I had proudly thought I'd cleared the moss problem on our ground which three years ago when I took over pitch maintenance covered about 50% of our square.
I had noticed some moss after I reduced my cut to 12mm at the beginning of April so decided to spray the square with iron mixture. To my horror the square is now speckled,in some places large areas with black which looks horrible.
Also there are large areas on the edge of the square, where it meets the outfield,where the moss is brown and quite thick and a few areas within the square that this has appeared.
Having spiked,rigorously scarified,seeded and top dressed last October and for the previous two years this has come as a bit of a blow and in some way rather frightens me that having done all this work I'm nearly back to square 1.
All thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Greg
26 Apr 2009 by zoid Last edited 26 Apr 2009
Hello Greg
Blackening of the moss is unavoidable. It'll go.
I just wonder what seed rate you used and why you don't mention fertilizer?
My first thoughts as well Zoid.
Hi Greg, both zoid and bath have much purpose to relate to fertilizer as impoverished soil is a catalyst to moss inclusion!(but ) many other factors are evident to it's establishment? So people advocate lime for to correct this disorder. Whilst lime may well be tantamount to its regression by altering Ph it has no direct effect on the plant itself! An old trick? and working in conjunction with cultural control is to apply Baking Soda dissolved in loop warm water at a rate of 500gm to 15litre's of water. This will take care of the current composition of this unwanted plant but you must further it's eradication with your particular environmental limiting factor. This very old and inexpensive method does work and is kind to your needs. Good luck Greg. Kindest Regards. Ian Mac
Greg,
I've never seen an established cricket square that was 100% moss free. Perhaps the 1st class squares are moss free, but at club level there's always some in there. The job is to control the amount and impact of the moss.
The iron will inevitably turn any moss black and once that has happened you either have to get it out, or accept discolouration - but it's very difficult to clear black moss if it's only 2mm high. Personally I don't manage to clear it all, but I will hand rub out patches on a prepared track.
Be cautious with Ian Mac's advice. I don't understand how this method kills the moss - it might - but if repeated this method will only increase your pH which, depending on your current pH, may give you other problems, eg worms. He also doesn't advise how much area to treat with 15 litres of solution. Is this sprayed or applied with a watering can? The area treated will be at least a factor of 10 different depending on method.
Of course, the counter to this is that iron sulphate will reduce your pH. If your soil is already acidic this may not be something you want.
The ciderman rolls
Hi Jon,
Most peoples irrigation is above pH 7. The pH of my irrigation water, which is drawn from a spring fed lake, is pH 8 and I add an acidifier to my spray tank to bring it back down to around pH 6.
I don't think applying either sulphate of Iron or baking soda will have any effect on the pH of your soil, assuming it is applied in moderation. If it does, it will be temporary and only in the surface area. I would prefer to go your route though, since it is beneficial to the sward and hurts the moss.... double edged as it were!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Greetings Jon, I would suggest Greg should be cautious with all advice directed and not just Ian Mac's, although on this occasion it is backed with forty six years of turf management, "now" Jon, thats a lot, is it not? The science behind my claim I don't know? (but) I do know, it Works! With regard to changing the Ph with a single application of soda? well" come on Jon. Greg, drench the moss areas with this solution without having too much concern with measured work. To finish, this solution works better with Hypnum and Ceratodon species. Keep an open mind Greg and get rid of your Moss allowing you to work on the cultural aspects of keeping it out. Good luck, Ian Mac
Thanks everyone for your responses.I put down fertiliser and seed before top soiling in October and believe I didn't put enough seed down which has contributed to the problem.However if the seed doesn't take until early April but moss gets in over winter I don't know how this will really make a difference.
Once again any thoughts please.
Greg
28 Apr 2009 by zoid
I'm not sure what you're saying there Greg?
Seed sown in October should be through in a couple of weeks.
And fertilising should take place through out the winter depending on ground and weather conditions, not just once in October.
Thats providing your not in Iceland for example.
Now I really am confused.I've tabled on the pitchcare site the subject of both fertlisers and grass seed a few times before and the feedback has been that last winter was cold and seed put down late October may not germinate and there is no point putting fertiliser down in winter as the grass cannot take up any nutrients produced.
