Hi All ,
I am browsing through the lawn expert( Dr D G Hessayon) and it states on page 6 and 43 that autumn is the only time to scarify , NEVER spring .Ill be honest and show my lack of experience , but i thought both seasons were as good as each other . Id be interested in others views.
Thanks , Jude.
5 Mar 2007 by jlawrence Last edited 5 Mar 2007
I wouldn't want to do deep scrification (linear aeration) in the spring, but I can't see anything at all with carrying out 'normal' scrification.
My guess would be that he's assuming you'll be top dressing and leveling after scarifying, so autumn is best as you get the nice wet weather (in theory anyway) afterwards to aid germination. Plus soil temperatures are usually still high so the grass can recover quicker from the stress of scarifying.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
6 Mar 2007 by MrC
Hi Anon,
Dr Hessayon puts the complete world to rights in about 60 pages and for £5.99 you too get to be an expert. As you no doubt can see from these pages, there is a wealth of information on this site, from all sports. You need to read these threads and perhaps put more information into your question, for example, what are you scarifying, domestic lawn, domestic franchise operation, cricket wicket, football pitches, they all have slightly different answers,
As a domestic contractor, I scarify in spring, as well as autumn, if necessary.
Im back baby!
Deep scarifying i.e. thatch removal to be done in Autumn but with enough time in the season left for recovery. Spring time I would suggest is for lighter grooming and verticutting to prepare surfaces for the seasons play. Remember that not only does the sport dictate what you do, but also the type of grass that you have growing, meadow grass doesnt mind scarifcation, Fescues dont really like it. Thats a fine turf perspective anyway.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
7 Mar 2007 by davtar01 Last edited 7 Mar 2007
I think you will find that this book is a bit like goverment policies......OUT OF DATE!!!!!
A lawn expert (and i am one, honestly) would take one look at this book and laugh. Just need to check what sort of basic information is in there. I have been in turf for 30 years and never heard abour Dr Hess.....?? apart from his books....on plants and such like.
The weather and practices have changed dramatically as well as the products used. His book however, has not.
Have you ever seen a turf expert derived from a gardener?? Just watch Alan Titch and see how quick and easy it is to spruce up your lawn!!!! Scratch with a rake, throw some spring feed down and .....well if i had known it was that easy!!!!!!?????????
7 Mar 2007 by Steve63 Last edited 8 Mar 2007
I started out 28 years ago as an apprentice amenity gardener but went back to college 7 years later to specialise in turf. It is possible to have foot in both camps and to have a wider experience can be very useful.
People who watch gardening programmes are usually more interested plants than turf so it tends to get a cursory mention at best, once in the soring and again in the autumn.
As for the name.... the only time I see the name Hess is when somebody spells my name wrongly!
Regards
Steve (HesK)
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
Thanks Guys , your views are much apriecieted.
Jude.
7 Mar 2007 by mickjm
Steve63..........Question?
I was at college with one Steve Hesk. Myerscough, 1986-89. Are you he?
No Fork handles....Handles for forks!!
My point was not to say that you cannot have a camp foot! a foot in both camps, merely that there are lawn experts out there. Dr Hesayon in my opinion is certainly not even close! And its sad that this is supposedly???? one of the better lawn books out there??????
davtar01,
How long before you update us all with your own book?
It sounds as if you could fill a hole in the market.
I scarified today, to a depth of about 5-10mm, to clear thatch and moss from a lawn and provide a little tilth/slots for seeding. Just the job.
As part of my pre-season prep on the cricket square, I will use a thatch control reel flicking the surface plus a power brush, rather than deep scarify.
As Mr Lawrence says deep scarifying other than in Autumn is risky. The council deep-scarified one of our out-ground squares last Spring, (and at right angles !), to remove moss that hadn't been treated in Autumn. The surface disintegrated in the hot weather in July, it was like playing cricket in a sand pit.
7 Mar 2007 by MrC
Dr hessayon writes books on lots of different subjects, mainly for the american market, and written when the open university was using bbc2 in black and white during the night and before video recorders. we have moved on a bit since then. spend your money on more recent publications, and [back to a favourite of mine] make sure your franchise will give you proper, in depth training
Ive just sprayed with Fe for moss control and will scarify next week prior to overseeding, if I didn't scarify in spring half or more of my expensive outfield grass seed would be lost in moss
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Your'e damn right i could fill a niche` in the market!!
