hi all
want some help please ,
been asked to look after 2 cricket squares ,
1 x 15 tracks
1x 7 tracks ,
i will have to maintain the square and prepare tracks for matches to a decent standard of play ,
so from mowing the square to rolling and cutting wickets for games and marking crease etc ,
not sure on the number of games yet per week but wanted a rough idea of what to charge
so if any of you can help that would be great cheers
Nut,
That's a difficult one. Know of people who would spend a full time job looking after two squares. You need to be absolutely clear what is required of you. Ask for a schedule of works rather than a gentleman's agreement. If you don't get this I think you are on a hiding to nothing as the members will all want more than you are being paid to do.
28 Dec 2008 by pacman75cricket Last edited 28 Dec 2008
Hi
it might be helpful to have additional info
what would you be required to do would you be maintaining outfield as well or just the square.
Also who's equipment would you be using
How much time the club are willing to pay for your services.
Also make sure club has all equipment necessary unles you are providing.
Also remember to take into account the off season work as this has major effect on the quality of surface for the following season.
thanks for the replys
im am getting a schedule of works from them just wanted to get in front , also they have there own equipment , just the squares not outfield , off season works is extra , this is just to maintain the squares during the season
nut250,
Work out/find out how many hours you think you need to do the job and how many hours the clubs expect you to work on each ground. You might be surprised to find that the hours they are expecting to pay for are far fewer than you perceive neccessary to do the job.
Once you have agreed the hours then you will have to decide how much you need to charge. Are you to be self employed ? do you have another job to fall back on ? do these clubs expect to employ you as paye ? is the job, dare i say it, cash in hand ?
Depending where you live, it can be possible to earn £10/15 per hour running around with a rotary mower. A head groundsmans pay is going to be between £12/16 per hour employed. If you are to be self employed, you have to include your own class two national insurance. You have to provide for your own pension and holiday pay. You will almost certainly have to have your own public liability insurance. You will have to have a van/vehicle to get to work and to travel between jobs. If this is to be your only employment, how will you live through the winter months.
So much to think about. If the clubs concerned think it is only a £6 per hour job, then i would politely decline, even i would try to be polite. My geuss is, for the work to be sustainable for you, a minimum of £13/15 per hour will be required.
It will be interesting to hear what others think.
Hope this helps.
cheers bath
i do have a job already looking after a couple of other grounds, so it will be extra , but all above board !!
i was thinking somewhere between £10-15 per hour , it is local and i have all the above mentioned insurance etc.
Like Bath, I'd start discussions at around £15 per hour depending on exactly what they wanted, who's equipment was being used etc etc etc.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
28 Dec 2008 by vid
I dont know if this will help and I could if needs be quote 3 sources however when on sub contract I and others now charge well over £200 per day when away on a job , this includes all expenses, taxes, holiday, lay off periods, travel and accommodation and administration. If you take off the accommodation element thats still £160/day + or £20/hour. This is extremely tight to work to (it may not sound it but you're welcome to try running my business on less - ask my wife or bank manager!!). Unless someone can offer you a full salary all these other expenses have to be costed in or you will go broke. The trouble is that most cricket clubs dont want to pay a fair wage and will do anything to get it for less and will not listen to reason as written in this thread, what they all want is someone with a lot of knowledge and ability but no need for money - do you fit that category!! if not you will need your best negotiating head on - start high and come down - if you start low there is no going up
As a contactor our minimum charge for a full day starts at £150 plus travel etc etc. As Vid says start high and come down.
I would say be carefull what you set yourself up for. If you are already looking after 2 other grounds, looking after another 2 squares is a lot if you are on your own. Are talking about doing this on your own, if so, good luck and wait for the moaning to start cos you arent spending enough time on "their" square.
I havent done it myself but I have worked for someone who does a lot of grounds and he has a few helping him.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Nut250 I will give an outline of how i set up my contracts.