Greg
Ian,
I'm a scientist by training. What was accepted as gospel 46 years ago is now frequently seen as misinformed. I can't compete with your 46 years, but I do have over 30 years experience of horticulture and turf maintenance - that's quite a bit too isn't it?
On this occasion your advice was only partial. You did not indicate application rate, only concentration. You did not indicate in your first post that you were only recommending a single application - my reply clearly stated that "if repeated this method will only increase your pH". As an experienced turf professional I'm sure you understand the importance of describing both application rate and interval between treatments.
The ciderman rolls
My Dear Jon,
I'm a Greenkeeper by training, and by continuos practice" and personal development" still am! And yes Jon, your thirty years is quiet a bit too. I also agree that much gospel of 46 years is now seen frequently as misinformed fact? but then again, much has been restored to it's rightful credibility and has become very vogue and practiced with prudence by many modern turf practitioner's. As time evolves many more will follow? and maybe then" we can restore the full integrity of our craft (the craft and not it's people) as I do feel the modern practitioner is a craftsman of passionate persuasion.Jon, I very much understand the relevance and pertinence of measured application? (but as my prescription did not advocate chemical warfare I would consider my description of application to suffice? The between treatment bit will "not" be necessary? as a single application "does" get the job done. With much Regard,Ian
29 Apr 2009 by zoid
Hi again Greg,
Rye grass (I'm assuming you used rye?) is very easy to grow, even in lower (October) temperatures. To keep it alive though, you need to give it plenty of feed.
The golf guys would go ballistic at the notion of feeding their greens after August as this would cause disease. Rye is different. It becomes weak and diseased if you don't feed it.
I'm not saying you should clear the snow to put some feed down, but if you see red thread then a little (half rate in winter?) nitrogen feed won't go amiss on a pure rye stand.
Hi Ian,
Why is treatment with baking soda (NaHCO3) any less "chemical warfare" than treatment with iron sulphate (FeSO4)?
And no, I completely and utterly disagree with you that it is not necessary for you to describe an application RATE. The successful use of any chemical for selective control of one life form in the presence of another life form (in this case moss in the presence of grass) is a question of relative toxicity and effective dose. Dose is NOT measured by concentration alone.
From your initial description Greg could have applied 500g of baking soda acroos his whole square, or applied it all to less than 1 square meter - a difference of dose rate of about 1000. Are you telling me he would get exactly the same result in both cases?
The ciderman rolls
Good afternoon Jon. I note that you have taken leave to make presumption that I would categorise Fe as chemical warfare? Never Presume Jon, Never Presume. The Soda ash mined from the ore, Trona! is like iron,simply a natural mineral. No Jon, my reference to chemical warfare is much more heinous than mined minerals? much more! As for the area covered by the 15 lt well, many factors would determin this? (but) I am sure if Greg does deside to try this highly effective form of moss eradication then he will intuitively discover the parameter's of this inclusion by himself. Me! I would cover around one hundred metres square. If you fancy a wee blether anytime then please give me a ring as a meeting of minds will always dignify opportunity. Regards,Ian
Can't help feeling that i'm going to regret ever getting involved, and before I continue - I have an enormous amount of respect for all groundsmen, not necessarily more for those with a lengthier experience, but certainly a progressively bigger ear! BUT as a farmer, groundsman, and MEng Engineer ( Scientist if you like - Either way, not shy of logic or maths ), it sends me into an apoplectic rage that ANYTHING that might be suggested, recommended or otherwise, as an application of any sort should not warrant a dose/application rate.....Some of the most toxic substances known to man are 'Natural'...Take the Nicotines or the Pyrethroids..... Jon, i'm whole-heartedly with you on this. Ian, if you want to talk about assumptions, you're assuming that Greg has really quite a large modicum of relativity....Would you suggest that something like Copper Sulphate ( Being Mined & Natural ), doesn't need an application rate attributed to it? Or perhaps Arsenic? Seriously, can you not see the implications? If it becomes commonplace to say 'Oh well, it's pretty benign stuff, try it a couple of times & you'll figure out how much to use', then the stuff that people buy from garden centres, which people already attribute as 'It must be pretty harmless otherwise they wouldn't sell it to me', would ALL end up in the river/poisoning their pets, exceeding the EU water concentration of....,killing the etc etc etc. We all must maintain a very grave respect for all of the products we use, whether it might be benign, natural or otherwise. If I fill the sprayer - Even with 'only Manganese & water', I wear my PPE, have the relevant spill kits, bunds, risk assessments, DOSE RATE, water volume, relevant nozzles, pressure, documentation, qualifications etc etc etc.......It'd be just the same as if I was using anthrax.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.......Why do you think Dichlorophen has gone? ( How apt!! ) and can we really do without Carbendazim?
