Message Board - Football: Weed killer mix into lime
20 Jan 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
Hi Folks,
we have a straight forward wet line marker, the wheel to wheel type, any help would be useful, what is the best weed killer i can mix into the lime to make sure of future lines being present next time we need to mark the pitch.
cheers
Paul
20 Jan 2007 by Steve63
Don't use weedkiller, use good quality marking. It should stay on grass far longer than it will on bare soil.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
20 Jan 2007 by jlawrence
you could possibly mix a growth retardant in which along with a good quality marker might make them last a bit longer.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
20 Jan 2007 by Steve63
jl,
at least one of the companys sell a prepared mix like this,
might be RT's premark.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
20 Jan 2007 by Leeboy
Try brushing up on the health and safety aspects first-lime has been banned from being used to marking pitches for years.
20 Jan 2007 by donals
Paul,
A serious legal case occurred somewhere in Wales due to this at a amateur rugby club. A young guy got infected by the lime and sued the club which was run by amateur/volunteers. The secretary of the club was libel and sued for 10's of thousands.
So as Lee said brush up on your health and safety.
20 Jan 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
i call it lime but it is actually the legal stuff, we dont have full time groundsman so it gets done when we can, but the lines tend to dissapear after time, and it means we have no guide lines
20 Jan 2007 by Steve63
Lime!!
I remember helping to unload an artic every year of snowcal, powdered lime, talk about homepride men. It was bloody awful, not much better to use either.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
20 Jan 2007 by Grassman2011
Am i not right in thinking that you have to be PA1/6 certified mix weedkiller with anything? Also, where would you find the actual mixing spec?
20 Jan 2007 by MrC
Adding weed killer to kill the grass!!! Am i missing something here
20 Jan 2007 by Steve63
As jlawrence suggested you can use growth retardent rather than weedkiller, also try mowing out the lines with a small rotary to show you the general lines.
Please feel free to make up a popular saying at this point involving the words - eggs, suck and granny.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
20 Jan 2007 by sipho
1) Weedkiller would not suffice as it will only kill the weeds - will work if you are playing on a pitch of weeds (lol) - Total herbicide is what you need. Spraying cert will be required. I would tend to steer away from it (IMO)
2) How about Planting some Carrots in certain spots therefore you will be able to pull a string line accross the 2 points and mark you line. This would also help when you come to mark out the pitch next year as there would be no need to measure again just find the carrots.
These can be purchased from pc.
We tend to find that the red ones are the best.
http://www.pitchcare.com/shop/product.php?id=6618
Cheers Sipho
Gogga International Affairs Officer
20 Jan 2007 by taffy Last edited 20 Jan 2007
hi paul im guessing that ur club doesnt have the money to mark out every week using expensive line marking paint?? as is the case with many of the clubs that i do work for, as money is a luxury. I use a chemical called finale, which is a total herbicide the grass is burnt off but does recover by the end of the season if the area is mulit use for example the lines do dissapear. I know this is not ideal and i do not like doing it but it is the only way that some clubs can have lines on there pitches week in week out! but as the other guys have said you need to be pa1, 6 qualified to use this. So i would suggest finding a local contractor that maintains sports pitches in your area and maybe they can help.
20 Jan 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
cheers taffy
21 Jan 2007 by overstone
I would strongly advise against using a total herbicide.
When I worked for the local council a good few years ago
we had to mix Gramoxone with the whitening it killed the grass but it unstablised the soil and in the dry times the
ground cracked and became bigger throught out the summer,and if not filled in and seeded they would remain
into the next season and become a danger to the players.
Mike
21 Jan 2007 by Steve63
Mike we still do this, and I hate it. Some of the lines are now so old they have deepened to become hazardous and you are right about the summer and the cracking open of the soil.
The trouble with our lads is, "well, we have always done it this way"
Gggrrrrr.....
I understand why it is done with regard cost, I just dont agree with it
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
22 Jan 2007 by kebgarden
The local primary school my son went to last year has had weed-killed marks fot years put in by the council on a contract. Last summer the field had to be closed after a broken ankle where there had been cracking in the drought. The school has got no-where with the council getting it repaired though I had advice from you guys. The field cannot be used for matches with a ref. who knows anything.... it's usually just teachers and parents who don't!!
The mow the line, put in Carrots and long-lasting paint works very well at,say, Abingdon Rugby Club run by volunteers on council land. and does not require certs.
