Hi,
Solid tining - does it actually really do anything? I have my doubts.
If you start with a sand based green of a nomimal bulk density 1.6, with some micro and macro pores and then solid tine it, you end up with with a sand based green of the same bulk density with now less micro and macro pores but instead some big holes running through it.
Now air is a very small thing, I can't believe that somehow air can get down a 8m tine hole but not between two grains of sand. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that solid tining has no positive effect on aeration taken as an average across the whole soil profile.
Water might be a different thing, as perhaps the effect of surface tension in really big holes is less therefore hydraulic conductivity might increase compared to the unspiked green with just it's pore spaces?
I could see why you might spike a clay soil to let surface water through, but this is effectively bypassing the soil not changing it's properties, and I can't see how it would work either unless the clay was sitting over another more permeable layer.
An academic question this one, for the time being at least, but I'm curious, is there a definitive answer out there? Is there any empirical evidence?
Thanks for your thoughts.
16 Mar 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 16 Mar 2009
I think you have just answered your own question. You seem to have thought about it and drawn some very 'thoughtful' opnions.
Personally I would not solid tine though I would 'sarrell' roll the thatch layer, especially in summer.
'Edited Sarrell'
Solid tining has its place, usually during the summer, to a shallow depth, i.e. sarrell roller, or on a sand based construction where the the surface has become thatchy and "punching through the surface" will let gaseous exchange take place, so encouraging the soilweb to breathe.
Other than that I feel that on a crown green which sheds water freely a solid tine will have benefits, particularly when the green is out of play seasonally.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
16 Mar 2009 by Mike
Personally, I don't know the answer. I often read of people questioning solid tining for aeration benefits. I have put a lot of thought into the ins and outs of solid tining and the only answer that I can come up with is actually a question. I asked this question on here once before and no-one answered, so i'll ask again. The question is, do worms aerate?
I was always told that worms are the best form of aeration available, but if you think about it, they don't remove any soil to allow a reduction in bulk density, so a worm is effectively a solid tine, right?
Worms and there activity are to be encouraged Mike. Problem that most of us have is with the casting ones, approx. 3 to 4 species. It is the cast that is the problem in many sports surfaces, so the worms have to go.
A simple test to see wether solid tining is beneficial, is look at 2 similar surfaces over 2 or 3 years (or split your surface in 2!!) 1 that has been solid tines, then look at the other surface which has'nt.
I would bet that the area that has been solid tined would be in better condition, assuming they had the same maintenance, and i also bet there are very few people prepared to split one of there surfaces in half to try it out.
I do think, like with all aeration, there is only so much it will achieve on it's own, so it needs to be done in conjunction with other aeration to see the full benefit, but i think this applies to all aeration practices - if you only carry out 1 type of aeration then you will only achieve so much.
17 Mar 2009 by chrismitchell Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Solid tining is always one of those not quite sure things. It certainly opens the surface to allow air down into the ground. In effect though it is compacting the ground surrounding the hole and smearing the sides of it. As the tine comes up out of the hole it has just produced it must give a slight lift to the the ground unless the ground is too wet. In effect that would give compaction relief! It is very good for getting water into very dry soils but in anything apart from a sandy soil the water will just sit in the holes if used to try and help drainage in wet spells. My personal preference is for slit tining which has a far greater surface area and depth. I appreciate though it is the last thing you should do on a square! I think we have to say though that solid tining certaily does something, otherwise there would be very little root in cricket squares after all the summer rolling they recieve.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
Some interesting thoughts and conclusions. Mine for what its worth is that soild tining is beneficial.... I have solid tined 4 times in the last 4 weeks, using 4" inch pencil tines. My greens are USGA (of sorts) and and 3 years ago they were badly effected by blacklayer. I use solid tineing as part of an assortment of methods... verti-drain spring and autumn, double sarrell roll weekly, occasionally slit tine, and soild tine 12 or more times each year.
Without looking too deep into sand types and their speed of erosion etc. sand is an inert material, it can not be reduced in size by solid tining so it must be forced away from the point of pressure. roots will readily grow in tine holes (how often have you seen a verti-drain hole filled with white roots). If roots mass tine holes, it is logical they will spread laterally also. If your soil food web is healthy, then this will speed up this process or more likely to occur.
