HHHHHHmmmmmm
I may cut grass, but i'm not green !!
How do you know this?:
Kick-off renamed Tee-off?
Second Half now referred to as the Back Nine??
Corner flags replaced by 'pin and cup'???
Linesmen henceforth called 'Caddies'????
GOGGA
would be interesting to see a link, or is it just a rumor????
Well it differs greatly from what i was informed, but could be true who knows
I think Mr. gottaclue is just seeking to provoke discussion.
Interesting idea, though. How would a Golf Greenkeeper deal with the perceived problems of the Wembley pitch?
Conversely, how would a Groundsman deal with a Golf Course?
There are all sorts of permutations, aren't there?
From the posh end of the room!!
Maybe the boss at Wembley plays golf and his course is in good nick?
As a previous course manager I would personally feel ill equipped experience wise to take on this particular hot potato, but there are many who would relish the challange I'm sure.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
Its true the greenkeeper at the nearby wembley course has been asked to oversee the current installation of the new pitch until an appoitment is made. BBC were covering the story this morning. It is also doubling up as a pitch and put with a floodlit driving range at night.
i know i would love to work on a football pitch and training grounds , smaller area to put all my efforts into and no bunkers!
L.K.B
9 May 2009 by Stuart Stenhouse
I gotta be honest with you guys at the end of the day the FA do not have to employ someone who knows about football just someone who knows how to grow grass in that situation and has a backbone made out of steal, crack that one and everything else falls into place. Of course the FA will have to give him a free hand to do what he wants.
Regards
Stuart
No such thing as a 'free hand' if you are PAYE.
GOGGA
To make assumption that a Greenkeeper could take over the management of a football stadium is at least, "Absurd" sure! we could handle the agronomy aspect (maybe) but the Methodology is bespoke and would represent a complete new bank of skills' Forty five years of looking after grass has not diluted my admiration for the presentation that I witness to "pitches" time and time again, on the theatre of television, then we have the practices that create the Playability, the skills to germinate botanical composition when it's so cold! that to the "Greenkeeper" it simply would never be a consideration. We "are" all one! simply divided by bespoke skill in relation to our particular venue's. We "are" all one in relation to the values we bring to the Economy and recreation we afford our Country. We "are" all one in the Pride and the unreserved commitment we all display by attitude to out Charges. ( We "are"all One) So, let's "never" forget it? Ian Mac
There appears to be sufficient interest gauging the hits on this thread started by aintgottaclue(the original apparently?)
but what about the discussion? You Sir, you have probably just finished work for the day and left a course in superb condition, could you run Wembley? and you Sir, you are probably getting your pitch ready with a short window of recovery to restore it's integrity, could you run the Old Course? We are all as one! but are our skills transferable?
Whether a greenkeeper could manage the wembley surface surely depends on how it is constructed.
If (as someone said) it was basically a usga surface then I'd have thought that it might well be very handy to have a greenkeeper on the staff. I would have thought that you need someone with experience of a stadium environment AND experience of managing that type of surface. If the skills don't exist in one person (or you can't/won't afford that person) then you need to employ two specialists and stadium one and a surface one - if that makes sense.
The very basics of managing any sports surface (assuming it's not f'in plastic) is pretty much the same it's only when you start looking beyond the basics that things really differ. I'm sure there will be the odd person capable of moving between sports at the highest level but they'll be one in a billion.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
12 May 2009 by Mike
To me, turfcare is turfcare. Yes, some of us look after sand based golf greens, others look after clay based cricket squares, and then you have the guys who have to manage all sort of surfaces in an enclosed environment like a football stadium, but is there really that much of a difference?
I believe that this is where education plays such a critical role. If we have the fundamental knowledge of soil science, plant biology and a passing interest in most sports, you have half a chance at being able to adapt your skills from say, looking after a golf course to managing a football pitch, combine this knowledge with a decent amount of experience and you could well fit into the role without to many problems. Another aspect to look at is the skills and experince of the remaining staff. If there is a good deputy in place, a combination of his experience of that particular environment, combined with the new ideas and skills of a new head man should be able to overcome most problems.
If you have no formal education in sportsturf and you have spent your working life on one particular type of surface, I would imagine it would be a lot more difficult to adapt to a new environment.
Hey! mind you, if you have an agronomist telling what to do, how hard can it be? 
