Message Board: Natural Turf: [CLOSED] hydrophobic soil problem ( dry patch )
27th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
Well i seem to have a problem with dry patch and its severe , it does not smell so i think it is not fungal .
This is a local green to me who have asked me to do some work on it for them , it has a good 30 mm thatch layer plus , compaction is very high also .
So far the green has been spiked to a depth of 50 mm about 14 days ago and again this thursday at 75 mm deep. i am on my 3rd treatment of wetter every 7 days , and also hand spiking and hand treating of severe patches and still it will not get wet .
on traveling home i have thought about welding a tine to a pole with an inline wetter gun to inject the profile with wetting agent . but what i have done so far should have at least started it to get wet
So any tips or thoughts greatly appreciated
Has 2 mow
27th Jun 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi H2M,
It seems you are on the right road and doing all the right things. Although, I beg to differ on the "it does not smell so i think it is not fungal" since it is believed by many that it is a fungal type coating that surrounds each individual soil particle, thus making it hydrophobic.
There are wetting forks on the market.... these generally work on the principle that the tines of the fork are hollow and a hose attaches to the handle and a trigger is pulled to inject water via the points of the fork. Wetting agent tablets can also be attached to the hose, thus allowing a wetter to be injected at the same time.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
28th Jun 2009 by Aladdin
Serendipity!!
Mr. mow, I had a problem of hydrophobic soil last season so used RT's Breaker Curative and Breaker Advance in a programmed application.
What I also did, but not for the Dry Patch, was to apply RT's Activate-R biostimulant.
The claim in the brochure is that it "rearranges the soil platelets". It seemed to prove an effective catalyst.
I cannot prove that this is so but it is my belief. I'm not a chemist or a scientist.
I tend to use RT products for the simple reason that they're just down the road from us. However, it worked for me.
Hope this is of some use
From the posh end of the room!!
28th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
Thanks Alladin
I have some r in stock , so will try it out . and hope it works for me and them .
Ken
I was hopeing you were going to say there are two types of dry patch lol
Many thanks both of you Has2mow
Now what i have come up with is a hand made probe for injecting the wetter .
Useing a piece of pipe an old sprinkler riser and a valve and an old tine
So do you think it should fire down only or as i have made it ?
28th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
Close up of jets , side exits are at 50 mm deep
28th Jun 2009 by Aladdin
Dunno about that. I'm no expert in these matters but is that not a little OTT?
I suppose it depends on what else you've got, if anything.
I applied my stuff using a Kombi fitted with boom.
Going back to the wetting agent and RT's brochure. I dunno what you're using (presumably something that's worked for you in the past) but, again, the claim in the brochure is that some wetting agents rely on gravity and, therefore, follow the path of least resistance meaning that not all of the affected area is treated.
Hope this is of some use/help.
From the posh end of the room!!
28th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
A little ott pos but
28th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
And another view of the other end
29th Jun 2009 by Aladdin
Ah!! I see what you mean.
That is something of a challenge for you. My "problem" wasn't that bad.
Good Luck with it.
Let us know how you get on.
From the posh end of the room!!
29th Jun 2009 by Ken Barber Last edited 29th Jun 2009
Hi H2M,
Judging by them pics..... I'd say that is a little more than a case of your average hydrophobic condition.
I think your tool may be a little aggressive and may blast the soil out of adjacent holes. You could try changing the tine and making the holes a little smaller. But I think this method would be very time consuming!
I would attack this problem from two angles. First I would quad tine the green with pencil tines...... use hollow tines to get through the thatch layer, plus you will remove some thatch and allow air into the problem.
I would then apply wetting agent granuals and try to work then into the holes. Back this up with a wetting agent applied through your spayer then turn on the water.
You might consider using one of the thatch eater applications to get that 30mm thatch down to an acceptable level.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
29th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
Hi Ken
As with the probe i think if i can set the water pressure about right should not do to much damage as i am hopeing the thatch layer will hold it all together a bit like a coir door mat , a two pronged approach from top and bottom . as for time the members said they will help as much as they can , there a nice bunch . and they are keen to improve the green
Now as for your suggestion , i think this is a good one and will run it by them on thursday . Now to quad tine the green may be a little difficult as it would be like trying to spike freshly laid turf , nothings holding it down . you could take one corner and roll it up like a fag ( and before Alladin jumps in yes its full of grass lol )
And as the thatch eater you are probably thinking about, we have just applied on friday but club funds are a little on the tight side . i have given them a fixed price to do certain things but i wont mind if we break even on the cost of materials for the time being . Got to give a little back now and again, and it gives you a great big boost when you have been there . things can only get better
Many thanks for your advice again Has2mow
29th Jun 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi H2M,
It sounds like you have a handle on the situation. The only thing I would seriously advise, on in regard with the thatch eater, you say you have already applied, is that you make sure you keep the surface is open and stays that way.... these bugs only work if they have plenty of oxygen.
