23 Jul 2009 by olaf
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Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
So which one is which ?
The one on the right has an obvious break at the boundary between two differing soils. As the break is at around 60mm would this be the depth that the spiker is getting to - I'd have thought that (assuming the tines were decent) the spiker would get through this to around 75mm.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
23 Jul 2009 by olaf
Jon, yes it is the one on the right, the exact depth of maximum penetration of the tines. some of the cores showed roots down old holes to that depth 55mm. The pics don't do it justice as the change in soil (imported to indigenous) occurs 5-7mm lower in the profile. There are other problems within the profile but I found it interesting that the only ones with such a glaring break were from the square that had received regular spiking with a drum type spiker.
It's long been assumed that drum spikers cause root breaks but little solid evidence either way. the fact that the cores are from the same site but from different squares and with different management practices is as close as I've ever got to proving that they do.
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
I must admit, I was one of the ones that simply assumed that the talk about drum spikers and root breaks was primarily coming from (or starting with) the manufacturers of the vertical action machines.
I was always of the belief that any spiking was better than none at all. This picture pretty much show that this isn't the case.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Olaf,
Which square plays better?
If the square which has been spiked has also been top dressed for years (an assumption I know) why hasn't the the break moved up as the surface has got further away from the natural? A Spiker only hits <5% of the surface area, so it could take 20 years or more to spike down over 100% of the surface. In 20 years I would expect the surface level to rise by about 10mm- so any break would be smeared over that 10mm, not concentrated in <2mm.
In addition the tines wear and then get replaced - so the depth naturally varies depending on the condition of the tines. And the depth of penetration is also a function of how soft the ground is.
I have no better explanation for your photos, but I'm very sceptical when we try to explain such a localised feature on use of one particular type of machine
The ciderman rolls
If there is a layer of incompatibility within the profile then it wouldn't take 20 years to inflict serious damage. If the spikes didn't penetrate through the layer then the rolling action of the spike within the surface would cause the ground to lift slightly. If there is lift that will put strain on any weakness and the weakness could easily separate.
Imagine that the top bit holds water better (or the stuff below remains hard) and the lifting will be even more exaggerated. I don't think it's hard to think of scenarios how the damage can be caused.
If as Olaf says the only difference between the two surfaces wrt management practices is the use of the spiker then that points to the spiker causing the problem - whether it is due to use in the wrong conditions or not might never be known.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
24 Jul 2009 by Zippy
I think there are too many variables to consider before stating that drum spikers cause root breaks.
The Pattison spiker is quite wide (36" and has 6 spikes per row ?) and I think it usually only has 3"/75mm tines fitted. Compare this against the Sisis Autoturfman which only covers 24" and has 3 spikes per row but has 4"/100mm tines fitted. Because of the different set up, these machines will have a different pulling force on the turf and I would guess the Sisis would probably cause less movement given the narrower width.
What I do know is that in 2002, our square was aerated for the first time ever using a purchased second hand Sisis Autoturfman. For the first winter, it pulled chunks out of the square in places regularly and you could visibly see the square being pulled up slightly in places. In the following winter, this occurred only once or twice (aeration took place every fortnight from mid October to the end of November).
After the first two seasons of aeration, any visible pulling of the surface stopped, and the Autoturfman makes very nice clean holes without any visible movement or disturbance even in Summer when the square is wet (last week for example), so I have to conclude the drum spiker has had a very positive effect on our square and has also helped reduce buried thatch and promote harder wearing turf, as recovery rates of used wickets has also improved.
It would be interesting to see a report similar to the Cranford rolling report in relation to aeration though.
Think they are already working on that project but may take a couple of years.
I believe the trial is taking place as Ascott says.
the Pattisson spike roller is banned on first class cricket grounds ?
due to lifting.
One groundsman suggested to me never to spike cricket pitches.
Purchase another roller he suggested.
i think he ran 3 or 4.
chris
The hard frosts we had in years gone did more lifting than any Pattisson.
What are you suggesting Chris?
The ciderman rolls
yeah,The idea to solid tine spike a cricket pitch does not make any sence to me.
My reasons are that the material used for cricket pitches is primarily clay !!!!. ( in small amounts ), that is the majority is silt and sand.
What is know is that clay will have the smallest particle size , next being silt followed by sand, the 3 major components of a soil. we all know that !!