Any form of aeration is beneficial...... beneficial bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes and many more varieties of beneficial soil organisms that form the soil food web, all need oxygen to proliferate.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
17 Mar 2009 by taffy
a good question this an im sure everyone has their own opinions on the subject. As chris has said above it opens up the surface to allow for gaseous exchange and to let water in. We all know that this is an essential part of turf grass health. And I always maintain 'could we as human beings survive without air???'. So in one form or another we need to get air into the rootzone. However it is often confused that just to solid tine with no heave will relieve compaction and signifigantlly improve drainage. As chris said above normal solid tining as with any other form of aeration is techincally compacting the soil around where the tine enters the ground. The only way to decompact signifigantly is to actually create some movement of the soil. I believe that solid tining is essential to the health of turf grasses as after all it is a from of 'aeration' allowing the turfgrass to breathe. After introducing a regualr spiking regime this autumn to my bowling greens and cricket squares using solid tines every 3 weeks i have noticed a marked increase in rooting and surface firmness. By keeping the surface open I have also cut down and almost minimised to need for fungicides.
Cheers Taffy
17 Mar 2009 by turfjack Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Chalky
Your reasoning makes some sense however I also believe solid tining has its benefits. If you think about it, many of the micro pores are filled with roots etc which reduce water and air movement, so adding extra channels certainly help.
I needle tine my (USGA spec) greens throughout the summer and without it they certainly wouldn't make it. I have a few problem greens (no/little air movement, shade issues) that really benefit from it as they never dry out. The first time I used the needle tines it was amazing to see how dry the top 6" were as soon as I was finished, as was menctioned it greatly reduced black layer, disease incidence and general stress. I definitley see less of a difference on the open greens but feel it still helps them throughout the summer.
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
Its all about the soil type AND condition when its done, if you are proactive and aerating when times are good then the best benefits are given, kneejerk reactive aeration in desperation invariably are problematic... IMHO
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hi Alan,
I am not familiar with needle tines..... what size are they? does the machine push them directly from above or are they on a drum type machine?
My 4" inch tines penetrate on a drum roller system (Sissis). They do not penetrate directly in a downward motion and consequently enter and exit on a slight angle. I checked it out today and found the rootzone easier to push a knife into within 30mm radius of each hole. So it must have benefits and does not compact the rootzone around each tine hole!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hey Ken
I have them fitted to the Toro 648, so they pretty much enter straight up and down. I have a roller fitted to it also that smooths the surface when I'm done. The first time I did it in play, the members told me to aerate more as the greens got faster.... I believe there's 60 tines on it, I'll double check the size later and try and get a picture them (unfortunately I think they're off both machines right now).
Before I bought this set up I used a Sandpro spiker, again it helped but the little tines are much better by being deeper and less aggressive. I certainly don't see any compaction, however it is on sand, it's amazing how trashed the area the soil in side the cup hole gets.
I also bought a Aera-vator last year for my roughs. Like you described, as soon as I made a pass I was able to probe the areas between the holes, so it definitely helped.
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
Hmm,
All excellent responses, if I may say so.
Some thing that catches my eye in particular is the idea of tine holes not so much producing air spaces but working as channels.
Certainly it does seem a tine hole helps roots establish, giving they a head start in a way they don't seem to get through the smaller pore spaces however numerous. (Not in my greens so far at any rate). A root channel isn't aerification though.
Perhaps air does conduct through a few large holes better than many small ones; could air be drawn in or out of soil, there by creating a greater volume of gas exchange than would otherwise happen by passive diffusion alone?
I would love to find out if someone had spent 2 or 3 years just spiking half a green, the STRI perhaps? If not I might be prepared try it myself; would Wiedenmann like to lend me a GXi aerator for the duration of the trial! ;-)
Alright, I will concede solid tining can be beneficial, as the practical experience of so many can attest. I'm just of that mindset I like to understand exactly why and what I'm doing. That point of Mike A's about the worms is especially interesting, altthough the casting ones are more like little hollow corers than solid tines; still can't love them though.
Chalky,
I believe the STRI are, or about to, carry out a spiking trial. On what surfaces i am not sure.
