22 Apr 2008 by rmark
Hi Folks,
Whilst verti draining a pitch for a client. I have been stopped and tested for the use of red diesal in my tractor by customs & excise. Apparently I shouldn't be using red diesal because I have driven on the road to get to the site. Instead I should of been using white. The site in question is four miles away.
However I was led to believe that the type of work I am involved in (sports turf maintenace, grounds maintenance) came under the categories of agriculture and horticulture.
This is not the case as the friendly Customs & Excise man showed me that I came under the catorgory of working on recreational areas. Examples Sports clubs, schools and Golf courses.
I am now going to be investigated for using red diesal for the last three years.
So a warning to anybody out there using red diesal in tractors whilst driving them on the road be aware of the catergories that you may or may not fall into.
22 Apr 2008 by Nifty
Personally I think thats very harsh , all mowers and tractors should be allowed to use red , its not like everyone is going to buy Massey/JCB/FNH Tractors to travel to work or school is it ?
btw previous thread
http://www.pitchcare.com/message/message/9646
Its got to be purrrfect
It is my beleive that all council tractors/mowers are using red diesel in their machines, and on public roads ?
I believe that the difference for a council is that they own the land that they are cutting and ordinarily they will be traveling short distances (within limits of C&E) and therefore are not driving TO work, they are actually working and driving to the next piece of council owned verge a few hundered Metres away.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
Hi - I thought this was an interesting thread, and I am sorry to hear of your meeting with HMRC, it must be a big worry
I looked on the net and came across this Farmers Weekly question and answer which seems good
http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2006/06/08/91743/red-or-dead-your-red-diesel-questions-answered.html
In it says this
Can I take an agricultural sprayer, which is primarily used on the farm, to spray a sports field 40 miles away from the farm, running on red diesel? Can a second tractor take a bowser to fill the sprayer also on red?
Yes.
Spraying sports fields constitutes horticultural activity.
A second tractor used as described could use red for the same reason
Cheers Mike
23 Apr 2008 by mario Last edited 23 Apr 2008
I have read the article in its entirety and it throws up some interesting points.
As this is an area of concern to many of us on this site, would it be appropriate for a member of the Pitchcare staff to approach the author of the article for advice on our sports field situations? Indeed, perhaps to produce an article for the magazine? Or is there someone else out there who could share the knowledge and keep us legal?
I have tried our local DVLA office, Police and Customs & Excise office up here for a definitive answer on my situation whereby I borrow equipment from the university playing fields, a distance of 1.5 miles, whilst running on red. Horticultural site to horticultural site using the borrowed equipment for horticultural use.
Do I break the legislation? As I am getting three different answers from the aforementioned government bodies!
I know no boundaries.
23 Apr 2008 by mario
As an aside - I recall many years ago when my sister was dating a farm worker he used to take her out of an evening turning up at my parents house in his Massey Ferguson tractor wearing cowboy boots, checked shirt and stetson!
Out to the cinema, for a meal etc. I don't recall at any time him changing the filters and draining the system down in order to change to white!
Come to think of it he was a bit of a ....... (rhymes with stick).
I know no boundaries.
23 Apr 2008 by Aintgottaclue!!
i thought the law was clear, no vehicle used on the public highways was allowed to use red diesel, no matter what
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
23 Apr 2008 by rmark
Mario,
The customs man said to me that if you travel between sites on the road then you should be using white diesal all the time as the vehicle should be road taxed. My question was can i run on dual tanks white when on the job then change to using red on site, then back on white to run on the road.
Reply No.
He said my tractors if run on the road and taxed as an agricultural vehicle but not carrying out a horticultural, agriculture operation should be using white diesal. If I declare my tractors as sorn and not to be used on the road then I can run them on red on site. Which means transporting them by artic the maximum of a 10 mile radius for which I currently work.
He also mentioned that they have been catching farmers transporting stone, soil ect on the road which is not classed as an agricultural operation.
I will keep every one updated as the investigation continues as I have many questions to ask and try to establish some clarity on the situation.
23 Apr 2008 by Mal
I remember some years ago that we looked into this as we were having to cross a road in two situations in order to get to fields on the oposite side to carry out work. We were told at the time that we could use the tractor on the road if it was taxed as agricultural but the total milage on any one day must not exceed 3 miles. Luckely for me the local garage we used to fill up the gerry cans was about a mile away so we were ok there but I don't this I'd get away with transporting 4gerry cans in an open trailer these days somehow.
Geography is everywhere
23 Apr 2008 by mario
Perhaps I should have included in my earlier post that my tractor is insured and taxed as an agricultural vehicle.
I know no boundaries.
23 Apr 2008 by rmark
Mario,
What do you class as horticultural use,
In my own circumstances verti draining, overseeding, topdressing and grass cutting have not been reconised by the custom and excise as horticultural use.
Thankyou for all the support from everybody on the site much appreciated during difficult times.
23 Apr 2008 by mario
I don't class it as anything per se but this is from Wikipedia.