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
12 May 2009 by Stuart Stenhouse
I have to agree with Mike A, it may be a good combination of two guys would be the answer who knows. Interestingly from my point of view it is not the growing of grass but understanding the fundamental principles of Professional football pitches. I have worked on golf courses for 27+ yrs but over the past 4yrs at my current place of employment I have had to prepare a football pitch as well as golf course. The pitch is by no way to premiership standard but we do get teams staying and training. I have had the chance to talk to a few of the training staff and just listening to what is expected of a pitch these days is just as mind boggling as what golf pros expect of a golf course. It seems that all sports have taken massive strides in past 10-15yrs and because so much money is at stake then the expectations have risen. However I have applied the same principles of turfgrass management. I have personally found it a great buzz to watch some training sessions and see how these guys train and of course I want to produce as best a playing surface for them as I can much the same as I want to produce the best playing surfaces for our golfers. Not always easy though!!
Steve it only becomes difficult when you do as the agronomist tells you but YOU still get the blame. Unfortunately this happens and is in my opinion an absolute injustice. The agronomists at Wembley should be dealt with in the same way Steve was (unfairly) treated
Regards
Stuart
How about Pitchcare setting up workshops for Groundspeople to learn Golf Management and Greenkeepers Groundsmanship. Bits taken from each set of skills would make us better at what we do on our own charges. And with the added interest i would think they would be well attended? All making for true professional turf managers with the transferable skills added to our experience.
mad4mud
Well! at least a start? Small in number Big on quality. The few post's to date have been very encouraging and clearly withour Prejudice! This can only further to fact that Turf Practitioner's are Turf Practitioner's and it would be reasonable to conclude that there is no division within the Turf Industry. Whither our skills will become transferable will only become apparent as the Industry evolves? Whither or not a Super Association can be! workable and achievable will depend on a driven and purposed Leadership, again,will only become apparent as the Industry evolves.Advancement was "Never" an accident. What do "YOU" think?
12 May 2009 by Mike Last edited 12 May 2009
What do "I" think?
I think that one association is a long, long way off, and as the dynamics of our sports evolve, and the search for the perfect surface for a particular sport increases, so will the chasm that lies between greenkeeping and groundsmanship.
If we look back 100 years, we find that we didn't have "USGA" spec greens, and we certainly didn't have "USGA" spec football pitches! The surfaces for each sport had some sort of resemblance to the next. As time has gone by, what was once considered a 'good soil' for a football pitch, golf green etc is now considered unsuitable for a given sport. The demands that are now placed on the surfaces dictate that specific rootzones, specific grass seeds etc need to be considered for each different application.
To add to the above points, the rigid stance of our two biggest organisations that represent us in the UK - the IOG and Bigga is making the middle ground of one organisation all the more unlikely.
How many years away are we from a time when there isn't a Foundation degree in sportsturf - will that course have to follow the industry in dividing and offering two seperate courses; a foundation degree in groundsmanship, and one in greenkeeping? To highlight my point, I was recently in conversation with one of my NVQ tutors. We were speaking in general about NVQ level 2, and how they can adapt the content of the course depending on what your individual circumstances are ie greenkeeping or groundsmanship - to me, that is one step short of running two seperate courses.
I find it very unfortunate. I was introduced to sportsturf at my local golf club, where I spent two very happy years. I have moved on since, and have now been a groundsman for over six years, yet I still find that I rely heavily on the skills and knowledge that I picked up as a greenkeeper.
Until the IOG and Bigga sort out their differences, I can see 'the industry' becoming two seperate industries.
Mike,
I feel really sad if the "system" is pushing to two separate camps.
The grass plant doesn't know if it's on a football pitch, a cricket square or a golf green. What it knows is light, moisture, humidity, openess of the soil and availabilty of nutrients. It also experiences how hard it is grazed (usually by a machine) and how much bruising it gets (be it foot traffic or heavy machinery) as well as how many harmful organisms are attacking it. I'm sure I've missed something...
Until agronomists/greenkeepers/groundsmen/mower pushers stop thinking of which industry they "belong" to and start to think in terms of the grass plant and the required properties of the soil, I think they will miss out on the most important aspect of what they do.
The ciderman rolls
12 May 2009 by Mike Last edited 12 May 2009
Whole heartedly agree Jon - 100%
Personally, I don't differentiate at all. I'm sitting here chuckling away to myself, looking back at when I first started out as a greenkeeper, and how my old headgreenkeeper taught me so much. The position that I find myself in now is not that dissimilair to that of my old head greenkeeper, in so much as I now have a trainee, and I find myself teaching him things that I learnt on a golfcourse, yet here he is working as a groundsman.
