13 Sep 2006 by Mal Last edited 13 Sep 2006
Out of interest, I was wondering what dates you green keepers out there were able to close their green for the season. We close ours the last week of September which I think is a little late considering that some clubs I guess have the option to play inside from the beginning of September??? If you are replying to this post please state the area you are in and the date you close your green. It could be interesting to see an emerging picture of closing dates and regions.
Geography is everywhere
13 Sep 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 13 Sep 2006
Hi mal
It`s always possible to close down surfaces later down in the south of england as temps are always a few degree`s warmer down there than in the north
Although still a late close means you could have little time for establishment if the weather does turn - which let`s face it the UK weather is so unpredictable !!
This may limit how aggresive you can be with scarification and, more 'finer' species may struggle to establish before the onset as optimum temps are needed for succses
Personaly i feel late sep is too late but at times it`s out of our hands !!!
Have you considered pre-germinating your seed mal ?
thanks
13 Sep 2006 by Mal Last edited 13 Sep 2006
Hi Anthony
I totally agree, I always used to think that I had it easy when I was in Kent with the weather. Although I do remember experiencing a couple of harsh winters (Snow six feet deep one year). But since moving up to west Surrey, my experiance is that the Thames corridor has it's own micro climate and appears to be worth an extra two to three weeks on Kent at the end of the season. Even so I still think that the end of September/begining of October is late for closing a green.
My question was designed I hoped to paint a picture of green closure dates around the country and how that effects establishment before going into the dark months.
I have pre germinated seed before but have never realy thought that at the time of autumn renovations, and being as I have been able to in the past get on the renovations August /September on cricket ,the extra week to be that crucial to establishement. so only used it for repairs to cricket ends to rapidly establish grass between matches.
Returning to the question of Bowls green closures - as you sugest, it would be best to ensure that regular verticutting and light scarifying during the season would pay dividends in allowing for a lighter scarifying for the rennovation of a green and therefore bring the green back into shape sooner for getting it through the winter. assuming that OM is under control and the green is clean before topdressing.
Geography is everywhere
Hi All!
I'm in Linclonshire and we shall close our bowls green at the end of next week!
All the serious stuff has finished and the better bowlers have moved inside, but "the committee" feels that the social bowlers should continue!
Having only moved up here last year it is proving very difficult to get them to see things differently - the attitude is that because "we have always done things this way, we see no reason to change"! Maybe they will have to change thier greenkeeper?
I know several other clubs where renovation will not start until well into mid-October.
Hope this paints some more of your picture......
14 Sep 2006 by Mal
Thanks jb. curious and interesting that the green committe feels that the social bowlers have a star role above the serious bowlers. I supose that this is their reward for giving way to fixtures during the season?
Geography is everywhere
I look after 2 crown greens in Lancashire and we are closing at the end of September. Hoping to start renovation first week in October weather permitting.
"I'm cheap, and nought but fashion; fling me away."
i look after a green in cheshire and i start my renovations on the 26th sept
thanks
dave bennett
14 Sep 2006 by Come on you Saints
st helens merseyside
our green closed last thurs.
scarified twice tue.
hollow tined wed.
supposed to topdress reseedand feed today but weather up to now against us will probablly do tommorow.
Generally last week of September, all work to start early October, Maidstone, Kent.
cheers Nigel
I live in Cumbria and we closed our green after play on Monday, 11th Sept, in order to give seed a chance, as we struggled last season and early in Spring to get it germinating. Last year we didn't overseed until the second week in October which proved to be too late. With it being a cold Spring we again struggled with seed germination due to the cold weather, so we have closed earlier this year to give it a better chance.
Scarification was done on Tuesday and we have solid tined three times in the past two weeks, We have also done quite a bit of levelling work with sand and we will finish off tomorrow by laying top dressing and overseeding.
Hi,
We have six greens on the Island the first will be closed from Monday 18th September then one or two per week with the last closing on Monday 2nd October. This allows us to move our machinery around to carry out the renovation programme.
Yes, we are lucky that we have slightly higher temperatures.
Steve
Jersey
17 Sep 2006 by Mal Last edited 17 Sep 2006
I'd say there was a two to three week gap emerged between greens closing down south compared to the northern climbs Thanks for the info guys
Geography is everywhere
Interesting that the Bowling Greens are nearly all closed whereas the County Cricket Clubs are still playing and so their Groundsmen can't start to shut down - regardless of latitude.?
