Without commercial intent! and with the integrity of Wholesome Debate; What is your interpretation of the Soil Web?, it's current state?,it's potential? and how we may maximize this potential. I consider it to be fundamental to all our values" do You? With intended educational "purpose". Ian Mac.
This is a bit over my head but I'll give it a go.
A healthy soil=a healthy plant
Correct?
Now that may be fine for a lawn but most of us on here seek to produce a surface suitable for a given sport.
Reading the article "Effect a stress free change to fine grasses"
Article
the author states that most sports turf surfaces are relatively sterile and that this is caused, in large part, by the application of fertiliser (salt) thus causing a vicious circle.
So! To answer Ian's first question, I don't really have an interpretation of it other than what I've read. Although it makes sense to try and promote a beneficial cycle. Does this then detract from your sports surface though?
It's current state?
Er, do you mean as regards the pitch that I try to look after?
Dunno really, all I can do is observe it's behaviour, research and ask questions, and practice "cultural practices" to the best of my ability. How would I know if I had a beneficial cycle or not other than how the pitch/grass behaves?
It's potential?
As far as my own situation is concerned I believe there is enormous potential. With the help of various posters on this site I am gradually getting there.
How may we maximise this potential?
Dunno really. As I alluded to earlier preparing a sports surface isn't necessarily ideal for growing grass. The cricket guys are all discussing pre-season rolling to compact the soil/loam thus giving the grass roots nowhere to go.
I keep reading about USGA spec golf greens which, it seems , are predominantly sand, and thus, what nutrients there are, are negligible.
Top flight soccer clubs will have Fibresand/Desso pitches which again, as I understand it, means little or no nutrients.
Then there's the likes of me who's at the bottom of the pitch maintenance food chain!! 
I have a pitch built on a tip sometime in pre-history and a whole load of clay to deal with. As well as a hydrophobic soil and God knows what else?
Where do these beneficial bacteria/fungi come from and how do I encourage them?
Hope all this makes sense. At least I tried!! 
From the posh end of the room!!
8 Mar 2009 by vid
Ian are you referring to the Soil Food Web in general or have you something more specific in mind?
What we see of the plant is a by-product of what you actually have to manage.....................
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hi all lots of great effort here, look more towards the natural balance of the soil. Fungi/Bacteria etc.
mad4mud
Not much "wholesome debate" been stimulated yet, Mr. MacMillan.
I appreciate what you were trying to do though!!
From the posh end of the room!!
Hi all, and good morning to you Aladdin and as you stated,not much wholesome debate stimulated as yet? If I appear vague! then please except my apologies.The purpose of this thread is to see if we can stimulate research which is open to all within the power of the www sites. The Soil Food Web is of great consequence to all Turf Practitioners' and in order to maintain the botanical composition of our facilities we must! understand more, "What Lies Beneath"? So with that in mind I urge you all to look at Soil Life and it's related life forms'Soil Food Web is full of complexities and probably will never be fully understood? but as Professional's we really need to be aware of many of it's fundamentals' including,organisms,nutrients,ratio of fungi to bacteria,balance of nematods,arthropods,protozoa, etc.An elementary level of soil web knowledge would help us all so much in looking after our Turf. So! how's about taking a little time, grabbing some information ,and start debating it? We all become winners' Regards to all.Ian Mac
Hi Ian, hope your well. it doesnt help that the sun is shining and we all starting to tear our lil socks off.......
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Oh Barry. keep your socks on as April can be a cold one.Desite that I remain very well and more to the point, are you well? Kindest Regards to you. Ian Mac.
Found something interesting via Mr. Google;
http://eprints.rhul.ac.uk/408/
"Root-feeding insects appear to accelerate the process of early succession, while AM fungi retard it. "
AM= arbuscular mycorrhizal
I'm not quite sure if I've fully grasped this but are we attempting to "accelerate the process of early succession"?
It sounds like it but then root feeding insects are a problem aren't they?
Is it simply a question of balance?
Or is it a case of preparing a sports turf surface goes against nature to some degree?
Now I'm getting a headache!!
p.s. Keeping your socks on doesn't usually go down too well!!!
From the posh end of the room!!
9 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Interesting Mr MacMillan....
Fantastic concept, understanding the fundamentals of soil life and it's intricacies. A purposeful debate indeed. My fear though, is that this debate is in danger of never being able to begin....let me explain my thoughts.
In order to understand fundamentals (the basics) you need to think as Darwin did and look to initially debate/research the singlemost important factor/aspect/theory.
Perhaps a good start would be for you to choose this particularly relevant aspect to you (as the initiator of the debate).
This would allow other debators to look deeply into the scientific facts and theories to this one aspect and comment.
Once all debating were of a general consensus of opinion, we might look to capture the other relevant fundamental aspects (what these are decided to be, would of course, need debating firstly!).
A debate would then need initiating to decifer the order of importance to the fundamentals AND we would need to be sure that these fundamentals are indeed the 'real' fundamentals.
So, arriving at this point and with all the other relevant factors having been thought, sort and considered we might then well be able to start the real debate...
9 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Interesting Mr MacMillan....
Fantastic concept, understanding the fundamentals of soil life and it's intricacies. A purposeful debate indeed. My fear though, is that this debate is in danger of never being able to begin....let me explain my thoughts.
In order to understand fundamentals (the basics) you need to think as Darwin did and look to initially debate/research the singlemost important factor/aspect/theory.
Perhaps a good start would be for you to choose this particularly relevant aspect to you (as the initiator of the debate).
This would allow other debators to look deeply into the scientific facts and theories to this one aspect and comment.
Once all debating were of a general consensus of opinion, we might look to capture the other relevant fundamental aspects (what these are decided to be, would of course, need debating firstly!).
A debate would then need initiating to decifer the order of importance to the fundamentals AND we would need to be sure that these fundamentals are indeed the 'real' fundamentals.
So, arriving at this point and with all the other relevant factors having been thought, sort and considered we might then well be able to start the real debate...
9 Mar 2009 by jlawrence Last edited 9 Mar 2009
Ian, I read most of your posts with an open mind and this one is no different.
I've spent a day reading about the soil web survey wondering is this about to be extended to our isle or something - I could see in some areas (thinking commercial rather than surface maintenance) it would be useful.
Now I find you're on about something completely different - as per normal more headaches coming when I start thinking on posts way beyond my current level of understanding. I know it all helps in the long run but in the short term it's d4mn frustrating.
Aladin. Yes, I believe that some sports require surfaces that demand that you go against the wishes of mother nature. But then that's the intrigue in this profession - can you maintain the surface in such away that mother nature helps you to create the impossible or (if you've got the resources) are you good enough to play god over mother nature and produce the surface completely against her wishes.
