16 Dec 2008 by EDS
Our cricket club will hopefully be in a position to purchase a vertical action spiker. Much is written on here about the Groundsman, I've used it and like it, but is there an alternative? Is it the best choice?
Thinking of the 345HD, but what sort of tines? I want it for use during the season as well, to use as you would a sarrell roller, plus of course for the usual end of season / winter spiking [not envisaging hollow coring].
And then to a scarifier. No major thatch problem and have been using a Graden for the last few years, but now looking to purchase own kit. Thinking of either the Rotorake 600 or Graden, used the Graden which is great [more expensive] but you have to pick up the rubbish! any other alternatives?
Total budget about £11k
Appreciate any advice.
Still Learning
EDS,
As far as a spiker is concerned, i think you have answered your own qeustion. Sisis do there arrow and dart, but i do not hear any comments on here about either machine. Perhaps someone will give us there thoughts.
As far as tines go the chouce is yours. Ask to see a tine catologue, you may even be able to see one on line, but they do a cluster head that does a sarrell roller job. Turf retainers can also be fitted. With your budget, it may be possible to purchase the next size up, the 460 HD.
Another option is the Toro, but i dont think your budget will stretch to that.
Scarifyer, Graden or Sisis 600, take your pick. Do you own a tractor ? if so the tractor mounted models come into the equation. Whichever you decide on, you should get some change.
EDS, don't focus on whether the scarifier picks up arisings or not. Focus on which does the scarifying job best.
Regardless of which machine you use there will still be some stuff to pick up afterwards.
For spikers, I've not seen anything (other than a Toro) which comes close to the Groundsman. When it comes to tines, there are enough different types to do pretty much anything that you can think of.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
The Toro is an excellent machine, but then it is also double the price (and more) of the Groundsman.
Funnily enough, my staff preferred the Groundsman simply because you were behind the machine during operation as opposed to in front of the machine with the Toro.
17 Dec 2008 by EDS
Thanks all for your helpful comments.
Although thatch isn’t a major problem this is probably due, in part, to having used the Graden for a few seasons now.
Budget would I think be severely stretched by a Graden. The Rotorake 600 is an alternative but have heard that changing over the blades from those for scarifying to those for verticutting is a bit of a pain, and also when using a brush reel.
I know the Autorake MK5 is not a direct comparison with the 600 but ideally I’d prefer the robustness and depth that you can get with the 600 [keeps options open as to what you may need it for] but prefer the versatility of changing over the accessories you get with the MK5.
I’ve no experience of a 600 so it may be wrong what I’ve been told, anybody out there with first hand experience?
Still Learning
EDS,
Your budget of 11k will buy a pedestrian Graden and the Groundsman 460HD. The vat might push it over if you cannot claim that back.
Changing implements on the 600 is time consuming i believe.
The Mk 5 is good for verticutting and power brushing. You can buy the Mk 4 quite cheaply second hand, still very versatile for verti cutting and power brushing.
20 Dec 2008 by vid Last edited 20 Dec 2008
if you should buy a second hand sisis autorotorake, check that the drive pulley is not worn. If it is replace it with the sisis new steel pulley and you will be amazed at the increase in power - mine went from just scratching in to the surface with new tines to cutting 10 - 15mm deep on cricket with a worn set. Certainly the machine is much much more than a verticutter and with a closer spacing than the '600' capable of removing more thatch (yes more), what it cant do is cut really deep and provide aeration and deeper soil exchange - a well kept square with good profile and a decent spiker wouldnt need the extra depth or expense of extra soil to compensate. The sisis 600 and graden are excellent machines but are not as good at scarifying - they are for that reason called linear aerators and are another excellent addition to the machinery available to groundkeepers, this does not mean that fine turf scarifiers such as the autorotorake, dennis, allett etc are not top class machines in their own rights for the reasons mentioned above.