Caroline
22 Jan 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
ok, then any advice on what dry lining powder is best, we have just been given a dry lining machine, its good but the lines dissapear after a few days even more so when it has rained
22 Jan 2007 by taffy
fleet line markers sell dry line powder paul, its about £6 a bag i think. That stuff is ideal if the lines are burnt out and after time you will build up a white line. With regards to the burning of lines, The chemical that i suggested has been and is the only one that is reccommended for use in the preparation of line marking. This is because it is not as harsh as Gramoxone used to be and it grows out by the end of the season. plus hasnt gramoxone been banned for this use?? not sure i hate the stuff i know that much!
23 Jan 2007 by sheldonbonner
I think that it is now illegal to add a total weedkiller to a mix but i would stand corrected.
There are products on the market, but think about it this way, what do we actually apply the marking to - Grass - if you total weedkill = no grass, the marking will wash away easily and if wet will turn to mud very easliy, its difficult to apply marking to mud.
Heres what we do and it is very effective, we use Fleet super C paint and use the first mix strong i.e.3-1 then after that we over mark at around 8-1 or 9-1
But here is the rub, we cut the actual lines of the pitch shorter than the rest of the pitch weekly until the growing season stops with a pedestrian rotary mower and we have 8 soon to be 12 pitches to a height of around 1" the grass is strong as all nutrients are going to a shorter leaf blade.
We find that the markings hold longer and are clearer once marked as the paint has a leaf blade to stick to, this may seem labour intensive but there are ocassions when we have not had to remark a pitch for at least 2 games.
I am also going to try tests with a growth retardant with the intentions of spraying the lines for the next season so we have to do less cutting but i hasten to add we will be testing on banking that is a night mare to maintain but the product has been used on golf tees for example with good effect.
I hope this helps get back to me for further information.
the difference between dreams and accomplishments is purely desire.
25 Jan 2007 by taffy
I agree with your comments there, but when money is tight some clubs cannot afford to go for this option. But in the ideal world we do the same as you have stated above. some clubs just do not have the finances to use super c and cut lines regularly. unfortunate i know but reality
26 Jan 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
Taffy, your spot on with your comments, as we are just an amateur club, its volunteers and players who do what they can on the playing surface, and to be fair we dont have the knowledge that some of you guys have, so any help is a godsend, we have inherited a dry line marker which works well although the lines tend to fade after a day or two. so any advice on dry powder would be grateful.
26 Jan 2007 by shaka
hi all
Paul I stand to be corrected as sheldon above I believe it is not legal to apply chemicals in the marking mix whether it is fulid or powder. COULD PITCH CARE PUT SOME LIGHT ON IT!!! I also believe apart from rigby taylor or maybe linemark uk where they put the growth retardant in the product which you would buy and spray through a line marking sprayer. I also believe apart from the formention machine there is no FEPA aproved applicator ie sprayer.
I also have seen the sad and very dangerous results of council lazy lining methods. I have as above seen very large 3 to 4 inch trenches formed buy the killing of the grass
H&S should have a look at this subject. I recon it reflect the making of money from the contractor side! the council tell the contractor they want lines they dont specify the colour that save money on time and product. Standard setting is needed. Paul there are product and tools that used correctly will long term save you loads of money. go into the pitch care shop fleet kombi with the right paint will allow u to make a good line at a very good price per mark.
26 Jan 2007 by panch
The rigby taylor marking paint is called preline and it contains Glyphosate which is a total herbicide NOT a growth retardent. Glyphosate is the active ingredient of many total herbicides such as roundup etc. and will kill all grass and weeds root and all therefore unless you oversow the lines they will stay forever or at least till the weeds germinate in the bare soil. Gramoxone (containing PARAQUAT) was used in the past and when used correctly it would only kill the grass plant and not the root therefore allowing the line to grow out in the spring. Unfortunately most local authorites will not allow its use and personally I would not be comfortable with 5 litres of it in my pesticde store to use only 10 millilitres burning my pitch in each year
26 Jan 2007 by sheldonbonner
Taffy no one understands the concept of lack of funds better than i - i have worked at many grounds where money was tight and helped in my sparetime at various grounds where part time help is the norm.
i assure you that if you can afford to use ANY marking paint at all not just Fleets - and you dilute at the correct rate you can save money and 1- 10LTR tub is much easier to store than bags of whitening.
I appreciate you cannot necessarily cut the lines in each week it was merely a suggestion to help.
The only piece of advise i would press is DO NOT add weed killer to you mix.
A) You mark to grass not soil
B) I am still convinced it is not legal
good luck to you whichever way you choose and i hope i can help in the future.
the difference between dreams and accomplishments is purely desire.
