Message Board - Natural Turf: Part 2 ........
13 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Starts here on Monday 16th March 2009 for me, for others it may be sooner.
Please feel free to join in. I'm off for some weekend R & R first ;-)
After consideration, I feel the need to post my Part 2 from the (......... thread). This can be a place to discuss, not debate, all are welcome :-)
Just remember that everyone's opinion counts and no-one is wrong, let's learn together.
PS - Don't worry, no homework wil be assigned..it's for pleasure only
15 Mar 2009 by jlawrence
LOL @Poa7, unfortunately for me there's a lot of homework on this subject - as with many it seems one answer leads to another 10 questions and I end up with loads of notes most of which are questions and not answers.
I may well join you in discussion (or rather me getting educated more than discussing) on Monday.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
Earlier we were looking to establish what exactly the ‘soil food web’ is and what it is about.
I have chosen to attempt to explain (in a clear and simplified fashion) the basic interactions with plant growth and development, looking into both the Biotic & Edaphic factors.
Here is my contribution.
(PART 1)
Biotic Factors – organisms
Edaphic Factors – Soil conditions
Ok, here we go –
Biotic factors: Plants (producers) in competition with each other AND Consumers (animals) in competition with each other. The interesting thing here is that generally plants take in C02 and release 02, while the animals take in 02 and release C02.
NOTE – Plant roots take in 02 and respire (breath out/release) C02
Biotic factors also encompass light energy, rainfall, temperature and wind. Climate strongly dictates what grows where. Think of a greenhouse, as generally in these, we can control the climatic conditions and encourage growth of whatever we like!
Edaphic factors: Decomposers that live in the soil, generalised as Fungi & Bacteria – still lots to learn about here! In many instances (like the producers and animals) this soil life is in competition with each other.
Most importantly, for both the Biotic & Edaphic conditions there is a ‘cycle of nutrients’ & a food chain.
Now, looking closely at the organisms, animals and plants we see that they can interact with each other, and their non-living environment, BUT, the cycle of nutrients is more or less closed!
These activities, interactions and cycles play a significant role in the health & type of sports turf we can produce and manage. This is dynamic and diverse sphere that is still being studied and understood today.
Hence the difficulties in debating and understanding a subject we DO NOT fully understand. But hey, let’s get in there!
In my next installment I will try to establish the basics with he following:
PART 2 - Plant growth (as we are talking sports turf).
Then look at
PART 3 - Factors that effect growth
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Okay, before we move into Part 2 - Plant growth and the factors that affect it, perhaps we should try to draw some discussion from the first post Biotic & Edaphic factors. See above.
The most interesting aspects from the initial post (above) for me are the following:
(a) Plants are in competition with each other – what are the factors that allow the grass plant to compete at it’s strongest?
(b) Plant roots take in 02 (oxygen) and release C02 – Could this mean that aeration is really the ‘key’ ingredient to a healthy soil?
(c) The cycle of nutrients? What is all this about? How do we affect this with our practices and home made rootzones? Can we really control it? A definite subject for a future posting……
(d) The food chain, what are the factors that affect this and just what is it?
(e) Plants / organisms have interactions with each other, what are the basics here? What do we need to know to establish a grounded education on what is happening below our feet?
Lastly, (f) Just how important is the FREE stuff? Light, water, temperature & dare I say it nutrients?
Shall we start with “What allows the grass plant to compete at its best and how do we prevent this with sports turf maintenance operations”
Let the discussions commence. All are welcome….even the smallest amount of input is a contribution. For greater clarity, I will do my best to summarise once in a while all that is posted.
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Here is a starter for 10 for the question (in bold above). Just to get the ball rolling;
What allows the grass plant to grow (Summary)
1. Climate & Weather
- Rain fall amounts
- Strength & duration of winds (transpiration rate)
- Temperature (soil & ambient)
2. Light
- Time exposed to light
- Light quality / Shade
3. Nutrients & Gases
- Availability
- Deficiency
4. Water
- Availability
- Deficiency
5. Temperature
- Growth response
- Dormancy
6. pH
- Availability of nutrients
- Determines type of competition and how competitive they are
- Distribution and number of organisms
7. Organic Matter / Soil
- Mineral (soil) type
- Levels of OM
- Availablilty
8. Soil Organisms
- Levels of organic matter
- Distribution & numbers
- Decomposition of OM material
16 Mar 2009 by Steve63
For me the biggest factor which governs the manner in the way that your turf grows is the persistant removal of clippings from the nutrient cycle.
This easily digested OM is removed, requiring its replacement via fertilisers, these are generally inorganic (because of cost) and so the soil food web is robbed almost daily of the essence of what ultimately breaks down to Humus, the gooey, sticky stuff that makes a good soil what it is. In its place a cocktail of nutrient elements are applied to make the grass grow but do little to help the soil organisms and bacteria flourish as they would in say, a meadow. Ok a meadow may well have meadow grass, but it will be strong because of its natural environment, Fescues prefer a harsher climate but they will still produce OM which would break down into the soil.
Removing clippings costs money and harms the environment, do you need to "box off"?
Best Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
Exactly right Steve. Also when the plant loses its leaf, it allocates its carbohydrate reserves to help produce new leaf growth ........ at the demise of new root growth.....
Leaf growth is vital for photosynthesis and energy/sugar production so obviously Mr Grass Plant wants a full bodied canopy of leaf and does not like it when it is so frequently removed!....
Now.....
When a plant has reached its pre-determined maximum leaf height (as you rightly say Steve - found in undisturbed meadows), these carbo reserves are allocated to root development and hey presto! The plant has greater access to water, nurients and available oxygen in the soil....and when the leaves die, as the roots, we have a slow and steady build-up of organic material that can be consumed by the ittle critters known has fungi & bacteria
When the grass grows to its maximum potential the tall, full canopy is natures way of allowing the plant to surpress weeds and other stuff wishing to grow, sports turf mowing heights do not produce masses of shade at soil level, so we need to go for high density to prevent the competions from gaining a strong hold ..... but now, the players and our operations wear it out, opening the canopy and letting in more light, that the weeds just adore!
Also, but not lastly, the meadow grass, is ALLOWED TO SEED!
16 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
Going off at a slight tangent, if I may (can you have a slight tangent??), I seem to remember from my school biology lessons that plants took in CO2 and 'exhaled' O2 during the day but took in O2 and 'exhaled CO2 during the night.
Is that right or am I mis-remembering?
Also, further to Mr. 63s post, the recent article in PitchCare, "Effect a stress free change to fine grasses" (Dec/Jan) states:
"Microbes eat carbohydrates and proteins but inorganic fertilisers are mineral salts.
Ammonium sulphate has a salt index of about 70, ferrous sulphate about 72. This means that for every 100kg of fertiliser you apply, about 70kg are mineral salts. No living cell can survive on a diet of salt, the plant and surrounding microbes suffer from osmotic shock - water is taken out of the cell."
The article goes on to point out that this causes a vicious circle/cycle leading to anaerobic conditions. Ultimately the short term fix leads to long term problems.
There's an element of advertorial about this article but it would appear to be pertinent to the discussion.
From the posh end of the room!!