EDS
I to have been looking at scarifiers i spoke to sisis last week about the 600 the trouble they have at the mo is putting the power through the stub axle it just shatters but they are working on it , if they find a cure im up for one multi heads and depth
Vid
Good call on belt pulley , have you tried fitting s. p .a belts there deeper than standard belts and also give you extra power ( less slip more grip )
21 Dec 2008 by vid
With the old pulley I was going through 2 belts per season because of all the slipping, the latest one looks virtually brand new after a whole season, so dont know when I will need a new one as I have a spare!! Thanks for the advice though
21 Dec 2008 by k-hib
hi vid are you talking about changing both pulleys to the blade drive? or just the larger one on the drive ? thanks karl
once a ransomes man allways a ransomes man !!!!
21 Dec 2008 by vid Last edited 21 Dec 2008
The small engine shaft double pulley is the one that causes the problem, because of the larger size of the blade drive pulley it does not slip first so shouldnt need replacing. The engine pulley I believe was made of aluminium or at least a lightweight alloy, the sides of the 'V' should be flat if it has a ridge it is probably needing replacement. In my case it slipped all the time and the work rate was pathetic, the change in performance is remarkable and restores ones faith in the machine
used the Sisis 600 for the last 2 years for scarifing on bowling greens for light to deep scarifing, great machine, just the problem with the changing the blades it takes time. Groundsman 345 and 460 great machines for the money. Just started using a Sisis arrow on the greens for solid tine quick and easy to turn just breaking it in.
22 Dec 2008 by EDS
derekloque
How long does it take to change the blades over? Is it quite straight forward ? Have you used the brush reel?
Thanks everyone else for their contributions too
Still Learning
23 Dec 2008 by Charles Johnson
I looked at the Sisis 600 as an alternative to hiring the Graden this year. It seemed to have many more blade settings and arrangements for various tasks, whereas the Graden had the power and set up for deep cricket table scarification.
We have a second hand 460SDR, and it is brilliant. It was pretty old when we got it so needed attention, but it has been robust and reliable. The SDR is a great feature, being able to steer and turn while the machine is in work.
I'm glad you like your 460sdr Charles. I would not be without mine. Same as the Graden, you will never take it from me.
23 Dec 2008 by vid
Guys I admire the enthusiasm but these new pieces of kit are expensive and intensive, although they can achieve a light scarifiaction their primary purpose is linear aeration. Dont belittle the very good machines that are available as scarifiers. Well maintained squares do not need such regular intense attention unless you have the budget to match. A well looked after autorotorake is still a very good machine and for most clubs more than adequate. It is better to hire in a deeper cutting machine on occasion when the square or green is getting a bit tired and needs soil exchange. I dont feel the need to use one especially when the clubs I do work for are asked to cough up for tons more soil.
My point is that we are in danger in our enthusiasm for these linear machines of making people feel this is the only machine for the job now and they will, for no good reason, become disatisfied with what was until now a very good machine such as the sisis autorotorake and the like.
You hit the nail on the head there vid, intensive. Exactly what you want to be on a cricket square in the autumn. Accepting that we will all have are likes and dislikes, i will take issue on the "tons more soil ". When i started in this game, it was common practice to smother each wicket with 8 to ten bags of loam.
Despite my love of useing the Graden, i now only use approx 6 bags per wicket and i know that it is worked into the surface, not laying on top of.
When scarifying in the autumn, it is vital to break well into the surface, for one to remove all the debris that has been rolled into the surface during the summer and two the grooves provide a perfect seed bed.
If it was not beneficial to use these machines, why was the Graden designed in Australia for this very reason ? and why have Sisis made there copy ?
I dont think that you and i will ever agree on this one vid, but i wish you a stonking good Christmas and Happy New Year all the same. It would be a boring life if we all thought the same.
well with a machine that is versatile like the 600 wouldnt the extra cost be worth it
in the long run ? No need to hire in but the advantage to hire out and make it pay for itself ? also you have the advantage of it yours when you want it
Also what is the cost to hire a graden or 600 for a day or with man and machine ?