Now sleep.
Oh, and one final thing.....I ALWAYS read the label, and i'm having really trouble in finding an Amenity' approved Baking Soda product. Oh well, i'll chuck it on anyway - i'm sure it works.......Shame I won't be out of prison time to enjoy it's efficacy - Killing grass, accidentally, as a result of treating a fence with wood preservative ( If the treatment falls on the grass ), is illegal, and totally punishable respectively ( Off label approval? ).
Ta ta.
Good morning Tim. A first class post and I do appreciate all the advice of it's contents. I also appreciate your professional stand on legislation(but) Tim there are many things,products used on our soils that may not be Amenity approved and don't necessarily fall within the bands of illegal substances? and I will always turn to a wee squeeze of a lemon on a small incidence of Fuzz before considering an approved Fungicide (how many lemons on a green?) I simply don't know? how many patches? how big the green? I could fill a page with alternative remedy and much would not have been selected for approval! but non selection does not purport to illegal application(in many cases) Tim we could all bash away with this reasonable and justified response! or we could divert our Knowledge to prop up and help Greg's request for help. Now I must get ready for my day's toil. Kindest Regards, Ian Mac
Ian, an article on these alternative remedy's would be an interesting read I think. The problem some people will have is that 'us youngsters' need dose rates. We simply don't have the experience or knowledge of the 'old ways' to apply alternatives confidently.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Good evening Ian, I hope you had a most productive & enjoyable day. I'm relieved to report that mine was slightly better than yesterday...What can I say....I sincerely admire your pursuit of alternative control methods, of which, i am sure, many are very effective. I hope I didn't cause offence with my previous post, but I do feel it unutterably important that both the truth about both 'Man-made' & 'Natural' controls, and the means by which they are applied, are understood, and to the greater extent, adhered to...If not, then it's almost a certainty that 'natural' alternatives ( And not necessarily particularly nice ones ) will be our only future...Until they're banned via misuse too.
My perception on the legality of any application to an area such as for amenity use, is that any product applied, for the intention of pest ( Any living or previously living organism ) control, MUST have the relevant approval....Technically. I would be happy to hear of another take on this?
And, regarding your comment on the digression from Greg's request for help.....You're quite right! Personally, learning as I am, I have recently noticed not moss, but slimey moulds that blacken with Ferrous Sulphate. Hand rubbed, brushed with the Sisis or otherwise, they only seem to affect the aesthetics rather that the 'play' of the square. But i'd still be very interested in hearing the results of using Baking Soda....Think i'll try it on my lawn first though.
Best regards,
Tim
Hi Tim
Thank you for your courteous and eloquent reply. My understanding on the application of product to amenity would be categorised to the control of substances hazardous to health? and I don't know about you! but my Granny used to put Baking Soda into her Victoria Sponge so I'm assuming that I could mitigate it's use? Tim, away from the moss and directed at your slime mould. In the seventies the whole Industry was troubled with slime mould, although not effecting the playability of the individual usage! it did present Health and Safety problems in regard to slippery surfaces. I was to experiment with everything until I finally made realisation that Hydrated Lime in suspension form was to be the catalyst for it's demise. I have just checked out my old records and my recording of it's use was based on ten pounds in fifteen gallon's of water as a lime milk over 350 square yards! (well it was written in the seventies) And of course" applied with proper protection. Maybe worth a shot? Kindest Regards,Ian
Thanks Ian, very kind of you to look it up for me! I'll be sure to give it a go just as soon as I get a chance...Unless I get lucky & it powders in the hot, dry weather that's apparently supposed to arrive this summer! Many thanks again, Ian, I think i'll be able to get my head around the amounts....At least it's Pounds & Gallons - My father used to quote 'Hundred weight per Hectare' & I ordered some wood the other day - 2" x 4", 6m lengths!!