16 Mar 2009 by Steve63
With regards to the removal of clippings, part of the issue is that they are removed completely from site, in the meadow land scenario the clippings would be removed from the plant, sheep or cows for instance and then returned as an organic fertiliser via manure.
Living plants are marvelous things, as you say poa they produce and use CO2 and O2 and are capable of recycling their own waste products with the help of the soil fauna, by keeping things as simple as possible and trying to mimic nature it is possible to create a healthy soil. Unfortunately, a lot, if not all, of our sports surfaces do not easily support this ideal.
Best Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Martin Ward
Part 2 looks to be a very interesting debate.
There seems to be some resentment or idealism about commercialism on this board, as many may know I have a very strong commercial interest in that my company and its employees livings are based upon researching, developing and selling products that improve soil health for sports turf and food production soils. Virtually all research is paid for from income made by selling knowledge or products backed up by grants which ultimately come from taxed income.
The development of knowledge and good results comes from a combination of research, product development and feed back from the users of the products, with industry and customers working together, so I hope that industry’s views are held as valid in this forum. (Soilfoodweb Inc the company that formulated the research under discussion and put the knowledge into the public domain is now a 100% commercial company but it does provide useful information ). I therefore admit that there is a certain amount of advertorial in the article on converting to fine grasses otherwise it would not have been written.
The discussion so far has raised some interesting points, as I understand it the amount of nutrients released below ground is more to do with surface area of the leaf available to photosynthesise, most grasslands are grazed and the grass seldom reaches its genetic potential and as sports turf is quite dense the effect of close mowing is not as bad as would be expected. I have some old photographs of a research project showing the effect of different mowing heights on root growth, (but sadly have lost the paper - it was old the pics are in black and white) and mowing at about 10ml only appears to halve the root mass and one can assume the amount of exudates compared to uncut grass.
So what does allow a grass plant to compete at its best.
Given that the first 7 of poa7’s parameters soils, climate, rainfall, pH, grazing and compaction by golfer, cow or other turf user, mowing, are never going to be satisfactory most of the time, and that in most natural eco systems no chemistry is added (floods, dust storms, volcanic eruption etc excepted) the constant factor is the soil biology that makes nutrients available from root exudates, thatch, dead grass and animal droppings and allows a grass species to thrive in many different soils.
However in most ecosystems that are not heavily grazed, and this accounts for much of the UK, grass is an interim step in species progression from bare ground to forest so the trick of the turf manager is to maintain the soil biology that his or her grass species prefers. The soil biology and plant is very adaptable
What stops the grass plant that you want to grow compete at its best is anything that kills the soil biology, which boils down to lack of oxygen, lack of or too much water and toxins which effectively comprise salts and some chemical residues, lack of organic matter on which to survive and lack of available nutrient. If any of these parameters are wrong for the soil biology you want you will ultimately get a different plant from the one you want
Arguments for any of the other 7 parameters please??
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
That is a very useful point you bring to the party Aladdin. Easily visualised by those who have ever spilt a large quantity of the arforementioned fertilisers only to see the death of the plant even when the spilt fertiliser was swept up and washed in!
If we add the valid points Aladdin raised to other conditions such as;
Soil compaction,
Poor / infrequent / insufficient irrigation practices,
Pure sand rootzones,
Inconsistent applications of top-dressings (high silt, high organic, high sand a mix of all - lets face it we rarely see anyone who to dresses with the same parent material)
Tolerance of grass species to soluble salts
Effects of high salinity on seedling grasses
Is it any wonder growing the simplest of plants becomes a (very difficult) art?
It is really encouraging to see folk considering what we are doing and the effects these have.
I firmly believe that once all the industry become aware of the basic growing conditions required by the grass plant (as we are beginning to do in this thread) and the harmful effects of high maintenance turf operations, the sooner we will see significant change in management practice.
Why? Well, as this thread is trying to highlight, the interactions between turfgrasses, their management and the surrounding environment is vital to ensure their health and allow us to sustain their growth.
Could it be said that for the past 20 (some may say 60) years, we have simply been following the established rules withoutout any real consideration or thought?
So far Steve63 has inadvertantly discussed 'plant morphology' and nutrient uptake and Aladdin has also touched on nutrient availability and the physiological effect of saline soil conditions there is so much more to discuss....
What can we look at next? Anyone else have any thoughts ....
“What allows the grass plant to compete at its best and how do we prevent this with sports turf maintenance operations”
Where will the thread take us next?
16 Mar 2009 by Steve63 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
I would say that the removal of clippings falls into parameter No.3 Nutrients, but would add to parameter No. 8 soil organisms, the most negative practice that the majority of sports turf managers employ is...........
............
...........the removal of worms from the soil.
The amount of good that these guys do to the healthy balance of the soil is phenomenal, and we just kill them as if they were of no concern, their aeration and the initial degrading and incorporation of OM into the soil cannot be over-estimated, the amount of money that we spend on doing the work they they would do if we didnt kill them, or scare them away 
, is huge.
Regards
Steve (Mr Hesk, Aladdin)
p.s. added - Perhaps I have now drifted nonchanantly into Entomology poa 
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
lol - indeed you have Steve
16 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Is it not also, that now that we have to push our surfaces to the extreme
just take golf greens for starters , top quality surfaces are now required 365 day's a year ,whilst members also require them to be fast and true , just take the middle of a hot summer golfers still expect a ball to be hit from a 150 yards and stop , so do we apply a little more water than is realy needed , is this for the turf or the people that pay the wages
As for cut heights that we used to use we would not get away with that now , also modern practices with chemicals to keep our turf in tip top condition is a lot easier than it use to be , and maybe some of the old skills that use to happen are fading away
As for soil science , no i don't fully understand it but i hope to know a lot more by the end of this fascinating subject
16 Mar 2009 by Mal
Poa, when you comment
"for the past 20 (some may say 60) years, we have simply been following the established rules withoutout any real consideration or thought?"
I believe that this is purely down those that taught us. Very often when you ask someone why they do something the way they are doing it, invariably they will reply that that is the way that I was taught. So you are right to allude to the fact that once taught a particular way of doing something and that practice then becomes established it is sometimes very difficult for for some to think outside the box.
Of course, natural succession annuals and weeds through to woods and forests is the way of nature and at various points along the way we interupt that and try our best to hold it in stasis at the point that we require to our needs. whether that is as a grass pitch, coppiced woodland or cash crop forest.
But to the point of effects of saline soil conditions I think that you will still need to match plant species to the environment. There was a time when sea washed turf was specified and used on areas where it was never sustainable but because it was a fine grass those in the past struggled with it's use. There are some very good grass species on the market these days that you can if thought about, match to your environment
Geography is everywhere
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
has2mow - now you are thinking ;-)
Mal, you are absolutely spot on with everything you state. I wish more of the people I meet thought like you.
Lets look at matching species:
You can get grasses that prefer a certain pH
You can get grasses that are more wear tolerant
You can get grasses that are disease resistant
That enjoy shade
That tolerate a low cutting height
That lose little moisture via transpiration
That cope with wear better than others due to their prostrate growing habit
I am now boring myself ..
The best teachers will encourage free thinking even when teaching to a pre-determined syllabus......
16 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
Indulge me, guys.
As Mr. Lawrence states there are more questions than answers. Especially for those of us at, er, grass roots level!!