GOGGA
I'd imagine that cricket is a little different to bowls 
You can renovate a cricket square in parts, just leaving the tracks that are still required until last. I'd imagine that it's a real pain to do it that way but it could be done.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
18 Sep 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 18 Sep 2006
Hi john
Some cricket counties don`t (and can`t) finish untill the back end of september which is late but because all TOP LEVEL cricket squares have a botanical composition of perennial ryegrass (and as expected a small % of poa - again more thorough managed wickets with have MINIMAL amounts) so esablishment can be very quick ie days if the seed is exposed to excelent condition`s for succsess
However more 'finer' species realy do need to be sown in the optinum of condition`s ie late aug and early sep providing moisture is available so having a late finish when dealing with these species may make it difficut!!
In this case the 'density or take' may not be ideal going into the winter period and you`ll be playing 'catch up' in the spring and in situation`s where they want to be on there playing a early as possible, this`ll again put pressure on you to provide results as soils take time to warm up thus germination is quite inconsistent and irratic
Going into the spring 'sparse' areas ie lack of sward density will be an ideal establishment sites for moss,weeds and ofcourse AMG
Moss is there because of poor grass growth and not the cause of it!!
Some clubs have to realise that an earlier finish would benefit everyone (but you try telling them that!!!)
Thanks
18 Sep 2006 by GaryA
I look after a green in Preston as well as my 'proper' job and the green closes this week. The final competition was last Saturday (16th) and the renovation work will be done next weekend (23rd).
We are scarifying, vertidraining, overseeding, feeding and topdressing.
This is the end of my first year with this club and they tell me thye want to play in a floodlit league next autumn, given that the green has closed "early" this year to allow the renovation work necessary. Oh joy!
Be Just and Fear Not
Perhaps they'd like to spend the extra income, generated from the floodlit league, on germination sheets big enough to cover the whole green.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
18 Sep 2006 by Anthony Asquith
Hi gary
Autumn floodlit league !!! Don`t like the sound of that!!!
18 Sep 2006 by Mal
sounds like a springboard for an argument to have the green open even later????
Geography is everywhere
19 Sep 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 19 Sep 2006
GaryA
The problem is that how can you prepare for the following season properly if there`s been insufficient time available to carry out essntial end of season renovation work !!
Individual`s still don`t understand that in order to produce excelent surfaces, particular attention need`s to be payed to such tasks such as renovation
Obviously your commitee don`t understand this!!
How can anyone expect 'miracles' closing at the back end of autumn and expecting to play early spring - which is becoming the 'norm' these days ie close late - open early !
Good luck (but it`ll prob fall on 'deaf ears'!!)
19 Sep 2006 by GaryA
It will feel like I'm going to be back at Myerscough giving one of my "relentless, boring" lectures come next season when the [inevitable] arguing, sorry, 'discussion' starts.
Most of the committee appreciate that the green needs a break and that operations need to be done although to some, they see the green in such decent nick for this time of year and think that it's fit to go on for another month. To be fair it probably is but we all know that the sward needs time to recover and indeed for the seedlings to germinate etc etc if the surface is to be as good next season
At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, the green has never been in as good a condition according to the members, many of whom have been bowling there for 30 years plus. Whilst this is great, I am a victim of my own success in a way as they see the improvement already and automatically think that this means the green is good enough to play on til the end of October. Couple this together with the £6/700 or so being spent on renovations (that Richard Sharrock of Danvic Turfcare is a good egg, you know!) and some of them think they have a divine right to play til whenever they want next back end. Oh, Bugger!
All part of the fun, eh
Be Just and Fear Not
Our green is in north wales and i plan to close the green on sunday 24th september ,immediately after our open singles on the same day.
Not interested in what the social bowlers of the club have to say as they don't lift a finger to help in the season!
some of them were that stupid,they even bowled across me as i mowed............muppets! 
Im in the County Durham area. The Bowling Greens that i look after are run by the local council. This year they have decided to close them on the 22 September 2006. We will be starting the close season renovation work on the 25 September 2006.
The problems i have arn' t really with the close season renovation work, but with the pre-season work. As the council dosn' t instruct the company that i work for to start the work till late. Therefore there is hardly time to get things done before the green opens to the Bowling Clubs and the general public.
So this then brings loads of complaints from bowlers moaning on the condition of the green. Asking us why cant`t we start on them earlier. I have got that sick of them going on so i just say " Ring the Council ".
I can`t believe that some bowls games as mentioned on this message board go on into the month October. There again i have come to believe that bowlers are capable of anything...... lol.
I look after 2 crown greens (at the same club) and some of the bowlers want to keep one of the greens open all year round.(Thankfully opposed by the greens committee. So far.....)
"Won't do it any harm" is what I keep hearing.
Any thoughts, chaps? (You can probably guess what my view is!)
"I'm cheap, and nought but fashion; fling me away."
