4 Sep 2009 by Mal
I always feel saddened when I hear of people willing to make a profit out of causing misery and yet again another report of a grounds shed being aleviated of the tools of our trade. A couple of things spring to mind; I never like to openly advertise what I have in my shed and have wondered recently though nice to see what others in the profession use, some articles (Not exclusive to PC mind) where machinery is listed seems to be courting a visit.
Secondly I have often wondered if it would be possible for the PC team to create a page listing stolen goods with serial numbers that could be refered to by pc members before they make a purchase of second hand goods
Anyone from pc, what do you think?
Geography is everywhere
Whilst it probably isn't a great idea to advertise what you have in the shed, the guys taking a lot of this stuff know what they are doing. See a sports ground, find the groundsmans shed and more than likely you'll find something worth selling if you're in the business is nicking that sort of stuff. There's nothing we can do about it really - or at least nothing legal.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
5 Sep 2009 by Mal
Well there is somthing in that, but what do you think about the idea of a register where you can look up stolen goods?
Geography is everywhere
Mal, I think it is a good idea.
Has anything else like this been tried in other industries?
Perhaps a highly reputable national machinery dealer would like to sponsor it?
Chalky.
I think it's pretty good idea.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Having been a victim many times, and always been left feeling stupid and helpless, this sounds like a good idea. Count me in. In fact, how can I help ?
Coupled with pressure on the manufacturers to:
1) provide clear and unique identification on equipment
2) improve security with better locks, keycodes, anchor points so you can chain things up
Maybe to the point where we could be insurable ?
I am not interested in political wrangling, but getting people in the industry to work together on common problems is the kind of thing Pitchcare should be doing.
5 Sep 2009 by Mal
I'm sure that when Dave gets back into his office on Monday he may have a stance on the idea with some helpful suggestions. Basically all it needs is a page with a running list of manufacturer, Model, serial numbers including chasis and engine if applicable and where is was stolen from. I'm sure if you were to advise anyone selling second hand goods that you will be refering to the stolen goods register it would make it more difficult to shift the stuff on. assuming that it is not the big chunky gear likely to go abroad. perhapes a code of practice in using the register?
Geography is everywhere
Hi all
I think a lot can be covered with the manufacturers , in a good indentification to all machines ,something that is more than just a sticker that can not be removed with ease .
Thoughts are that all machines are engraved with a non removeable serial number on many parts , so when these machines go in for a service at some time , they can get checked against a nation wide data base . to see who is the real owner a bit like a car .
I put stickers under all covers that are not easy checked with a contact point , so maybe at some point if they get stolen , they may just be returned to the rightful owner .
As for insurance we can always get cover , but at what price .
5 Sep 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 5 Sep 2009
Tried this a good few years ago with stolenplant.com having lost another digger and feeling extremely frustrated and feeling like I was getting no support from the police.
The plan was of having a website with free access for anyone who had something nicked to list any item of plant stolen with all relevant identifying info with limited details available for public view so that it could be a good resource for anyone buying plant to check its not stolen or the police to be able to easily identify it from a picture as all they seem to know is what a JCB or a tractor looks like anything else is wooosh over their heads. Then if we helped recover a machine the idea was to get a percentage finders fee to help fund the site.
It went really well to start with lots of similarly frustrated owners of plant and machinery who were very cheesed off at losing kit then when we had couple hundred items listed from all over country we tried to get at insurers, the larger machinery dealers and police in several counties to get support but we couldnt even get to talk to anyone face to face..... they just were not interested, especially the insurers, well the know nothings who wouldnt direct us as to who to talk to.... The police are not interested in plant theft at all anyway, it has no political incentive to fight it, its businesses and the reply normally in a tone that says 'what are you making a fuss about' is ''well you are insured anyway'' as if that makes it ok....... The larger dealerships and manufacturers are also not particularly interested in any support of anything like this as the estimated £50m per year of kit that is stolen needs replacing fom guess who....
So I had to bin it as I couldnt keep funding the site and hosting costs and didnt have any money to push the idea to people who could make a difference like the commercial sections of insurance companies which was a pity.
Anyway the idea is brilliant and it actually works, it has the potential to snowball into a massive resource with the right support to help get kit back to people who might find out they arent as covered by their insurance as they thought, might stop someone buying a hot machine, it could save someone thousands and be the difference between clubs or businessses being able to survive or trade when premiums start rocketing at no fault of their own.
It can be used by dealerships to check serial numbers of machines needing parts, police on roadside or at docks to ID what a machine is, where an identification plate is located and if it is listed as hot or not.....
Same as on assistance I have a passion for reducing the hurt done by the people doing this.......
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Barry,
What you say is really interesting. The reason I suggested it being backed by a high profile dealer is this:
Where as the manufacturers perhaps are not interested in why some one is buying their kit - either to replace something stolen or for any other more normal reason such as wear and tear - it is just demand all the same to them.