Firstly, am I right in thinking that grass 'inhales' CO2 and 'exhales' O2 during the daytime and vice versa during the nighttime? Or have I just dreamt that?
I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Mow as well in that I have my doubts that preparing a surface suitable for a given sport will be conducive to an ideal soil ecology.
As for clippings, where is the happy medium? If I understand things aright isn't scarification carried out to remove OM? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree* but why add OM/clippings to the soil if you're only going to remove it a little while later?
*If anyone quotes that with some judicious editing I'll send the moles round!! 
Worms.
I'm sure no-one wants to get shut of these natural aerators but they sure as hell don't want worm casts on their surface. The only way to prevent them is to get rid of the worms. Isn't it? Other than chemical application the only way that I know of is to make your surface inhospitable to the worms. i.e. relatively dry. In doing this, however, isn't the ecological balance already upset?
In Part 1 Mr. Mow made mention of compost tea. I haven't checked but doesn't the application of compost tea introduce them there myco.........mycor............er, mycorrhizal fungi? From everything I read these appear to be very important, possibly the most important factor in grass growth. Would that be correct?
I hope all this makes sense and is taken as intended. There's an element of Devil's Advocate within it.
Mr Ward, no offense was intended. I don't want to get bogged down with this but I would not have quoted from your article if I'd had no respect for it.
From the posh end of the room!!
16 Mar 2009 by Steve63
Aladdin, (Mr?)
The thatch,Mat and dead/dying OM that is removed via scarifying generally differs from the leaf blade "clippings" in the way that the cells of the leaf blade are made up. (I could go awry here botonically, but hopefully somebody with a greater education than mine will right the forthcoming wrongs)
The leaf blade is made up of easily broken down matter, think of a bag full of grass clippings that turn to gooey ooze very quickly and can be used as a catalyst in your compost heap, compared to this the organic matter which stays within the surface of the sward is made up of older hardier parts of the grass plant and has developed a tougher lignin based make up, much harder for the micro fauna to digest. My take is that by feeding the micro fauna easy food, i.e. clippings they will multiply and then be a force which will be capable of digesting the dying crowns, rhizhomes, stolons and older "woodier" parts of the grass .
With regards to worms and clippings, I know that it is not the "done" thing but, this is just a discussion.
As always, Best Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
Thank you for that, Mr. Hesk, that's made a few things clearer to me.
I always seek to learn.
From the posh end of the room!!
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
Spot on again Steve. Lignified plant parts take alot longer to decompose rather than the cellulose make up of the leaf.
It actually would be possible to not box off if we mowed everyday. BUT, with the levels of fertiliser most apply to their turf and the spring flush just around the corner, sometimes even mowing everyday isn't enough!
Perhaps, we could look to do this during the summer time when the grass kicks back? A happy medium, we would be doing our bit!
However, with regard to the summer, here is an interesting point!..................
During the summer the oxygen demand from the critters (aerobic bacteria & fungi) is at it's highest! Now, how may people do you know that aerate with more vigour in the summer? Is it possible that this may be a wise thing to do?
16 Mar 2009 by Grassman2011
And aerate with what/method poa7 ? In another post you suggest that you would not solid tine a sand medium.
I for one like to aerate my outfield as often as is possible during the summer, or at least untill it gets toooooo dry.
Summer spike exhausted wickets on my square.
Most summer tining carried out with soilid tines.
16 Mar 2009 by Steve63
I have just posted on another thread and feel that I should cut and paste!
Solid tine, sarrel or air inject?
Regards, and I am afraid good night
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
I know it's the nature of forums/message boards but are we not drifting off-topic, gentlemen? I suppose I'm equally guilty 
From the posh end of the room!!
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Well bath, hollow tining, verti-draining would suffice for me. I would slit tine to aerate, but NOT solid tine. This is my preference, it may be different to yours ;-)
On cricket squares, it is slightly different as the 'maintenance induced compaction' caused by the solid tines is not such a big deal as here compaction is positively encouraged. As you correctly state, in the other thread, I was answering a question on sand based rootzones.
I hope this answers your question.
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7
lol - indeed we are ... but it is late
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Alladin,
Sorry kept meaning to answer this one, just got carried away wit other things ….. as usual
Plants will release C02 at night. Plants do release C02 during the day too, it’s all part and parcel of photosynthesis and energy production.
Plants release both 02 & C02, they just happen to release more 02 than C02
Plants do require sunlight to produce 02 and during the night there is non (if my memory serves me correctly!),
During the day the plant absorbs C02 for photosynthesis and during the night excess C02 will be released back into the atmosphere.
Some might say that as the ‘stomata’ is shut tightly during the night how is this C02 released? Well, the stomata is not shut completely (air tight) and during the evening both C02 and plant protoplasm will seep from them and C02 from the leaf tissue cells aswell.
This begs the question though … why is the air so fresh in the morning?
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
OK today's discussion - water (Parameter 4).
"How do we make water available to the grass plant, when should we apply it, how is it used and just how important is this stuff?"
What do we think?
17 Mar 2009 by Martin Ward
Alladin Re question above about compost teas and mycorrhizae.
The mycorrhizal fungi that associate with grass live in the grass roots and die in compost, so you cannot grow mycorrhizae in a compost tea.
17 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Hi Poa7
As for watering , would you say that over watering would reduce the amount of air in the soil , also would there be a down turn in soil life if you was to underwater
17 Mar 2009 by Vic Demain
Poa7,
On my cricket pitches, I prefer to use a soaker hose giving a slow mist and leave it going for a good time to allow the water to get down to depth for later rolling and compaction of the pitch. Then put sheets on to stop it drying too quickly. I will water at anytime, people say not in sun and not at night but must admit to doing both, though not often at night. For me water is critical on cricket pitches but not as important on my sand based bowling green.
These views are more with pitch preperation in mind than plant health.
17 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi Poa7,
In reference to your earlier statement re: the stomata not closing 'air tight' during night hours...i.e. "both C02 and plant protoplasm will seep from them and C02 from the leaf tissue cells as well." ....... The seepage of protoplasm, is this part of the process.... gutation?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
I'll start with the easiest first. As I am sure you know Ken, guttation (protoplasm - or plant juice as I like to call it) mixes with the atmospheric moisture to form the dew seen on plant leaves in the morning. If this morning dew is 'switched' we are actually very slightly fertilising the plant/thatch by spreading this mix of water/nutrients.
I throw a quick question back to you that I am sure you will know the answer too, if not immediately, you will of you think about it....
Have you noticed that some grasses seem to hold more water on their leaves than others? When walking through the park, or rough sometimes your feet seem to get really soaked.
Take a close look, you will see that some grass species really hold this morning dew for a long time....why do you think this could be?
Lastly, could this guttation mix be the reason that greenkeepers/groundspersons boots seem to fall apart so quickly? lol
17 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi Poa7..... My first thought would be surface tension.... if there are fine hairs covering the leave, as in Yorkshire fog, it is more likely to retain moisture much longer..... I might add, this is a SWAG?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
has2mow & Ascott,
It is obvious that you guy's are thinking about how and why you water. As with all things sports turf, knowledge of your own soil type / growing conditions is paramount to success. At the end of the day we have a job to do and a surface to prepare to a standard that is conducive to the sport to be played on it!
