Hi everyone, due to being snowed under with work recently Ive not been able to hollow core my green I look after. Is it too late/cold now do you think for recovery?
Cheers
Joe
Hi Joe,
It depends on how aggressive you intend in doing this operation? Whether you are targeting thatch or trying to improve your root-zone? And what part of the country you are located? If you were going with 1/4" or 5/16" you should still get recovery fairly quickly. If you doubt your rate of recovery, why not simplify things by going with solid tines? I personally never use hollow tines.... too much hassle for my liking and I maintain my thatch levels fine.
I verti-drained my greens this week with 5/16"x 10" solid tines and came immediately behind with 5/16" X 4" solid tines fitted to a Toro Pro-core 648, followed by a treble pass with my sorral rollers. They will putt as normal by Thursday and as you can imagine, I have minimal thatch.
Great weather until mid-week next week..... me thinks!!!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi Ken
Thatch isnt a big issue at the moment, so I was intending to hollow core and topdress just as part of my yearly program for this time of year to improve the rootzone. The only use the green has had all year is by me and the mower. Im located in the northwest near Lancaster and the weather forecast up here isnt too great so I might have to wait till next week even. The tines I have are 1/2" hollow and 3/8" solid used with a Coremaster 12 behind a tractor.
Thanks for your help
Joe
Hi Joe,
Why go to the hassle of hollow coring and the clearing up behind if you don't have a thatch problem? Whether you use 1/2" or 3/8" inch you will get little dressing down the holes unless the ground conditions are dry and your dressing is kiln dried. If it was me, I would go a couple of passes with the 3/8" solid tines and concentrate on getting some much needed oxygen into that root-zone..... you ever hear of too much aeration? NO. You ever hear of too little aeration? YES all the time!
You can apply top-dressing as well, following each pass with the aerator if you have a mind..... especially if we get a dry spell or if your course is quite later in the day when the turf has dried out.
Good luck.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi Ken
OK so in that case if Ive understood correctly I'll try and topdress tomorrow and then aerate with the solid tines leaving the holes open. I guess the recovery time then is just the time to recover from the topdressing. Please forgive my ignorance, Im not a pro!
Thanks for the advice
Joe
Hi Joe
If I were you I would do it the other way round. spike first and then top-dress. This way you close the holes up quicker, but still leave them porous.
Regards
Greg
Hi Greg
Is the advantage of closing the holes up quicker resuming normal play quicker? It's just that this isn't a factor for me as the green does not have any play yet. Or is this better from a cultural point?
Cheers
Joe
Hi Joe,
No Greg is right..... normal practice is to aerate first. No more than a tonne a green is not excessive.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi joe
If you want to be really clever, you can top dress first (half rate), then spike and follow this with another half rate top-dressing. This way you will drive the first top dressing down in to the tine holes and then fill them up with your second one. So that you know how much dressing to apply. If you went with a 12mm tine, allow at least 20 tonn to apply. For a bigger one like a 20mm tine, allow at least 40 tonn. The aim should be to fill the tine holes as best you can. Good weather is a priority though. The amount of dressing is based on a hectare.
Hope this helps.
Greg
16 Oct 2009 by Mike
Sorry to hijck this thread, but I just have a quick question for Ken.
Ken - can I ask what tine spacing you were using on your vertidrain and procore, with the aforementioned tines please?
Mike
Come on Greg....
20mm ...... they 're not holes! They're crater's!
We are talking about a new build here Greg.... it sounds like Joe is still going through his grow-in. So why would you want to be so aggressive with the tines and so heavy with the dressing.
Good management is based on managing the basics and letting mother nature do the rest...... Something that seems to be forgotten today!
(1) Fertiliser input. Don't produce a grass factory, which produces unnecessary lush growth, resulting in thatch accumulation and susceptible to disease incidence.
(2) Keep a healthy root-zone, that will sustain a healthy population of micro-organisms, including beneficial bacteria, fungi and protozoa. All of which will naturally break down dead or dying plant tissue, which in turn will return nutrients to the plant in a readily available form.