You seem to be missing the point about deep scarifying etc. Dr Hess talks about lawns not cricket wickets or even sports surfaces for that matter. He's not a lawn expert and for sure, definetly not a sports turf expert. Deep scaifying as has been mentioned is completely different on a lawn (what defines deep on a lawn??) than on a cricket wicket, for example.
At the end of the day, we do the basics now as we did back then, but very little else! His book was published??? and re-written???
Mr C,
Its only AFTER youve brought a franchise that you then realise that you havent recieved proper , in depth training.This is why i constantly look to self educate myself.The book in question is given to us and we are supposed to look on it as the bible!I was pretty sure his info re scarifying wasnt correct so i thouhgt id seek advice of people that do.
I should of been more precise in my opening question and stated that i deal solely with domestic lawns NOT sports surfaces.Once again , thanks to you and others who have expressed there views.
Jude.
The basics of looking after a sports surface and looking after a lawn are exactly the same.
Deep scarification is the same regardless of the surface (lawn or sports) your aim is to overtime remove major thatch problems. The depth is purely defined by the amount of thatch present.
If you're needing 'deep scarification' on any surface in spring then you've completely messed up your autumn renovations (imo). The whole point of scarifying in spring would be to remove the rubbish from the surface created over the winter months.
Whether 'deep' scarification is suitable (on a regular basis) on a lawn is another matter and would depend greatly on the type of lawn you're producing and hence the type of grass seed involved. In the majority of cases you wouldn't want to be removing all the thatch from a lawn - in that respect it has far more in common with a cricket outfield and nothing in common with a cricket square - no thatch makes for a solid (good looking) surface which would be mighty uncomfortable to stand on for any length of time.
Another thing, when the book was written there was no such thing as linear aeration when the book was written.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
8 Mar 2007 by MrC
Hi Jude,
I sympathise with your position, there are so many "take your money and sit back" franchises. try the lawn e book as sold in the shop here. oh, and stop being anonymous, it upsets the locals who might not then give you best advice
unusual having someone as anon who then puts a name at the bottom.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
8 Mar 2007 by MrC
You can make your own judgement on Dr Hessayon and his lawn book, you can get it on amazon for the staggering price of £2.86. or purchase one[or more] of his 15 other titles he has wriiten about in an expert capacity. Or better still give £2.86 to charity you will feel better.....
I'm sorry Mr L but i cannot see how a lawn is like a cricket outfield at all. Lawns vary from house to house, with soils grasses, mowing regimes etc. To maintain a lawn should not even involve deep linear aeration. If it does then they are probably getting and receiving bad advice. Lawns are so different also because unless you are a hoeowner/gardener, who is on site 24/7 then you cannot afford to be doing fixes like deep aeration. It involves a completely different method of management as opposed to basic scarifying. Sports pitches involve the preparation and use of a surface that is vital to its playability. A lawn, bottom line (unless a croquetetc) relies on merly being dense, cosmetic etc etc.
davtar01,
You really should write and publish that book. What depth of aeration do you recommend on a lawn, and at what cost?
Those lawn franchises will be very interested.
I couldn't write it as i am a turf expert not an author! (there's wit in there for all those franchise owners!!)
8 Mar 2007 by MrC
davtar01 [author in waiting]
You don't need to be a turf expert to write a book on the subject. you just need to have belief. you need to believe some idiot will buy your book, and if you are really lucky you could set up a new franchise operation. you just charge around £25k and give them Dr hesasayon, or your own book [hessayon is less effort], cool profit of £24,997.14 [and some poor s#ds seem to have been the victim of similar schemes]
8 Mar 2007 by mickjm
davtar01
I think maybe you're experience of 24/7 homeowner/gardener 'cared for' lawns is either limited or blinkered! Whilst I agree every lawn is indeed different the fundamental care of GRASS remains the same whether its a cricket wicket/football pitch or bowling green! How the applications are implemented is generally dictated by the 'lawn/grass'. My college training was in 'specialised turf science and sports ground construction' which, although 20yrs ago now is extremely helpful when caring and maintaning domestic 'grounds/lawns'. The principles are exactly the same just that sometimes they are perhaps harder to care for!! That might sound daft to you BUT specialised sports areas are exactly that and are cared for as such. 'Domestic' lawns require the same understanding of problems which arise yet its sometimes harder to resolve them. A Cricket wicket/outfield or Golf green is cultivated to NOT have the problems yet when and if they arise are dealt with, with far greater efficiency! So any 'normal' gardener has to know about these matters and implement correct remedies to be successful!
D.G.Hessayon is rather outdated tho' with all his books, and its NO wonder the franchisees are in need of help if thats their BIBLE. LOL
No Fork handles....Handles for forks!!