First thing is find out whether they are just wanting the square looking after or the square and outfield, if it's just the square then 10 hours is the minimum you will need paying for, it depends of course on what standard of cricket is being played, at the clubs I work for I do all the work, this sounds obvious, but some contrators may only do the cutting and marking out, rolling being very time consuming, this is left to the club. If they want the outfield doing as well then have a good look at what type of machine they have and try and work out how long it's going to take you, also find out if they want it cutting once or twice a week, if you are doing the outfield then probably 15 hours is the minmum you need a week. I would say though that if they have a full junior section from U9's to U17's I would look to get it nearer 15 hours just for the square.
Once the hours have been agreed I tell that this is for the 30 weeks from 1st April to 30th of October, I then get them to pay me for 2 hours per week for the other 22 weeks to keep things under control in the winter, when the final ammount of hours have been established then work out the cost and divide it by 12 and make this the monthly payment all year round, hence you get a regular income. I also write down what time I arrive and leave in a diary just in case there are any quaestions. As Bath has mentioned there is class 2 NI contributions there is also class 4 on your profits.
You will also need to establish who is buying the Loam and fertiliser etc.
Another thing to establish is what happens if there is a machine break down, I always tell the clubs that I am not a mechanic, I know the basics but if that doesn't work then I will call a machanic either my own or one appointed by the club, they are after all paying you for the green bits and not for spending hours fixing machines, it's also a good idea to have a good look in the shed and make clear if there is any equipment you need right from the start, also put this in writing and if they don't get it for you they can't say they didn't know.
As regarding price I charge £15 an hour it could really do with being more, but I don't think clubs will stand more at the moment.
I would say that if they are looking for quality wickets then you won't be able to do four on your own, I currently do 2 grounds and a school and I am negotiating a third cricket ground, if I get the third ground then I will have to take someone on, you would manage it if the weather was fine and sunny all week every week, but as we know it isn't and thats when you will really need the extra help, also if they have covers make sure you establish who's taking them off on a Saturday morning, you can't be at all the grounds at the same time.
3 Jan 2009 by nut250
excellent fellas thanks very much for the info much apprcieated cheers
5 Jan 2009 by steve hargreaves
Just as an addition - At our CC in the NW, up to last season, we hired a local groundsman to look after two squares total 22 tracks. He prepped one or maybe two tracks a week on each pitch and charged about £150 a week. We picked up all other spend (Loam etc) and he used our kit, which we maintained.
We now do it in-house, to club standard, and prob spend 10 hours on the squares/tracks. I finish at marking out, players roll.
Are the wickets now better, worse or about the same ?
Now, now Bath you know better the wickets dont change much made of ash, couple of bits of wood on top 
Are you attending next week??
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
I stand corrected. Yes i am.
hope to see you there, i wonder if the inflatable slide will be there again
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
Steve, Bath raises a very good point and it's one that has been debated on here many times, as regarding clubs not wanting to pay for a groundsman, I saw your
message and felt the hackles rise, I was going to leave it, but the grounds are frozen, I've taken the dog for a walk, hoovered up and got fed up of ironing, so I've got the soap box out.
You say you have 2 squares and 22 tracks and you were paying £150 a week, if you break that down at say £15 an hour then thats only 10 hours per week over 2 squares and you, as clubs always do expect the world, even if he was only charging a tenner an hour thats only 15 hours. At my grounds the contract is for 10 hours on a 13 track square, and 15 hours for an 8 track square and outfield, if you take 2 hours off for cutting the outfield on the second one thats still 13 hours on the square, I am currently negotiating a 16 hour contract with a club for a 13 pitch square and outfield, I got the offer because their chairman is an umpire and was impressed with the quality of my other grounds, we agreed a price but they've just come back and wanted to knock a £1000 off, I have gone back with a 3 year compromise deal, that gives me the same money over the 3 years, otherwise I am working for nothing and it once again undermines all the other groundsmens money in the area. I would guess your former groundsman said good riddance and went to find a job that paid better money.
I am now putting the soap box away.
Good on you Andy for actually saying what the rest of us were thinking. It is exactly this attitude that is completely undermining the value of good groundstaff.
I might just add to this by saying, my contracting arm has just lost another contract. My company was contracted to a club for 25 hours a week during the summer playing time. 18 wicket square, approx 120 games, all kinds a season, some with no notice. Cut the outfield twice a week during playing season, as and when needed out of season.