I defy anyone to read the above and tell me that greenkeeping and groundsmanship are two seperate jobs.
Yet again another two really good responses. Jon, your message comes with transparency and is simplicity in it's self! Of course our priorities lie to the Plants we all tender and to lessen this would dilute this most important aspect. Should we not also be concerned with what Industry we may belong? for it's in this aspect that our progression will prevail! Progression of our needs will only become transparent with the backing of an united and structured Association who may lobby, and fully broker our Education" and terms and conditions'?
And Mike, Like you I would concur to fact that we are indeed! a single Industry. You also state that unless the two major players sort out their differences we will remain seperated by the lack of agreement? So, should we as the Practitioner's not lead the way allowing the Leader's to follow us?
13 May 2009 by Mike Last edited 13 May 2009
All sounds well and good Ian, but putting it into practice could be difficult.
We have mentioned two of the major players already, but there is a third - Pitchcare. For as long as I have been posting on this site, I have never seen any member differentiate between the two factions. I have taken advice from Greenkeepers on this site, perhaps most notably from Ken Barber, and that input his benefitted me in my role as a Groundsman hugely. Likewise, I have offered advice to Greenkeepers in the past, and they have went on to apply my advice succesfully, or atleast I hope so anyway. My point being, has Pitchcare bridged the gap already? I don't think that we are quite there yet, but by looking at the membership figures, they suggest that Pitchcare is fast becoming the major player in the turfcare industry - and that is something that both the IOG and Bigga cannot offer until they unite, and if the recent trend of one organisation trying to 'poach' the others members continues, I think that we will find that members of both organisations will look for another entity - one that represents both Groundsmen and Greenkeepers.
Well Mike! your closing statement has just purposed the finality of the (SOLUTION?)
Back to post lead............... Can someone who is basically used to one sport maintain the surface on another.....
Now the contraversial bit (and please this is a fact of life and not intended to be a slur) I IMHO think that is more a case of is could someone who MANAGES a turf surface transfer their ability to another then the answer is resoundly yes, no problem...... if you have a good team and assistant who are able/willing to back you then no problem, if you are just a (please no intended put down but a large percentage of all sports camps are) grass cutter then no way, alright there is a whole raft of problems likely to be encountered that will only be resolved by experience of the given surface (differing timings, microclimates, response required hence the assistant needing to be good) but if you are in the upper percentage then why not.............. its only grass after all lol
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
A good response Barry, also a very interesting response? Yes,whilst the Practitioner may well understand and broker the physiological aspect's of varied venue? is it not the raft of problems you talk of that may very well cause the flaw. Every sport, as you, in your line of business are only too aware! has different values! values in playability which are considered mandatory to each particular sport. Just maybe" it's the values that could represent the transition that we may all have? or not have? the ability to meet. What I do know! if I were to try and manage a pitch tomorrow I would certainly be out of my depth (apart from the botanical composition) As I have stated Barry, interestingly put. Have a good day Sir. Ian.
Hi Ian, you can tell I am a contractor from that post eh lol....... but I have worked for the good, bad and ugly in all sports... and grumpys too..... as long as its not one of the second category, if someone manages sportsturf then the transition is easily possible, probably not painless but thats where a good team comes in. Dont get me wrong, experience is all but what are we talking about here, what height to cut, when to feed, what with, how much, water amounts, aeration and what type, what not to do just before a match, or competition, or the weekend. Not to talk down what you/we all do but its actually that simple once you understand the microclimate and the needs of the sport isnt it?
You speak of values of a given sport but all that is is a brief, a spec, the important bit is steering nature to meet these requirements......
Its like not all Greenkeepers or Groundsman can look after a newly constructed surface, many go through hell and surfaces can suffer but that is more down to a mindset and ability to adapt away from what you did before...then steer it back over time as a sward establishes.....
If we are talking about a gravel raft, sand based medium pitch other than the fact it will be ryes you maintain how is this a million miles away from a USGA green......
The difficult switch would be to go from sand/soils and tight swards to a lump of clay you bash to a pulp and slash the plant off or vice versa lol....
Mindset, team and brief...........
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Again, hi Barry. Your statement of transition appears absolute if the Article on the home page could be considered a bench mark (Martin Mansfield/ Swindon County Ground) It also determines that with a promotion of new skills' "we are all as one) Again, if we as Turf Practitioners take the lead! the Leaders will follow? Barry! it's been good to debate, thank you. Ian.
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