Sometimes this means throwing out 'ideals' and simply getting on with it as best we can.
However, with the thread, I want to look at ideals and the basic science behind things, I am positive that all the guy's & girl's reading this thread work extremely hard and produce fantastic results with the practical knowledge you have. What I would lke to achieve is to get you thinking about the ideals ..... once we know these, we can adapt our practices (when we need to) in a more informed manner and minimise the risk of damaging the all important grass sward.
Lets simplify one of the questions above -
Overwater or underwater, what is the ideal soil moisture level? But hold on! Before we go there - Just how is water held in the soil, & how & when does it disappear? What are the basics?
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 17 Mar 2009
We should (with luck) move onto surface tension soon Ken (see the thread above this).
But indeed, the water droplets form water droplets by adhesion and stick to the leaf via cohesion. The hairs (like found on YF) is spot on Ken!
But Ken, what the hell is SWAG?
17 Mar 2009 by Mal Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Here’s something interesting to think about 
How often have you walked through long grass on a dewy autumn when the grass is full of seed heads (grass or other wise) and found the seed sticking to your shoes and clothes through the moisture which would in dry circumstances, just fall off where the grass was disturbed? This all helps plant to migrate to spread contributing to succession. Though a lot of plants spread their seed in specially adapted ways this could still be an interesting way to spread especially if you feel that dew has a little nutrient carrying capability
Geography is everywhere
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Martin, I am sure you are in a better position than I to answer 'has2mows' question on the basic water requirements of aerobic bacteria, perhaps a little bit on anaerobic too?
What do you think? Your input would be valued
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Mal, that is a very interesting theory......
17 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber
SWAG = Scientific Wild Ar*e Guess!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
17 Mar 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Hello Poa 7,
Hope you are well.
Water
Water is extremely essential for plants and without this key element photosynthesis will not occur. It is a also a key element for the germination process as well.
As turf managers we apply water to our surfaces in order to provide the plant with what it needs for this process. After water is applied to our soils it is used by the plants in the process of photosynthesis and is lost by transpiration (from the plant) and Evaporation( from the soils). These 2 processes together give us the term Evopotranspiration.
Factors that affect Transpiration, can be as follows:
* Temperature: Transpiration rates go up as the temperature goes up, especially during the growing season, when the air is warmer due to stronger sunlight and warmer air masses. Higher temperatures cause the plant cells which control the openings (stoma), where water is released to the atmosphere, to open, whereas colder temperatures cause the openings to close.
* Relative humidity: As the relative humidity of the air surrounding the plant rises the transpiration rate falls. It is easier for water to evaporate into dryer air than into more saturated air.
* Wind and air movement: Increased movement of the air around a plant will result in a higher transpiration rate. This is somewhat related to the relative humidity of the air, in that as water transpires from a leaf, the water saturates the air surrounding the leaf. If there is no wind, the air around the leaf may not move very much, raising the humidity of the air around the leaf. Wind will move the air around, with the result that the more saturated air close to the leaf is replaced by drier air.
* Soil-moisture availability: When soil moisture is lacking, plants can begin to senesce (premature ageing, which can result in leaf loss) and transpire less water.
* Type of plant: Plants transpire water at different rates. Some plants which grow in arid regions—for example, cacti and succulents—conserve precious water by transpiring less water than other plants.
Taken from http://www.eoearth.org/article/Transpiration
Author Burba + Pidwirny 2007
I was always taught to referance work that wasn't mine!! 
I was always taught to apply to water deep and infrequently, and only apply when there is signs of wilting, this way we are not being wastefull. But personally I feel practises should be determined by the grass species and soil types you are managing.
The practise we carry out here at my club in France is to replace water by ET. Our Sitepro system is linked to a weather station in the middle of the course and upto date environmental conditions calculate what is needed to be applied on a nightly basis. This you may think..... is NOT WATERING DEEP AND INFREQUENTLY......but im going to stick my kneck out abit here and say we are managing Poa annua/ Creeping bentgrass greens and if you look at the research that Tom Cook of Oregan state carried out he states... that to provide top quality poa putting surfaces you need to avoid stress to this species but also avoid over irrigation as well. Watering to ET and with a weather station allows us to do that.
For anybody who is interested in Cooks article it is at the following link:
http://www.kinipela.ca/pdf/AnnualBluegrass2008.pdf
As for applying irrigation the best way to apply is through an irrigation system that is working efficiently and effectively . If our systems are upto scratch we will have good uniformity and the correct pressure. Poor uniformity is wastefull and will cause dry areas on our surfaces....this is what we dont want!!! Consideration should be taken in the design stages and alterations should be made to optimize performance.
As for the timing of applying water, this is usually carried out in the hours of darkness when ET rates are at their lowest, in an ideal world we would apply water as late as we possibly can in the night so the surface is not sitting damp for longer than need be. This is sometimes not possible.
I could have gone on for longer but I think ill leave it that for now!!!
Bonne courage
DE
Learning is there for every man
17 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Poa7,
Question.... how is water held in the soil, & how & when does it disappear?
1. Gravity vs capillary action
2. Influenced by sand or clay content
3. Speed of infiltration of sand vs soil aggregates
4. Sandy loam vs loam vs clay loam
5. Rate of water entry
7. Soil management practices
8. Root channels
...... for starters!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Great Stuff.....
Eddy21, super summary there mate! Who ever told you to reference work? lol Thanks for your input it is valued and informative and present day practice!
You are clearly blending science and practice with thought and consideration...
Eddy21 you might like to read this article written in 2004, it gets a bit heavy in the middle, but the first and last third might be an interesting read for you .. it is based on soccer, but can easily be transferred.
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/1596
Ken
Once again you have thought and considered the question at hand, are you presently studying? If you are not, you should, you are a natural...
Ken, to save me typing loads (it's too late and the kids need be put to bed - alrady 30 ins late!) you might like to read this one. It is ripped from an article I wrote for Greenkeeper Magazine in (i think 1999).
You will find it by clicking here > http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/2507/environment-matters
17 Mar 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Hi Poa 7,
Thanks very much for the link. I look forward to reading it.
Hopefully this will be the start of link sharing on the PC site, I read alot of the UK turf forums and this is something us Brits dont do enough of in my honest opinion.
My main reason for stating this, is that I work for an American Superintendent here in Paris and he is always sending me research links to browse through. Personally, I find it so beneficial and it allows me to draw my own conclusions on certain matters and also expands my knowledge.
Keep up the good work everyone, this post is making very interesting reading.....AND.....if you come across anything interesting whilst researching, dont be shy to post the link.....its of benefit to us all!!!!
Bonne courage
DE
Learning is there for every man
17 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Eddy21 - Have you got 'valve in head' pop ups?
OK, last bit from me tonight...
Basics for soil water, let's start with the different saturation states soils can be in:
Saturation - Occurs when all the pores within the soil are completely filled with water.
When a soil is 'saturated' there may well still be problems with the plant accessing it and take up can be limited - usually due to the lack of oxygen now found in the rooting area.
Field Capacity - What is left after the soil (not surface) has been completely flooded -see saturated. Once gravity drains away the excess, FC is what is left being held in the soil.