Provided all materials.
Use club mowers and roller, they dont have anything else.
Carry out autumn renovations.
Spike square 3 times during the winter, my spiker.
Total £13000k
Club cannot afford me anymore.
No discussion, no negotiating, but they are at least paying me up untill the end of March as per originall contract.
I have maintained this ground for at least nine years now. Two years prior to me taking the job on, they had been paying a groundsman £13000k full time.
How things change and i have to ask, what future. How can you possibly encourage youngsters in to the industry.
This club has always played in the top two premier divisions, untill now. Not many years ago, it was considered to be the top club around for miles.
I only have two grounds to maintain weekly now, along with one bowling club. One is a council ground and the other is the company ground belonging to a major Building Society. Whats my chances?
Bath,
That is bad news and sorry to hear it but good men will always get work.
The club wouldn't be the one that Marcus Trescothick played for by any chance?
I think though that thats just Baths point will he?, will we?, if someone with his reputation and experience is loosing work, then what hope is there for the rest of us lesser mortals, 6 months ago I would have said that attitudes were changing, but now I am not so sure, I had 3 clubs to speak to at the end of the season 2 have come back claiming they are skint, one is genuine as they have just spent 50k on a new pavilion and they have said they will be back at the end of the 2009 season to talk with me, the other though has just spent 10k on a new kitchen, priorities!.
A club also applied to come into the league and were refused due to the condition of their ground, I didn't know the ground but went to have look in October out of interest, the square was yellow from the boundary, when you got out there it also had poor grass coverage, plus moss and thatch, the ends had bare patches and had never seen a lute, I couldn't believe they had applied with the square in that condition. I therefor e-mailed the club saying to contact me for advice and if they wanted it my services, I have heard nothing, yet I have on very good authority that they are paying their pro 8K. Priorities!.
And we all know this senario is being repeated all over the country.
I know it's difficult at the moment but we need to remain positive. It's freezing nothing is going on, we are all just back from the break but in two short months clubs will be thinking of pre season rolling and once more the ball will start rolling. Gone are the days of the willing volunteer - for most clubs - and you guys will be back to 14 hr days.
Don't jump off the roof yet let's see what spring brings with it.
Ascott, my fingers are crossed that spring brings some sunshine :)
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Ascott,
Not the club you refered to. They have at last had some proper work done. Just remains to be seen how it is maintained now.
I'm with you JL, had plenty today though, a cracker.
Sorry to hear the bad news re jobs, but how many amateur clubs can afford £10-15K for a groundsman, and where does the income to pay him come from? It surely doesn't come from the grass he grows. The sort of figures mentioned above equate to about £100 per game in labour, let alone rent/rates, materials and equipment. You don't make that sort of profit on player subs so to get that money you have to raise cash another way - bars, hiring function rooms etc - or have a sugar daddy in the form of a sponsor (company?) who runs the ground at a loss.
Club committees have a responsibility to balance books, and many will decide that they can make major savings in budget by reducing groundkeeping costs. If they get income from the facilities outside of the boundary rope, they may decide to invest more there than inside the rope - and whilst that may be short sighted, it might be even more short sighted not to invest in a new kitchen. And it may be that if they don't hire a pro then they'll risk relegation, and then loss of spectators spending over the bar.....
A great playing surface doesn't win league titles or pay the bills - sad, but I think true.
Jon, 400 hours a year on the ground, about 40 matches to prepare for, paid £0, all expenses donated back to the club. Annual budget ca. £1K all in.
I'll get down off my soap box now. Sorry guys, I'm on my annual weight loss program so not had a bottle of the home brew for several days.....
The ciderman rolls
I agree with you totally jontaylor. But when i was in your position, as i was for twenty years, the club always found the money to spend on the square first. The reason being, that is where the cricket is played and without that there is no club. The committee's words, my sentiments.
Without volunteers there would be very few cricket clubs, but your suggestion of £100 per game labour is absolutely right, for the clubs who pay something and that only equates to approx six to eight hours a week.
Where i am now gainfully employed, me and one other look after two grounds. We are expected to provide total cover during all games apart from the evening games played at the second ground. In total approx 180 games. Labour cost is in excess of £250 per match.