26 Jan 2007 by jlawrence
glyphosate is only a total herbicide above a certain application level. I wouldn't have thought of it as a growth retardent, but it can certainly be used for things other than as a total herbicide.
I use a dry liner for our boundary markings on the cricket pitch. yes it disappears completely within a week at times - which for me is useful. It is fairly cheap stuff, but it takes up quite a bit of storage space. I couldn't imagine using it on the likes of a football pitch - you'd be forever overmarking - and I'd imagine that it would work out quite expensive over a season.
Paulhope: Marking paint IS more expensive to buy, but that doesn't mean that it's more expensive to use. It's the cost over the season that matters - and once watered down you'd be amazed how far marking paint actually goes.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
26 Jan 2007 by amateur
Lime might be banned ,but as soon as we get a lack of rain (about 2 weeks) the only grass doing well on the football pitch are the areas which used to be marked out with lime when it was a rugby pitch some 15 years ago. What does this indicate?
27 Jan 2007 by taffy
i agree with comments on the marking paint and at most the clubs i mark out for i prefer to use marking paint as you say there are a number of companies supplying such products. however if a dry line marker is what you have to use you have to use dry line powder. If used regularly onto a burn line the chalk power builds up and there is a line showing all the time. And sheldon i love to see the lines cut with a nice bright white line showing on match day. theres nothing better for me!
on the topic of using chemicals, finale is passed for this purpose however you may not be allowed to mix it with the paint. You can use a dye to show where you have been. this works well for me through my kombi sprayer.
9 Feb 2007 by Anonymous
a few points
weedkiller may or may not be illegal but it works to stop you losing the lines - I use Pathclear - 1 sachet per line marker full. Use one that deactivates whenever it contacts soil to protect players
I reckon line marking paint is a rip-off and get just as good results with white emulsion - get the offers in B&Q!
carrots are good idea - make your own from rope and sunken pegs if you cant afford them
if you are worried about weedkillered lines being compacted move them a few inches every season - obviously cant do thei with goal lines
10 Feb 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
thanks for all your feed back ! in the end we did use a weed killer mixed in with the white lining powder, the weed killer was recommended by our local garden centre, it didnt kill the grass as such, but left the grass with a pale yellow marking which is clear enough for us to to be able to mark the pitch in straight lines ! the product we used was safe and eviromentaly friendly and not harmful to children or animals wants dissolved, so it says on the tin, but to be fair it has worked effectively, pitch is still soaking from rain and snow so our next job is to try and sort out the drainage !!!
10 Feb 2007 by fidget
I thought you were trying to wind people up & I didn't want to be the first to bite.
It is totally illegal to add non -approved substances to white line marker,
As for B&Q white emulsion!
I'll leave the long answers to the more experienced, eloquent others who can type using more than one finger.
10 Feb 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
It was -an approved substance, as recommended by the gentleman in his 50s in our local garden centre, apparently it is used at most of the sporting venues in the area.
10 Feb 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
It was -an approved substance, as recommended by the gentleman in his 50s in our local garden centre, apparently it is used at most of the sporting venues in the area.
10 Feb 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
It was -an approved substance, as recommended by the gentleman in his 50s in our local garden centre, apparently it is used at most of the sporting venues in the area.
10 Feb 2007 by fidget
Paul,
Sorry I didn't read the thread properly and I thought it was you that had used pathclear & white emulsion.
What approved chemical did you add?
10 Feb 2007 by Steve63
more choice of colours with emulsion, and you can get matt, silk or hardwearing gloss finish.
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
10 Feb 2007 by fidget
Is that applied with a roller or a drag brush?
And don't forget to sand it first!
10 Feb 2007 by overstone
Mose cricket groundsmen that I know mark their creases
with a cheap white emulsion paint it works very well in our summer conditions but do not use a masonery paint it leaves a stain on the grass.
11 Feb 2007 by bendove
Wickses white emulsion you know it makes sense!!!
ben
12 Feb 2007 by Barry Pace Last edited 12 Feb 2007
Paint and Weedkiller.......... Legal or not i HATE it...
Proper Line Marking Paints are not really expensive if you get the ratio right if diluted, they dont kill the grass but it is a lil bit more work when the grass is growing fast.
And there is nothing worse as a contractor and a referee as seeing a muddy mess that extends out up to a foot plus where wear is most with a scabby line through the middle.
many places have a H&S issue with cracks and sinkage.