Readily Available Soil Water - Of the available water that is left after the excess has drained away - we are now at FC - only a small amount is actually used by the plant usually from the macro or bigger soil pores. Some of the water held in the micro or very small pores will be held too tightly and the plant root (root hairs) cannot suck it out!
Now in between readily available water (above) and Permanent Wilting point below. Water will be lost through evaporation (generally near the surface only) and transpiration (water sucked up by the plant and lost via the stomata - constant cycle due to wind). It will also be used by the bugs and eventually, it will be lost from the soil OR held so tightly against the soil crumbs/particles that the plant cannot use it. This leads us to Permanent Wilting point below.....
Permanent Wilting Point - Here there is water available in the soil but the plant cannot access it but the water (actually in the plant itself) is still being lost through transpiration. Eventually the leaves droop and turn a different colour, sometimes a blueish green, and eventually brown!
MOST IMPORTATNT POINT? Well, if the roots are thin, sparce and shallow, you may well have loads of water but the plant can still be droughted. Limited roots equals limited water take-up!
So, now where???? Thinking of the above, what environmental aspects would speed this water loss process up?
Anyone bored yet?
18 Mar 2009 by zoid
Just a little.
Sorry.
;-(
18 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Ah! Mr Zoid!
I see you are a frequent visitor to the Pitchcare website. I have read some of your previous postings and I like your viewpoints.
Mindful of the above sentence, it is clear to me that you must have some very interesting views on turf grass management and as you are now back, I feel there is definitely a longing to learn and develop within you...
Is there anything you would like to discuss or add to the party or have I missed a trick on this one?
19 Mar 2009 by Martin Ward
Poa7
Apologies for late off board at mo, on road then abroad, its a very good question needs a bit more time to answer so if thread open on return I'll get some info down.
One essential point to consider is the conductivity of water used, how many people think that low conductivity rain water does a better job than mains or reservoir water. We generally see that water with conductivity of 500 us/cm and below is fine for closely mown turf but once conductivity ( The higher the current the more salts in the water) rises above this you need more volume to get the water into the plant. Does anybody have their water analysis to hand and can comment on this point?
We do know that mycorrhizal grass holds between 30-50% more water than non mycorrhizal grass, this has been researched quite conclusively and mycorhizae also seems to filter out salt which is why dune grasses are very mycorrhizal dependent.
Reply to rest of question later
19 Mar 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 19 Mar 2009
Hi Martin,
Looking at what you have stated in your above post, does this mean that the warm season grass Paspalum, contains more mycorhizae,hence its abiltity to be irrigated with saltwater to a certain degree?
I know ive jumped to whole new area (warm season) but ive always wondered how this plant can thrive, do well and be so salt tolerant.
Cheers
DE
Learning is there for every man
19 Mar 2009 by Barry Pace
Couple of other points to chew I have picked up over time about irrigated water versus rainwater..... Bought water issues can be ph, have seen people fighting down soil phs and been banging on water at 7.8...... also, especially this time of year and onwards stored or bought water is very very cold and have seen grass stall or go backwards almost in cold shock... but what would a contractor know eh..... lol
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
19 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Thanks for that Martin, your input will (I am sure) be an interesting and thought provoking read.
DE - I am sure that Martin will bring more to light on the mycorhizae issue for Warm Season Turf, in the meantime, here is a bit to add.
Grasses that have the ability to grow well in high salt situations (both warm and cool season) are thought to be able to control the osmotic potential in their cells, from the leaf to the root/solution in the soil. Hence their ability to grow in salt areas.
For those reading this that are thinking 'what the hell is osmotic potential, that guy is wierd', please let me ilustrate the point...
Bottom of the plant - root hair (this sucks up the water and is in contact with the water)
Top of plant - stomata on the leaf (this is where water is lost from the plant)
Lets say that there were ONLY three cells in a grass plant and these three cells all contained an equal water/nutrient mix within them (there were equal molecules of water and nutrients - they were in BALANCE)
1 - The leaf cell had 4 parts water and 4 parts nutrient
2 - The middle of body cell had 4 parts water and 4 parts
3 - The root cell had 4 parts water and 4 parts nutrient
Now - the wind blows, and this draws some of the water from the plant via the leaf stomata
(think of those blowers you see in motorway toilets, you have wet hands after you have washed them so you stick them under a blow dryer on the wall. The fast blowing warm air dry's them - some people will still not be any wiser, as they never wash their hands after going to the loo...)
This means now that the leaf has 3 parts water to 4 parts nutrient - Inbalance
So the leaf cell borrows one of the water molecules from the middle body cell - the leaf cell is now happy!
But, the middle body cell now has 3 part water to 4 parts nutrient - Inbalance
So, the middle body cell borrows a water molecule from the root cell - the middle body cell is now happy!
But, the root cell has now 3 parts water to 4 parts nutrient - Inbalance
So, the root cell draws some water (via the root hair) from the soil solution (water in the soil) - Ah! now all cells are happy - hurrah!
Trouble is - this process is on going through the day and there are thousands of cells, what happens if we have a sunny, very warm day when the wind is blowing strongly and the soil is dry?????
If there are salts in the soil, they may draw water out of the plant from the root area - double calamity for old Mr Grass Plant in this case!
19 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber Last edited 19 Mar 2009
Simply put Poa7 and and simply understood..... nice one!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
19 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 19 Mar 2009
Barry - it is obvious you know an awful lot. Thanks for the input. The irrigation water pH level is a very important point to both remember and consider....
19 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
When it comes to water/irrigation I usually refer to this:
Irrigation for sports turf
As I understand it one needs to maintain a soil water deficit i.e. there should only be as much water in the soil as is necessary.
Drainage to take away excess and irrigation to top up.
From the posh end of the room!!
19 Mar 2009 by Ian McMillan Last edited 19 Mar 2009
Hi All
A nice debate going on here initially talking about healthy soil and how we can enhance our soils has diversified into the subject of osmosis? I do understand that we need to take a holistic approach to what we are trying to achieve. (Harmony for everyone Golfer, Footballer, Cricketer, ect Groundsaman or Greenkeeper ) However, It does make you realise you cannot discount any part of what is going on below our feet? Experience and scientific validation are both important aspects of what we do, if we are to see the bigger picture so to speak.
Anyway, I will share with you an experience of reverse osmosis?
Poa7
Has described the processes involved in osmosis above, which is essentially I think the movement of water into the plant from the soil and if there are any imbalances then this becomes more difficult to achieve through salt inclusion in the water or the plant. Now what if you have salt inclusion in the soil itself?
Summary,
I was unfortunate to dig a sand cap material, which on initial investigation looked OK Ph 6.0 etc. Unfortunately, the material was full of iron pyrites finings!! Iron pyrites (Fool Gold) is safe when it is below the water table but when dug up and oxygenated it breaks down and produces sulphuric acid, which did in our case lead to an extremely low PH 1.6 almost unknown, which leads to extremely high salt index, which leads to reverse osmosis. The soil literally does suck the moisture out of the plant.
Anyway, Can we get this debate back on track? I have lost count as to whether we are on point 1,2, or 3?
What shall we discuss next?
Ian
22 Mar 2009 by zoid
4 days ago by Poa7
Ah! Mr Zoid!
I see you are a frequent visitor to the Pitchcare website. I have read some of your previous postings and I like your viewpoints.
