Magazine - Wembley officials in a sticky spot over sub-standard pitch

13 Oct 2008 by BC

Its all been said before, they had the chance to get things right and they certainly had long enough. Its a question of stadium operational pitch management know how and using the correct products and suppliers and design. There are people who know what these things are and how to obtain them and people who dont. If the national stadium continues to take its advice from people who dont know and sub standard products then it will never progress above the status quo.
If Wembley stadium or the F.A. require advice on operations, design and products that will give them the surface they desire there is an organization they can contact.

I intend to live forever, so far so good...

13 Oct 2008 by robbo

Until you work in the enviroment of a wrap around Stadium you cannot pass comment. When I was at St Mary's which is a third of the height of Wembley, it is noticably more difficult to grow grass let alone a turf able to withstand winter sports. I reckoned at the Stadium we could cope with one match per week tops! yet a pitch in the open at the training ground could cope with 6 sessions a week and need minimal input to still produce a quality turf.

It is noticable at Charterhouse School where we have 15 pitches and will play 35 plus matches a week with training twice a week on all pitches. The pitches recieve a minimum input, not a lot more than a cut or two a week with gangs, a run other with a quadraplay once a fortnight, some pitches never getting fed and vertidraining once a year and yet all the pitches are of a good standard, some that get more attention being very good. Yet this is because the pitches are in the open with no restriction of light and air movement.

I am sure steve is well aware of all the products available to help grow grass however you still need light and air. Artificial lights help but do not replace natural sunlight, the fans help move air across the surface but not the same as gentle breeze blowing over the open sports field.

Chuck a stage of over 400 tonnes on it plus then covering it to allow a few 10's of thousand fans jumping up and down, it doesn't help. Returfing is probably the only option however this is costly and gives a groundsman the headache of trying to keep the surface level, and present what appears to be a patch work quilt of grass, and also hoping that the new turf is a good quality with a very low thatch content that will go rotten very quickly in a high sided stadium and there is no garantee that the turf will root into the rootzone.

Steve I am sure will be using all the expert advice he needs, he will then present his case to his boss and others and they will make the decision as to what happens to the turf. Remeber the debt is big and the marketing department will have been asked to make as much out of the stadium as possible including use of the pitch. It is a national venue not just the national teams pitch, wrong for a football fans perspective but a fact nether the less. I feel so Sorry for Steve, Steve, Karl and Dave as all they are ever going to get is flack for the surface and all they can do is react to a marketing schedule designed to create revenue.

Its going to be a long haul in my opinion, with WNSL going through a large learning curve with a lot of I told you so when it goes wrong and very little thanks when it goes right.

I wish good luck to the Wembley Ground staff.

Rant over

13 Oct 2008 by BC

You are one of the few stadium professionals I have a healthy respect for but in this case I am afraid i disagree with your sentiment. Wembley are not well aware of the products and by that I do not mean incidental items I mean the fundamental infrastructure of the whole pitch! If they were aware the pitch would be getting nothing but praise.
I will say it again and I know it is the opinion of the pitchcare team also-wembley did not go into this blindfolded or in haste, they had several years to budget for and find correct solutions. They were also acutely aware of what event schedule they were going to have.
There are worse situations than Wembley, infact the wembley job would be way down on the scale of difficult stadium jobs around the globe if the fundamental aspects were correct. This is a temperate climate it does not get any easier to manage grass than a temperate climate!
As for working in wrap around stadia unless it was a general comment? but if it was for me then i honestly dont know anyone more experienced or more on the forefront of stadia pitch management technology. In the next three years alone I am due to bring online 8 new stadia all of major importance all hosting some of the worlds most high profile events ranging in wrap around capacity from 40,000 to almost 95,000 plus sliding roofs and all sorts of rooves. I have managed more than 300 major none sporting stadium events sandwiched in between sport and am the only stadium staff person let alone turf manager in the world to have worked in 5 fifa 5 star stadia plus many others of national importance. (in uk groundsmen get a nosebleed coping with two major concerts a year in summer!)
Is it so galling for the industry for one individual to have the answer to the puzzle they cannot solve, pardon me for coming up with the solutions or perhaps i will stay at home whilst all pitches are made plastic.
I also wish the groundstaff good luck, this is not about maintenance issues and never has been this is about the fundamentals.

I intend to live forever, so far so good...

14 Oct 2008 by Neil Dixon

Robbo, i believe GATE 13 has worked in a stadium(s) environment, (judging from his previous posts anyway)wether he should be giving his opinion in this matter is another issue and one that i dont particulary agree with.

14 Oct 2008 by BC

I can give my opinion on anything i want although they do edit and in some cases not post at all my posts. Keep on working at the same 1 hectare of turf in your temperate environments the worlds best groundsmen, pitch constructors, turf growers each and every one! Do you know what other people in other countries actually say about the new wembley? if you are upset by these posts then get those slaughterings translated.
Perhaps one day when you have experienced being replaced by a plastic pitch you will realise why i am such a @£@$%$@ on this issue and why its so important wembley is a success.
The sooner you realise its not about me and its not about who is head groundsman there you might work out my crusade is 100% to ensure natural stadium football pitches survive.
I wish the ground staff all the good luck they can get too this is not a maintenance issue its a fundamental operational and design error.

I intend to live forever, so far so good...

14 Oct 2008 by Leeboy Last edited 15 Oct 2008

Matt (Gate 13),

'in uk groundsmen get a nosebleed coping with two major concerts a year in summer!'