10 Oct 2006 by Anthony Asquith
Hi
It`s very very difficult to keep a surface in excelent condition without windows of oppertunity to do essential renovation and maintenance
I belive it`s an absoulute crazy idea!
But again convincing the 'powers that be' that is another story..!
thanks
hmmm, many golf clubs are open all year round.
Essential maintenance and renovation absoltuely must be carried out but I'm sure there would be a way to work it so that the greens remain in use for the majority of the year.
With the British weather you'd have some very very soggy bowlers during the winter though.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Hi chaps, as a golf course manager keeping his course open as near 365 days a year as possible I have never quite understood why bowls stops for winter. I know most of you guys do a magnificent job, working on a shoe string with lots of volunteers doing the work, but is it just down to money, or is it just a tradition that bowls stops for winter with the excuse that it stops for maintenence. Don't get me wrong I am not having a go. Just interested to find out the reasons. Would love to have both my golf courses shut for the winter but unfortunately I would be lynched!
Regards
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
Chris just think of how much time is spent on the green in a round of golf, then think of how much time is spent on the green in a game of bowls
Plus the size of the ball, or bowl,wood as in this case plus
barn wallis bowlers do enough damage in the growing season, winter months....
cheers
See it from a playing aspect, in golf you can still have a good putting surface during the winter, but with bowls trying to play with a heavy bowl sinking in damp lush grass will be totally different than the lateral growing sward & dry firm greens you get in the summer!
The required green for golf and bowls are different. Try rolling a bowling ball across a golf green and you will see!
So it looks like if you want to keep a bowling green open all year (with some interesting maintenance challenges) you're going to need to put a bubble over it.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Ok then guys, what is the difference between a bowling green and a golf green, apart from the fact that a bowling green is level and you doesn't suffer from pitch marks. Bigger area than the adverage golf green has less players over it in a day and all the traffic is not concentrated in to one area. eg the hole.
Just trying to get my head around it!
Regards
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
Ok, Presuming we are not talking about pure Creeping Red Fescue. Its all about friction and weight of ball. As you know most good golf greens are dense true and smooth, we verti-cut, brush and groom (a lot) to stand the grass up so our little white balls roll over the tip of the plant. Whereas a good bowling green has an open sward with lateral growing conditions this is because the heavy bowl will run faster over lateral growth.
Dense, vertical growing conditions will grip on to the bowling ball creating more friction as the weight of the bowl will sink into the sward (apparently)
I hope I make sense! Maybe a bowling green expert can shed some light.
Regards
Paul
we have no option , but to close our green at the first week in october, as this is when the pensioners league finishes.So to-morrow (16th.Oct.) all hands to the pumps,last week we scarified in two directions and treated for fusarium, Now we have to hollow tyne ,top dress, and overseed in one day. Fortunately the weather at the moment is in our favour.
next season will revue the pensioners fixtures at the beginning of the season, and if they are at home atthe end of the season, try and get the fixture reversed, and close the green that bit earlier.
Quite frankly chaps the reasons for not playing bowls outside over the winter period are many.
Here are just a few.
Switching the green before playing (worms).
constant cleaning of woods.
green constantly on the 'heavy' side so woods travel much straighter to the jack thus much less skilful and enjoyable game.
nights are not light enough so could only play at weekends or retired.
As for cutting the green you have to remember that 99.9% of bowls clubs do not employ a full time greenkeeper so when conditions do allow for cutting there might not be anybody available to cut it. So long grass = poor surface = unenjoyable,aching arm game.
There is no competitions to aim for over winter.
Due to the softness of turf over the winter period unless you have a perfect delivery the green is sure to 'cut' up and create extra work for the more important start to the 'real' season.( Its akin to playing a wedge off the putting surface, not nice chris!)
+ ITS BLOODY COLD!!!
This is why we move indoors from oct to april where there is many local,county and national comps to enter + the surface is consistent and available from early morning to late at night 7 days a week and you can have a pint without shivering.
I hope this gives some insight from a bowlers point of view.
Cheers!
Jazzman.
Jazzman, thank you, thats all I wanted. A straight answer as to why you don't play bowls in the winter! Pitty we could not convince golfers to do the same!
Regards
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
16 Oct 2006 by Pitchcare Peter
Tricky to play golf indoors though Chris :)
16 Oct 2006 by Mal
I don't know............You could try a shot at virtual golf which I understand is very good, inside and with the possibility of nipping of between holes to fill the glass. Not like a real course having a long walk back to the bar at the 18th each time to refill the beer glass.
Geography is everywhere
You guys might jest. When we were shut down for a month due to the foot and mouth outbreak a chipping putting contest was held around the clubhouse. The winner was the first to chip into an upright, empty golf bag standing next to the bar! I think there are still a few divots in the carpet!
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
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