Message Board - Cricket: 'old trafford' construction
17 Jul 2008 by ken carroll
Hi all,
I would like to know more about an 'Old Trafford' square construction.
I have read 2 articles that refer to the gravel layer underneath and the special surrey loam mix used.
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/2686
and
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/279
What is it that makes the Old Trafford pitches so quick and bouncy?
Is it the special loam mix?
Does the layer of gravel have an effect not just in terms of drainage but also in the same way more gravel underneath a mat will increase its bounce???
Or is it a bit of everything with loads of Pete Marron's skill.
We have the opportunity to lay some tracks at the end of year as our outfield boundary has moved. Would love to experiment and have our own 'Old Trafford' pitch!!!
17 Jul 2008 by Grassman2011
Why not wright to Peter and ask him. He will be one of only one or two who will really know.
If you get any joy, please share the details with us.
17 Jul 2008 by Martyn Snell
what type of gravel would be used though?
17 Jul 2008 by jbuddington
There are current trials at Lords undertaken by Mick Hunt and under the guidance of Chris Wood on drop in wickets in the nursery ground. These removeable pitches are currently situated on the outfield, just outside the indoor school. An "Old Trafford mix" is currently one of the loam mixes being assessed. The results will be interesting, as they are being maintained to exacting standards, just as all the County Groundsmens` processes.
Maybe contact Chris Wood, via Lords main switchcboard.
18 Jul 2008 by mario
I recall being at Headingley in 1998 for an IOG Level 3 course and observing Head Groundsman, Andy Fogarty, mixing in a cement mixer 50% Ongar loam with 50% Supernatural. This was to be used to topdress a pitch which had just been overseeded.
Perhaps A.A. could comment as to whether this is still Andy's preferred loam mix and what the results were.
I know no boundaries.
18 Jul 2008 by H Singh
Is there a correlation between the bounce of a pitch and a layer of gravel underneath?
18 Jul 2008 by petermarkcraig
Good luck with any correspondence with Peter Marron. I have written to him twice on another matter and not received any reply.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
18 Jul 2008 by ember243
I guess the inclusion of fthe gravel provides a media that does not compress, thereby providing something for the roller to work against.
I have understood in the past that at Old Trafford they encourage some conditions others try to avoid. However I also believe they relay their pitches a little more often than the norm.
The above is hearsay though.
18 Jul 2008 by Grassman2011
i did have tongue in cheek when posting Peter.
18 Jul 2008 by Barry Pace Last edited 18 Jul 2008
For H Singh... As a non 'cricket' person but alledgedly informed and experienced contractor...... ok just a lowly contractor then.... the way i understood stone carpets to work on cricket is that they allow you to regulate the moisture content of the loam ie dry it earlier and use irrigation to get moisture levels up rather than waiting for it to come down. Again as I understood it this ability to manage moisture would allow you in the best conditions to get the optimum consolidation/loam conditions and theoretically set ya wickets accordingly. The downside as I see it is that a club with limited irrigation and part time groundsman/volunteers would struggle to keep the loam from drying too rapidly.
I await the en mass cricket 'slap' for getting it wrong......
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
18 Jul 2008 by Grassman2011
I was of the opinion that a stone raft was biult into constructions to provide a firm base on which to work up from, in unsuitable soils. Rather like footings, to give a firm and stable platform to build on.
Only my belief and opinion mind.
I feel this one could run and run and ru!!!!!!!!!!!
18 Jul 2008 by dave r-b Last edited 18 Jul 2008
Barry n Bath,
i have a stone raft under my square, (laid by myself) the raft does allow the moisture to drain quicker thus requiring some irrigation (only however at curtain times of year, like april and sept at the mo) to be serious the raft acts as a stable base in the unstable soils i have. my base is linked into the drainage system of the ground thus allowing the square to drain quicker... much needed on my square as ive a 10cm less of a slope than Lords and no Hover covers (i wish) the good thing i have found with the raft is that even when damp i still get a consistent bounce, it never gets nasty. the down side is i do in very dry weather (if only) have to water more than you would normally expect.
Add to this the fact that by adding more water (ouch) or the weather at this time of year means im leaching nutrients faster than you would normally my feed bills are a little higher (double ouch)
im now an ex groundsman but hey old habits die hard
23 Jul 2008 by Loammeister
Hi Kenny hope you are well
I think you touched on the real secret of the OT pitches when you mentioned Pete Marron's skills.
There's no doubt that if you can get contact with the man you could learn plenty, but as Peter Craig mentions it's not the easiest thing to get in touch with PM.
With reference to Kenny's (mario's) comments it's interesting to note that Andy at Headingley worked extensively with Pete Marron before moving to Headingley, so perhaps PM can take a little of the credit for Andy's fine work in improving the nature of the tracks at Leeds.
The situation with rafts is that conditions will vary according to which type of stone you use, for example Leicestershire granite behaves in a different way from Somerset limestone.
An angular stone tends to be used instead of a gravel to aid stability as the stone particles will bind to an extent as opposed to a gravel's rounded nature.
There are numerous imponderables that will affect the performance, so it's not easy to state categorically that one form of construction is better than another- much more a matter of each construction being tailored to the specifics of each site after completion of soil surveys.
Good Luck!
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
23 Jul 2008 by dave r-b
loamy, am i right in the fact that you are in talks with the chair of nott cga about loam costs/supply.... if so off the top of your head are you able to say if surrey loam would be compatible to a square totally constructed of kalaom
im now an ex groundsman but hey old habits die hard
24 Jul 2008 by Loammeister
You're quite right there dave r-b, glad the agm went well, your question about compatability is a good one, and would depend on which type of surrey loam you're considering. Send a pm so we can discuss this at further length then we can go public with our findings once we have established the rights and wrongs 
As usual compatability of loams can be checked using motty tests to compare shrinkage rates. If a motty of each material is prepared, then each motty halved and set together the comparative shrinkage rates can be guaged as they dry naturally. Science can help by comparing gradings before you start to see if the soils are of a comparable grading and clay type.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
25 Jul 2008 by ken carroll
Thanks everyone for all the replies to this post.
Keep up the good work!
27 Jul 2008 by jlawrence
Dave, you can pretty much mix any loams nowadays. Takes a bit of work, but with the likes of the Graden you can pretty much incorporate any loams together without getting layering/shrinkage problems.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
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