23 Dec 2008 by vid
Same to you Bath. You may think I disagree with what you say but I dont, the graden or sisis 600 are top machines. I know both machines. Since I renovated the pulleys on the autorotorake however I can cut all the rubbish out of the wicket as well - down to a depth of about 6mm - not brilliant but certainly deep enough to remove all the thatch and rubbish from the top of the profile - my thatch goes no deeper. The spacing on the blades is closer (on a dennis or allett closer still) so I need just 2 passes at the end of the season on cricket and 3 on bowls to get the surface very clean indeed and well keyed ready for seed - thats not my experience of the graden or '600'. It has to be said the germination of ryegrass in these grooves is fantastic but the only true gain I feel is being able to cut deep into the popping crease area which would preclude me spiking with the Ga30 in 3 directions to break these areas up - to be honest Bath its six if one and half dozen of the other, I really was just trying to say to all those groundsmen with rotorakes that they have in fact an exceptionally good piece of kit, that still does an excellent end of season job and is very versatile in the preparation of wickets as well, so they dont need to feel they are inadequatein any way!!
Ideally I would love to use a graden at the end of the season but I cant justify the cost especially as I wouldnt want to get rid of the rotorake ( its very good at clearing up after the Graden !!).
Like you Bath I feel sometimes we sit on opposite sides of the fence - thank G*d for that - as you said how boring would it be otherwise and how big would my head get if everyone agreed with all my hot air!!!!
Have a great Christmas, I'm sure we'll talk again
hi vid
i cant see how the rotorake is good at clearing up after the graden as the box is upside down and holds next to nothing imho also not the best system in connecting and emptying the box
but i find a billy goat very usefull
merry xmas to you and your family and a happy new year
hi eds why dont you give the graden guy a ring website on the banners hes been working on gricket squares since he was about eleven he will give you he's honest opinion he might have second hand machines im sure he can help people that know me will hopefully tell you im allright (this could be interesting) and not am ass """e regards keith kensett (graden guy)!! ps or contact bill (oval)
23 Dec 2008 by vid
Hi Has 2 mow - Same type of collector on the 600 - perhaps you know how the bucket would be better designed - works fine for me - are you sure you have the deflector plate adjusted low enough - dont forget that these machines contra rotate so they dont throw the arisings as high so a normal grass catcher wouldnt work either. This contrarotation is what makes a rotorake so effective.
autorotorake good points
1. lightweight
2. Quick
3. Easy to operate
4. Powerful (compared to other scarifiers)
5. Large range of tines etc and easy to change over
6. Economical 4000m ish per tankful
7. Spares readily and quickly available
8. Easy to work on
9. Contrarotates
Bad points
1. Build quality often poor frame not set square
2. Box often warps and weak awkward to put on
3. Roller design poor seizes up readily
4. Spares expensive
Keith
Are you at harrogate next year ?
ref second hand machines what prices pm me if you wish , will be good to see you again
Are you lost ? i was developing a vertical cam action spiker now that will test the memory ?
Happy Christmas Graden guy !! See you at Harrogate mate.
has2mow
yeah i remember how did go? will be at harrogate forgot my stand number loads of newto stuff talk about, hope to see you all there cheers keith. happy xmas Gordon (oops bath)
Vid
The machine i was on about was the mk 4 different beast by the look of it no harm meant . haveing a box that you can see into and is easy to empty is quite important , as for build quality a few minor changes in production is all that is needed then , a stiffer box and a few grease nipples how much could that cost ?
I am up for a new machine next year so its good to hear other peoples views . and if i can hire it out and make some money out of it as well
Graden or sisis ????
Beware when hiring out. Insist that you hire yourself with machine.
Bath
Man and machine sounds better than what have you done with this ,at least it will then come back in one piece
merry xmas bath and seasonal cheer
Keith
All worked out pretty well ive not even broken it in over 2 years constant use , look forward to seeing you at the show.
Merry xmas to you and all the team at graden
The auto rotorake can indeed do a pretty good job, BUT and it's a big BUT it will only do so under the correct conditions. If the square is rock hard then the auto rotorake ain't going to manage to do jack.