17 Mar 2009 by Mike Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Chalky - As bath rightly pointed about above, there are very few species of worms that create casts.
I was referring to the none casting species which move through the soil, and whilst doing so displace the soil, much in the same way as a solid tine does. This is the part that confuses me as many people say that solid tining (displacing soil) creates sideways compaction. I understand this point, but if we took two big tanks full of soil, one with worms and one without, and we left them alone for one year, when we returned which would have the more compacted soil of the two? Surely it would have to be the tank with the worms in, as the aeration benefits that worms create has been written many times over.
Using my worm analogy, I have come to the conclusion that the initial benefits of solid tine aeration are gaseous exchange and aeration through the slight heave when the tine is removed from the soil, and the longer term benefits are from the migration of the soil back into the aeration holes which reduces compaction - or that's my take on things anyway!
Mike, the worms do not push the soil aside, they eat it! The casts that they leave are soil that they have eaten and digested, this is the manner in which they move soil around and incorporate OM into the soil. You can create a wormery by putting soil between two panes of glass and then filling with a layer of soil then a layer of sand, repeat to the top and add some leaves, the worms will move the soil around and drag the leaves down into the soil, the layersof soil/sand will be mixed up by the worms.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
17 Mar 2009 by Mike Last edited 17 Mar 2009
Steve, what about none casting worms? Do they ingest the soil? If they are moving throught the soil and not excreting it via a wormcast, surely they can't be eating the soil as with no form of exretion, or else we would be looking at some pretty darn chubby worms!!
From the speed of some of the worms I have seen move into and through soil I find it hard to imagine that they are ingesting the soil as fast as they are moving through it. I am aware that in many cases worms are moving slowly through the soil, ingesting and excreting it as they go, as you rightly point out. I may well be wrong on this point, and I admit that I need to do a lot more reading up before I fully understand they dynamics of worms in soil, but I 'think' that there is some sideways compaction as they move, and to transfer this point into the aeration field, I have seen a few people point out on here that even when hollowcoring there is a certain degree of sideways movement in the soil as the tine enters the soil.
I agree with your point about the wormery and how worms introduce OM into the soil profile, but my points were specifically relating to the aeration benefits of worms, which I was under the impression were made as the worms move through the profile, displacing soil (either by sideways movement or ingestion) as they move.
I might well be way off with my reasoning with worms and aeration, but I do feel that this is a grey area, and that there is a lot of mileage to run in this point.
OK some compaction occurs around tine holes but they are not permanent holes so as they re-fill the soil moves back into them. This process is relatively quicker in sandy soil, particularly when it dries, meanwhile the gaseous exchange has taken place. The merits must outweigh the temporary demerits, from most contributors' experiences.
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
17 Mar 2009 by Mike
Here is an except from another website about how worms move through soil:
"The earthworm is well adapted for living in the soil, and has been around doing so for at least 90 million years. It moves through the soil by creating a tunnel ahead of it, digging with the help of a shovel shaped area on its head. When the worm detects a fissure in the soil it pokes this shovel in and scrapes away dirt until it can move ahead. The body is covered with microscopic hairs that help it to move forward, as well as a coating of lubricant that reduces friction. Their mouth is also at the front of the head so that they can eat soil as well as displace it, taking nutrients from the soil and excreting the remainder."
This isn't scientific research as far as I am aware, so I can't say if it is definitively right or wrong, but it ties in with my points regarding how the worms move through the soil, creating channels via soil displacement as they move.
If you think about it the casting species of worm are vital for the existance of the non casting species. No open ended runs bored to the surface and the non casters would suffocate! To smoothe the passing of the soil through the innards of the worm a mucas is mixed in with soil. That is the reason wormcasts are so sticky and set solid when dry.
K
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
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Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
and a close up of the tine holder
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
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Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
18 Mar 2009 by turfjack Last edited 18 Mar 2009
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Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
18 Mar 2009 by Mike
I seem to recall using similair tines to the above needle tines back in my greenkeeping days, on our GA30.
I can't be sure, but if my memory serves me correct, we had a disease on our 5th green, and when we submitted a soil sample to the stri, they come back to us with the description of the disease (the hg called it "elephants foot", I have never heard of it since), and they prescribed a very intensive program of needle tining which eventually cured the problem.