8 Mar 2007 by MrC
mickmjm
davtar01 is correct, you are not.
Thankyou Mr C, it seems strange that people harp on about basics being the same! I am sure i have not said any different??!!
If people read the post i am saying that you cannot treat (franchise or not) a lawn like a sports area. It would be great as a lawncare company to be able to put into practice exactly what we want to do, but it is not an affordable option to customers. My experience has led me to run some prestigious venues and i would love to do more and more but customers are our livelihood. They rule to a degree by what they want and can afford.
Mickjm, it seems to me that although you think i have a blinkered approach, most of what you say agrees with what i say??
Fundamentals are and never will change. You agree yourself that this book is like..........West Ham......toilet!!!
Sorry couldnt resist, but as i said earlier franchises are successful (unfortunately ) because they are run by businessman. Anyone can interprit the fundamentals until such times that they have to realise what they can and cant do with regards to such things as SCARIFICATION!!!
No wonder people post anonymously on here!Some franchisees , believe it or not , want to learn and value advice and comments from others. It appears a polite question regarding a statement in a book has turned into another "lets slag the franchise lot". The original post was a simple "what do others think about Dr Hess statements" , thats all !
Jude.
Hey Jude (sounds like a song)
I in other posts i have never slagged off franchises and never will. Its a big grown up world out there and free for all. Groundsmen will always slag off franchises due to the nature of the beast. People coming into the industry and pretending to know about grass. And you cant say that is not true. The lawn experts written all over the websites and vans etc. What about if all the inexperienced franchises went around with, 'we are not experts but are willing to try, please book with us'
I think this is why people will throw bad press at franchises.
I will never as i have no right to criticise as it is a business world. Experienced or not it is about making it pay.
Dont take it to heart!!
8 Mar 2007 by MrC
Hey Jude [sounds like a song]..I wanted to say that.
Don't take everything to heart here. Use it as the learning experience it should be. davtar01 is talking sense. Move on and learn not only about grass, but also about life. Mickjm has witnessed bad things with franchises, it annoys him, and it would/should annoy you, if only because of the longterm impact on our own businesses. Oh, and stop being annonymous. nobody knows who you are in Chester
davtar01 and mr c , Yeah your both right. sorry about my snappiness , ive had a hard days night!
Jude.
9 Mar 2007 by Poa7
The solution here is simple, there are a number of options to take:
1. Look at other lawn focused books such as the Lawn e Book (sold in the pitchcare shop) It does not matter how many years experience you have, reading a book never seen before will always bring up some points you have never thought of or refresh your memory. I agree that Mr Hess's book is a tad out of date.
2. Look and research the subject on the internet
3. Ask advice of fellow practitioners - as found here
4. Experiment yourself - though on your own lawn!
There is no such thing as deep scarification:
Scarify
Cut into the lawn with a knife and measure the depth of thatch present, you then scarify to that depth. Make sure your machine (engine) is man enough for the job and the blades are thick enough to cope also. Fertilise 1 week before-hand (preferably liquid - leave more time if using other fertiliser carriers) to ensure rapid recovery and water a plenty after (if ts going to be dry).
Or you
Verti-cut
Control the thatch, usually cutting about halfway into it. The baldes here can be closer together than for scarifying to pull more 'thatch' out per sq m
Or you
Groom
Lit the blades of the grass up, you may go a few mm's into the thatch layer.
Whatever you do always think
Why is the thatch so deep - am I over watering or over fertilising
What grass species are growing - creeping grasses (via stolons or rhizomes) always promote thatch increase
If I am to do two directions when doing the above go at 45 degrees.
Essentially, scarifying can be done at anytime (Apart from when the grass is dormant), so long as there is water applied afterward to aid recover
Thats the crutch of the matter I think. How do I know? I am the author of the Lawn e Book!! and I still read books to enhance my knowledge.
9 Mar 2007 by madscotman Last edited 9 Mar 2007
Hey Jude, mickjm is right in that domestic lawns are harder to care for. Why dont you have a look at an excellent website called www.chesterlawns.co.uk they seem to be real experts after all they are the biggest lawn care company in the world ..or reading between the lines the biggest franchising company in the world.............. 'we take your 20k and give you a copy of Dr Hess'
9 Mar 2007 by chrismitchell Last edited 9 Mar 2007
Poa7, have to so slightly disagree with your depth regarding verticutting. 2mm should be the max depth and grooming is 1mm below the height of cut normally ,so there is no contact with the thatch layer.