Mindful of the above sentence, it is clear to me that you must have some very interesting views on turf grass management and as you are now back, I feel there is definitely a longing to learn and develop within you...
Is there anything you would like to discuss or add to the party or have I missed a trick on this one?
Hello Poa,
There's a lot of good stuff on here but I got a bit frustrated (it's not hard for me) that the thread was banging along so fast and in so many different directions that my brain was about to explode.
This was exacerbated by being away twice since the thread began and having to catch up.
Your top down approach to turf management (Pure science -> Applied Science -> Problem Solving) is ambitious for a message board but I'm interested to see if you can pull it off? Most threads, of course, take a bottom up approach and are much easier to follow as we all know where we are going from the off.
Whoever said easier was best though? So I'm hanging in for the ride.
22 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 22 Mar 2009
I see what you are saying Zoid. Another consequence of internet forums is that the responses to questions lead you in different directions and you cannot simply ignore them, even if they do take you off track.
The only way for the thread to stay on track would be for one person to post the theory and then others simply read it. This does not become much of a discsusion though!
As for the bottom up approach, that is exactly what I am/was trying to do! But I suppose this is, of course, dependent upon the learners point of view. As with everything!
For me the bottom is basic plant/soil/climate function and behaviour.
Let's see what happens .....
23 Mar 2009 by zoid
OK!
Poa
Fertilizers are made up of salts. Excess salt in the soil solution reduces osmotic potential thus causing fert burn as the plant can't take in water. If applied in times of drout the problem worsens.
Why then do we apply slow release fertilizers to grass surfaces of many types in say June, when the possibility of drout in late June/July could cause significant damage to the turf?
Is there an argument then against using slow release in summer and just saving them for spring and autumn applications if at all?
23 Mar 2009 by Martin Ward
Eddie21
Your paspalum question from a few days back puts me on the spot as its not too common in Surrey so we have no practical experience but by coincidence I was asked the same question this morning re grass in Dubai and a quick check of published research tends to suggest that even if dune grasses like paspalum are not more mycorrhizal then they are certainly very reliant on mycorrhizae. A good summary is the last paragraph in the summary of the thesies below
Yamato, M; Ikeda, S; Iwase, K. 2008
Paspalum distichum (Poaceae)
"An efficient suppression of Na+ stop translocation into the shoot by the examined AM fungi was found. These results suggested that the AM fungi dominant near the sea are adapted to salt-stressed environment to alleviate the salt stress of host plants. "
AM = arbuscular mycorrhizal
Another thesis
Sheng, M; Tang, M; Chen, H; Yang, BW; Zhang, FF; Huang, YH. 2008. Influence of arbuscular mycorrhizae on photosynthesis and water status of maize plants under salt stress
"All the results show that G. mosseae alleviates the deleterious effect of salt stress on plant growth, through improving plant water status, chlorophyll concentration, and photosynthetic capacity"
G Mosseae and G Intraradices are probably the two most common mycorrhizae found on grass roots.
I am sure there must be some practical experiences of mycorrhizal inoculation of new sports turf grasses in hot seasisde climates but sadly I have not yet had the opportunity to work on one.
This research does suggest that the higher the conductivity of your irrigation water the more necessary it is to have mycorrhizal colonisation of the root zone.
Hope this helps
24 Mar 2009 by Ken Barber
Come on you guy's....... Why has this thread died before it even got started?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
24 Mar 2009 by zoid
I can only answer for myself and as no-one's answered my question about sr ferts, I'm sulking.
Anyway, it hasn't died it's just having a rest.
:-)
There maybe a few, like me, who are a bit scared of saying too much in such knowledgeable company for fear looking a complete prat?
25 Mar 2009 by Mal
I think you may find that with a lot of the threads not just this one, at the moment there is not much input and I guess like here at our club, the weathers warm, there is still moisture in the ground and things are moving now making us all busy people. I am admittidly restricting myself to dipping in having a read then getting out to work..........Mostly 
Geography is everywhere
25 Mar 2009 by Poa7
Zoid is correct - the thread is having a rest.
I for one, have been really busy lately and, typically, the wife is a nagging that I spend too much time on the computer a night.....!
Will be on tonight though.....
The first rule of this post (as stated in the initial post) is that no-one is wrong! We all have opinion's and methods we can discuss anything here and so we will! It could go on for years! lol
25 Mar 2009 by Martin Ward
zoid
sulk not its a good and difficult question and takes time to answer, which i have not got - but a quick thought which may be irrelevent but!.
Sandy rootzones leach salts effectively as part of the design to prevent a long term build up as in theory the excess should get flushed away with winter rains.
You also irrigate more in summer and our rainfall is fairly constant so there is possibly no long term accumulation in salt levels which is why grass survives with high nutrient inputs even if the soil biology dies resulting in thatch build up and disease. So in chemically managed grass SR fertilisers will do what they say on the packet.
It would be very interesting to compare the results between greens or pitches irrigated with high and low conductivity levels in their irrigation water to see what type of nutrition works best when conductivity by necessity is maintained at a high level.
25 Mar 2009 by jlawrence
zoid, interesting about the top down, bottom up.
I think part of the problem many people have with this sort of discussion is because we tend to discuss from the bottom up - ie start with a problem and perhaps end up with the science behind the problem.
There is a problem with that scenario. If you don't understand some of the science (or theories or whatever they actually are) behind this soil web malarky then you would never know whether there is a potential problem - or an actual problem - within your surface which getting everything in balance could help solve.
I'll admit a heck of a lot of the discussion makes my brain hurt. After a lot of reading it is (slowly) starting to make some sense though.
As for not getting involved for fear of looking a prat. I'm an expert at looking a prat so I lost the fear of that long ago .
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
25 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 25 Mar 2009
Great question from Mr Zoid here -
Why then do we apply slow release fertilizers to grass surfaces of many types in say June, when the possibility of drout in late June/July could cause significant damage to the turf?
Is there an argument then against using slow release in summer and just saving them for spring and autumn applications if at all?
Why apply fertilisers in the summer?
FOR
- We need to, we constantly mow the grass and in many instances remove the leaf from the site (prevents re-cycling of leaf nutrient) this forces the plant to grow and use energy and produce plant matter, we therefore need nutrients - plant growth is therefore good!
- We are paid to manage sports turf, people want to play sport on nice surfaces, fertilisers help us manage growth on surfaces - plant growth is good!
- With people trampling all over these playing sufaces, wear is created, plant growth repairs wear - plant growth is therefore good!
- People believe that 'green' equals good, a good healthy plant, is always green - not necessarily true, but the wider public perception is this! Some fertilisers help make the plant green, these therefore make me look good!
- Grasses need fertilisers to grow, we must supply (or take care of) the demand to help them do this.
AGAINST
- The plant actually kicks back in the summer, cool season grasses do not deal with heat very well, their response to this is to reduce growth for both leaf and root
- If the plant is not growing so well why do we fertilise? (see FOR)
- If we are fertilising what are we using? Anything will do won't it? So long as we see the NPK percentge it is all just fine?!? Isn't it?
- How do we know if a slow release fertiliser is actually releasing? When does it release, what mechanisms do I need to action to make it release? How can I measure this?