Best regards,
Tim
Good morning Tim, It's good our exchange was to develop to a cordial conclusion. Self mediating is a wonderful thing and add's much weight to Dave's Editorial on the essence of unity (Associations) With much Regard Tim, Ian.
Greg, have you came to conclusion in regard to your moss problem? (Although, I would suspect the warmer soils are promoting it's own Botanical change) Ian.
Ian et al,
Thanks for all your ideas. I visited our ground last week with the rep from Rigby Taylor and the first thing we noticed was that after a few hours of rain the previous day the pitch was saturated.This is something we didn't experience at all last season, in fact we played a few more games than other local sides after similar rainfall.
Three years ago we spiked the square with very deep tines, a hired machine, but for the last two years have been using a Sisis Auto Turfman which we bought second hand.Tines are okay but not as long.
My first thought then is that our drainage has deteriorated over the last two years contributing to the problem.
Along with this I'm sure we didn't kill the moss off properly last year,used too little seed,too much top soil and not enough fertiliser all adding to the problem.
I will try the baking soda but I think I need to focus on the above to try to stop the moss coming back.Things may be changing but the black areas are still they and don't look very good.
Whatever happens next year I won't be spraying the square with iron mix just before the season starts.
Thanks again to everyone for your ideas.
Greg
Your choice Greg, but I will be using iron.
Iron is widely recognised as effective against moss and has the added benefit of a degree of fungal control and also turf hardening.
Keep on top of moss throughout winter.
The ciderman rolls
Frustrating as it is Greg, cricket squares of any quality are not designed to drain. That is why we have covers/sheets to keep them dry.
I will also still use some iron when feeding my squares, as doing so means i never get a moss problem in the first place.
4 May 2009 by juls
This may warrant a new thread but!
Bath as you mentioned Iron I am interested to learn approx how much you apply per year, and if you do anything to counter any rise in the ph.
Hi Greg,
Maybe it is the rate in which you apply the Iron that needs re-evaluation? On average, I would apply Iron sulphate on a monthly basis from November through to March inclusive. The application rate I use is 10kg or 12kg per ha. This is sufficient to check the moss, without blackening the sward and as Jon stated is a good general turf hardener.
Juls, I think iron applications are generally applied on a need basis and this would vary based on a dry or wet winter, since moss is likely to be more active during periods of high humidity. I don't think iron at sensible rates would have any effect on pH. My irrigation water is 8pH so a little surface acidification wouldn't go a miss.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Sorry I probably didn't explain properly.I will definately continue to use iron at the end of season,during winter but latest early March.Hopefully I can then lightly scarify and overseed and get the square into shape for the season.
Leaving it till late April as I did gives you no chance to rectify the situation .Your then faced with a square that looks pretty horrible with black spots everywhere or putting up with green moss that whilst not good isn't anywhere near as visible.I would choose the latter.That's what I meant.
Greg
juls,
Most of my fertiliser applications have an iron content included, nearly always 4%.
Over the year it will equate, by coincidence, to 10/12 Kg per H, same as Ken.
Iron will only reduce ph, and same as Ken again, the tap water is very alkaline, so useing iron helps all round. Ph tested two weeks ago, mid sixes i am told.
Hi Greg, it's good that you continue to use the element, Iron. Like the above ostensible practitioner''s I would advocate the use of Iron for much purpose" and to include moss control, (eradication) There are many reasons' for the avoidable inclusion of moss to the sward! and we could talk of drainage, shade, humidity with it's associated dampness! we could venture a whole plethora of reason? (but I firmly believe nutrition, or indeed, the lack of it to be the limiting factor for this plant's non welcome appearance? If we can keep" the integrity of our swards wholesome incorporating all cultural aspect, then we can keep"the dreaded plant at bay. Look to soil test's, look to correcting any evidence of deficiency? promote optimal growth by promoting sound nutritional values! On overview? Look more towards it's exclusion rather than to it's "destruction" So whither you advocate the feeding of the grass plant? or whither you create a strong micro heard allowing them to feed the grass plant ? this will be your salvation to the control of your Moss.
Good luck on this Greg. Ian Mac
Back to Top - Go to Next Unread Message
This Message is closed, you may not post a reply at this time