Horticulture (Latin: hortus (garden) + cultura (culture)) is the culture or growing of garden plants. Horticulture as classically defined is the subdivision of agriculture dealing in gardening, in contrast to agronomy, which deals with field crops and the production of grains and forage,[1] and forestry which deals with forest trees and products related to them.[2] Horticulturists work in plant propagation, crop production, plant breeding and genetic engineering, plant biochemistry, plant physiology, and the storage, processing, and transportation of fruits, berries, nuts, vegetables, flowers, trees, shrubs, and TURF.
Vertridraining, overseeding, top dressing and grass cutting as you say are not classified actions within the bounds of horticulture. So do Customs & Excise classify these activities as agriculture?
If not I would be interested to know from them into which category they fall. 'Cos up here they don't know!!
The nearest I can come to a definitive answer from them is - "If you are in doubt then drain, flush, change filters and run on white"
I know no boundaries.
Red Diesel – when is it legal?
Click the link http://www.farminguk.com/index.asp?show=newsArticle&id=7161
Hope this helps.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/
Use the search bar on top of page, some documents are only available for download only.
23 Apr 2008 by mario Last edited 23 Apr 2008
Thanks Aidan. "The use of red diesel ............. does not include the maintenance of recreational facilities"
Explains it all really?
Except.......Is it not the case that County Councils run on red when travelling from and to parkland, football pitches, rugby establishments, the maintenance of cricket outfields etc etc????
I know no boundaries.
23 Apr 2008 by sipho
So at an education facility its not a recreational activity its and educational activity???
Gogga International Affairs Officer
23 Apr 2008 by rmark
Mario
If everybody was classed on the same playing field (excuse the pun) I would not be feeling slighty cheesed off. However this doesn't seem to be the case.
Looks like I will have to look down the biodiesal road instead.
rmark..im confused.. what the f*** was customs doing on a playing field anyway... you were NOT breaking any laws while spiking... and they could only dip you if you were on the highway....contravening any such law
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
rmark sorry to be pain but its DIESEL 
23 Apr 2008 by rmark
Aidan mccabe
Thanks for the correction, no wonder I am the only one in the country to have been caught using diesal and not diesel.
Ticky 21,
Interesting comment, they said they followed me driving to the site, then pulled up just when I had started. They also informed me that they could dip me on site.
23 Apr 2008 by panch
dont assume the council boys get any favours, our local authority is three weeks behind because all there equipment is being cleaned to remove dye residue from tanks etc and will be using white in future. i know where ticky's coming from as our 2 contracting tractors also do the majority of our farm work. am i supposed to run them on white ? personaly im going to keep running on red, icant see the fine being anywhere near the cost of the ***kin fuel anyway.
24 Apr 2008 by vid
Using red diesel is not illegal on recreational use, thats not the point anybody with an untaxed diesel vehicle can use red diesel so long as they dont use the highway - not even to cross. Dedicated mowing equipment for mowing verges etc is exempt and can be used with red diesel, this does not include tractors with mounted mowers, they must run on white. I have a feeling that there is alimit also how far you can transport a tractor on the road with red diesel in it although I'm not so sure on that one.
what a bunch of bl**dy jobsworths we have in this country now - I thought the government was trying to support sport so why is it not included in horticulture - its just counter productive and I doubt the administration of it costs less than the tax gained
24 Apr 2008 by mario
As mentioned in a previous post - who in their right mind is going to fork out many thousands of pounds for a tractor to use it to do the weekly shop, run the kids to school....I could go on.
Point is - we all use them FOR WORK!!
I'm getting sooooo angry I'm beginning to see red!
I know no boundaries.
IIRC the distance you can travel between sites on red is 3km.
Dedicated grass mowers as vid says are exempt and can be run on red all the time - not sure what happens if you've 5 miles to drive it between sites though. BTW, rollers are also exempt.
If you never travel on the highway with the vehicle then you can put whatever the F you want in it.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
A few tears ago a policeman radar gunned me as I passed a speed trap in a tractor . Out of interest I stopped and asked why he had checked my speed as I was hardly going to be breaking the 30mph limit with a Ford 4630. His reply was, the maximum permitted speed for an agricultural vehicle is 21mph. Above that speed it has to be taxed a goods vehicle and run on white diesel. So now we can see where this problem is coming from with the advent of these fast trac vehicles. Assumably any tractor that now has to run on white diesel will have to be taxed as a goods vehicle. More coffers for our darling chancelor!
Now for a question. How does the rest of europe handle this situation or is their fuel all a standard price?
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
25 Apr 2008 by flegg
Go on the HM Revenue & Customs site, their brief,
Memorandum of Agreement in respect of the use of agricultural vehicles.
states:-
Activities not accepted as falling within the definition of agriculture, horticulture or forestry include:
The breeding, rearing or keeping of any creature for purposes relating to sport or recreation.
Dealing in agricultural, horticultural or forestry products.
Landscaping.
The maintenance of recreational facilities, including beaches.
Flood protection.
Peat or loam extraction.
The exploitation of wild animal or fish stocks.
Construction of buildings or other structures used for purposes relating to agriculture, horticulture or forestry.
Transportation of agricultural, horticultural or forestry produce, livestock, implements, inputs or waste, other than where this is incidental to an agricultural, horticultural or forestry operation being performed on the land. Accepted transportation uses are as set out under this agreement.
What they mean by recreational facilities is up to you to decide.
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