There are many articles in the turf press on fertilisers. Who actually reads them here? If I said to you, "what is the best type of Nitrogen to use in a saline (salty) soil?" Would you know the answer? You are the manager, what is best?
I'm not trying to provoke an answer here, but you get my drift?
Now, what is the most important factor with grasses/fertilisers in the summer. The grass does grow, but slowly, we want to encourage the plant to grow, so we NEED .............. WATER! We can use fertilisers to help us manage, but the most critical factor will be controlling/monitoring/ensuring we have adequate water to encouage the plant to grow and making sure the fertiliser we use, is used wisely and only when absolutely necessary.
Onto salts in soils......
We are lucky enough to live in a cool/humid climate here in the UK. Salt deposited from the air is low (unless you are coastal), drainage rates in sportsturf are generally good, we do not suffer greatly from raised water tables, our irrigation water quality is great, and we generally will not suffer from lack of rainfall
Salts in soils become a problem when evapotranspiration (water lost from the soil) exceeds the amount of rainfall or irrigation and salts can move upward. Generally, in this country, the movement of salts in soils will be downward. Washed through and away.
Lastly, the primary source of salts in most all indigenous soils is the parent material itself.
Sorry for the late post - was watching the apprentice!
25 Mar 2009 by zoid Last edited 26 Mar 2009
Phew!
It's a bit late now to digest Poa's and Martin's posts but thanks to you both for answering or at least commenting on my question.
Jon,
I am also suffering from 'brain hurt' but when I'm digging out a ditch tomorrow on a bowling green I look after, these discussions will give me something to think about other than 'have I got my spade straight'!
Great stuff!
26 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Poa7
very enjoyable last post , interesting reading
As for applying summer feed's , this would have to be determined by the summer itself surely , if we have another very wet one ( i hope not ) that nutrient retention would be low as due to the amount of rainfall , as for haveing a very hot summer over applying feeds would put the plant under more stress ?
So the correct type of fertilizer for the conditions at the time
As for knowing that a fertilizer is working , this could be judged by the amount of clippings that you are removing , but also soil moisture content can surely make a difference on the results
26 Mar 2009 by zoid
But h2m, if you put down a 12 week release, how do you know what the weather is going to do in those 12 weeks?
26 Mar 2009 by Poa7
I've been thinkng! :-0
How about we look at something that is very important to us all? In fact, this thing is what we are all about. Even our job roles describe it....
It's called the turf grass plant, we are called turf managers, how much do we really know about what we are managing?
Should we take a quick look at the preferences for growing conditions for the most popular species of grass plant used in sports turf? (by this I mean, preferred pH, need for nutrients, water requirements, rooting habits, etc., etc.)
Nothing too heavy, just a whistle stop tour to give us all a good grounding!
Thoughts? Prefererred grass genus & species to look at? What do you think?
26 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
zoid
Good point , but then is that a good reason to use or not to use as you dont have the control over them , as we cant get tomorrows weather right . let alone next week
As for the weather here we have had about 5 mm over the past 3 weeks , done some planting recently and the soil was bone dry 6 inches down , and this is march
26 Mar 2009 by jlawrence Last edited 26 Mar 2009
zoid, I have a feeling that you're a lot like me in not liking the idea of slow release any where near your cricket square. The last thing you want is a slow release just happening to release on a track that you've just prepared for a match.
I can see that slow release could have a place on my outfield, but I don't like the idea of putting anything on the square which could activate at some point (which isn't exactly determinable) in the future.
Poa7, I can't speak for the others but I do believe that I am lacking in the basic understanding of exactly what my species (DPR) of grass requires. I'm learning but it is a slow process. Biology for sure wasn't one of my strong subjects at school - might have been different if I'd been in the class with the cute teacher ;).
I'd suggest that we stuck to the 3 main genus that we use - Lolium (Rye), Festuca (Fescue) & Agrostis (Bent).
I think that those are the main three that we use (in the various sports) in our climate. All three have their very different requirements and eccentricities - not sure whether a grass plant can be eccentric or not though :).
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
26 Mar 2009 by zoid
h2m
Good point , but then is that a good reason to use or not to use as you dont have the control over them
I honestly don't know that's why I'm here to learn from you guys!
jon
I was taught on my level 3 not to use sr's in case the roller crushed them, causing all sorts of problems! Only on the outfield and bowling greens for me.
poa
how about going top down/bottom up on this one and consider all those factors in relation to overseeding fescue into a poa sward?
Well you did ask for requests?
26 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Well i will give it a try , but a long way short of some of you guy's , but it's the only way we learn . at best it will get the ball rolling
fescue
low water requirements and also low fert input ( and leave me alone )
bents
medium amounts of fert say about 80 kg of n per year and also medium to high amounts of h2o ( but no people who maintain bent greens on about 30 units per year )
poa
thrives on feed , water and compaction
rye
not had much to deal with apart from the patches i dont want in greens but i would say high amounts of feed
26 Mar 2009 by Poa7
lol Zoid - top / up / down / bottom with a bit of sideways it is then!
26 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Zoid
you wont learn that much from me , apart from a empty head lol
but like you always willing to learn, and i dont mind asking questions whatever , it's better to know than not to
i was always told years ago that turfcare is a science an art and a bit of good luck
26 Mar 2009 by zoid
I'll learn lots from you h2m.
You have the two most important characteristics of a great grass man: enthusiasm and common sense.
The problem (?) with this thread is that it gets me going to read my texts, I often find answers but then go on to read a lot more and before you know it, it's time for bed!
27 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
Well I dunno, this thread's got away from me a bit.
However, with regard to grass aren't the breeders(?) always trying to breed new cultivars to deal with different situations? What influence does this have on a given grass species requirements?
I read on Soil Food Web Inc. that roots should really go down to 10s if not 100s of feet. Dunno about that one.
An article in the latest issue of the magazine, "Friendly Fungi" remarks that ".........when turf is managed the mycorrhiza is generally lost.........." i.e. the soil is relatively sterile.
No mycorrhiza, no plant stimulation. No plant stimulation, no reciprocal stimulation for the (non-existent) mycorrhiza.
According to the article this would aid in root growth which would give secondary benefits such as more efficient use of nutrients leading to a rationalisation of fertiliser input.
It's all wheels within wheels really. If I may put it this way, if you get 1, A, and X right then 2 & 3, B & C, and Y & Z will naturally follow.
Does that make sense?
From the posh end of the room!!
27 Mar 2009 by jlawrence
That does make sense Aladdin.
What I'm hoping to gain from all this (apart from a better basic understanding of how things work) is: if I modify the level of A what do I have to do to X & Y to bring everything back into balance.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
27 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
A point that has been raised earlier about the 3 main species fescue /bent and rye , are we not forgetting poa as without this plant there would be a lot of surfaces that would be bare ?
It is at the end of the day us who give this plant what it needs to survive ,and produce top quality surfaces from it , we have learned to manage it so why can't we learn to manage other species as well , which is why we all want to learn
As zoid said earlier about introducing fescue into a poa sward , is this down to the plant and process or down to our maintenance regime ? ( not meant to cause offence zoid )
But some of the clubs with very little money , and very little input into the green can still produce higher amounts of fescue than i do , ?
27 Mar 2009 by zoid
None taken h2m!
Could it be that their secret is indeed little input? ie little watering and little fertilizer helping the fescue to outcompete the poa?