(3) Plenty of aeration, from sarral rolling , slitting, and micro tining etc. Hollow tining is generally required as a result of losing control of the first two mentioned above.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi Mike,
How's it hanging?
You could never be accused of hyjacking a thread.... besides, this is an open forum, with healthy and respected banter enjoyed by all.... I hope Greg, you don't take my words the wrong way, since they were not intended to be anything other than friendly passing of personal views?
As for you question Mike.... Two weeks prior to verti-draining I aerated with the Toro Pro-core once each week at 2" square spacing. On the third week the verti-drain was passed over at 2" square spacing, immediately followed by the pro-core, again at 2" spacing. Over that 3 week period we also double sarral rolled 8 times. (16 passes)
As I have always maintained..... you can't over do aeration..... in any form!
No pesticide of any description has been applied to the green since last November, and these are greens that were sprayed with an average of 8 applications of fungicide per year, just to control fusarium. I am not including the 4 applications of Cabendazim applied each year to control casting worms!
Its good to talk!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
16 Oct 2009 by Mike Last edited 16 Oct 2009
Thanks for the answer Ken, much appreciated.
Everything is good thanks, Ken. Very busy at the moment, but then again, I wouldn't have it any other way! I hope that you are keeping equally as well?
With your programme of heavy aeration, I wonder how your membership feel? This is not to say that your way is incorrect, far from it, I applaud your courage in your convictions. I recall the days when we always received complaints following any aeration at my golf club. Even today, my boss who is a keen (and very, very good) golfer complains about the aeration at the golf club where he plays, and this is coming from a vastly experienced turfcare professional!
I remember back in the day, when I worked at my local golf club. We performed the 'usual' hollowcoring followed by a remarkably heavy dressing of sand - we used to suffer with regular bouts of fuzz. We also suffered with blacklayer and thatch fungus in a few greens. We applied several different fungicides both preventatively and reactively - could it be that we were simply caught up in a vicious circle that was fuelled by incorrect cultural practices?
Compared to how we manage the grounds at my current place of employment, in the seven and a half years that I have been looking after the grounds, we have never applied a fungicide. We aerate regularly, feed very rarely, don't irrigate at all and we only top dress our cricket squares, and even then that's a comparatively light dressing. Aside from one area which i'm working on improving, we have no thatch to speak of, no disease (aside from a little red thread) and generally healthy turf.
I find it interesting looking back now, and this has led me to the conclusion that sometimes, less is more.
Hi Ken
I was just trying to give Joe some idea of how much dressing to applied in relation to the size of his tines. I would agree, a 20mm tine on a new build is too big. Either 8mm or 12mm would be fine.
However, I would disagree that you 'can't over do aeration'. In the winter I believe you can, especially if the soil is at field capacity. I think guys have to realise why they areate. As you rightly say, in the summer you will be creating a good rootzone for the benefical bacteria, fungi, etc. You will also get oxygen in to the rootzone for the roots. But why aerate in the winter? All I see being achieved is compaction of the soil due to the tine entering.
Regards
Greg
Hi Mike,
I think your adage.... more is less sums it up.
My members don't complain because they see year on year improvement. However, I would add, I think I can get away with it because I never use (nearly never anyway) bigger than 5/16" tines. I never hollow tine because it takes longer to complete, plus I don't have a thatch issues. I sarral roll behind each operation and cut behind that. Which, results in minimal disruption of my putting surfaces.
Hi Greg,
Who mentioned winter aeration? Not me! However, nn a true USGA spec green, you can not compact the root-zone..... at any time! My concern would be recovery of aeration carried out during the non-growing season. All of my main aeration i.e. solid tining and verti-draining is implemented between the months on May and October. Sarral rolling and slitting is carried throughout the year, although I would hold off the slitting during periods when the greens could dry out quickly with long, hot sunny days.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi Ken
I think we are getting a bit confused with what each is saying. When you said that you can't over do aeration, I just pointed out that you could in the winter.
No harm done.