The impossible being a sustainable situation which should never be sustainable (if that makes any sense). The ideal (to my mind) is to be able to create a playing surface (to the standard required) with minimal input (read manipulation) from our good selfs.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
9 Mar 2009 by jlawrence Last edited 9 Mar 2009
Thought I'd mention the reason I follow Ian's posts closely.
I get the feeling (from reading) that a lot of his ideas and methods (or knowledge to put it a better way) comes from handed down knowledge (I don't mean that in a bad way).
Hmmm, how to put this so it sounds right isn't easy (for me).
Most of my knowledge (limited) has come from books (or the web) or from current practisioners on this site.
That, in my opinion, limits me.
I find myself thinking that is a lot of something missing here. If you like, an inate understanding of what the grass plant needs (be it microbes, sugars, or whatever). With that knowledge can come an understanding of what is actually happening on my surface - something I often don't have.
I'll count myself as a youngster coming into this field - in so much as I haven't grown up in it (compared to some I actually am young 
) and I don't really have a mentor (the closest person I could call a mentor is way younger than me and he equally seems to be finding his own way). What we lack (I think) is a hand down of the old way of doing things - and the reasons why. Often, they may of not known why they were doing things but they worked - those methods are often not handed on to us noobies.
Ian (to me) seems to combine those 'old' methods with an understanding on how and why they actually work.
Long winded I know (wine to blame) but that previous sentence is the reason I follow Ian's posts very closely.
It is one of the reasons that this site is so good - I would never ever have interacted with the likes of Ian, PMC (and others) without this resource existing.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Gentlemen, I am indeed encouraged by the effort becoming noticeably evident and we begin to build on substance for debate. Visit www.soilfoodweb.com Allow this evolution of minds,internalize what your research affords you,keep an open mind? then lets all debate to our findings. It remains so important to understand the Biology of our Soils."What lies beneath remains paramount to what grows on Top" Ian Mac
9 Mar 2009 by Mal
Hi Jon
"The ideal (to my mind) is to be able to create a playing surface (to the standard required) with minimal input (read manipulation) from good selfs."
The ideal in this situation is letting mother nature do every thing, where by we can just come in to work and watch the grass grow supping tea from the the pavillion veranda all day because everything we do will have an effect on the soil one way or another. Thats tongue-in-cheek and never going to happen of course so the next best ideal is less means more i.e. to get the biggest returns from the least input. I sometimes wonder if things these days are a bit like the old nursery rhyme/song; Swallowing a cat to catch the bird to catch the spider to catch the fly etc. i.e. the more pesticides and fertilisers we use the more me need to apply to prop the whole thing up and keep it going. The same is going on in the human world too whereby we seem to have become obssesive about antibacterial cleaned surfaces, floors etc in the home so now we we are not so immune to what was ounce harmless bacteria. Perhapes we need to cast aside our obsessive/compulsive need for the prestign on our grounds and think abit more about what is important and how it can be managed getting the best out of it with the least input. So the ideal is working in tune with the whole ecosystem to get those bugs working to help the grass better withstand the diseases that are ever present in the ground
Geography is everywhere
I have not got a clue, but am i not right in thinking that most agronomists have been taught/educated since the 60's and that it coincided with the advent of cheap fertilisers for agriculture that has been passed down to the sports turf world.
This in turn made the grass grow great, it also encouraged decease. A whole new world of money making was launched and has been encouraged ever since.
Now there are one or two thinking outside the box and asking themselves this, what happened before cheap fertiliser ? There will not be to many left to tell us, so we had better listen good to those who are prepared to tell us.
Should encourage great debate.
Ian
Into the field i step! As somebody that has been a member on these pages for a while i normally only read, now as i get older and bolder i feel ready to have a say, dare i!?
In relation to the soil food web, it really is a hard subject to break down on sites such as this, i think really you can only get peoples views on it as anything else may take too long!
I was lucky enough (or unlucky) to serve my younger years at ESN (Mr Barber) and Birch Grove (great construction Mr Pace) at both of these we always seemed to dable in Fungi based products/ soil health, but at the time it still seemed to be regarded as "black magic" however to me it always seemed total sense, get the soil health right and the top will, to most extent look after itself!?
Since managing a succession of courses i have allways used this as a basis for my practices, and have always had good results, and all of these course have not been in good condition when i started with them, simply put to me the soil food web should be read, understood and put into practice by us all. it gets us all back to the basics of letting nature take care of itself and breaks the reliance of chemicals and synthetic fertilisers which to a certain extent have caused most of the problems that we find ourselves trying to rectify today?
Regards
Hi Peter,
I was only speaking about you with someone earlier this today!
Dable we did at ESN...... But how times move on! Black magic it is not!
I have carried out much research into the subject of the 'soil food web' and strongly believe that we as practitioners in soil management should be striving to encourage its very existance in our soils. Without it, plants struggle to survive in an otherwise toxic environment, brought on as you indicate, by pesticides and oil based fertilisers. I have had many interesting discussions/debates with Ian on this very subject.
Tea composting is one of the best methods of re-populating your soil food web.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Ken
I thought i felt a sharp pain in my back (something resembling a knife) at around 7a:m!! Only joking it was more like a kick!
I couldnt agree with you more, and its great that the soil food web is coming more into our thinking, it seem like only yesterday that i was on my hands and knees on the 16th west, rubbing a strange powder into thatch fungus!
I must say that i do not know of anybody that has committed fully to this type of maintenance programm, that has not benefitted or seen vastly improved results, in relation to ammounts of N inputs, levels of thatch and disease resistance.
10 Mar 2009 by vid Last edited 10 Mar 2009
I too follow these threads with interest as they generally provide an interface between the practical and the scientific/theoretical. I just wish Ian that you would 'chair' your debates by defining your own argument better I am always left with the impression that you know more than you let on and leave us to flounder around trying to find exactly what you are after and what you know!!
I posted this right at the start of this thread 'Ian are you referring to the Soil Food Web in general or have you something more specific in mind?' and it still remains unanswered even though several others have asked pretty much the same question. The soil food web is a huge subject very close to my core understanding of soil science and of particular interest, but saying in effect 'the soil web - discuss', is just too vague even for the keenest of us to debate it. The fact that grass wouldnt grow without microbial interaction is probably a revalation to some especially to those that immediately reach for the chemical cabinet when confronted by problems with growth.
why not present us with a clear debating point rather than a broad all encompassing non statement??
Hi Vid & Pete,
There has been much debate on this subject on "theiga" website and well worth a visit. It costs nothing to register, gives access to the forum, which covers some interesting subjects, particularly the 'soil food web'.