So by introducing a spike into the soil will do nothing other than create a hole, in so doing the solid tine will in effect push the soil out so compacting the outer walls of the spike hole.
This hole , provided the soil contains sufficient clay will not close, ( not good for cricket pitches ), it will also create weak points from hole to hole. a crack.
The best time to achieve the best results for airation is when the soil is dry,....verti drain and other soil shattering equipment, will crack and allow air to pass through the root system.
To spike a pitch in the Autumn renovation is the ideal time and that is where i start an argument with myself !!!!
You will get good root growth down a hole, because there is no compaction in the hole that has been created and that will be as far as that root goes.
So i don,t spike.
why is it always raining in Manchester,
chris
I know where you're coming from Chris, but you've got to get some air into the profile somehow. It's rare that I see enough frost to put any heave into the surface (at least it is here), so the only way I see to get air in is to spike.
I don't like the idea of vertidraining or using any other soil shattering equipment - I can't see how their use would result in anything other than a destabailsed surface.
I bet there aren't many club grounds playing on anything more than 4" of clay, so the odds are that after spiking the root does have somewhere to go. If that wasn't the case then we'd rarely if ever see roots below 4".
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
JL,
Summer cracking of the square allows for great aeration and nataural at that.
Destabalising the surface, as you put JL, allows for great root penetration through the profile. It will all settle down again during the winter.
Bath, that is true. But, we've all seen pictures of the future problems caused by use of things like a shockwave on a cricket square.
If we could be certain that the surface would actually settle down during the winter then I think we'd all be vertidraining and/or shattering the profile in the Autumn.
Might be an interesting experiment actually.
I've got access to a vertidrain, might be an education to try applying some heave to one of my end tracks and see what happens.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
The use of a verti drain with 12mm tines ( 8" depth) set with minimal heave has caused no problems on our squares, in fact we have had more lifting with our aercore, i have found the smoother action of the verti drain is less aggressive than the " punchy" action of our aercore, and with the greater control over spacings and forward speed is much more flexible.
We only verti drain the squares once - just before renovation, then we use our aercore for other spiking, but by being able to spike through the 4" barrier gives a much better , all round spiking programme.
personally, i would not " not " spike a square, grass is a living plant and it needs air ( along with other benefits aeration brings) to function
Remember, top class grounds have the funds to re lay every x number of years, do smaller clubs??
There's not that many top class grounds that don't spike, yet they still relay.
Are they relaying old tracks - ie one's with numerous other problems - or are they relaying 'new' tracks - ie one's that have been spiked. Questions, Questions, Questions.
Spiking is an interesting thing. All groundsmen have their own thoughts/beliefs. I personally think that if you get frost heave then you may not need to spike at all, and following that there might be a good case for introducing heave if you don't actually get frosts. But on the other hand we spend quite a bit of money and time trying to get levels right during renovations - how can they be anything like if we were then to introduce heave.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
the difference being though Jon, with what machine do they aerate and to what depth?
For all we know First Class grounds may just aerate to 4" as they know that that particular pitch needs only to "last" 5 yrs so they can be less aggressive with their aeration programme to minimise disruption to the surface and sub surface - or they may not spike at all for fear of causing surface disruption.
It is well documented that consistent spiking at the same depth will produce a pan, which can in turn cause other related problems, so groundsman need to be able to get through this layer, wether with Verti drain, hand fork or deep drilling, how this is achieved is like everything else, down to what machinery is available to the organsiation and what budget is available.
I think if pre season rolling is initiated in the right conditions then any heave that may have occured during aeration will settle down during the pre season rolling.
29 Jul 2009 by taffy
Neil i think your spot on, we do exactly as you say using the verti-drain once or possibly twice with minimal heave then i spike using a tractor mounted 4ft sisis multi-tiner and so far have experience no lifting and good root development. As a few others have stated grass needs air to survive. On the squares I have verti-drained the wickets have performed better this year than in previous years and they dry out more quickly and evenly due to the more developed root systems.
Taffy
29 Jul 2009 by mario Last edited 29 Jul 2009
Typically I would solid tine at the end of October or whenever the square is soft enough.
The last three Autumns have been so wet up here that I haven't been able to aerate to depth relying solely on the 6mm slits that the scarifier has provided in early September.
Frost heave...yes, but no other disruption to the profile over the Winter months.
Have I noticed a difference? No!
Square is about 14 inches deep with live roots to about 8 inches or so on Boughton County with R9.