Alan, only you Americans can express a measurment as a metric fraction of an inch! What ever is point 2 an inch? You guys need to join the rest of the world so we can all understand you! (tongue in cheek). The guys in europe will be getting their calculators out!. Seems a similar tine to the sisis micro tines available in the UK. Don't last too long on push up greens though. 18 holes max. As a rough calculation the tines are 5mm thick and 150mm long.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
mm, what are they????? I know, I know... I'm doubly screwed being Irish an all..... It only took about 10 years to learn the wrong way to measure things!!!!!
I get about 36 holes out of them on sand, which isn't too bad, although buying 60 of 'em can get pricey...
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
Hi Alan,
Chris is old enough to remember feet and inches and pounds, shilling and pence....... I doubt he would recognise a punt though?
Can I borrow your machine sometime Alan.... I don't mind collecting it?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Oh even I can remember paying 2 punt for a Pint of the black stuff..... spent far too many too from memory...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Elephants foot disease = thatch fungus I believe.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
"Can I borrow your machine sometime Alan.... I don't mind collecting it?"
sure, anytime, getting it across the atlantic might be an issue though!!!
it's been a long time since i had a 2 punt pint of the black stuff, although i did find $3 pints of Carlsberg last night 
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
You chaps may find this interesting...
http://www.areagolfe.com/pdf/dryject/dryject4.pdf
Joe
Outwith micro tine, solid aeration method without heave is a complete waste of time and merely compacts the soil around the tine with increased bulk density of this in between soil.
mad4mud
Surely a solid tine leaving the ground vertically is creating heave, upwards as opposed to sideways.
The solid tine machine that I use is a Sisis supaturfman, the benifit with this machine is that as the machine drives forward on the tine drum it is heaving all the time, not so good for cricket, apart from autumn, but ok on other surfaces.
Solid tine s will without doubt heave upwards, unless, it is so wet that the tines slide very easily and therefore you shouldn't be solid tining in those sort of conditions.
The purpose of solid tining is to punch through one type of material to allow gaseous exchange and/or water infiltration into another type of medium, i.e. thatch with soil beneath.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
'Mad'
have you read the earlier posts, where others have made considered contributions similar to the one by Steve, above?
It's a matter of balance between the different effects, as with most actions.
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
Slit tine would give increased surface area to allow gas exchange with less compaction on the sides. And on drum type it would really achieve lots of surface area?
mad4mud
Slit tines are still solid tines! Without having both to hand to measure and compare, 'pencil' tines and 'chisel' tines I would think have very similar displacement.
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
Don't know the science of it but surely philmort the side pressure must decrease as the slit is thin and therefore less side pressure causing compaction.
mad4mud
Come on mad4mud.....Take them there blinkers off my friend. 30 + years ago.... when tools were few and far between, we keepers of the green managed to reduce compaction with basic aeration tools i.e. solid, hollow or slit tines. Most of which required blood, sweat and tears to operate and most of us only had one or the other and not spoilt for choice like you are today!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Chisels are about 2x longer than the diameter of pencils, hence compact an area similar to each other, the slits actually causing less lateral displacement but over a longer distance. The holes left by pencil tines will collapse in time, relieving the compaction, slits have little to go to close so won't allow gaseous exchange for as long?
Have just followed the link given by Joe above (meant to look earlier) which seems to debunk much of what we have been saying!!! It seems that in the average bowls green scenario during the season the only thing to truly create decompaction would be the good old garden fork but the bowlers wouldn't like the effect on the run of their woods!!
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
Compaction, displacement or whatever title it is given and/or the negative or positive effects must surely depend on the time of year and ground condition. i.e. insert any solid implement in a wet clay soil and it would be like pushing a knife into butter. Push that same tine into the same soil in the summer and, assuming it penetrated, it would displace the clay rather than smear it! Extremes I know, but change this to a loam soil, push a tine in the ground in the middle of winter, several frosts later and the side walls of that hole would collapse due to the freezing and thawing action. Two extreme situations, but simply put any form of aeration is beneficial, its down to timing and aerator used in relation to soil type and ground conditions.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
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