the Course Managers for their efforts and, should any wish a detailed scientific survey and species composition study to be carried out, I would be delighted to be commissioned to do one. It would be accurate, unbiased and totally honest. I don’t sell anything and I don’t have any bias to a specific culture. I’m interested in scientific studies that provide quantifiable evidence. Hearsay, I pay little to no attention to.
With regard to the debate on UK and ‘foreign’ greenkeepers; nationality probably has nothing to do with it. There are great greenkeepers the world over, all with their own experiences and all with localised knowledge. Whatever country they are from, they are well worth listening to and learning from.

Whatever your views, whether British, Danish, Irish, American, or Martian, the NTF will welcome you. Whatever your thoughts and beliefs; whether you want fescue greens, bentgrass greens, Bermudagrass greens, Paspalum greens, Zoysiagrass greens, or Poa greens, we try to create an atmosphere where people will want to hear what you have to say.

Yes, Ian, we are happy if we get as many people as possible attending. And, of course, we try to. We’d be fools not to. Louise, Linda and I organise the Conference in our spare time; nobody at the NTF receives any remuneration for their efforts; and all its helpers do everything voluntarily. We do all this work to provide greenkeepers and groundsmen with an opportunity to learn from some of the most revered experts in the world; to improve their standing and career prospects; raise the profile of our industry; and so that they can enjoy the company of like-minded people. I’m sure that you, Phil and I will have some enjoyable and frank discussions about all sorts of topics, be it in conference time or in the bar afterwards. I look forward to welcoming you again.

Kind regards,
Martyn Jones

5 Nov 2005 by iantom

Thank you for your response Martyn,

I am intrigued that you feel it necessary to do a scientific,detailed,unbiased and totally honest survey and species composition in Denmark. Are you saying then that the R&A, the STRI, PSG Agronomy, the Dutch,Swedish and Norwegion Golf Federations agronomists and consultatants who have all visited Denmark the last 12 months are not qualified to assess the species compositions in the greens that they have seen and that their findings have been biased?

I attach a photo of my 13th green this year. Five years ago it was pure poa and with 5cm of thatch. Today you tell me I need a survey done to tell me the sward composition.

David, the sward composition is measured using a point quadrat and visual inspection.

Looking forward to seeing you all in Blackpool

5 Nov 2005 by ricam

About time I added my ten penneth. I all started in Denmark about 10 years ago when I was asked to visit Falster Golf Club by Rikke Dineson's late father, to see if anything could be done to it to bring it back to one of the top clubs in Denmark.
Twenty five years of no aeration , plenty of water, and tonnes of fertiliser, advised by the consultant to most Danish Golf Clubs at that time had lead to a 100% poa-annua golf course. AS most other clubs in Denmark who were taking the same consultants advice were in the same boat.
Its a long story ,but Falster GC purchased from me the correct turf maintenance machinery, the were shown how and when to use it , and the gained the experience of Chris Haspell ,who at that time was working for my company. By working long hours, Chris, withe the help of his wife and the owner of the club, set about bringing the course around,
Basic greenkeeping practices were implemented, plenty of aeration, wether it be vertidraining, coring slitting, were carried out as much as possible. Let me tell you , I have photos to prove it there was no root growth on the whole of the course, the turf was just lay on top of the soil, and when we used the vertidrain it lifted like a carpet.
Chris persevered, all the Danish greenkeepers thought he was crazy, you just did not carry out aeration in Denmark
However after 3 years hard graft Falster Golf club was transformed and a few of the better greenkeepers started asking Chris what he had done to achieve the results. Chris explained his ways and methods to them , I benifited because they purchased equipment from me, and noew these clubs have achieved surfaces that are the envy of others.
It's not rocket science, just a combination of basic greenkeeping practices, hard work, , having the ability to carry out your convictions, and most important of all for the clubs who wish to rid themselves of poa, having the backing of your greens committee, if you haven't it will destroy you.

Rest assured scientific evidence is not required, we all know that disease hits poa -annua first therefore chemicals are requiredto combat this To my untrained
mind, simple get rid of poa. I have been in the industry 30 years it was stated then in 1976 that over watering and over fertilising led to poa, simple cut down on them.
Dont forget in most of europe chemicals are banned and artificial fertilisers are starting to have extra tax imposed on them.
For all of you who wish to criticise, dont just go over and see the results for yourselves, any of the greenkeepers will welcome you with open arms and show you the results.
The are achieving playing surfaces that we all should be proud of.
its not very often I put pen to paper
Regards,
Richard Campey.
M.D. Campey Turfcare

5 Nov 2005 by Anonymous

Hi Ian

Firstly, Ian, I haven't said that anyone is wrong but I also reserve the right to defer any judgement without first hand knowledge or conclusive evidence. I merely stated that, if someone wishes me to do a detailed survey, I will be delighted to carry one out.

I believe that a scientific understanding should be based on clear, scientific data. All variables should be considered and explored. Bigotry is often based on flimsy, anecdotal evidence. That, I hope, is what everyone wants to avoid. Consequently, I would be very grateful if you would kindly forward the research paper/s that have been produced by these or other bodies involved. Please ensure that the reports include the dates, protocol of the investigation, materials and methodology of the research, and detailed data obtained, along with a comprehensive historical record of all treatments related to the site for the preceding 12 months.

To date, I have not been privy to any such research results and I am not aware of any being made public. However, I will be extremely interested in the information and can assure you of a very detailed response, outlining the pros and cons of the research results.

I repeat, so that there is no further confusion; I am not critical of anyone who wishes to culture fescue. But I do ask that similar respect is shown to those who wish to culture another species or who simply place greater importance on creating a playing surface, regardless of the species composition.

I'm sure that we will both have much greater pleasure discussing these issues over a drink in Blackpool, rather than in this time-consuming manner. A drink and a chat is much more pleasurable and, no doubt, more productive.

Looking forward to seeing you and having a thoroughly enjoyable week.

Martyn

10 Jan 2006 by stuartgolfer

Hi guys Stuart Yarwood from Lymm gc in sunny cheshire hear. 1st thing well done Richard Campey, you ve always been a great bloke in my book but you ve just surpassed yourself with that reply. its about bloody time people started to listen to folk like yourself. well done, i ll buy you a pint in spearmint rhino, harrogate.
2nd thing Ian i would love to chat to you in harrogate as im 5 years in from poa bog to 70% bent and applying 40-50kg/n year on a parkland course. just making the swith to fescue. i am positive. you cant miss me as im really tall and will probably have a pint in my hand, or 07861 660830. cheers.Keep up the good work.