If there is no such thing as deep scarification, how come a standard scarifier will go into the thatch layer 5mm but then a Graden deep scaryfier penetrates 25mm plus?
Also I was taught many years ago that the most efficient way to scarify is by doing a second pass at 60 degrees.
Knew someone who spoke to Dr Hess. once. He aint no expert, he just writes books!
As a green keeper one of my pet hates is being asked to look at someones lawn for them. As an ealier post rightly points out, it might still be grass but that is where the similarity stops. Domestic lawns are a different ball game.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
A bit like when you find out you are talking to a doctor, Oh Iv'e got this pain, could you have a look at it please?
You don't have to go so deep if scarify more often, but if you do it once a year, do it at the start of Sept, in two directions@ 45degrees (I was taught 60) to a depth of 12mm-25mm depending on the severity of the problem, overseed and feed, then lift the height of cut and reduce frequency of cut to allow germinating grass to establish.
I do not even go 2mm deep Chris, I set up at 0 and that seems to take out a reasonable amount.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
9 Mar 2007 by Poa7
Hi Chris,
I hear what you are saying. Trouble is, that it is almost impossible to groom to a depth of 1mm only. Unless the surface you were grooming was a flat and true as a snooker table. Unlikely conditions I would imagine.
When I say there is no such thing as deep scarification, my point was that we can only scarify (to whatever depth require) verticut or groom, most assume scarifying and verticutting are the same. Perhas a better term would be to class all as 'Vertical mowing'
60 degrees sounds OK to me. I don't think there is an exact science to the angle so long as it it not 90 degrees.
Best regards
Phil Sharples
Sounds good to me Phil. Grooming can be very accurate with the state of the art stuff these days, but the only place you wil find such equipment is on a golf course. Never turn my groomers off on my greens triples, stands the grass up a treat. I must admit though I am not a fan of scarifying on putting and bowling surfaces. It tends to take out more good than bad ,and leaves the most perfect place for poa to germinate. Verticut gently yes on a regular basis. I know it is very important for the cricket boys but they are using the remnants of a sward as apposed to the sward. So often it is the underlying cause that is missed out on, eg. lack of aeration, poor construction, over feeding, overwatering etc etc. and only the symptoms are treated. There is no way in a million years that the owner of a domestic lawn would have the resourses and equipment that is at the hands of the golf anf professional football world. Besides which most of the equipment would not fit into your average semi in Surrey!
I think the biggest shock tactic with Mr DIY is when he wants advice on his lawn is ask him how do you propose to cut it? Just watch his face when you tell him it could cost up to £5000 for a decent mower! Alright Miss Rabbit, I know you are going to tell me that your mowers are much cheaper but even the price of your machines will frighten most off, as he offers you 3 shillings and sixpence for your advice!
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
I think you could talk all day about whether it is scarifying, verticutting, grooming etc but is all irrelative when it comes down to a domestic lawn. The majority of customers want there lawn scarified (because they think it needs it or you have advised them) and most will not pay for this more than once per year. Some quality lawns will do more especially one that has a keen experienced gardener.
Bottom line on domestic lawns is that you can call it what you like. The customer believes it is scarifying and does not care too much if its deep, shallow, linear.... you see my point.
This can only be decided by the lawn technician? who has advised this. This will be based on all normal fundamentals such as thatch levels, conditions.....i dont want to go on.
Anyway, going back to the original point, with franchises, the Lawn Expert book is probably quite advanced based upon there experience in turf. The e-book, i presume, is probably slightly more advanced and up to date and would possibly be too advanced for franchisees, even though they are the lawn experts, i mean the one's trying to learn!!
madscotmanm ,
I can see how you came to your conclusion , but thats not me!Spooky , though. I bet chesterlawns are over the moon with your sarcasim.
Jude.
2 Judes that know as much as each other, both bought franchises, and both own a copy of Dr Hess's book. Sounds like you could be living in a parallel universe........... what colour is the grass in your world, its green in ours!
9 Mar 2007 by MrC
Is it allowed to advertise ones book on here. I've got a few things I want to sell.....
madscotman,
i dont recall being abusive to you , just stating that you came to an incorrect conclusion.
Like i said in an earlier post , im just asking a question about a statement in a book !
Its funny really , that if an anonymous had posted your sarcastic , abusive reply , then i dare say other folk on here would be up in arms. I also wonder that ANY post by a franchisee would be ridiculed by some , for the simple reason that they are a franchisee !
Jude.
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