Message Board - Football: state of our pitch needs an expert
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club. Last edited 26 Nov 2008
hi been on here a few times and had many replies, but with no result, mole drain etc state of the soil is poor, its what I think you guys call a cut and shut level thing when the pitch was made up. We dug a ditch behind a goal and found only 3 inches of top soil and the rest solid clay ! we really need some serious advice, the seasons only just kicked off really and already we can see the problems looming unless dryer weather comes soon. take a look at these pics we have standing water that has not moved for almost 3 weeks and is becoming stagnant ! any ideas will have to be put on hold for next season, but any short term ideas would help dearly, if you are willing to tarvel to take a look at the problem then I would be delighted !!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
here is another picture for you
26 Nov 2008 by Cueball
Have you forked the area over? do you have access to any machinery/mony for contractors?
Whereabouts aer you base?
Have you thought about TNT?
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
forked it a million times, we have some access to machinery but its too wet to get on pitch it will just make it worse, whats TNT ?
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
sorry based in Cardigan west wales
26 Nov 2008 by Jason Carr
Sand, sand and more sand to get you through these really wet times. Then as soon as the season ends have a drainage firm in to lay pipe and sand filled mole channels linking the drains. The drains must lead to an outlet! if the wet weather holds off then keep the top open with slitters and spikers. It will help but wont't cure. You could dress the are with gypsum which would break the clay but it does take a while to to work and again wouldn't help you this season.
Jason
26 Nov 2008 by Dave
Paul,
There is no quick fix to your problems, but what Jason has said is correct. I went to see a pitch up in the north west a few weeks ago with similar problems.
They do have drains in place already and there has been some sand banding done within the last 3 years.
I recommended that they sand banded the pitch again now and then looked to import between 600-900 tons of sandy rootzone at the end of the season to be added to the 2 inches of rootzone that they have now. The subsoil is 76% fine material with over 50% silt and clay.
The question is whether you can move to a better venue cheaper....
26 Nov 2008 by glenkeeran
Hi Paul
Dont know what king of budgets you might have, but maybe you should consider hireing the blec sand master for a local contractor. Really helps with water retention and firms up the surface.
Regards
Brian
everything happens for a reason
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace
Well 2 points for Paul really, just to point him in the right direction,
Firstly I am not quite sure of the hourly cost of a Chinook these days cos that is what it will want to get the sand to the hopper on a sandmaster, assuming that Garry can sort an adaption kit for a D6 LGP.....
Also the sandmaster process does really require a piped drainage system beneath or free draining soils which can cap off and from the pics I would roughly guess you have neither lol......
.......when it is this bad there really is only one answer
a proper piped drainage system with banding/slitting and a whole lot of sand dressing above. In an ideal world you would also look to getting some soil cover to a depth you can work with too, 3'' is pushing it for grass to withstand wear.
It looks like the site (from your wording) was built on a Cut & Fill basis, you can sort of see the bank behind the goal where the cut joins the fill, added to the fact you have clay subsoil with little topsoil cover, and problems can happen at any point due to the usual impact on soil structure that this type of earthworks process can make. Add to this that if the contractor doing the work had a poor specification to work to, or was not to bothered about working the soil wet or decompaction, nice cheap price that suited the clients budget and hey presto... nice flat area, mown out with lines painted with goals in place that just cant sustain any usage during wet conditions due to the poor soil depth/quality/drainage.
I would also like to ask what is the maintenance regime for this site, levels of aeration out of season, sanding etc as this all has a bearing, have seen many drainage systems fail due to lack of aftercare by clubs who dont realise that paying for the drainage is only the first stage of getting a pitch right, the rest is down to the groundsman....and more importantly.... the kit and budget he is given.
Stage 1, get either an experienced known Agronomist/consultant or LDCA contractor/s to design and price a system.....
Stage 2, get off floor and give price to boss/club....
Stage 3, if they dont get the cheque book out get a funding application in.....
Or as Dave suggests if this is too much seriously look into alternative venues unless money is available to do it properly
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Hi Barry
you ae correct it was a cut and fill basis by a company called THyssen, back about 12 yrs ago, they were doing a flood prevention job here in Cardigan West Wales and used the waste to fill in the land here as seen in the pic, the pitch was not used until 5 years ago and we have tried in vain to look after it, but this years rain has really got hold of it and as you can see the state of the pitch is worse than ever. We dug a trench behind the goal as you can just about see in the picture above as we thought the rainfall came down the slope and ran onto the playing area, but its helped a little but the rest of the pitch this year has suffered because of the weather. When dry its great !
When it does rain heavy it goes nowhere just sits on the top no matter how much we fork it, and when we do apply some sand it just turns into a mud bath.
We are at our wits end, the property is owned by the local county council and they say they will do nothing, which to be honest is what they have done for the past 12 years, the playing area had not been touched, so we are asking for help so we can actually go to the council and kick up a fuss, before they end up with a field nobody wants. Any more suggestions would be grateful cheers
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace
I expect that part of the flood prevention scheme was a load of old bull about how they were going to form a nice sports facility with the spoil......... except all they did was form a flat area and paint some soil on top probably making plenty of money along the way...............