With regard to the lack of root and carpet roll syndrome....... If you use a machine that has a comb like attachment that the tines penetrate in between, there should not be a lift problem of the turf....... I probably described that badly, but hope you get the gist of what I am saying. Machines like the John Deere aero core have this system.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
29th Jun 2009 by Aladdin
Turf Retainers, Ken. I believe that's the official name for 'em.
"Full of grass"!!!! I dunno!!! 
From the posh end of the room!!
29th Jun 2009 by Ken Barber
Cheers Aladdin.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
29th Jun 2009 by ebony
hi has 2 mow,
your pics appear to show a lot of damage-maybe scorch due to a granular fert applied or a lack of irrigation-just guessing but wish you all the best as im not sure how i would get grass to grow back during the season, as in my experience bowlers want to be on it from 10 in morning and want as little irrigation as poss to keep it fast-not good for trying to get seed to germinate!
30th Jun 2009 by has 2 mow
Hi ebony
Speed is not a real problem due to grass cover , as for germinating seed its worth a shot .As i said earlier i have just applied symbio thatch eater and have a few of there other products to apply , so i will take some more photos on thursday . It would have given some of the products a chance to start working
Thanks for the interest has2mow
30th Jun 2009 by Ken Barber
H2M,
Just to reiterate..... I have used the Symbio thatch eater in the past.
Year 1 the results were very poor, because I did not aerate.
Year 2 the results were amazing, because I aerated.
These bugs work well when supplied with oxygen and if there is 30mm of thatch it is more likely to be anaerobic...... so get aerating and be amazed!
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
1st Jul 2009 by Aladdin
Further to what Mr. Barber said above:
From the posh end of the room!!
2nd Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Well heres an update , the green is starting to recover ,well see for yourself
Ken
To your point on dry patch being fungal , the dry patch areas are now moist down to 4 inches so recovery is on the way , so the thatcheater in my opinion is doing more than i expected , would you think that a boost in energy from this type of source of ( fungi bacteria soil life if thats the correct term ) partly due to the success , because there has been a vast change since applying it
Aladin
Cheers for the photo feel another project coming on and the injector worked a treat
2nd Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Well heres an update , the green is starting to recover ,well see for yourself
Ken
To your point on dry patch being fungal , the dry patch areas are now moist down to 4 inches so recovery is on the way , so the thatcheater in my opinion is doing more than i expected , would you think that a boost in energy from this type of source of ( fungi bacteria soil life if thats the correct term ) partly due to the success , because there has been a vast change since applying it
Aladin
Cheers for the photo feel another project coming on and the injector worked a treat
2nd Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
And the other end .
2nd Jul 2009 by Aladdin
That's a helluva turnaround in a short space of time. How did you treat it Mr. mow? And what with?
From the posh end of the room!!
3rd Jul 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi H2M,
It is difficult to say without knowing the application timing of the thatch eater, or the maintenance work implemented before and after application or whether you have had plenty of that much needed rain and free atmospheric nitrogen from the same.
However, If the bugs is working as well as you think they might be, then there will be a release of nutrients from the thatch breakdown. You may find the leaf gets a little soft from excessive nigrogen release, so it may pay you to apply a low application of Fe to harden it. It may also be worth planning an application of molasses and seaweed once the nutrient release has peaked.... to feed them there bugs you have produced.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
4th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Ken
Rain not seen any for a while now ,forgot what it looks like . feed the bugs they have plenty of thatch to munch on but if an application of seaweed and molasses produces better results then consider it done , as for spikeing it will be like a sieve
Aladdin
As a week ago i was struggling to get the rootzone moist hence the thread ,i spiked on the thursday and applied the thatch eater on the friday with symbio liquid oxygen and 2 ltrs of wetter same as yours the club watered all the green by the water tractor and followed up by watering the next day (green closed for 48 hrs ), i arrived and cut the green at midday for them . now by thursday the green looked even better as by the photos , we took some samples across the green and the rootzone was moist . the original photos i have shown were taken around the first week of june which is when i had a bit of a interview and got told to get started , but still a good turnarond, i am chuffed and so are the club . my aim is to get full cover by the end of the month , i have 2 products yet to apply 1 for disease scaring and dry patch ( phytogro ) and 1 called fungi booster
My next job is to do some overseeding with prechitted seed what i learnt from the cricket posters and some light top dressing on one end
I have learnt so much from this site in the past year , cheers all has2mow
4th Jul 2009 by Aladdin
Well Done, Mr. mow, you have every right to be chuffed. I certainly would be.