Another BUT is that the auto is only going to do the job you need at the end of the season if you've already got the thatch under control.
I do believe that the auto can cope with one season's worth of thatch. Having said that, I'm with Bath - given the choice I renovate with a linear aerator rather than the auto every year.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
24 Dec 2008 by mario
As I have said on other posts before - for end of season renovations........ HIRE IN!!
.....and knock lumps out of a rental rather than your own machine.
I know no boundaries.
Mario
As to hire in, i got a quote this year to get someone in to do two passes on a bowls green at 30 mm deep with a tractor mounted scarifier , cost 1100 pounds plus vat and traveling per pass so i think in the long run it would be cheaper for us to buy and then sell
( one careful owner lol only used once )
wishing you and your family a merry xmas
By hire in I think mario means hire in the machinery and DIY - not necessarily contract in someone to do it.
I hire in for end of season. The headache is that you could be right up there without a paddle if the weather turns cr4ppy.
I find it difficult to justify a Graden which would only be used for renovations.
However, if my tractor proves capable of driving the tractor mounted version then I might be able to justify one - I could do the outfields as well then. Hmmm, need a big brush as well.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
You start doing that JL and you will wish you had'nt started.
As for cost has2mow, cant you try other contractors for a price? I would only charge approx £500 for two passes and brush up as well. Perhaps that is why i dont make much money.
As Mario says JL, buy your rotorake for year round use, hire in machine or machine and operator for end of season renovation. Good value for money that way.
Bath
are you having a xmas sale ?or a pitchcare special promotion
That was the best price i got you dont want to know what the dearest was ? how far will you travel for that price ? i might take you up on that next year and would be good to meet you , and the price i quoted was for me to clear up
the seasonal cheer has started with a beer or two
24 Dec 2008 by EDS
I think JL has hit the nail on the head. Whilst the hiring in option is certainly worth considering, you have to balance that with where you are located - the cost goes up considerably if you aren't near a company that would hire out say a Graden, and by having your own kit you have the flexibility to do it when you want and when the weather is right.
All valid comments though.
Still Learning
Having your own kit (as a club) has to ultimately be the best way forward.
Bath, I can imagine that I'd wish I'd never started scarifying an outfield. But I imagine that the end product would well be worth the effort.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Reserve judgement and let me know when you have done it Jon.
Have a good one.
25 Dec 2008 by mario
Precisely what I was meaning, Jon. Speak to the reps and get one of their demos in.
Fortunately I have a tractor so can put a Sisis TM1000 on the back.....What me walk?? Not at my height!!
I have it on site for the best part of a week meaning I get 4 passes on the square and a pass over the run-ups too. Complete with tungsten blades which means that you don't have to wait until the surface softens a bit.
Point is - £150 job done.
I know no boundaries.
Mario: what size tractor do you need to get one of those on ?
IIRC, the graden is 20Hp plus so I'd need to persuade them to get me a new tractor (/me dreaming a little now).
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Cost of new scaraifying machine and second hand tractor, £10/£12 K
End of season scarifying carried out by competant contractor, what price ? Many years for the cost of buying.
Clubs have to buy materials anyway. Cost to have contractor to carry out renovations approx. £500 per ten wicket square. Plus job can be finished in less than a day, can be carried out during midweek, not just at weekends, and then hoping that the promised volunteer labour turns up.
Never worth most clubs even considering to buy specialist machines these days.
In my experience, many recreational grounds end of season renovations are very poorly carried out. This can be down to lack of machinery, labour, materials and knowledge. All well intentioned i know. Far better, that clubs have a damn good knees up and raise the money for a contractor with the right equipment. Many clubs dont even have there mowers serviced regularly so why try to buy expensive kit that might be used once or twice a year ?
Sorry playmates, rant over.
Happy New Year to you all.
26 Dec 2008 by leon
Bath
its all ways better to have your own kitt then its there when you need it as contractors in my expirence rip you off as many of them only do half the job and do it baddly. also Ifind they over charge.
Redbourn Cricket Club
26 Dec 2008 by mario
Jon.