DONT DO IT BUY THE PROPER PAINT FOR THE JOB
BUY THE CARROT MARKERS FOR THE CORNERS IF YOU CAN
GET THE STRENGTH RATIO RIGHT AND THE LINE WILL LAST LONGER
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
12 Feb 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
I see your point Barry, but its all down to time, we are an amateur club, most players and club members work, and we do not have a groundsman so the only time they get to mark the pich is the hours before kick off, money is tight so we have to compromise Im afraid.And in the middle of winter trying to find washed out lines is a nightmare. But I do like the idea of the carrots though, so it may be an idea next season.
12 Feb 2007 by Anonymous
The Growth reulator Mazide(Maleichydrazide).Vitax/Supaturf have details on the use through there TXE machine to reduce marking out. It inhibits grass growth but keeps root structure. I have seen excellent results and it works out very economical.
13 Feb 2007 by Barry Pace
Now that idea is better..........................
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
23 Feb 2007 by Sonic
Hi guys
The truth is that if you can afford to mark out with a dryliner you can afford to mark out with quality marking paint at 1 3rd less the cost per pitch marked. you will use approx 1 hole bag of dry lineing compound as suggested at approx £6.00 per bag per pitch and you have to use loads to get an eventual build up!
With paint it is approx £4.00 per pitch marked or even less if diluted right.
As for marking with weed killer in the powder thats a first !and if its worked with out loosing the sward then great, but I still think you need MAFF approval to mix the two together.
Burning in lines has been done for years and years but with todays technology in paints it is not best to open up the surface where a line is going to be marked to bear soil at any cost.
If you think about it soil is made up of very small particles that you are trying to coat with a cover of white or colourd paint . they have very little surface area to cover and the surface then becomes even more pourous and moves easily even with rain hitting them let alone players and linesmaen running on then.
That is why white lines do not last on soil it just washes through quickly making it costly.
Grass has a larger surface area to be able to cover and for the paint to stick to, and lasts 4 times longer,
Finale as mentioned above is not systemic if used right it will only tinge the grass light brown but leaving the root to re-grow but still hold the soil together and provide structure but also it is MAFF approved for mixing in the white stuff if anyone really feels the need to still burn in.
My advice to you paul is to contact a reputable linemarking company and get proper advice from them for free, some of them know what they are talking about and will show you the most economical way to do your marking with lines that last.
Sorry to go on a bit and late in the chat but hope this helps.
Cheers
23 Feb 2007 by panch
sonic
think you should find a new supplier for your powder mate. I'm paying £3.50 a bag +VAT
8 Apr 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
panch, where do you get your powder for 3.50 a bag, we are paying nearly a tenner !!! name or brand please !!!
8 Apr 2007 by rooster69
paul, i ve read this post for a while and can't understand why people are still using powders. it is the most un cost efficent thing on the market. i can say this because idid the maths 2 years ago when i took over at my football club.
i have 7 pitches and using powder it took 3 hours to mark and 3 bags so in theory it cost £13.50 + £30 to mark out a week, however if it rained i had to do 3 times a week which equals £29.50 + £90 a week, i put this forward to the commitee and came back with these figure for going over to liquids, i use 1 can of linemark premier line, it cost 19 pounds a can, i use it a 1litre of paint to 7litres of water, a can lasts between 3 -4 weeks, i only mark out junior pitches once every 2 weeks. it now costs the club a month to mark the pitches around £25 for paint and £125 to mark out, it cost them that for 1 week with powder on a wet week, so i urge to have a look at going over to liquids, it will save you a lot in the long term. if you still want to leave a visable mark for a while linemark also do a liquid called preline and it grows out after 12 weeks. linemark,fleet are probally the best 2 to look at.
8 Apr 2007 by Rob Bradshaw
same with us mate on huntingdonshire district council we now use the kombi, we have over 200 bags of snowkal just sitting in our shed
8 Apr 2007 by Maesglas Football Club.
rooster you aint seen our pitch, when its wet its WET, so the dry marker does us great, and i only go round the pitch once, and it leaves a suitable line, and the bag does us for two games, not sure what machine ours is (see pic) but it has diferent settings so we can use it economically, so thats why i would like to know where "panch" gets his powder from.
8 Apr 2007 by rooster69
try fleet, i was quoted about 4.50 a bag, some of the amenity companied still sell it. i live near needham market in suffolk where most of the chalk comes from for marking compounds may be worth ringing needham chalk direct, looks like your marker is a sisis.
http://www.needhamchalks.co.uk/html/contact_us.html
9 Apr 2007 by panch
Paul i get most of my materials from Dave Hodgson in Leeds just looking at his latest price list and its £4.25 per bag but he'll normally give some discount for bulk buys ie 20 bags will give him a ring and find out what brand it is later.
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