And maybe Vid, you will see why Ian Mac gets a kick out of turning on a persons thought processes?
Go on...... enjoy yourself and stimulate those brain cells some!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
10 Mar 2009 by vid
Thats just it Ken hes failed this time!!
Just logged on while grabbing a sandwich and i sympathise with the comments about understanding how the soil food web works.
Just to clarify there will usually be quite different food webs under a soil winter sports pitch and a 80/20 golf green but also a very big difference between a poa pudding and a healthy links course, both will have a soil food web one to grow poa annua and one to support fescue.
The key point is to decide what grass you want to grow and try and develop the food web that supports it. I have looked at analysis of a hundred or so food webs under different grasses on golf greens and they vary from bacterial dominant under poa annua to about equal amounts of fungi and bacteria under fescue and bent.
It is a complex subject to understand fully I have a few articles going into print in the next few months which may help a bit but meanwhile will be happy to share what little knowledge we have via email.
Its a very busy time of year but when things quiten down a bit we will restart our seminar programme which may shed a bit more light.
I must also point out that even the scientists that have been researching the subject for many years and managing a lot of PhD students will freely admit that we know little about the total picture we are learning as we go along. Hopefully we will be wiser when the spring SFW analyses results are collated
10 Mar 2009 by Mike
Martin, I notice you say that "we will start our seminar programme". I gather from that statement that you work for a company that specialises in the soil food web area? Please excuse my ignorance, but may I ask where it is you work please?
Mike
Let's re-visit the interpretation of what this thread seeks to achieve? A stimulus of mind tisssue, a realisation that you may know more this evening than you did yesterday.
Four Questions
Your interpretation of the Soil Food Web?
I'ts current state?
It's potential?
And how we may maximize this potential?
So let's start with question one.
What is you Interpretation of the Soil Food Web?
Keep it in general context without being specific to root zoone type, or botanical composition"
Vid, indulge a Veteran? For like us all, you have so much to give! and much more to get! Martin, you are correct to it's complexities" but does Nature ever answer in comprehansible narrative? Ian Mac.
10 Mar 2009 by vid
Ok Ian, fair enough. I personally think that in general the soil food web is in a pretty poor state because of our reliance on the 'medicine bottle'. Strong fertilisers and horrific poisons are not the way to promote a healthy balance below our cherished grass. why when we wish to restrict one pathogen are we determined to destroy a huge number of beneficial microbes as well, it is poor husbandry and shows how bad education on the subject has become. The chemical industry has somewhat hijacked both agriculture and horticulture for more than half a century now. Soils have become increasingly sterile and to prove it we even install sterile rootzones so that we can 'control ' them - madness.
On an agricultural level the world has already gone way past a natural production level. We already would be unable to feed ourselves without human intervention and enhancement - does this mean however that we need to do it in such an unsympathetic way. It gladdens me immensely that the subject of the 'Soil Food Web' and a more sympathetic approach to crop and amenity production is finally being sought, in an age wher we can unravel and understand DNA we still have scant knowledge on how plants achieve their uptake of nutrient.
For too long the developed world has turned its back on nature and pursued a course of gradual but disastrous depletion of natural reserves - how long will it be before we get to a real crisis point - shouldnt it worry us all
Thank you Vid, an eloquent,valid, and respectful post.(but) more? it demonstrates, you do, have a lot to give. So vid,what of it's potential? and how may we maximize this state? See it to conclusion vid and benefit your efforts. Respectfully" Ian.
10 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Soil food web, spiders web, inter web, candy floss! They're are all connected somehow! (Generally via Carbon as everything is)
Who came up with the term/expression soil food web anyway? Lets start at the beginning at least! I find it aids understanding and for members who are looking into opening discussion to this thread (who may well otherwise read and never contribute) it might be the catalyst that provokes thought ...... and typing!.
It is my humble opinion that if you start asking for peoples interpretations you quickly enter into a confused and perhaps argumentative state, as after all, we all believe our opinion is correct (well it is, it's our opinion, therefore it cannot be incorrect). Not an ideal debating opening, especially on a subject that is clearly, not very well understood.
I'll look into it post haste.....
10 Mar 2009 by vid
To my mind the Soil Food Web extends from the inorganic through to the organic spectrum, loams and minerals - bacteria/fungi and other microbes - microscopic invertebrates - nematodes and insects - plants and animals to us. The fact that we do not live IN the soil does not mean we are not part of it. All systems are cyclical, all systems rely on the cycle being in balance, upset the balance and the cycle will breakdown by varying degrees.
Without looking to find out other views this is what the soil food web means to me. It is life itself, without the symbiosis that the soil and all its constituent parts need to maintain a living balance we could not exist.
Without at least a partial understanding of how our environment works, how can we as custodians of a substantial proportion of land area expect to look after its interests
11 Mar 2009 by ian macmillan Last edited 11 Mar 2009
Poa 7, in a generic sense the Soil Food Web could describe the whole of the biology of the soil beneath our feet. However, this life form has changed so, so, much in the last sixty years" How? well that will come, or do you have the answer's now? Debate is never Unilateral and can only be fully fostered by exchange. Do as vid has undertaken and have a wee go at selecting your own values! and hypotheses on this critical populous of this cosmopolitan life form. After all poa7, it is not so important to have all the answers as to be hungry for them! Please continue to add value to this thread,as your input is as important as mine. Regards to you Sir. Ian Mac.
You might find this of interest (if you don't already know, of course). I did:
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach_pgs/a_03_sfw_box_dgrm_lrg.html
From the posh end of the room!!
11 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Mr Mac's input
"Soil Food Web could describe the whole of the biology of the soil beneath our feet. However, this life form has changed so, so, much in the last sixty years" How? well that will come, or do you have the answer's now?"
Ah ha! Mr Mac, are you debating here? I don't think so! Looks suspiciously like a leading question. Maybe the should do as Vid too!
Once the originator of the thread contributes with his thoughts, I will do with mine, as at this point I will have a genuine understanding of what you really want to debate!
With the greatest respect - as always
My thoughts are that the soil food web is a way of describing the ecosystem of the soil. It refers (I think) to everything that interacts with the soil. In that it's not just referring to the soil beneath your feet (ie the nutrients, micro doodaa's etc etc) but also the air around you the amount of sun, rain, wind etc etc. Everything that can and does interact with the actual soil in some form or other.
The required web would be determined by the crop that you are wanting to produce and the soil that you're trying to produce it in. No two soil webs would be the same which would make debating very difficult (interesting at best). The basic constituents might be the same between 2 sites, but the actual specifics of the web could well be considerably different.