I have the TM1000 on the back of my 38 horse but according to the Sisis website the recommended is 25 h.p.
I know no boundaries.
I agree with some of what you say leon, it is better to have your own kit, but as i said many clubs dont even look after there mowers properly due to expense, so why make matters worse by trying to buy your own.
You have obviously had a bad experience with local contractors. If i only did half a job and badly at that, i would not stay in business long. Cost is an individual thing, what proof have you of overcharging. If things cost to much for a club to have work done, then dont have it done. Because it might appear to be expensive does not mean that you have been overcharged.
Kevin, i know things have been difficult for you of late, i really hope that something turns up for you in the new year and i wish you and yours well.
bath, I agree and disagree.
Ideally I'd contract in all end of season work - far less hassle for me that way.
But, the primary reason for having your own equipment is that things can get done in the correct conditions. It's not the contractors fault really but work often gets done in none ideal conditions. There's no way that contractors can be as flexible as the groundsman can by having his own kit.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
27 Dec 2008 by EDS
Same goes for the kit on the ECB/C4 trailer – you can’t always guarantee you can have it when you want it as invariably everyone wants it at the same time [understandably].
Still Learning
JL,
Most recreational clubs can only get there reno's done at weekends, rain or shine, and i have seen some horrible messes because of a wet weekend. I agree that full time groundsman on site can make use of there own kit, but these men are very few on the ground.
Perhaps i am different than most, but i will not do the job untill ground conditions are ok. The secret, is to only take on enough work that you, your staff and machinery can realistically cope with. Even with the slow start we had this year because of a wet start to September, i was still finished in time. Even took on two extra jobs with a couple of days notice in early October, both are fine. Went on holiday with a clear conc!!!!!! head.
27 Dec 2008 by taffy Last edited 27 Dec 2008
I agree with you bath, you have got to be sensible with what work you take on. By having the right kit to do the job you can get on and do the job quicker aswell if the weather is dodgy. I have just bought a sisis multi-tiner for aerating my cricket and bowling greens. Even know it is a roll over spiker it is a brilliant piece of kit. I can do a cricket square (Ten wickets) in 20mins and a bowling green in about 30mins it does a birlliant job!! i have used a groundsman in the past but i wont be using that know i dont think. I may be advertising it soon!
Cheers
Taffy
Taffy,
The groundsman is the rolls royce of aeration machines. Might not be the fastest, but vertical action, imperative on cricket squares, and tines close together. The day will come when you regret selling it, if that is what you do. I might even buy it if i can beet the crouds from this site to it first.
and crowds I can pretty much guarantee there will be.
Gordon, you are (I believe) pretty unusual as a contractor. For many it's a nightmare if you (as groundsman) decide it's too wet to allow the contractor on the square.
Ultimately I'd like the tractor driven groundsman.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
27 Dec 2008 by pacman75cricket
I can see a crowd longer than those at the woolies sales gathering, strange how everyone will want this machine when the current user seems to be going backwards in his choice of machinery, give me a vertical action any time & varying the depth of spiking to avoid future problems or to help resolve current problems.
Taffy, i hope you are ready for the rush, it will seem like the January sales, but remember i asked first please.
JL, i have just bought one for my business and have won in the ECB machinery grant awards and will be receiving a new one at the club very shortly so i am led to believe.
Do want to hire me in sometime ?
28 Dec 2008 by vid
There we are Bath - something we agree on again, whatever next. We as contractors limit the number of renovations that we can manage to 3good days a week. Normally there are more days where we can prepare and less days to topdress but it normally works out fine. In order to achieve this we alternate from preparation to top dressing so sometimes there may be as much as a week between operations but conditions will have been ideal, only very occasionally do we get caught out - but thats the same for groundsmen as well - how many of you have managed to topdress but been unable to lute the whole square thoroughly before a short shower has turned up!!
Vertical action is by far the best - I am spoilt with a GA30 but I wouldnt be without it. IMHO drum spikers dont relieve compaction well and tend to severely damage weakened/root break areas of turf
Vid,
Whatever next, i could have written your post. I think we need to go and have a lie down. Re apraise the coming of 2009, i've got a headache coming !!