I really dont see how you can improve what you have without major major changes.... either to levels to get some degree of falls, topsoil quality and most importantly some proper drainage to carry the water away... lets face it you must have quite an abundance of rainfall per year due to the location... finally it will need proper maintenance to ensure that the surface stays playable...
If the council are not interested in sorting it ( are any of them unless its playing at stockbrokers with our money) then a community scheme may be able get some funding to improve it but this will depend on usage/facilities/interest/potential etc and how much work someone can put in to get the idea out and locate funding. I bet the council would be all over you if this was possible... but then I am cynical miserable bugger eh lol.... I am sure others on here may be able to point you in the grants/funding direction and let you know the sources and requirements this will need.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by cardiff1
use a vertidrain on it, and create a channel from the centre of the mud to the goal line and then create a sump fill with rocks and then add pipe from the mud areas to the sump. Fill with decent sand or soil mix off the pitch off course. I work for the council and they managed to get a contractor in to do our pitches 3 of them in total and you could see the water flushing off the pitch. If you get a contractor in I am sure this would help for this season..all the best
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace
I agree with the drain bit cardiff anything will help but vertidraining a pitch in this condition (ie when it has dried out a little obviously) has the risk of just being like a fork in butter with it actually making the soil wetter as the holes fill up with water. Timing the use of any tine based aeration will be critical on clay soil like this to not go backwards (if you could actually get worse than that lol)
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Hi Barry what I forgot to mention that THYSSEN who did the job had placed 2" blue drainage pipes, but we found these 18inches down and stuck fast inside the clay ! so that was a waste of time too !
26 Nov 2008 by panch
A local rugby club that we cut the grass for had similar problems. One of the players worked for BT putting up new posts. In the summer they used the auger where the wet areas had been and drilled down 4-6 foot through the infill into the original ground. They then filled with clean limestone and topped off with sand. The pitch is still not the best but has shown a marked improvement and has improved further since i started verti draining it.
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace
Paul, are the pipes in a sound condition, all insulated from the world and water down there in the clay lol, because these could save you a lot of graft for now, if you can expose the pipes ven if its in odd positions and bring gravel blinded by sand (A SPORT SAND IF POSS) to the surface you will start to get rid of the water at least, and then only then can you start thinking about how and what you do...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
No Barry,
even the pipes were in bits, compressed i think by the heavy machinery they probably used, to be honest if I remember even the digger had problems getting through the clay, took something like 8 hours to dig a 60 yards long x 12" wide by 2 foot deep trench, i assume this is slow going as the guy who done the job was extremely frustrated at the compaction. Surely there must be something that can be done to resolve this, bloody frustrating I can tell you.
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace Last edited 26 Nov 2008
Blimey even our Gwazae might not have an impact on soil that hard, no surprise you got problems, would probably take 2 or 3 goes with it to loosen that up.... I havent mentioned this before as I think we have spoken in the past about it, could be wrong, but because you have such a flat (puddles), compacted, destructured site I really dont know how well this would do at this stage, its really pipe in the ground you need first. Of course if you want to pay us I am sure we can negotiate a sensible price (its much cheaper per pitch than it was <£1000) for either us or Underbusters to come down and try. If you want to see the new video its on youtube just type gwazae in at search.
I really cant say if its the answer for now at least but people on here who have seen it will tell you it opens soil up like nothing else, lets air and water in, problem we have found on similar sites is that the top closes over very quickly cos its soft and people think its failed, not that they need to keep the surface open.
Try this link to see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiiCPHOgNLk
Night now
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Why not challenge youself Barry bring the GWAZAE down video the job, and see what results you achieve ! I work for the local rag and we can do a good splash for you, which may result in work for you in this area !! I am laying down the gauntlet for you lol obviously I am kidding but if you want to have a go ..........
26 Nov 2008 by Barry Pace Last edited 26 Nov 2008
yeah yeah lol and who gonna pay all that deisel and extortionate cost it is for me to come into wales lol as much as I would like to it would cost us COST us £700-800 quid in fuel, wages, wear and servicing to do the job.... and I just cant do that sort of thing anymore....
Ere ever get the feelin you bin baited .................... I have rofl...
Talk tomorrow Paul, I have the possibility of going down West next week to sort a problem at a racecourse and could, possibly, trip on to you, it would involve a stay over night, fuel costs etc and a negotiated price to do the job, at least so I can cover the fuel, lorry and wages and wear on machine (it is an expensive bit of kit to run) but we lookin hundreds not thousands here......
call me on 07990-690301
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Its Ok Barry
I honestly do appreciate the advice we have so far, we have a meeting tomorrow night to see where we go from here, I think what we really need to do is to put the Council under some sort of pressure, we rent the ground off them so as they are the "Landlord" any work required should be at their expense,
27 Nov 2008 by EHU Mission Control
Interested what part of Cardigan are you, the bottom area down by the river or up by the rugby club high up this may have some bearing on the problem or not, I know the area
may be able also to offer some advice or put you in touch with repartable companies in S Wales / West Wales
But really the council should rectify this!!!!!