Greg
100% usga zone is very scarce. usualy contaminated with fines out of rec.so to much fines does when over airated compact and you are correct Greg, Ken i have seen this so i do know what i am talking about.
surely aeration will only compact a surface if it is aerated when too wet??
which goes against all principles of aeration in the first place..........
I aerate through out the winter months when the conditions are appropriate. ie. not waterlogged. We try to slit once a fornight on average all the time conditions allow.
Yes Neil, it will if the ground is too wet. How wet or dry the soil is does not have a date on it so the conditions need to be checked first.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
19 Oct 2009 by gregevans Last edited 19 Oct 2009
Hi Chris
The soil is deemed too wet when it is at field capacity. This can be measured with a water balance sheet which measures the soil moisture between FC and wilting point. My course, west london clay based, can be deemed too wet for 4 or 5 months of the year. Last winter, the last time we aerated was the first week of November and another tine didn't go in to the soil until the last week of March. Five full months without aeration. I definately felt that they held up better because of this. The firmness or infiltration rate of the greens didn't suffer because of a lack of spiking.
I do feel that greenkeepers/groundsman need to think about aeration more. Do they do it because they feel good about themselves having just blasted a load of holes in the greens, or do they actually know what they are trying to achieve??? I brought a soil compaction device this year and just about to purchase an infiltration meter. Already the results from the penetrometer are very interesting. I am also conducting bulk density and organic matter tests. Every site/construction is different, so tools like these are essential to analyse what's going on beneath us.
Regards
Greg
19 Oct 2009 by Ken Barber Last edited 19 Oct 2009
Greg, I believe you are thinking too much about your own situation, dealing with London clay.... and I do not envy you. I think Chris and I were generalising.
Hi Ben, I know where your coming from, but we don't tend to over aerate USGA greens anyway. My analogy of the fact that you can't over aerate is again a generaliation of a very important maintenance program that is often overlooked or pushed aside by turf managers for a number of reasons:
1) pressure from members to keep the surface perfectly smooth, which, ironically will have a negative effect on the longterm playability of the surface i.e. thatch accummulation, compaction etc.
2) you can't really see the benefits of aeration until you have to rectify the problems caused by the lack of it.
I manage a USGA spec course with greens built 35 years ago. The spec is not bad, but I think my problems relates from the changes of top-dressing over the years, some of which I suspect were not as near to the original spec as would be desired. This has been the main cause of a couple of root breaks at 30mm and 50mm. I am starting to see an improvement this year because of all my aeration. Roots are now growing to 100mm. In previous years they have not ventured lower than 50mm.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Lots of good stuff here with fundamental credence in all. Greg, apart from your specific clay "Field Capacity" should be considered the optimum moisture state for most aeration practices! well" apart from vibration and shattering method. Ken, I must disagree entirely when you state that USGA spec greens don't compact? I say, you can compact root -zone? What of the child who builds castles at the beach, what of the Sand Sculptor. Many of their examples if brought inside can last for many years, why? compaction When excessively wet, the fines "will" form a binding agent which can? be amplified by the exudation of the soil fungi this,in turn, will hold the fines to flocculation resulting in compaction. Yes, a good quality root zone will resist compaction (but) it is not absolute! Regards, Ian Mac
Ian.... I think you are being a little pedantic!
Squeeze a fist full of clay soil and it will form a plasticine, depending on its moisture content and the type of clay. It will be almost impossible to return it to its original denity immediately. Do the same to sand, even at field capacity and it can be brushed into its original appearance with one finger, with no effect on its original density.
But who am I to argue?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Ken, (PEDANTRY) peculiar to both of us at times me thinks?
An arguement! (NEVER) to be my intent. Regards, Ian
PLAYING AT DEVILS ADVOCATE AGAIN ME THINKS......
I agree and disagree.... there is only one critical factor, as stated by Chris, .. conditions, reactive knee jerk aeration because of a problem in wet soils invariably leads to more problems than it solves, proactive preventative can still lead to long term scenarios depending on soil type and equipment used.