I suppose that if you could understand (sufficiently) the required web for your circumstances then it could help create a better understanding of what is needed when something isn't happening correctly. Even if you do understand it, I'd like to see (or hear) anyone trying to explain to their committee why they want to buy xyz - ffs they struggle to understand that you can't roll a cricket pitch when it's under water, what chance have they of understanding something that guys with phd's don't yet understand.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Some very good thoughts on here I can maybe help with a couple of answers to direct questions.
The term SoilFoodWeb was coined by Dr. Elaine Ingham at the University or Oregon who with a like minded team and many PhD students researched soil biology using electron microscopes for 20 odd years, she then set up a company SoilFodWeb Inc to commercialise the concepts.
As a teacher she is one of the best - putting the information into a form that the people that work with soil can understand. As the above link from Aladdin shows you can find out about the practical applications of the research at www. soilfoodweb.com
They have built up a datbase of approx 20,000 bacteria and 15,000 fungi plus higher echelons of the web which can be compared to samples taken from analysis so to answer Jlawrence this is how we identify what we see when we analyse the soil biology under different grasses and why the soil biology is different under poa annua, rye, fescue and bent so you can start to develop the biology needed for the grass you want to grow.
To answer Mike A I do work for a company that specialises in soil biology but the rules of the board do not allow me to mention it.
11 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 11 Mar 2009
I once read that 'there is more life in a handful of soil than human beings on the planet'.
Now, if this rather presumptuous statement is correct (considering the above from Martin), it would seem we have a long way to go with this discussion! lol
Poa7
with six numbers and bonus you have a 1 in 14,000,000 chance of getting the lottery right, with approx 1,000,000 microbes per gram of healthy soil and approx 35,000 known bacteria and fungi plus nematodes, flagellates, amoeba, cilliates and arthropods in the soilfoodweb we could be discussing the permutations you need all night.
However, while this may be more in Ian's philosophical arena, there is more life in a handful of soil but on the plus side the meaning of life for a soil microbe is more easy to understand than for us hmans .
Now back to work
Gentlemen, I'm in awe that such education should visit my thread! yes awe" why? Well you see, whilst the input of this thread of recent is truly wonderful, representing facts of Science that greatly enhance our capabilities,well maybe streching our capabilities would be more akin, (but) seriously gents" this is all good stuff and we are learng from it's content's. Please keep it coming? and poa7 sometimes leading questions are the bedrock of debate? With much respect. Ian Mac.
11 Mar 2009 by Poa7
But it's not the bedrock I'm asking for your input in, it's everything above it isn't it!?! If you know what I mean? Chuckle, all the best!
Well, I feel this topic is way above my level of knowledge.
I am looking at a totally different approach to this season, rather than just reaching for that magic bottle, I now think of what I am going to apply and what harm it will do underneath. I suppose less is more sometimes.
After using sugar for the first time last year and increasing the amount of aeration I have found that my greens are in pretty good shape, even though I have not applied any fert since last October, also my fungicide apps are way down on the previous years.
As for the soil web, I have no idea how this works, but I do feel that what we put on top has a direct influence on what goes on underneath.
Also I am eager to learn more about this and have enjoyed all postings so far.
Hell" Poa, theirs time enough for my input yet! time enough?
has 2 mow" you say, above my level of knowledge? but it appears "not" to your competance level. Well done with your new found skills'. With best wishes,Ian Mac
11 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Looking forward to that then Mr Mac! ;-) Once you do, then I will too....
Well done has 2mow sticking with that method but include your own brew of compost tea will eventually reduce your fungicides to zero applications but only with plenty of aeration as a matter of fact.Like Ian,i wish you well.
mad4mud
Mad4mud
As in aeration you do mean the turf and not the tea , have read about compost tea recently , with the doc ??
brewing beer yes , but compost tea where to start must do a google again , as i keep koi carp i have a air pump
koi is about keeping water quality , as is greenkeeping about soil life then
has2mow
Mr. mow,
If you copy and paste the link I gave above and then scroll down the nav bar on the left to 'C', "Understanding Compost Tea" you might find that of help. Hope so.
From the posh end of the room!!
Hi Aladdin
Thank's for the link , well me and computers not the best man about lol
on apple is that apple c then v copy , or ill just type it in as norm
cheers has2mow
My apologies, Mr. Mow. I made assumptions that I shouldn't have done.
If you go back to the post containing the link, drag your cursor acroos the whole of the link with the left mouse button held down. It should highlight in blue.
Right click and a menu will open. Left click on "Copy" and the link should be saved in your browser.
If you're aware of tabbed browsing then open a new tab, position your cursor in your browsers address bar, right click to open menu, left click on "Paste" and the link should appear in the address bar. Then click on the arrow or "Go" whatever your browser/system uses.
If tabbed browsing means nowt to you then left click on the address currently in the address bar and it should highlight in blue. Press "Delete" and the current address should disappear. Then it's as above but this method means losing your current page.
Hope that's clear.
From the posh end of the room!!
11 Mar 2009 by roon
I don't understand most of what is being said here, but it is interesting to witness a new line of thought that appears to disapprove of the mass chemical attack that we subject our sports fields to.
I think that most of the readers of this site are amateurs who try their best to create a decent pitch in their spare time, so we rely heavily on you professionals to save us research time by posting your knowledge.
This is not to say, however, that we are averse to trying to actually understand what we are doing - just that time is of the essence.
Keep talking.
Now, where's that website Aladdin was on about............?
Mr Poa7, you got a deal?
" IT'S TIME TO PUT YOUR SOIL IN REHAB?"
roon,stay the course and the essence of time will become transparent!
Gentlemen" today, courtesy was to be demonstrated by all" let's not falter as we progress. Thank you,Ian Mac.
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
ian
I don't mind being sold to but I do object a little when after two years you still haven't got to your pitch.
I am going to ask you (with all courtesy) a simple question:
Is this whole drawn out debate, simply a preamble to you trying to create a market for your mollases and seaweed bio additives?
If not and I've misconstrued the situation please put my mind at rest. If so, would you please just get on with it!
Your respectfully
Steve
My Dear Zoid, firstly,good morning. May I, in the first instance, assure you that this is no preamble to selling anything! Preamble maybe? but if so?a preamble to a stimulation, a catalyst to learn more of the very foundation on which our turf grow's in. Sure I have interests in some products' but my interests are far greater within the development of our profession, and the People who practice it. The important thing here Zoid is "not" to stop researching, asking question's, as curiosity has it's own reason for existing. I have time today! and therefore will make a start to my story. With Respect, Ian Mac
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7
has2mow - On a Mac it is
Command C (cmd + C) to copy
Command V (cmd + V) to paste
If you have the mouse
Control (ctrl + click of mouse) and either select copy or paste.