That's the theory I'm working on on my bowling green but it's hard going on a tiny budget and a wadge of thatch!
27 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Zoid
In my opinion less is sometimes more , as for feed and water i think a gentle turn in the direction that you need to be is better than one quick turn , as we all need to keep our jobs
I to have a green with some thatch about 30 mm plus and wall to wall poa , a diet of high n. p.k. and 1200 gallons of water a day and zero roots , if you took a soil sample and put your finger in the hole you could lift the green up
But after a meeting last friday , when i showed them what had been achieved , 3 inches of root and some good areas of fescue , bent coming through , and the green feels a lot firmer . gives you some lift i can tell you
So i suppose its about finding a balance that keeps all turf species happy and to move eventually to the required results , which all of us on here are aiming for
Well i am of to the pub for a few , been a busy week
but by the time this thread finishes we should have another piece or two of the jigsaw
28 Mar 2009 by Aladdin Last edited 28 Mar 2009
Referring back to Mr. Poa's request for a "whistle stop tour" of the various grass plants, I Goooooogled "Perennial Ryegrass" and below is the first thing I found. It refers to my grass as a weed!!! 
How dare they?
A couple of things that caught my eye:
"Perennial rye-grass can survive a period of immersion in seawater and withstands the effect of salt contaminated soil. It can also tolerate trampling."
Now, I reckon this is very interesting:
"The root feeding larvae of the cranefly (Tipula paludosa), a pest of grassland, graze the roots of perennial rye-grass. However, this stimulates the growth of the grass perhaps because the roots that regrow are finer and more efficient. Root-grazed rye-grass plants were more competitive against broad-leaved dock (Rumex obtusifolius)."
Is the leatherjacket therefore our friend?? 
Edit: Be a good idea to supply the link I think:
http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/organicweeds/weed_information/weed.php?id=91
From the posh end of the room!!
28 Mar 2009 by zoid
There's a big difference between English rye and the dwarf varieties you manage Aladdin!
There appears to be evidence that preying on what we think of as the good guys such as roots or 'good' organisms can have beneficial effects.
The 'biota'(?) that break down organic matter and turn it into available nitrate, I believe, reproduce much faster when attacked by their natural prey. It stimulates them into action.
As to leather jackets, it may well turn out, that in balance, they have a beneficial effect as well? The question is, what causes them to become unbalanced in terms of numbers and cause indisputable damage to the turf and what can we do to maintain that balance?
Or maybe what should we not do?
Now I'm confused again.
28 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
very interesting link there Aladdin, some good info all round and well worth looking at.
Rye's/ yorkshire fog etc etc and weeds
No home work you said ? rofl ,it's like being back at school, but much more interesting
Some more info on grass species
creeping bent
ph 5.6 to 7.0, salt tolerance is very good ,and an amazing 16,000 seed's per gram
chewing fescue
ph 5.5 to 6.8, salt tolerance is weak
ryegrass
ph 5.8 to 7.4 , salt tolerance is medium
poa
ph 5.5 to 7.5, salt tolerance is weak
One thing i have learned from this is that most grasses will grow in a similar ph range ,also the amount of seed in a gram 700 for rye with an outstanding 16,000 for agrostis
28 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
6 hours ago by zoid
"There's a big difference between English rye and the dwarf varieties you manage Aladdin!"
I fully accept that my knowledge of different grass species is minimal to say the least. I simply googled "Perennial Ryegrass" and that was the first thing that came up. I think it's clear that the website in question is looking at things more from an agricultural POV.
Nonetheless, every little bit helps and, believe me, I'm learning every minute of every day!!
By the way, is it possible to provide a link to the evidence you mention? I think I'd find it interesting
From the posh end of the room!!
28 Mar 2009 by Aladdin
Referring back to Mr. Zoid's post again, what happens when the grass plant is threatened by a natural predator?
I'm thinking of pests/weed/diseases here.
In most/all cases do we not apply a chemical to get rid?
In doing so, are we not doing the plant's job for it?
In the case of disease, are we not preventing the plant from building up a natural resistance?
Having said that, one cannot, obviously, let the disease run riot so what's the answer? Is there one?
Similarly with natural predators such as leatherjackets as mentioned above. Mr. Zoid, to my mind, asks a very good question.
From the posh end of the room!!
28 Mar 2009 by zoid
The plot thickens aladdin!
Some scientists have identified a fungus which kills little critters in the soil (springtails) and sucks out their nitrogen, passing it on to their host plant in exchange for carbohydrates.
"Nitrovampiric Fungus"!
(I just made that up)
Now springtails are only just macroscopic and therefore much smaller than leatherjackets but maybe some plants have just supersized?
:-)
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_14_159/ai_104730213/
We really don't know what we are talking about do we alladin/h2m but it's fun finding out?
In five or six years, this might all make sense and provide us with a methodolgy to improve our sports surface management!
29 Mar 2009 by has 2 mow
Hi guys
Is this private tuition or very small classrooms , well i am with you guy's a bit lost , what's the saying ( i've started so i will finish )
29 Mar 2009 by zoid
I think these discussions and those initiated by Ian Mac have served to make us aware that there's a lot more going on under the grass than perhaps we were aware of before?
Although we may not understand the science to an advanced level, we a least now know, that there are practices that can undermine the biological processes in our soils that are vital to plant health. OK maybe we knew that already but I for one didn't really know why. Bit by bit it's starting to make sense
I'm not sure yet what to do with this knowledge and I know I've only just scratched the surface but it beats watching Big Brother.
Anyway, poa asked us to discuss grass and I feel remiss that I haven't attempted a stab at it yet but I'll have a go later.
1 Apr 2009 by Aladdin
Back to the beginning for moi!!
“What allows the grass plant to compete at its best and how do we prevent this with sports turf maintenance operations”
Mr Poa has answered his own question earlier in the thread but I'll throw in my tuppence worth anyway.
What allows the grass plant to compete at it's best?
I think we're all agreed that a healthy soil = a healthy grass.
Therefore we're back to the Soil Food Web. How much detail do we go into though?
The grass need various macro and micro nutrients some of which are adsorbed and absorbed by the leaf and some by the roots.
In a "natural" environment this would occur, er, naturally, would it not?
In a sports turf environment do we not damage(manage) the grass? Grass wasn't really "designed" to be mowed was it?
If it was "designed" for anything then that would surely be grazing.
Again, taking us back to the soil food web.
This picture/diagram should make clear what I mean:
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/03_about_us/approach_pgs/a_02_sfw_dgrm_lrg.html
Now isn't animal dung nature's own fertiliser?
Animals graze and then put back nutrients that benefit the plant. Correct?
Then the whole cycle starts again. I know there's more to it but that's basically what happens isn't it?
How do we prevent this with sports turf maintenance operations?
Machinery is an immediate and obvious answer. Compaction and various types of damage especially if used in wrong conditions.
The application (or perhaps the mis-application) of fertiliser because of salt content.
Wrong cultural practices. But are they right for a given sports surface?
That's my general take on it and hopefully it's food for thought.
Like Mr. Lawrence I'd like to know if it's possible to have things in some sort of balance if you do something that is wrong according to nature but right for your given sport. Anyone know?
From the posh end of the room!!
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