All aeration is positive...... it is more about understanding the possible side affects of poor timing and what, if anything, can be done to remedy. Do you spike/tine because the grass is drowning/suffocating knowing it may lead to other problems or do you leave it to die back. Yes getting it done before is the way but many situations occur due to budget/equipment/management/lack of knowledge/bad advice where it isnt.
All soils will compact, even sands if enough fines are present to 'lock' up the other particles, although to be fair I expect you (Ken) have had experience of the better end of what is loosely described as USGA.
What can be more of an issue with sand based soils or rootzones is the smearing that can occur with the organic/soil/fines content if moisture levels are too high. Some air is let in the profile but soil structure can actually be reduced.
All aeration processes lead to compaction somewhere... the downward action of forcing an object into soil compresses soil below, regardless of how much heave or action is used. Yes if perfectly timed (about 3 days a year) then vertidrains and drum types can create a heave that will 'tear' beyond the depth but invariably all that happens is a Pan is created below the depth of aeration in the same way that a plough pan is formed, variation of types of aeration and depths will help reduce or remove this, unless you are very fortunate to have perfect soil with the ideal clay, silt or fines content that probably doesnt actually need aerating anyway.
Discuss..........
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
I think for the most part, all of the comments made, are by turf practitioners who clearly understand the complexities of soils and their ability to drain, compact or otherwise. And, it is clear to most that the success rate of all forms of aeration is dependent on timing and ground conditions.
I just hope that this thread has not confused poor old Joe too much?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
19 Oct 2009 by Mike Last edited 19 Oct 2009
Fact is with aeration, or pretty much every single task we undertake for that matter is that there are negatives and positives. The skill of the groundsman/greenkeeper dictates what that balance will be. We all know that solid tining will cause a certain element of sideways and downwards compaction, the severity of which will be dependent on soil type, soil condition, tine size etc - this is where the skill and experience come into the equation. The question is, are we going to paralyze ourselves by giving in to the fear of the negatives, or are we bold enough to rely on our judgement to minimize the negatives and reap the positive rewards of aeration?
I know what I would do.
Mike
19 Oct 2009 by Joe Gornall Last edited 19 Oct 2009
Hey up,
I'd already done it before I saw your post Greg but I'll bear it in mind for next time (probably march) so thanks.
Unfortunately as I suffered a few set backs with the tining machine and with work commitments I only managed to get the aerating done (solid 3\8" to a depth of approx 3.5") on Saturday, and it has been raining since then so Im hoping that I'll be able to topdress on wednesday when it 'should' be dry enough if the forecast is correct. I'm hoping this won't be too late! Grass seems to be growing slowly so we'll see. I suppose it won't be the end of the world if its not topdressed but I'd rather get one done before winter.
Thanks for your advice everyone
Joe
Few points on this. (especially mike,greg,ken as i am in a similar position and have moved from sand-based to loam-based sports in my career!). Thatch is something that has to be managed through sound (preferably cultural control) and maintenance. It's no good saying "i haven't got any". It`s like saying my car hasn't blown up so i have enough oil.
Thatch is far more prevalent on a golf green that is constantly stressed by being cut to 3/4/5mm than on cricket squares which only receive such treatment occasionally.
Sand based aeration? You Know you`ve got it right when the surface rises. Vary machines but you want the pentrating tool to grip to the dry surface on exit and lift it, creating fissures to release co2, allow in oxygen and create a healthy envoronment for root growth. Too wet and it will smear the hole/slit etc.
Many USGA spec golf greens are, i believe slowly being ruined by the application of poor top-dressings. Get an agronomist in. A USGA spec green has been designed to perform in a certain way, with infiltration, percolation and drainage rates designed to aid root developement. It is easy to mess up a course that cost millions to build by 1 poor application of top-dressing. I would recommend David Rhodes although he is commercial (i.e.he wants paying but the last i heard is he is independant so hasnt got his own agenda).
Fescue/Bent greens are far more suscptible to disease (Especially Fusarium, Corticium etc) than Ryegrass cricket squares. Also on cricket, Fusarium is far more likely out of season.
