11 Sep 2008 by Martyn Snell Last edited 11 Sep 2008
i have now been told that apparently we do not need loam on the square,as we did it last yeh , and this now means i cant do deep scarification, all there asking for is me to use 2 bags of seed i have in stock on the square ,has any one any ideas advice , of renovating without loam and scarification?
11 Sep 2008 by mario Last edited 11 Sep 2008
Let me get this straight.......Your "bosses" want you to broadcast the seed onto the surface of the square to feed the birds??
Lucky pigeons. LOL
I know no boundaries.
hi martyn
have you explained the benefits of end of season renovations. if so could the club put this in writing as when you get complaints as we all do you can redirect this to them , as mario said otherwise feed the birds. otherwise suggest that you will need an overseeding machine that will cost more than the loam ? if you want quality you have to pay for it
best of luck mark also hope this rain stops soon
Martyn, have you explained why renovations are necessary ? If so, I'd put it in writing to the commitee and if it was me I'd also tell them they need a new groundsman.
IMHO you cannot renovate without scarification, loam, and seed.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
exactly,they say they wont to host minor county cricket in 5 years ,but arent prepared to put anything towards it.its so frustrating
11 Sep 2008 by Mike
Well Martyn, as much as I have tried to fight similair cases in the past, my advice to you would be to follow their instuctions, and let them suffer the concequences.
I had several instances similair to yours and things really got me down. I spoke of my plight to a number of people, and through taking on board much advice, I started to put my concerns forward in writing and then proceeded to let the crap hit the fan. We are now experiencing the results of this at my site. The grounds are the worst that they have been in nearly six years. Teachers are going mad that not one pitch is fit for purpose (ever seen a hockey lesson on 100mm grass?), upper management are going mad about the state of the place and I now have my sanity back!
There will come a time that I am going to have to be the one that gets everything back in order, and that will be very difficult. This scenario might just make people realise though that i'm a groundsman for a reason, and people that try to dictate to me without having sufficient knowledge will sooner or later end up eating a nice portion of humble pie!
Martyn,
Where have your bosses got this info from?
Are you employed or volunteer ?
Have they been in touch with there local county groundsman or pitch advisor for advice before informing you ?
Does your County board know of this decision ? before they make plans to use it.
If a square was done with a graden last year, top dressed and seeded, and then this year just lightly scarified with no loam, what would be the detrimental effects for next year? Other than less grass coverage would there be further problems you'd expect?
its there opinion ,as they think it will save them money,it will but only short term not 5 years down the line.
im employed so got to be careful what i say.
the pitch advisor agrees with me, but that holds no weight.
i am going to puit it in writing to the cricket committee that going against my suggestions for renovation will affect the PQS and also make the thatch problem we have got now even worse.
job anywhere going?
Anon,
to only lightly scarify wouldnt remove the thatch that as built up during a season, it wouldnt give the seed anything to grow in thus giving you no regrowth
you may as well walk round singing the song from Mary Poppins "FEEEEED THE BIRDS TUPPENCE A BAG, TUPPENCE...... TUPPENCE.... TUPPENCE A BAG" the only problem is seed is a damn site more expensive these day
im now an ex groundsman but hey old habits die hard
13 Sep 2008 by vid Last edited 13 Sep 2008
Martyn, I completely agree with all the above, however I would make the following comments:-
1. Put down in writing what you feel the minimum annual maintenance schedule should be so that the comittee can work towards that budget. Ask them if the lack of a renovation budget is permanent or temporary, and inform them that representative cricket is very unlikely on an under prepared surface.
2. Much as Mikes advice is what I would like to do a lot of the time I would be very careful going down this line. You need to prove your worthiness as a skilled professional to your employers and gain their respect. You will only do this by trying your best to comply with their requests and limited budget.
3. If you have only enough loam to repair the ends - do so and get good cover on your bare areas around the popping creases, elsewhere you will struggle but wait until the surface is good and damp (hardly difficult at the moment) spike and/or sarrel roll and scarify as deep as you dare to give a good key to the seed (this should knit itself together again over the winter - do not use a Graden or equivalent without first fitting thinner tines as the slot will be too wide and deep and will probably crack open next season). Lute the surface hard to push this seed in to the slots and move any soil on top and then lightly roll to press the rest of the seed in to the surface. You will then need to keep a few bags of loam aside to locally top up any serious holes in the surface.