We at our club are different to most, but that is reality.
You will notice from some of the job adverts, that average full time salaries fall between 18k to 30k. Thats an awful lot of money per match.
Jontaylor, what you do for nothing is all very laudable and as Bath says a lot of us have been there, I worked for 15 years without pay, but does your club really appreciate or realise what a valuable resource they have, if you packed in or couldn't do the job for some reason then who would do it, I know in most clubs that there wouldn't be a que and certainly not the skills, ok so a club spent 10k on a kitchen, yes they obviuosly needed it but 10k when you aren't happy with the ground. I don't know if your club has a pro but if they do then I think that they are almost taking you for a ride, you mention sponsors, many clubs will move hell and high water to get money in for the mercinary pro, who will dissapear the minute the money isn't there, but how many clubs would make that effort to pay a decent groundsman. The fact that your club spends just 1k on the ground backs up the argument that many of us here have made, that the gorund is the last on the list of priorities when it comes to money, a good ground might not necssarily win league titles but it will attract good quality players whether paid or unpaid and that will win league titles, I can hear the conversation now between your chairman and the visiting teams, "yeh the ground looks great and only costs us a grand", it's no wonder that Bath looses contracts, there is a compromise out there Jon and I have been lucky to find 2 clubs that have realised that, but they are still in a minority. The figure of 10k is inflated, 15 hrs a week for 30 weeks plus 2 hours a week for 22 weeks is £7410, a good groundsman will give you good quality pitches and a nicely striped outfield for that, which is less than many clubs pay for their mercinaries and whats more we as groundsman are expected to perform week in week out whatever the weather.
Jon,
All credit to you for your devotion to your club. You do a full time job and then another (unpaid) at the club. That is the way it always was when we who can go back a few years started out in the wonderful game. Unfortunately now there are not many with the time or as willing as you to leave other interests behind for the sake of the club.
A month or so ago you told us all how delighted you were to be awarded a county game next season and that is obviously due to the efforts that you have put in. They recognise that your club will offer them a good day out. However I wonder how many other members of your club will be there, particularly if it's a working day, or will you be doing the ground, hospitality and making teas?
As for the grounds making money issue, the club where I work has been teetering on the edge for a few years - like most other clubs - because of a stroke of luck, the County Club asked if they could play 13 days cricket here last season. This brought in the club an extra £25k, the difference between survival and more struggle. If money had not been spent on the ground, would they have come in the first place? I doubt it.
One also wonders about all those clubs who try to maintain old unsuitable machinery, spending out on repair bills and down time then having to get someone to walk behind it, when it does start. They have to insure this gear, store it safely etc. Would they not be better off getting rid of all that and employing a contractor with his own gear to do the job?
Lastly as Andy correctly points out, who takes on the mantle when the volunteer is sick or leaves the area? At my old club, where my son still plays, they have a fantastic ground regularly used for minor counties games. This is looked after by 2 of the most enthusiastic guys I know, for love. Neither is a young man, nothing lasts for ever. When they call it a day, that club will be in a serious position as they will probably have to start paying a lot of money to keep the ground in the condition it is now. Would the minor county come in and help? No they will move on to another soft touch.
I will have to employ you as my ghost writer Ascot. Very nicely put.
HOLD ON A MINUTE JON never suggest that
and where does the income to pay him come from? It surely doesn't come from the grass he grows
if we dont prepare pitches of any variety, people dont join clubs and turn up to play then the bar doesnt get used much etc etc etc without a groundsman most clubs wouldnt be around some think they might but they wont mate.
## soap box thrown##
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
I think its horses for courses. If a club can afford to pay a full time groundsman they probably should. Unfortunatley most can't so make use of volunteers or someone working the minimum hours ie cutting the square and tracks and leaving the rolling marking and repair work to the club.
I was given £60 a week during the league season to cover petrol costs last year but have waived that this year. This was on the condition that I got a £2k budget for the usual loam / fertiliser, machinery servicing etc - as well as the option of hiring in a contractor or machinery for specialist operations such as end of season renovations. This will hopefully mean the square sees a Graden come the end of September 09
Maybe cricket in N Lincs is massively different to elsewhere in the country? Around here there are very few paid groundsmen - I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of clubs in a 25 mile radius that pay their groundsman any more than trivial expenses. If they do have a paid groundsman they probably also run rugby through the winter.