29 Dec 2008 by taffy
i agree with you all that the groundsman is a very good machine and i may well keep hold of it for the odd occassion that i may need it. but from what i have seen with the sisis multi-tiner there is minimal surface disruption as there is a light roller that firms the surface. And vid solid tine aerators such as the groundsman will not relieve compaction and can still cause surface disruption if there are severe root breaks within the square. By using different tines i can still vary the depth of aeration. I believe that it is the frequency of aeration that is important and by having a machine that can aerate qucikly and effectivley is very important to me as i can carry out aeration more often. If deeper root breaks are present then i would use deeper aeration such as the verti-drain. I also believe the simpler the machine the less there is to go wrong. lol
Cheers taffy
29 Dec 2008 by vid
Taffy, the groundsman too has a variety of tines as does the GA30. The Ga 30 also has a variety of holders and so can spike at 37mm centres or 65mm centres solid tines from 50mm long to 95mm long 5mm wide to 12mm wide, hollow cores from 6mm to 19mm and from 65mm long to 95mm long - thats quite a range. Changing the tines (a set of 12) takes about 15mins. Its not all this though that makes it good its the fact that it punches into the green gives a flick and very quickly withdraws leaving a very straight clean hole. The action further heaves the ground and when you are walking behind a vertical action spiker you can feel the ground actually shaking and see it lifting. The only lifting you see on a drum spiker is when it has pulled the turf away not lifted it from underneath. The vertical action spikers work between sets of fingers and do not require rolling back down. The actions are entirely different and the vertical action spikers are just smaller versions of a vertidrain, a groundsman will remove most of the seasons surface compaction, below 100mm it is not so important. Very occasionally further action to break deeper seated compaction is required and a vertidrain used with care may resolve the issue. But this is normally caused by over use of an over heavy roller, use of the vibrating mode, over rolling when too wet, incorrect use of soils or just plain poor maintainance. I have seen plenty of very good squares with good grass cover and excellent playing characteristics that have never seen a spike deeper than 4".
Vid, we will have to stop this, i could not have put it better myself.
29 Dec 2008 by taffy Last edited 29 Dec 2008
i agree with you both on the fact that the vertical action is a different tool. but from what i can see the multi-tiner is effective in aerating and has not disrupted my surfaces obviously if there is no root at all then maybe if will lift up but i have used the groundsman and had this problem. The only way to relieve compaction is by heaving the soil and cracking the soil underneath which is not necessary on a cricket square is it? aeration and de-compaction are two very different operations and are often confused. I do not intend to decompact just displace the exisiting pore spaces within the soil for the roots to develop. And i appreciate your point vid about the range of tines etc. ga30 is a top machine. At the moment the multi-tiner is doing a good job.
30 Dec 2008 by vid
Your judgement is what counts Taffy, what I say is just an opinion - take it or leave it. I would say one thing though a cricket pitch very much benefits from 'cracking' or fissuring' it is this process that is helping the decompaction and the increasing of pore space within the profile. It is this that allows greater passage of air water and nutrients to allow greater root growth and thus improved plant vigour. Decompaction is aeration you cannot achieve decompaction without achieving aeration at the same time. Bad timing of spiking - and this is more prevalent with a drum spiker - can achieve a beautiful set of holes without achieving aeration of the profile or decompaction and in actual fact increasing the amount of compaction. When I started as a groundsman I spiked a hockey goal area that was saturated but with no sitting water with a drum 4" solid spker. I thought it would help the water drain away. What actually happened was the tine holes filled with water and the tyre marks puddled. This was because the forcing of the tine in to the wet surface pushed the soil sideways thus squeezing the pore space all around the tine, the water then had nowhere to go except in to the tine holes themselves - a totally negative effect.
Its true that a vertical action spiker would have faired little better but at least the heave element of the action allows the soil to move upwards and thus is less likely to further de-aerate it
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