But reputable dealers also lose out to thieving and the trade in dodgy gear, because people are buying from crooks and not them. Those out there buying stolen goods, either knowingly/other wise, would be reduced/wouldn't want to if every one knew they were stolen. Instead they would go down to their dealer, perhaps even the dealer who sponsors the scheme and buy from them - thereby generating business for the right people, not lining the pockets of criminals.
As a minimum people could just start a thread right here on this meassage board and so long as Pitchcare were happy to let in run it would be a start.
(By the way I do like the what's in the shed bit. It helps me get an idea of how other people work and also I like to put it under the noses of the bosses once in a while. Unless things are being stolen to order you don't need to be the CIA to know that a sports club will have a shed with grass cutting equipment inside)
When Dave's back, if it's not something that he wants to host then I could host the site (foc to get it running). I won't have time to program the site until after renovations though.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
JL, we need to talk then, there are pros and cons, what works for people to upload relevant info, what you can show prospective buyers etc etc, best search categories....
Chalky, one of the best ways would be for dealers to use it as a reference point for when parts are being asked for, especially for kit tha has been 'exported' to wherever via a container, just click in the serial number, we even had it that it could be searcheable from a mobile phone, you could be beside a bit of kit and do a search right there......
Things may be different now but back a little there was just no interest in supporting something like this from anywhere, old bill, insurers, big plant companies or dealers but since then it seems that as more people get hit and premiums rocket or insurers decline to pay out it may be more relevant now...
Keep me informed..
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
6 Sep 2009 by Mal
Barry, sounds like you have a very good template of ideas.
Geography is everywhere
I'm not surprised this has been tried before, a shame the manufacturers and insurers aren't more helpful. Can we try again ?
It would be an ideal extra strand to the Pitchcare site to have a section dedicated to lost and strolen property.
Pictures and stories would be useful, not least we know these things go in cycles so it would be useful to know where the gangs are targetting. A universal register of stolen equipment seems a distant ideal, but why not do a test run. Anything we can do to fight back against the rude-word people who make our lives a misery is worth supporting.
I would be content if as a result I was approached by a company which specialises in security marking, asset registers, tracking systems, advice and goods for extra protection, special insurance etc.
7 Sep 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 7 Sep 2009
Charles, this is the route I went down in the end, it was a case of spend a fortune on security systems or risk becoming uninsurable, the premiums rocketed anyway, I ended up spending more a year on insurance than companies 3 times the size and turnover and everything was nicked from 'secure' compounds, no keys, chained and locked down.
Dont want to push anyone in particular yet as it may be a good way of helping fund a 'Register' and I would assume that many of the security providers would be interested in advertising. There are many good providers of different levels of security by ID, electronic and physical means and I know that the one I went for has worked in the past, having seen kit nicked from alongside ours that was untouched on one site.
There are however existing facilities available and it may be that discussion with one of these is more appropriate:
TER, The National Plant and Equipment Register, the 'official' facility. You are able for a fee to register items of equipment (of value one assumes) as being in your ownership. Some suppliers do this as part of the purchase new, do not kno the secondhand scenario, never tried it.
They offer a free stolen listing facility for kit over £1,500 with very expensive machines circulated to the old bill and they actively are used to locate or id plant.
There is a phone in service to check items and call back within 15mins - 2hrs.
Pity this isnt advertised more really....
There is also a small register, registerstolenplant, I assume done by someonewhos now similar to my situation, set up out of frustration at losing their livelyhood and lack of support, which has a few machines but nothing significant.
For a register to work it must have several things in place, to be recognisedand useable by the police is the first, then insurers, it then has credibility, It must have a national/international coverage, a lot of kit is moved from one end of the country to the other or via ferries to Ireland, Eastern Europe, Africa, etc, it should be free to use and log, you are knocked already and forking out more cash hurts, it should be easy to access to check if something is legitimate or not or at least to flag up a phone-in check facility. It should have a picture of the machine or an identical one in place for viewing, the police do not know the difference between a Hayter and a Bomag and from experience everything is a JCB in their minds, something different would be overlooked.
I could go on, I have a passion nay obsession with this the costs involved in losses ultimately contributed in part to my own business being lost.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
7 Sep 2009 by Dave
Hi guys,
I've been reading the thread with interest, we have periodically notified people of thefts and loss of machinery, but I'm not sure that it has helped in any equipment recovery to date.
However I have spoken to our web monkey and he's happy to develop a new section so that members can upload, location, picture and information on stolen kit. It may be a month or so away as he's been on holiday and has a mountain of work in front of him.
Please feel free to offer any suggestions that you'd want to be included in this section.
Cheers,
Dave
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