Around here few players move to clubs because of the quality of the surface, they move to clubs in the top divisions. We've lost four of our best youngsters to higher league clubs in recent years - my own eldest son included - because they want glory or are told by county coaches that they have to play in the prem. Each of those youngsters will acknowledge that the playing surface at their new club is less good.
Yes we get a warm glow when the "top" clubs come to our ground and both batsmen and bowlers praise it - but we don't get them asking to join the club - because we're in Div 3 and they want to play in the prem. I think we need another 2 promotions before the tide changes and players come to us just for the surface.
And you're dead right about what happens when a volunteer groundsman stops. The last club I was at relocated to a new ground when I moved north - the old ground is now a sheep field.
The ciderman rolls
Tony,
As you know, I'm not very bright. Not sure where you were aimimg your soapbox but if it was in my direction, it missed and went straight over my head.
Jon you actually make a damning case for not paying groundsmen with your last post, from what you say the vast majority of the wickets in your league are not of any great standard, even in the premier league, therefor along with what I have posted above I rest my case. Perhaps the league and clubs should do something about this and provide funding for training for the groundsmen paid or unpaid to improve standards. It sounds like there is an attitude of "well thats how it's always been". I would add that if the standard is generally not good then your club needs to make extra sure they don't loose you. As regards the geography as you know I am not a million miles away from you.
No Vic, JT seems to think that clubs dont need groundsman, i agree a majority of clubs use volunteers my point was ALL clubs need a groundsman whether its paid, partially paid or a volunteer. BUT clubs tend to take ALL OF THE ABOVE for granted, most of the time.
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
Everybody's time is worth something, if a volunteer then chooses to donate that sum of money into the club coffers then good luck to them, but at least they have had the option to do this.
The persistent "lack" of payment of volunteers is, in my view the exact reason why wages in this industry have failed to move with the times as there are always willing volunteers to work for nothing.
7 Jan 2009 by Neil Dixon Last edited 7 Jan 2009
sorry, double clicked!
The outcome of this seems to be that cricket and cricket groundsmen are unaffordable, based on the finances that most small clubs have available to them.
You cannot pay a professional groundsman to produce a good standard pitch and ground for much less than £100. Even paid groundsmen who have an association with the club will be putting in much more time and value than they charge for. The council charge around £65 for basic and sometimes unacceptable quality, which I guess reflects rock bottom.
Even if you pay nothing for the time of a contract groundsman - I have been both sides of the amateur and paid fence - the materials, machinery maintenance, hire, services and year round overheads mean a pitch would still cost £45 minimum to produce.
The result is that smaller clubs continue to fold or combine with neighbours. The winners are those clubs with strong memberships, a busy bar and social scene, large playing areas and facilities which can be hired out, multiple interests (associated clubs, multi-sports, nursery schools), and thriving youth activity - with aggressive fundraising.
Bath's story does worry me a little, that a club which meets most of these success criteria has backed away from what seems to be fair value - and doesn't want to negotiate with someone they have been happy to contract for 10 years or so. Unless they have had an offer from a reliable amateur such as a retiring member to do the same work to the same standards for nothing - can't compete with that !
Charles,
My post has nothing to do with my PAYE employment. It sounds as if you may be getting things a little mixed.
Anyway nut250, i bet you were'nt expecting as many replies as this when you posted. Plenty of fat to chew on now.
7 Jan 2009 by vid
Perhaps we are not looking at this from the right perspective. I have the greatest respect for those people who put themselves out for little or no return - they are the reason why so much cricket still gets played. Well done to them and well done to the clubs that still stir this sort of enthusiasm and dedication from such volunteers. None of us professionals should worry about this at all. What I have a problem with is clubs that want professional groundsmen or contractors but begrudge them every penny. I now wont prepare cricket as small contracts as noone likes my price - I am well out of it.