I certainly take exception to such a comment as this, though it doesnt appear to be aimed at anyone in particular, every stadium is different with different pressures and whether it is one concert or five, if you are not there at the time you will have no idea as a distant outsider of the conditions leading up to or following such events whether or not someone has worked on similar events elsewhere-no two events are the same in respect of weather, set up,proximity of next event, and no two stadiums are the same either and each event is co ordinated according to the venue, so whilst the main issues and main set up may be the same there will always be differences from venue to venue. I dont know the situation regarding the Madonna concert, but I am sure that it isnt a coincidence that both Wembley and the Millenium Stadium have been criticised following her shows and a German Bundesliga game was called off on the day of the game three days after one of her concerts was held in their stadium recently due to the damage caused and the subsequent returf not being up to scratch it seems (http://www.thelocal.de/14273/20080912/), which would be a good indication I would think of the sheer size and scale of the show. Last week we went from having 10 nights of concerts in June and a rugby game in July to having nothing within a matter of days due to a change in circumstances, and our outlook upon hearing about the possibility of 10 night of concerts plus rugby was if they are going to have them they will as the stadium was always designed to be multi use to a degree as long as it fits in with the core business of the companies needs which is obviously football-no one at the time was passed a tissue for their nose, nor did anyone ask for one and at no time was medical assistance required. We are not so much looked at as a stadium at times, more a venue, and I am sure such events will take place again here in the future at some point, we have had them before and will have them again.

I notice when there is a criticism of Wembley that you always have a lot to say about the infrastructure there without going into to much detail, can you elaborate on what you mean a great deal more than you are at the moment or is it just a case of sour grapes as you didnt get the job there yourself?

Two other comments you have put seem to contradict themselves as well:

'i honestly dont know anyone more experienced or more on the forefront of stadia pitch management technology. In the next three years alone I am due to bring online 8 new stadia all of major importance all hosting some of the worlds most high profile events ranging in wrap around capacity from 40,000 to almost 95,000 plus sliding roofs and all sorts of rooves. I have managed more than 300 major none sporting stadium events sandwiched in between sport and am the only stadium staff person let alone turf manager in the world to have worked in 5 fifa 5 star stadia plus many others of national importance.'

Followed closely by:

'The sooner you realise its not about me'

It just appears that a thread about Wembley always turns into a publicity bandwagon for Matt Frost's career past,present and future and his 'crusade'.

I may be wrong about all of the above, but thats how I read it anyway.

15 Oct 2008 by Neil Dixon

Matt ( if i can call you that)

You are of course entitled to your opinion the same as anyone else, but, i dont believe it is good practice or very professional to offer negative opinions about others on a public forum.

That is my opinion.

15 Oct 2008 by BC

My final say on the subject to make it clear Wembley is not a problem of Head groundsman and I am purposely being none specific as to where and who the problem is because like you said (n.dixon) it is unprofessional to offer negative opinions to others, so I dont see your problem. The point i am conveying is that a, there is a problem obviously, b, that problem has a solution/solutions.
Regarding concerts I agree with everything you said lee, it was just a general comment as in general again the 'way i read it' is that groundstaff relay future pitch conditions down to concerts which for the most part are organized several months if not a year in advance.

I intend to live forever, so far so good...

15 Oct 2008 by Leeboy

We believe part of our problem at the stadium with the pitch IS down to the concerts. The fact we get less than some-not all-other stadiums to establish a sward to last 9 months is only down to them, as that is what stops us having the 8-10 week window some have, hence why our pitch doesnt reach 100% cover till mid-September and is usually one of the first to show signs of wear due to the short window the grass has to mature. Whilst we always knew we would have other events, there is no doubt that these events do affect the pitch, no matter how far ahead they are planned. The upside of such events though is that it does test you as a groundsman and certainly improves you as one as well, as many others up and down the country would probably agree.

Why not offer us an explanation of how you would go forward in the situation that a facility such as Wembley has, because all we seem to be hearing is this is wrong and that is wrong without you actually telling us what is (supposedly) wrong. We can all talk a good game, backing it up is another thing though. We can all criticise, and in fairness if you go back a few months no one in this country had any real concern about a pitch for a certain European final until the actual groundsman there criticised it himself, which created a snowball effect where everyone got on board and a live tv interview which included a couple of four letter words which could have been avoided by saying nothing at all, and at the same time not making British groundsman look even more miserable, negative and unapproachable than people already think.

Interestingly you name the 'Pitchcare team' as showing the same concerns for Wembley as you do-if thats the case then let them come out and say it themselves if that is true, rather than you try to bring them into the debate.

17 Oct 2008 by BC

Hi Lee, hope you are well. I do not want to contradict myself, i stated it was my final say on the subject so i am not prepared to debate any further.
However i will clarify the points you raise out of courtesy as a reply to fair questions.
1, PC team have there own opinions on everything obviously and I am only saying having spoken to them through correspondence or verbally they agree the one specific point i stated-
i.e.-"wembley did not go into this blindfolded or in haste, they had several years to budget for and find correct solutions. They were also acutely aware of what event schedule they were going to have."
As for anything else i said it is entirely my opinion and not that of pc team, for there opinion you will have to ask them.
2, Regarding (offering an explanation of going forward) giving solutions on a forum would be somewhat stupid given that my occupation is basically giving stadiums/pitches solutions. There is plenty of good advice exchanged on pc and its one of the many excellent parts of the site but many of us on here hope to get paid for giving advice/ consultancy its our living dont you agree? So in this respect i cannot say anything further so it really is not a question of talking a good game is it.
3, Re CLF Yes exactly! I said the situation was not good enough to the world instead of lying my ass off. A refreshing change hey?
4, finally the fact you said "than people already think" tells everyone everything they need to know.
Also just to clarify i wont post back any further on this subject so as to spare people our never ending exchanges which they would be given that we appear not to agree on very much at all dont you agree!

I intend to live forever, so far so good...

17 Oct 2008 by Leeboy

No I dont!!!