Ken i know what you are saying about field capacity but have to disagree somewhat in my situation. If i could get an 8-tonne machine to shatter 12" into my wickets now, i would. I think it's the same for a lot of people that we don't have machinery up to it.
Finally, as well as location, Sand-based soils will cool faster than loam-based at this time of year. Germination times are also longer for the fescue/bent putting the golf guys about 10 days (my estimate on my location) behind us cricket guys on last chance renovation works. However, as long as you have germination, Root growth into fissures and filled tine holes should continue. If the temperature drops too much, 80-90% should continue in the spring (assuming use of 2009 seed)
Finally, Ian. Is interesting what you said about flocculation of soils and fungi. I have a problem with old fairy rings on my table which is evidently missing on the creases, which i suspect is largely due to past use of calcium carbonate to mark the creases encouraging flocculation in the loam, through the active fungal layer. Unfortunately i cannot put my theory to the test as a) It is now illegal and b) The players would not be impresses with large white squares painted on the square.
Anyhow, that's my rather extensive comment! Is it obvious my renovations finished on Saturday!
Hi all
The point I was trying to make in all this is that guys sometimes aerate without truly understanding what they are trying to achieve. Without knowing what state your soil is in, how can you make a judgement. I do honestly believe that you CAN over do aeration if the conditions are not right. This would be site related. Experience does count, but should be used as a final judgement call based on information gathered as I mentioned before.
Ian, to get the best out of your aeration programme, it is not ideal to have the soil at FC.
Regards
Greg
As a person with 30+ years experience as a Course Manager and 6 years as an independent advisor, I am not sure I would seek the advise of an agronomist about my top-dressing? And I am not saying this because I have all the answers, since I believe I something new to learn every day. Its more about whether an advisor will go to the lengths required to ensure the right dressing is used, or the right root-zone is purchased, as much as I would. And, today this process is harder than it used to be because since we have to add transport costs into the equation. I can remember being approached by a big top-dressing/root-zone supplier during my advisory days, that a percentage would be paid for every tonne sold! We won't go there!
My reason for making such a statement is bore from experience and observation. An example.
My current club at which I have worked these past 4 years, had two holes. About 12 years ago the 9th & 18th were changed to make way for a big hotel extension. An agronomist was brought in and he made the recommendatiion for the root-zone, which was agreed based on the assumption that he new best. It transpires it was not even close to the root-zone of the other 16 holes and is the nearest I have seen to builders sand. Following the completion of the two holes, this supposed expert said that a different top-dressing would need to be purchased for top-dressing. Imagine the hassel of top-dressing 2 greens with one top-dressing and 16 greens with another.
Over the years, I have heard of many poor decisions made by supposed experts in agronomy. Although, it is not my intension to tar them all with the same brush, but I think it should be the resposibilty of the turf manger, groundsman or greenkeeper, that if he seeks advice, to ensure he is advised properly. I know that this is not easy for all those running the helm in their particular sport. Either through lack of knowledge, experience, confidence, interference from committees, politics etc. etc. but I believe if a managers reputation is based on his or her results i.e. quality of turf, then why trust a person from outside to make a decision that could effect your surfaces permanantly!
Andy, I understand that managing sports turf is quite different from golf (I was a groundsman before a greenkeeper). In a lot of cases a groundsman is dealing with soils local to their particular site, although the wealthier football clubs are different. Cricket is probably one of the hardest surfaces to maintain, due to the type of soils required to hold up to play. The soils used in each particular sport require a different management regime and each manager will have their own way of managing their particular patch of turf..... that's what makes this industry so diverse.
To finish this long-winded waffle .... In all my years of experience in managing turf, I have found that aeration is THE most important tool I have. There have been times in my carear when I reduced this operation and regretted it later!
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Gentlemen, may I suggest you all read chapter seven of Jim Arthurs book, Practicle Greenkeeping. The whole chapter is devoted to aeration and makes some very good points.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
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