The question that should be asked is if you like playing a good class of cricket on a good surface - how much are you willing to pay. Why is it that a £50 annual membership and some £10/ game for virtually a whole days sport is viewed by far too many cricketers as extortionate, yet they do not even blink when £25 is lifted off them for a round of golf (no umpires or tees or scorers to pay for) or to WATCH a football match. I cant for the life of me understand how the expectation is to pay more for watching than for playing - until this dynamic changes the situation cannot and will not improve
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"He not busy being born is busy dying"
7 Jan 2009 by MAVO
Hey Gordon,i bet i know where that money went that could of been spent on keeping you on that contract!
A couple of ex Bath players i think!!?
They certainly didn,t set the world alight when we played them!
7 Jan 2009 by vid
Joe you must be joking. If we were paid a decent wage threads like this would be non starters, several threads on this subject in recent weeks has not elicited a single 'I'm paid a really good wage that I can live happily on' and this from other sports that are considerably richer than cricket.
The management, professionalism and skill required of our top groundsman is almost in every case entirely unrewarded. Who would manage a team of workers produce fantastic surfaces under close scrutiny of the international press, work 14 hour days without overtime allowance for under £40G, its ludicrous and unfair in the light of what other professions are paid. It does show just how much we as a profession are expected to sacrifice for OUR love of the games we provide for
You're correct "Vid" I do have stars in my eyes.
When I left my previous employment I went college to do a turf course 'cause i love the idea of preparing a pitch on which players send down a missile with the express intention of, if not hitting the wickets, then hitting the batsman! That seemed to me to be the ultimate because the missile bounces on the pitch i prepared and that preparation is critical. Now that is being starry eyed!!!!
I felt later that I should have done a 12 month course in plumbing then me and our "Peg"would be really well off and she would see more of me than she does now from March till October!! On second thoughts, maybe I made the correct decision!! LOL
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
You might be right Dave, but they got relegated, i got shown the door !
7 Jan 2009 by Mike Last edited 7 Jan 2009
I'll guess I might as well throw in my two cents...
Does anyone know of any volunteer postmen, volunteer bankers, volunteer accountants, labourers, anyone know someone who serves up fish and chips on a friday night for free? I don't know of any, so why so many in this industry? How many workers in our industry work on a voluntary basis?
Where I live, nearly every cricket club aside from the school and council grounds are volunteer based. You can add bowls, football, rugby, every sport played on turf (aside from golf) you can think of is maintained by volunteers. Someone with the necessary skills 'should' be able to make a killing over here. If all of the clubs were willing to pay £20 per hour, a fair sized contracting operation could be supported, jobs could be created. Only problem is, nobody wants to pay a penny so its all done by volunteers. Last year I looked at setting up a contracting operation myself but I soon found out that it couldn't work because nobody would pay what I considered my time to be worth, despite this, my phone has been red hot with calls from people asking for my advice/help. That alone tells me that the clubs acknowledge that there is a 'skills shortage' at their clubs and they need professional help, so why won't they pay the going rate? In addition to this, there is one lawn franchise over here, god knows how many gardeners doing the rounds with a lawn mowers charging £20 per hour, yet no one will pay me £20 to give them advice that could save them cancelled fixtures? I came to the conclusion that the members of the clubs are the problem. Look at it this way, if the lights go out at a club, you can bet that one of the members is an electrician and he sorts them out for 'a couple of pints', same goes if the toilets are blocked, or if they need a new carpet etc, there is always someone who will do it on the cheap. I feel that this is how the majority of clubs get away without paying anyone, because at the end of the day groundsmanship is an 'unskilled job' in the public's eyes. So, because preparing pitches is 'unskilled', anyone can do it and that leaves a potentially huge workforce to choose from, some of whom are jolly souls who are willing to give their time for nothing, and that sort of outlook is why a number of contracters are looking at going out of buisness.