The pigeons will get a lot and I'm sure you are very frustrated Martyn, however you will need to prove your integrity and professionalism along with a willingness to understand their budget constraints if you are going to gain enough of their respect to win any arguments and make them feel awkward about their constraints on the budget.
It is always an uphill task but if you throw all your teddies out of the pram and behave badly, you will never get their respect or even their attention and will almost certainly either lose your job or want to move on anyhow.
I wish you luck - try to build a positive relationship, however hard it seems in the heat of the moment - try the 'I can do that and I will do my best for the square but bare in mind......' approach, rather than the 'you must be joking...' one. You will find the atmosphere much easier to cope with and with luck and a positive outlook from the comittee you will gradually coax them round.
Martyn though I agree with vid there has to be some common sense talked to the committee. They will never get the ground to minor counties standard if they aren't willing to do the basic renovations year on year. A thatch layer may well provide a surface which gives your team a slight advantage - that advantage vanishes when they play away though as they get conditioned to playing on a 'poor' surface.
Anon, it really depends on your own circumstances as to what detrimental effects you could see. Putting loam on is (generally) done for a couple of reasons - to give the seed something to bind to, and to correct the levels which are always altered (damaged) during the season.
Have a thought as to the amount of loam you have removed during the playing season - scarifying (verticutting or whatever) during match prep, brushing up during match prep, brushing away debris between innings, brushing away debris after matches.
You spend a lot of time during the season removing material (in one form or another) from the square. This has to be replaced otherwise you'r'e going to have aweful problems with the levels. Given our current amounts of rainfall if your levels are bad at the beginning of the season (and only get worse throughout the season) imagine how much standing water you're going to end up with when the rains come.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Hi Martyn,
Is the cricket section of the club in financial difficulty? Your secretary was asking me just the other day if we'd received the cheque for ground rent for your 3rd team. I'm now going to check with our treasurer that it's gone into the bank!
My own "budget" this year for renovations is £450 - about the same as we've spent for each of the last 5 years. I've had to cut loam from 80 to 60 bags this year in order to live with the higher prices. I will still deep scarify, but there will be less dressing. I'm happy for you to share that with your committee if you think it might help.
I struggle to believe that a club the size of yours cannot find £600 to do what would be just basic renovation. Then again, I heard on Saturday that they're thinking of banning all juniors who do not commit to play for the senior side. Might this run counter to Club mark and exempt them from lottery funding as the club would no longer be "open"? It would lose them a good number of the academy who's dads play for small clubs with no junior section.
The ciderman rolls
Why do you not have your loam delivered loose, it works out a lot cheaper.
Mike
Agreed. I ordered 2 tonnes in 2 large bags yeaterday. Works out about 25% cheaper.
In my case, when I've had it quoted up, loose was no cheaper than bagged - it surprised me but it's true! And you then have the problems of having to bag up a load for summer repairs.
Does loose v bagged pricing come down to how other clubs in the area receive their loam? All the clubs I know about around here get it in bags, so I would be in the minority - hence a special order.
The ciderman rolls
16 Sep 2008 by mario
Up here one of my colleagues on the west coast also said that he had got 3 tonnes in one tonne bags delivered at 25% less than I had paid bagged up.
Worth having a word again with your supplier Jon.
Remember - you're the customer. Don't let them drive you into the dirt.....sorry loam.....sorry top dressing.......or bulli....
I know no boundaries.
Loose (or 1 tonne bags) is always cheaper - or it should be. There is considerably less expense involved for the supplier that there is when it comes to 20Kg bags.
Personally I use 20Kg bags as it's more convenient - ie 6 bags a track as opposed to having to weigh the stuff. It's also easier for me to get 20kg bags into the garage out of the way than it would be to move 1 tonne bags around.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Personally, i hate the 1 tonne bags, as Jon says they are a bugger to move and even harder work to shovel / load a top dresser out off.
The 20Kg bags are Ok and i use them for any repairs during the season, but we are lucky as we get our loam loose and use our loader to load the top dresser, just today got 3 ( 12, 8, 8 wickets) squares and a 9 bay practice area top dressed in less than 2 hrs
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