Hi All
As alluded to by Mr Zoid we can get bogged down in products - this product, that product, apply x number of times per year etc.
What we need to do is to come to a conclusion as to how best to prepare a playing surface on the ground we are paid (or on a voluntary basis) to look after. This will take into account the sport, the underlying soil, what we want to acheive and the avaible resources, eg equipment and money.
All this is only possible by understanding the effects of what we do on the soil and turfgrass species under our care. We can do this by using our eyes and observing the effects, and also by studying subjects that will tell us why we are seeing those reactions. When we understand what it is we are trying to achieve, then we can look around for help, whether from using equipment or applying materials that give us the results we look for.
So lets continue the voyage of discovery by seeing as many as possible contribute their understanding, knowledge and questions to this debate insead of waiting for someone to give an difinitive answer to everything.
And let's have some fun while doing so!
Andy Turnbull
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
Good Morning!
Andy,
You say we shouldn't 'get bogged down in products' but you seem very keen to do so when selling 'molturf' (I assume in partnership with Ian?) on your website carbsforturf?
Ian/Andy
I think it would have been far more honest of you to declare your commercial interests when launching your products.
To have one poster on here championing anothers' views, only to find out that they have a joint commercial interest smacks of deception.
How many more posters on here and on the IGA website have an interest in your products success?
Again, if I'm getting it wrong please put me right, just so we can have a little transparency.
Regards
Steve
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 12 Mar 2009
Hi Andy,
Quote - "So lets continue the voyage of discovery by seeing as many as possible contribute their understanding, knowledge and questions to this debate insead of waiting for someone to give an difinitive answer to everything."
I don't think that anyone (a) could give a definitive answer (b) is waiting for or expecting a definitive answer (c) really understands what debating is about! (d) is falling for 'the voyage of discovery' debarkle
It seems pretty clear that you are simply 'poisitoning' yourselves in the 'market place'.
Come on now! Own up! Then the fun can really begin!
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7
By-the-way
Zoid, you are spot on my friend!
Well Mac you have started another very interesting debate I believe with the best of intentions but I can understand how some may misconstrue, to be honest I don’t really care if there is a hint of commercialism as I personally feel that the enhancement of the soil food web is the way forward so, I enter the fray at this stage as I have been getting my head around how to respond to your questions.
As poa7 stated in a previous post “In order to understand fundamentals (the basics) you need to think as Darwin did”
My interpretation of the soil food web based on the research I have done is that it is the reason for life, responsible for our existence. So to say it is important that we understand it is rather an understatement.
Let me explain.
Life on earth began about 3.5 billion years ago when living organisms were simple like present day bacteria that contain no nuclei (prokaryotes), as life progressed and these became more complex one form of evolution to develop was the type of photosynthesis that produces oxygen and carbohydrates and is present in all green plants. These organisms along with animals, fungi and algae evolved to contain nuclei (eukaryotes).
A soil food web exists on many trophic levels where one level is food for the next; the first level is made up of the plants, lichens, moss, photosynthetic bacteria and algae, the primary producers that fuel all food webs.
The primary producers release organic matter into the soil. The second trophic level, decomposers, mutualists, pathogens, parasites and root feeders feed on the plants and the residues that they make. These by products from growing roots and plant residues feed the soil organisms.
The third trophic level is made up of shredders, predators and grazers the protozoa, nematodes (fungal/bacterial feeders) and micro arthropods. The fourth level is made up of higher level predators namely predatory nematodes, these feed on other nematodes they will not touch plants so act as a control measure protecting the plants by consuming the root and plant feeding nematodes that exist in the soil food web
In a symbiotic relationship the soil organisms support plant health as they decompose the organic matter, cycle nutrients, enhance the structure and control the population of soil organisms including pests.
iwq1862, your entry is timely and with great purpose,thank you.
It was to start just after the second World War? as one great war finished another was just about to begin? The lethal chemical weapons used in France to gas troops in their trenches were to be modified and derivatives were thrown up to encounter the next great battle. This time the battle was to be taken to a hidden army lurking at home-the weeds growing in our fields that were holding back the production of food the country so desperately needed. One of the most fearsome chemical went by the name of 4-chloro-2-methylpenoxyacetic acid, but you will know it as MCPA (GOT YOU ATTENTION NOW) This was to be a great hit with the farmers who would witness this powerful chemical, a hormone weed killer twist,and contort the target weeds before their inevitable demise. These chemical killers were created in the laboratory, their molecules manipulated,one atom substituded for another, and before the end of the century there were well over 300 different chemicals approved for use on our farms and golf courses. The damage is now very apparent! and not just to ourselves,but are destroying the very source of our sustenance. Now! this, is where my story begins, and indeed, end's as this is when the Soil Food Web was to spiral out of control to it's present depleted form. This is the end of my first entry on my interpreation of a currently non-sustainable Soil Food Web?
Without prejudice to commercial gain. Ian Mac
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 12 Mar 2009
Great stuff Mr Mac, a wonderful introduction to the problem of ‘pesticides’ alluring to the herbicide spectrum in this instance.
It may also be interesting to note, for purposes of debate of course, that the use of chemicals to suppress growth is not actually a human made concoction as nature itself has been doing this for a lot longer than us, through a process we call – Allelopathy – go on, have a Google! Nature is by far, the greater power!
Dandelion is a very simple example (production of ethylene – in this case in gas form - to inhibit growth of the plants around it).
In order to allow others to enter this debate, as I have stated earlier in this thread, I feel it is of the utmost importance to clarify what exactly the ‘soil food web’ is and what it is about. For some members viewing Mr Mac’s thread, it may well be easier to try to explain the basics here rather than find out elsewhere.
I also feel that sometimes it is easier to get the ball rolling with a little guidance than to simply say – Food Web, DISCUSS! Unless of course you are well used to researching subjects.
I have chosen to attempt to explain (in a clear an unbiased fashion) the basic interactions with plant growth and development, looking into both the Biotic & Edaphic factors
Here is my contribution.
(PART 1)
Biotic Factors – organisms
Edaphic Factors – Soil conditions
Ok, here we go –
Biotic factors: Plants (producers) in competition with each other AND Consumers (animals) in competition with each other. The interesting thing here is that generally plants take in C02 and release 02, while the animals take in 02 and release C02. NOTE – Plant roots take in 02 and respire C02
Biotic factors also encompass light energy, rainfall, temperature and wind. Climate strongly dictates what grows where. Think of a greenhouse, as generally in these, we can control the climatic conditions and encourage growth of whatever we like!