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
27 Nov 2008 by korky
If the council are interested in having the site utelised by sports clubs they should be willing to undertake the remedial work needed to make it playable.The object of these facilities is to get kids "of the road" and involved, to use their energy and take out their frustrations on a football etc.
They may not have the resources at the moment to do all. However if the job is assessed and a plan of action is decided on it can all happen in time. Dialogue is necessary.
With a shallow topsoil or maybe none at all, it might be necessary to import good topsoil and cover what you have now. Councils always have soil from roadworks etc. After that you will need primary drainage and on going maintenance. You have displayed the willingness do organise the games so they should meet youi halfways at least and its winners all-round. Get your local elected representative on board and good luck!
27 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Anti Fa, the pitch is near Bron Y Dre, near NETPOOL Cemetary not sure if you know it but it over looks the Teifi, but I dont think that is the problem. If you can get someone down here then great at least we can have someone who can see the problems and we can take it from there.....
Hi Korky,
We have had words with the ceredigion county council about it, but the facility had been there for 6 years and overgrown and unused, until we started up our football club, council say they have no resources, although they have 5 million stashed in an Icelandic bank !
Its a problem thats not going to go away and at the end of the day why should the football club spend their money on land that does not belong to them, when if the development had been done correctly in the 1st place then we wouldnt be asking for help.Today i spoke to our local councillor and I am hoping she can get the ball rolling, but I feel its going to ba long process and time is what we ashort on at the moment.
Keep your ideas coming everybody !!
27 Nov 2008 by EHU Mission Control
Just looked up about some regional funding for you, the may be a useful source of funding
Go onto the Wesh F A web site and there is a link for the Welsh Football trust would fund pitch and ground improvements etc its worth investigating
Yes I do know the location of the pitch in Cardigan, will try and make contact to look at this further on your behalf.
Let me know if I can be of help.
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
27 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
Anti FA
I would be delighted if you could help, as for the Football Trust, this would have to be through the County council first of all as we are not the actual owners of the ground, and thats where the whole problem starts.......
27 Nov 2008 by EHU Mission Control
Use the Football trust as a positive lever to get the council to work with you rather than against you, it will show that you mean business, local and county council members will look at it as positive ie good publicity its all worth a try.
Money match option etc for funding the work is also an option, all avenues need to be explored
Out of interest which league do you play in?
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
27 Nov 2008 by EHU Mission Control
Hi Paul
Out of intrest is it the pitch that runs horizontal to the cementry or is it the pitch that runs towards the river.
Can I ask the question who set out the pitch running towards the river ?????????????????
Have a look on google earth you will be amazed what you can see ?
regards Anti FA
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
28 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
It is the one running towards the river the planning / contractors laid out the pitch, oh yes the lines aint perfect ! but thats the least of our problems !!
28 Nov 2008 by taffy
is the ground stony underneath?? as if not maybe mole plough would do some good especially in clay soil?? even if the water just ran of the playing surface onto waste ground would be better! taffy
28 Nov 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
mole no good, clay is only few inches below surface, pitch needs a little more work than a mole plough I am afraid Taffy
4 Dec 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
just been told that the pich has blue clay (see pic) just a few inches below the top soil, which from what i have been told was the waste from some work the council (who contacted THYSSEN) had done on a flood prevention scheme nearby, where from here ...........
4 Dec 2008 by Grassman2011
The council. They have not provided a suitable site on which to play winter sports in the winter. Perhaps you could play your home fixtures during the summer. Sorry could'nt help that one.
4 Dec 2008 by Barry Pace
Drains and flocculation are yet again your only avenue of improvement if it isnt ripped up and redone I am afraid Paul
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
4 Dec 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
flocculation sounds a harsh word Barry ! was down on pitch this morning it seems to be getting worse !! I took some pictures and did a layout of the pitch, might look small on here but I can email if anyone wants a closer peek !!
4 Dec 2008 by Barry Pace
Yes pls Paul, send to barry@speedcutcontractors.co.uk
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
4 Dec 2008 by Barry Pace
Tell me if I got the layout wrong but it appears that the filled section drains better than the cut section is this right
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
4 Dec 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
as you look at the pitch eg on our right that side does drain quite well, its from the bank side to about halfway is the problem, but I am assuming thats the clay there that is causing the water to stay ... just emailed you a bigger picture
4 Dec 2008 by Maesglas Football Club.
more pics here to test your brains out guys......
http://www.freewebs.com/maesglasfc/apps/photos/
Back to Top - Go to Next Unread Message
This Message is closed, you may not post a reply at this time