Let me ask a question. We'll take the RFU as an example. I think very highly of the RFU, they are a first rate organisation imo. Now, i'm aware of a grant scheme that the RFU run which helps clubs buy machinery and such like, I think they pay 50% in some circumstances. So, say I was looking after a local Rugby pitch for £5000 per year, do you think that the club could claim 50% of that back? Great, so a club can now afford a vertidrain but no-one can use it! Surely this is the wrong way round. Are the governing bodies unwittingly sending out a message that it's ok to use volunteers, "you don't need those expensive contractors". That message is killing our industry, small buisnesses are going under because of this, and its only going to get worse. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a dig at the RFU, they contribute millions to grass roots clubs and I condone them for it, should the funds be directed elsewhere though?
Mike, it's pretty much the same as any business. You can get grants (sometimes) for capital equipment costs, you CANNOT (in the vast majority of cases) get grants for personnel costs.
It think you hit the nail on the head when you say that preparing pitches is perceived to be 'unskilled'. Weirdly though I find that people perceive professional surfaces to need skilled groundsmen, but the club game is unskilled. How you change that perception I've no idea.
There are exceptions to the rule. I find my club to be quite appreciative of what I do, though I do get some stupid comments at times from people who I know do know better.
I think part (a big part) of the problem is that most clubs simply aren't viable. They run at a loss (even with volunteers). If they had to pay real rates for the work that was done then the club simply wouldn't exist. Take a look at most committees around the country and you'll find the vast majority of them have next to zero business skills yet you (the club member) are asking them to run your club.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
8 Jan 2009 by Mike
Jon, spot on.
About the grants, yes, you are correct in saying that in most industries, grants are for capital investments, but these industries are pretty much self sufficient and the staff are paid. We on the other hand, are looking at a shortfall before we even get to the capital investment stage because we cannot afford (or will not pay) for staff. In any buisness, the most valuable asset is its staff, so why are grants being directed towards capital investments when the rest of the house isn't in order. Again, its because they know full well that someone will make up the numbers for nothing.
Most clubs aren't financially viable but they continue to survive. Why do they survive? Two reasons, volunteers and fees. The problem is that the fees are nominal and the labour is free. Lets apply this to another industry, would you work in a shop for free, and would that shop sell its products at a price where they are only breaking even? It doesn't happen in other industries, why ours? Because, we are effectively mugs. No offense to the groundsmen who do give up their time for nothing, but you could, and should be paid for your time. What ever happened to a fair days work for a fair days pay?
Some people pay £50 for a pair of jeans, £20 of which is mark up, and of that £20, some of it will go to the sales assistant, yet most people don't bat an eyelid when it comes to paying. In our industry, someone might pay £50 per year in fees, £50 of which goes to the running of the club, and people begrudge paying that, why?
Sports, and sports entertainment is a huge industry, one of the biggest there is. Groundsmanship on the other hand is a fairly small industry, go figure? Why is groundsmanship a small industry, partly because of X amount of groundsmen, 75% or so work for nothing. If we were all paid, like in every other industry, groundsmanship would be a huge.
If all of the volunteer groundsmen started to charge for their services, do you think that sports would cease to exist? Of course it wouldn't, cricket clubs, football clubs, rugby clubs would have no option but to run as a proper buisness and they would have to charge accordingly. Look at the golf industry, how many greenkeepers are voluntary in comparison to groundsmen? Golf clubs, although many only break even, still manage to pay their staff. My local golf course was originally looked after by a group of very hardy chaps who maintained the course for nothing, over time the club employed paid staff, the golf club is still here and its thriving. All of these sports clubs who are fearful of going under if they have to pay to look after their grounds should take a look at the golf clubs. If golf can survive, so can every other sport.
If members pay £50 grudgingly how on earth do you think you'll get them to pay golf level fees. I know they should, but they won't and there isn't a committee around that would attempt to introduce that level of fee.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
8 Jan 2009 by Mike
Correct, there isn't a comittee around that would introduce such a measure, but until there is, this industry will not move forward.
There will come a time when the supply of volunteers won't meet the demand. At this point, clubs will be left with no option but to run in a similair manner to golf clubs, in so much as they will have to work out what they need to break even and then divide that amongst the members and other sources of income.
I'm not suggesting that someone has to pay golf level fees to join a rugby club that has 2 pitches for example. It's all relative, the cost of running the club divided by the various income channels. At present most clubs seem to divide the fees from an imaginary figure that falls a long way short of what the actual operating costs are.