Edaphic factors: Decomposers that live in the soil, generalised as Fungi & Bacteria – still lots to learn about here! In many instances (like the producers and animals) this soil life is in competition with each other.
Most importantly, for both the Biotic & Edaphic conditions there is a ‘cycle of nutrients’ & a food chain.
Now, looking closely at the organisms, animals and plants we see that they can interact with each other, and their non-living environment, BUT, the cycle of nutrients is more or less closed!
These activities, interactions and cycles play a significant role in the health & type of sports turf we can produce and manage. This is dynamic and diverse sphere that is still being studied and understood today. Hence the difficulties in debating and understanding a subject we DO NOT fully understand. But hey, let’s get in there!
In my next installment I will try to establish the basics with he following:
PART 2 - Plant growth (as we are talking sports turf).
Then look at
PART 3 - Factors that effect growth.
Poa7, I actually think Food Web, DISCUSS! is a good way of going about things.
That way you're likely only going to be discussing things (at least at first) with people who actually can be bothered to look into things - I'm hoping to get a couple of hours tonight to read up on it a bit so I can at least ask a few reasonable questions.
It could be that this Soil Food Web is the thing I've been searching for - ie the way that people used to do things in the past all be it without the understanding of what it actually was they were doing. I do believe that the best way to manage my surface will likely be a marriage of the past and present - ie using organic methods with current machinery rather than just buy a bottle and kill the stuff.
I'm about 99% sure I'm missing something on one of my squares, but the 'basic' route of finding out things isn't delivering results. I put this down to a lack of understanding of what is actually needed within the profile in order to get the best results from it and how to identify is one something is lacking. I speak to some people and all I get is try bunging some of this on, personally I don't mind bunging something on but only if I know it is being done because of xyz.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7
That's great Mr Lawrence, you obviously have an open mind.
My 'discuss' point was not meant to point blame or say this is not the way to do things, indeed sometimes it's the best way. However ..... Sometimes, a little guidance helps get to the real crux of the matter in cetain situations, and there is a crux to all this as we will find out....
Personally, and I repeat, personally, I don't think the 'food web' persay, is the answer you are looking for, however a good understanding of agronomy/soil/plant/environmental science will lead to good practice in the field. There is nothing new here apart from a term - soil web - that is trying to encompass all.
The food web is a mix of everything, genetics, plant science, morphology, soil biology and processes, chemistry, zoology, you name it....
Over the past 10 years our industry has begun to open it's eye's a little more to the science behind things.....but some eye's have been open for longer than others.
It's good to get this out there..at last!
Hi Poa7, every deal has considerations! you have just fulfilled yours. However,with your superb post you have diminished much of my descriptive conclusion to the Soil Web
(but) you know what? you did a better job of it than I could have,and as I have expounded to fact that this thread is purely to enhance our people's knowledge of one of the most important things that they will ever learn? and to that fact,and that fact alone, then Mr! I thank you for raining on my Parade.
Organic chemical, compounds,etc of course there are! One thing about them though? nature was to place them all in balance, and to try and compare the" lab" bad boys such as 4-chloro-2methylphenoxyacetic acid to natures natural chemical process as with your example of Allelopathy bears no comparison,and could be viewed as comparing a BMW with a Fiat Punto. We also must realise that Natures Components contributed to the Soil Food Web, unlike man's ravage of it. So Poa7, well illustrated for debate purpose" but so much out of context! I look forward to Part 2 and 3 and in the mean time, this old greenkeeper will continue with his wee story, so draw up a chair? Ian Mac
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 12 Mar 2009
and lastly, there will be many more out there reading this thread, now, whether they will choose to participate or not I do not know, but the knowledge available is vast. I for one, hope they choose to post....
Perhaps Mac??
With your experience with bowling greens, and I guess that you have honed your 'system' up there north of Hadrian s Wall, my understanding is that you are increasing the micro-biologics in the soil (in very simple terms). So in turn, this extra life will enhance the amount of air (oxygen) that can be held in the soil (in simple terms). Does this mean that in a bowling green scenario, it will be only the ends that will need regular aeration? And to follow that on, will moss now become a thing of the past on your bowling greens that are now well topped up in the micro whatever thingies??
I hope you get my drift here?
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 12 Mar 2009
Have I really diminished your conclusion with these few words? If you want people to learn so much have you considered writing an article on this very subject? There is so much more to give is there not? I feel sure you have the abilities and contacts needed to get it publshed?
I somehow feel that with this, you have not gotten the usual reactions to your posts and now you feel somehow cheated? Am I correct? Should I fade into the background and let you play some more?
Phil
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
Phil
No!
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
Like, JL I'm keen to find out more about soil science, without all the drama Ian insists on bringing to the table.
I await part two with bated breath.
Hey zoid; Ian's drama has been sustainable for over forty five years within this industry will you still, or even now get a full house at every matinee? would you?
mad4mud
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
I would if I did a strip in a bath of eels but it wouldn't help anyone understand the processes at work in our soil?
As i have no idea about the soil web, i have been doing some light reading on this , i do feel that , without the use of fungicides /pesticides that we will need to look at alternatives to kick start our soil life
just maybe the start of using compost tea ?is what we are looking at here
i maybe barking up the wrong tree but time will tell
Poa7 and Alladin
Thank's for the computer course
12 Mar 2009 by aturnbull Last edited 12 Mar 2009
Hi All
Come on guys, let's keep the disagreement in presentation style out of this. I also shall ignore the public attack on my character and intentions. As Poa7 has informed us, this subject is huge and has a large bearing on the effects of turf maintenance operations.
I have recently been involved in helping farmers get the most from their cattle, ie milk. The best way? Soil management through encouraging healthy microbial activity. The bacteria from cows stomachs are expelled and fall into the soil. The grass around these pats is not eaten, grows unhindered and seeds. The seed is coated by the same microorganisms and is healthier and more robust than seed grown for supply. The resulting grass is coated with these microbes and is eaten by the cow, taken into the stomach and gives a healthier animal, more milk and livelier calves.
When managed in this way, supplemented with sea weed based feed, farm animals are far healthier than those reared with high protein (nitrogen) feed.