When I first joined Pitchcare I knew absolutely nothing. I avidly read virtually every thread there was. Much of it went over my head but, over time, things became clear and what I've learnt from and through this site is remarkable. Although I think I annoyed one or two with some of the questions I asked in my early days!!!
From the posh end of the room!!
4th Jul 2009 by Ken Barber
H2M,
It sounds like you have it sussed my friend.... well done mate!
I am familiar with both phytogro and fungi booster. And both will be greatly assisted by your aeration programs. A suggestion..... I would use less of the molasses and more of the seaweed extract..... say 30-70. You could also use humic acid rather than seaweed, whatever takes your fancy.
Again, well done on the quick turn around.
Aladdin, never think you could ask a silly question or too many questions..... an inquisitive mind will learn far more than one that remains dormant or half asleep.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
8th Jul 2009 by Aladdin
Mr. Barber,
It was never my intention or desire to irritate or annoy anyone. It was, however, my intention to learn. This I have done and continue to do so. It was unfortunate that in doing this that I did happen to annoy and irritate certain members but, I suppose, ultimately the end justifies the means.
Mr mow,
I'd be interested to know. Did you apply Activate-R? It would appear not but, if you did, did it have any effect as far as you're able to tell?
From the posh end of the room!!
8th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Aladdin
Some posts do rustle some feathers but it should be put down to learning ,and not always take things to heart , everybody has different opinions on turfcare but from this we will learn.
No i have not used your suggestion so far ,but i will certainly give it a try thats for sure , i am back at the green tomorrow afternoon so it will be interesting to see what it looks like, maybe i should post some up to date photos ( so watch tomorrow )
I am like yourself that i read all the topics and threads what ever the sport to gain further knowledge in turfcare
has2mow
9th Jul 2009 by Ken Barber
Mr Aladdin,
I did not accuse you of irritating or annoying anyone! What I suggested was that it was good to ask questions and confur with fellow turf managers.
I am happy if you are happy!
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
9th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Well an update on the green , all is looking well we have top dressed the edges of the green to restore the levels to the timber edges and some of the overseeding we have done is holding so far .As for pre chitting seed someone did say that they put the seed in a bucket of water and others use top dressing and seed any guidance to the time soaked or wetted ?to application .
9th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
And the other end
9th Jul 2009 by Ken Barber
Looking Good H2M.
Good timing with the weather......Well Done!
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
9th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
As for the weather just lucky i guess ,about time .
Anyway the materials turned up yesterday for a brew , just waiting for me little brew tank to arrive and we are away , and then we will have all the gear and no idea
so fungi input here we go .
9th Jul 2009 by Ken Barber
Hey H2M,
I didn't know you were into poetry?
Happy brewing.
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
10th Jul 2009 by Aladdin
Mr. Barber,
You misunderstand. I wasn't accusing you of accusing me of anything!! Rather, it was a continuation from my previous post i.e.
"Although I think I annoyed one or two with some of the questions I asked in my early days!!!" .............
.........."It was never my intention or desire to irritate or annoy anyone."
My apologies for not being clear.
Mr mow,
That bowls club must love you!!! Belting job!!
Dunno if the application of the biostimulant is necessary now. Especially since it is designed more for the autumn/winter period. Then again, since you apparently have some I suppose you could apply it when this period comes round.
From the posh end of the room!!
10th Jul 2009 by has 2 mow
Aladdin
I get many greens to renovate , in all conditions on hand over it is what we do ,and enjoy now the biostimulant will be used and tested rest assured , it is in sugesstions like these that can make the process quicker and cheaper for the club involved , like the one above
Ken
poetry no , just trying to rescue me fescue lol
Now you advised the use of molasses and seaweed as a tonic for the bugs ,now i did try this the following day on 1 of the greens that i had applied the thatcheater a few weeks earlier which was starting to look a bit tired , and today looked amazing green healthy lots of growth , next time i shall apply a little less in stimulants lesson learnt, it looked like i had been out feeding with high npk , must make sure i clear my camera as the memory was full , as i finished of the memory today on this . ooops
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