Pace, bounce and carry have been unaffected in this time.
Will I be solid tining this year? Only if conditions allow but won't be too upset if they don't.
I know no boundaries.
mario. I think it's a bit different up north. It'd be a weird winter for you if the ground didn't freeze.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
I am with you all the way on this one Niel. Vertidrain with no heave. The deep drill is used on many squares, some first class.
I know of at least one first class ground that vertidrains, test match venue at that.
To my knowledge, i could so easily be corrected, most first class grounds have only been relaying individual wickets for less than twenty years. It is a relatively modern thing i believe, so i doubt that many have dug up a wicket twice, yet !!
Most still have some old ones to relay, if it is part of there plan.
Frost heave is a little different JL. The ground swells when attacked by frost, just like your unprotected pipes. Pre season rolling is then required to firm the profile. You would not want to heave your cricket square by mechanical means and still expect a flat surface the following year.
Spiking allows air to the roots and bugs.
Guys
I only have a patterson and which I aquired last year second hand. 4 inch tines. The sqaure had not been spiked in the winter before I took it over for at least 2/3 years. I was advised by an experienced groundsman that if I used it with care, it would be ok. He has used his for 10 years. I had an ECb pitch insection and I had root breaks at about 80 mm and subsequently the root growth was not good.But very little thatch fortunately.
I spiked 3 times from about November. I did have problems with heaving at times but thankfully apart frpm one area, it was on the ends and not really on the tracks. Also I think due to my over keenness, I spiked when the ground was too ground after heavy frosts, snow etc which probably caused some of the heaving.
I do not have a vertical spiker and hiring one is not only expensive but what if the conditions are not right when you hire it?
Anyway, core samples taken recently have shown that the break is much better and the root growth is deeper. Also the proof as we say is that the bounce is better than for many a year. This is due I think partially to TLC and a consistent rolling regime , having taken notice of the Cranfield report, but I think the spiking has helped.
In saying this, I find it a real "bottle" job when using the patterson and judging when to use it, is not easy.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Its your shout Barry, but to me it is a very easy judgement. Just dont use it at all.
Bath
Yep my shout but I still thinks as long as i dont have too many hiccups, its better than no spiking at all.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
3 Aug 2009 by olaf
Better than no spiking at all?
convince me.
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
Vertical spiking with your fork may be better than nothing Barry. Drum spiking, i reckon you are better off not using it if you have any layering or breaks, better it was left well alone.
It will definately find a weakness if one exists, it may even create a weakness if the tines cannot penetrate vertically through the root zone.
Olaf
Are any 2 squares alike? I dont know, I do know that I have more bounce than anyone can remember in the last 25 years. it may be luck or tlc, I dont know. But as I said, recent samples show longer root growth and improved break.
Bath
Forking? if the break was at 80mms, getting a fork through that depth surely is not easy, let alone ignoring the hard work and time it would take!
Listen guys, I am a newcomer and very gratefull for any advice. I suppose it all comes down to if it works and at the end of the day, how the tracks play and the ball bounces eh?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Your last sentence is quite right Barry, however, if you have a break at 80mm, that will be found at some stage by a drum spiker, if the tines are long enough and will with its very action, make the break worse. A vertical action type machine will punch right through that same break, helping the roots to grow through and help to hold it all together.
Barry, all my surfaces - cricket, bowls & tennis - have played better than ever this year, that is due to the fact that they got hard in April because of the weather, nothing that I did. Looking after grounds is hard work but it's a long winter, think about getting out there with the fork. I know money wont allow you to buy one of Bath's wonderful machines, so take time and do a few tracks when conditions allow. Do as AA does and cut garden forks down to 9", better than any machine except perhaps a deep drill or vertidrain.
If you're going to use forks then take the time to grind them to a sharp point - it only takes 10 minutes or so and makes life so so much easier.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Ascott
Yes early spring weather was a help but I think using a consistent rolling proceedure has helped my tracks, before they were rolled incosistently and not enough and often at the wrong time cos the contractor had a lot of grounds and rolled wehn they turned up regardless of the weather.
John/Ascott
ill do as you say when the winter is here. How long does it take to doa track with a fork? and how deep would you go?
Ill get one sharpened and have a go
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Go in about 9" and how long depends on how close you space the holes. Should be able to do a track in a day. I will be out with my fork early October and brush new loam into the holes made.
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