Relevance to turf care? Just that it illustrates the importance of this Soil Food Web. Everthing comes down to the number and activity of soil microbes. For example, applied fertiiser has to go through a microbe before the grass can take it in. Lets study and learn together.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
Hi Poa 7, not sure what the usual reactions to my post are? however I am delighted with the reactions to this one. Many are learning and if I can make more opportunities for other's than I find for myself then there is no need for you to fade into the background.You have knowledge,share it,take the plaudits! me? I'll play some more. I salute your knowledge but always remember one thing? Years teach more than books. Looking forward to part 2, then,3. Best Wishes Poa7
Ian Mac
Again, without commercial intent.. lol............. from the work I have done and research over last couple of years working with deep probe air blast aeration one point thats been missed or is not highlighted enough IMHO from all this brewing and stewing malarky and shennanigans and is the crux to what you all need to do regardless of what you apply is to make sure that the environment is suitable for the ''web'' thats weaving below the soil and for what you hope to achieve.....
Now we have looked at injecting this and that, adding bugs and stuff but over here the machine I am involved with is not quite there yet, there is talk of the blast stripping the bugs, they dont like the pressure see, stress it gets us all,.. but that puff of air, its seems like a stimulus, for the ''web'', its more like a massive eco-system to me......, to start doing what it should do, allowed to breath and not drown but live...
So anyway point to make is, manage the environment to allow it to flourish and the ''web'' will do its thing...............
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
Exactly Barry.
Still, for those of you who want to spend £100 on some refined cane sugar, Ian and Andy's Molturf is available in the pitchcare shop. We got there eventually.
We'll know in due course whether it works or not?
No attack Andy, just a few pertinent questions which didn't get much of a response even though you had the same public forum to do so.
Why you are so reticent about your involvement in the answer to all our soil web problems I really don't understand? I would have thought you'd be shouting about it?
Anyway, this is Ian's thread so I'll leave him to it before I get banned again.
(I'll be watching for your next episode though Poa7)
12 Mar 2009 by Dave
Zoid,
You didn't get banned last time, and if this debate gets into sugar it will be removed.
Cheers,
Dave
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Ah, here we are once again Ian. I like speaking with you :-) There is always something in your posts to excite.
Years teach more than books in this case? Wow, the times these words have been uttered! Mostly seen leaving the mouths of established members of governing bodies, concerned that science is the wrong way or intrinsically worried that he/she may know more than me!
Science is the wrong way, when your looking for commercial gain ..... and this has been the problem in the past and no doubt will be in the future too.
I could choose to spell out my experiences both here and abroad in order to gain 'respect' from others, though I choose not to! It gets boring and time served is meaningless without purpose! Wouldn't you agree?
I think that generally, you can gauge someone's foundation through their words and on forums it is the only way. Your own experience will tell you if the words make sense or not!
We could debate this in another thread Ian - Funny how things change though as many of the so called 'experienced' folk now turn to university/college courses, workshops, the internet and forums for answers! - very interesting indeed!
With respect to you Ian
Good evening Poa7, like you I appreciate out exchanges, and I would not imagine it necessary for you to solicit respect either in this country or indeed, abroad. Poa! let's move forward with this! sharing the respect we send each other. After all" surely, we can disagree without being disagreeable, can we not?
Again with intended respect,Ian.
Keep up the informative dialogue as I remain a parasite to whatever knowledge" that flows my way.
12 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Agreed Sir....I look forward to moving forward!
All the best
12 Mar 2009 by zoid
Sorry Dave.
I should have said moderated and I deserved it because I took a private disagreement onto this public domain. I also said a few things I now regret to Alistair B.
The fact is, you have done a great job with this site and hopefully you've made a bob or two. Let's be honest, that's what we're all trying to do in a straightforward, upfront manner? We also want to gain and share knowledge and this forum is the only game in town.
Since my last post, I've opened my email box and received one from Andy Turnbull.
It was a private note and shall remain so but he did encourage me to continue the debate, so I shall be pleased to do so.
I've even dug out a couple of textbooks I bought several years ago. I know you might not approve Ian (books and all that) but I've got to start somewhere if I'm going to at least ask sensible questions.
So it's onwards and upwards with the pursuit of soil web knowledge accumulation!
Zoid, a most gracious post delivered with eloquence. Well done, and we all look forward to your future endeavor on this subterranean life form(or lack of it?) Good night to you Sir.Ian
Paul Wright, I owe you an apology. You were to post with a question on Aeration on Bowling Greens' I failed to answer and therefore please accept my sincere apologies. Paul, you are perfectly correct in regard to the Micro Herd helping to flocculate the fine aggregates to crumb form, hence,creating pore space. But Paul,even north of the wall" we must aerate,then aerate some more. There can never be a substitute for good cultural practice. Good bugs help! we conclude. Keep posting Paul ! never,to be over looked again. With best Regards, Ian Mac.
Please forgive my total and utter ignorance of soil science, I am but a Country boy with a simple mind. I look after grass playing surfaces, all I understand is that I shave all growth off, hammer the surface with a heavy roller, then allow a bunch of heavy (sometimes, no often, overweight) individuals to run up and down it with studded footwear for days on end. After all this I apply water, a bit of seed, maybe a feed and a little soil. Funnily enough the grass cover always grows back. I appreciate that I should understand the process better but is that knowledge really going to help me to produce a finer surface at a lesser cost to my employers.
Please educate me.
13 Mar 2009 by aturnbull Last edited 13 Mar 2009
Hi Ascott
"I am but a Country boy with a simple mind." - What rot! Acsott, you have a brain as sharp as any I have come across, well judging by your many postings. I have learned a lot from your input on this Forum over the past couple of years and you have given me a chuckle this morning.
However, on a more serious note, I think you may have something when applying this Soil Food Web to cricket wicket preparation. At the end of the day you are squeezing the life out of your soil by compacting it to a depth which approximates to the majority of soil microbial life, ie the top 100mm, and also shaving the grass to within a fraction of its recoverable response, and maybe even below this threshold.
Where the Soil Food Web does come into relevance is in the recovery of your wickets. Without microbial life your fertiliser will not be available to the grass, and also why aerate the soil? Yes, this allows the exchange of soil gases and atmospheric air, and helps to create pore space to enable grass roots grow. But this would not be possible without the action of those billions of free helpers called soil microbes.
You may also be right in thinking that you don't need to understand the 'whys' as long as the result is right. I would argue that you cannot get the right result unless you understand what it is you are affecting by your turf maintenance operations.
Lastly, I find great fun in learning about the environement we live and work in. Let's just enjoy the debate.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
13 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Hi Ascott,
Super post and oh! how so very true. Ascott, with this thread, I believe that we are trying to discuss the fundamentals of the so called 'soil food web'. A truely difficult aspect to explain simply and nigh impossible to explain fully, as we do not have all the answers at the mo!
However, we can try to establish (in a simplistic form - to aid clarity of learning) what is known.
I, for one, feel for sure, that what we do know is enough to get the brain juices flowing freely, and hopefully, as more and more folk contribute, our knowledge base will grow and we will learn together.