Perhaps not for rugby (a game of which lasts what 80 minutes). But are golf fees unreasonable for say cricket which last a whole day.
During the summer I spend an inordinate amount of time at the cricket. In addition to the time spent doing the ground I also train 2 nights a week and play at least once. I reckon I spend anything upto 18 hours a week training and playing the game. Compared to most golfers I'm getting amazing value for money :) and still would be if I had to paid golf level fees.
I do believe that you are correct in that fees are derived from an imaginary figure.
In fact (from being on previous cricket club committees) the membership fee isn't really derived from any figure, it has absolutely zero relevance to how much it costs to run the club - the fee is literally set based on what other clubs in the area are charging and what the committee think the membership would pay.
Likewise the costs for renting out the facility isn't derived from how much it costs to provide the surface - it's just an guessed at arbitrary figure.
When I saw our hire out charges last year I asked;
Q. wtf did someone get those numbers from,
A. It was decided in committee.
Q. DOH, I bloody knew that, I asked where you got the figure from - ie did you just pluck it out of thin air.
A; we took last years' and added a small amount.
So it's not just the membership fees that bear no resemblance to reality.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
It is a problem that i find an answer will be difficult to find. Clubs rent out the ground locally to myself we charge a similar figure to other clubs but feel we would risk losing income if we charged much more as they would just go to another club.
Re membership the same thing applies you risk losing membership as people will play elsewhere & club is at risk through lack of members/fees.
What i find really annoying however is that in cricket funding can be found for coaching I was told by a coach at our club who has ecb level 2 coaching qualification so no has no huge amount of skills as we brought in a local coach for a few sessions to improve our skills during the season. That he could have enough work as a coach to work every day for something like £45 per day. It is annoying that coaching is available but what they are coached cannot be put in practice unless there is a skilled groundsman at the club but there is no funding other than assitance for Equipment.
Packman Re coaching you could treble that figure quoted but you see coaches don't work on a prepared surface. They work in Sportshalls, nets and on outfields. They are also teaching the future Pieterson's of this Country. Any money can be had for educating youngsters, unfortunately H&S doesn't allow kids to operate machinery otherwise he presto!
Sorry I've gone completely off thread time for more coffee.
8 Jan 2009 by nut250
no was not expecting that many , but good debate ,
the clubs i look after get an overseas player in every year and my arguement with them is why bring in a "professional player" and try to make him take wickets or score hundreds on a unacceptable pitch , better the pitch surely better standard of player , better results , better league position , eventually better league , and better club profile , so its not just about mowing grass its relates to everything as i said above ,
i know cricket clubs dont have much money and i try to help them out as much as possible like do odd bits foc but at the end of the day i need to earn a living and support my family
swings and roundabouts
cheers anyway for the responses , lets hear some more
In response to the question as to why so many people 'volunteer' themselves at cricket clubs, i think it's fairly obvious. Most volunteer groundsman have a vested interest in the club. Whether they are players themselves, have children who play or just wish to stay busy in retirement it doesn't matter. They are thankfully the reason that the vast majority of clubs can stay in business. My personal reasons for volunteering are that after a cr@p day in front of a computer screen there is nothing i prefer more than being sat on a roller with a pint and lovely view
8 Jan 2009 by nut250
there is no better job in the world than a groundsman thats why so many volunteer ,
i myself started as a volunteer , was a plasterer for years , dad a groundsman helped him out a bit and loved it , looked after a cricket whom i played for voluntarily and then started in the business , because it was far better than getting covered in plaster all week and of course fresh air
8 Jan 2009 by vid
Nut250, Going back to your opening question I think the main point a lot of us have made is be thorough in working out your costs so that you can justify the amount you are asking for in detail, don't undersell yourself as this is the position you will set for years to come and make sure that you include an inflationary increase as part of your contract with the club - next year they will most certainly expect to pay the same if you don't. If you read between the lines of what some have said here (I think Bath was the main one without checking back) you can end up 10 years down the line being paid pretty much the same - ie considerably less in real terms - and stiil lose the work because theyhave not allowed for a down turn in profit!!
Good luck!
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