So to answer your question. The answer is learn with us, contribute with us and together we will establish the basics. From here who knows!
Does this make any sense? Probably not at the moment, but the magnitude of the task is huge. Let's look at it like this:
We all want to have the answers that simply tell us how to guarantee strong, sustained grass growth, with the least fuss, in the easiest manner, and at the least cost. Well, the good news is that you can have this, but there is a cost, it wil be cost in time spent learning both practically and scientifically.
My final thought - You have a problem with your grass growth, you want to know what the problem is and how to resolve it quickly! Now, Johnny, who live 25 miles away from you gives you an answer that may provide you resolve to your issue and it may not.
The trouble is, is that Johnny, who lives 25 miles away, has a different soil make-up (texture class) to you, he lives on a hill leaving him exposed to greater levels of wind than you, the hill he lives on has high levels of organic matter and the precipitation rates where he is are higher than where you live....we could go on!
So can we answer your question, I do not know, but we could give you guidance and I'll give you a possible one for free
Find the grass species that produces the roots with the smallest root tip diameter. Why? Because the tiniest roots can and will establish themselves in the tiniest of pore spaces that are a consequence of your rolling...
But it cannot be just any grass, it must also hold good colour when growing, tolerate shaving and be able to recover from this, produce little thatch, have the ability to bind your soil together with it's roots, be disease resistant, be wear resistant.......
All the best, sorry to go on! Come learn with us..
I return your original question in your post back to you, 'are YOU going to help yourself produce a finer surface at a lesser cost!!'
Well Ascott, if you can achieve so much without knowledge then you must surely wonder what your potential really is?
Experience without knowledge is blind,but knowledge without experience is mere intellectual play? Good luck Ascot.
My wee story.
We tend to take the soil for granted,overlooked by the quality of our grasses. It has always been there and we assume it always will, and probably, indestructible. (but) we are wrong. In truth, it is all too fragile. For the last half-century,we have been lauching a terrible chemical assault on the microorganisms that colonise it's very infrastructure,by drenching the grass and the soil with toxic,so called aid's and abandoning the very practices that enable this underground activity to thrive. I suppose at first glance and up till now we seem to have got away with it. Sport facilities including golf courses have never looked, or played so good. so why bother? Well, everything has a shelf life value,everything has the potential to end,and you know what? the soils that we practice our craft on are no "exception" and as turf practitioner's we must now take responsibility if we are to take our soils forward to the new generation of Groundspeople and Greenkeepers' The very fabric of our craft is in danger of becoming as inert as the great desert's of Africa. Do we have a choice in this exodus of this microbial populous? of course we do! Can we make our soils more sustainable? of course we can. Every day more and more turf practitioner's are taking back ground! and waging a counter attack on this chemical warfare that so many of us have had a collaborative input with. Probabaly one of the first things we need to adopt in readiness for the battle's ahead are to keep an open mind? Let's get training!
Ian Mac (ex,collaborator)
13 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Cor blimey, aren't we getting carried away with this...lol
Someone once said - a day without laughter is a day missed. Anyone got a joke to post?
13 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 13 Mar 2009
Now - if you ever feel like some light entertainment or the need to smile - please view this youtube video. If it does not make you smile you need your microbes looking at.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZJAVb1tgpA&eurl
Also, has anyone ever tried pouring 'Muller Light' on their turf, I have heard that this is full of beneficial microbes?
hi poa7 the video did have a chuckle factor thank you. A joke;Why wont sharks attack lawyers? professional courtesy. well you did ask.
mad4mud
I appreciate that I should understand the process better but is that knowledge really going to help me to produce a finer surface at a lesser cost to my employers
I've no idea whether or not the knowledge with lower the cost or not - there's no way of knowing that until you've got the knowledge and applied it.
If the knowledge allows us to recover pitches better and faster then that could be a good thing.
Dave - what you got against sugar then ??
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Hi jlawrence, whether or not knowledge will lower your cost's or not depends entirely on how you action this knowledge. For myself and my partner we are putting the integrity of our company on our believe's and banked education. Our intention relates to our marketing ethos! We will categorically never use chemical of any sort on our clients turf? We realise that we have a lot to lose? but we further realise that we have everything to gain! First step along our journey relates to putting our customers soil's in rehab? this stage will witness a detoxification of all chemical residuals, and other obnoxious gasses. When we realise a more non toxic soil environment work will begin on building up a fully established and beneficial population of environmental goodies, including animal micro -organism's going through to higher levels of beneficials. Our company will then feed these guys" who in turn, will feed the grass,whilst restoring the strucures of the Soils. So jlawrence without question restoration of the Soil Web will lower cost's by using natures Larder as your canteen. Ian Mac.
Hi Ian, what do you mean that your company will feed these guys?
Thanks
Ton
Hi Tony, our company" being the company that I am a managing Partner of. These guys, Fungi and Bacteria, and other beneficial life forms that contribute to a healthy Soil Food Web. Kindest Regards to you,Ian Mac
Ian/Andy, good day to you. Whilst I may not be completely blind, I am desperately groping around in the dark on this one. Any achievements, are put down to huge good fortune.
Poa7, thanks very much for the introduction to this fascinating subject, I look forward to learning with you. Your case study is very true as I did have a grass growth problem, but now i have found the ideal solution, thanks to trial and error plus good support. It is my belief that the groundsmans greatest art is in understanding his own particular surface, which as you correctly say can be very different from other local grounds.
Sorry to drift off the original thread, and, to answer your question, yes I need to lower costs but struggle to see how the surfaces can be better.
Jon, I hope to gain that knowledge and will be watching for further pearls of wisdom, just hope I can see them!
Regards to all. Vic.
13 Mar 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 13 Mar 2009
Hello there,
I have been reading this post with interest and am just wondering where it is going?
Ian and Andy I have read your posts before on this site and on the IGA site also. You have talked about improving our carbohydrate levels with the use of beers and compost teas as well as other things to encourage beneficial microbial populations within our soils.
This is all well and good, but surely good aeration and sound management practises carried out on a regular basis will be beneficial to us all in improving our soils in the short and long term?
You talk about putting our soils into rehab, detoxification of chemical residuals and other gasses and building up a fully established and beneficial population of environmental goodies, you state Our company will then feed these guys" who in turn, will feed the grass,whilst restoring the strucures of the Soils.
Im waiting in anticipation... come on lets spill the beans, how are you going to achieve this? because in all fairness this is what we all want to know?
Cheers
Paul
Learning is there for every man
13 Mar 2009 by Dave
Without commercial intent! and with the integrity of Wholesome Debate was your opening thread Ian, this is now closed.
Cheers,
Dave
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