"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"...Franklin D. Roosevelt
One would have to search the message board history to ascertain the exact date when the topic of Pitchcare and IOG first rose to interest the subscribers of Pitchcare and membership of IOG. My guess is that it would be some 4 or 5 years ago.
For many old hands it is a well worn and almost gut wrenching topic, for others it is new, interesting, exciting, a chance to change how life on the playing field can be made different.
For others it is almost fearful. Why would I use that particular word, one may ask.
The answer is often that if one is seen to support the other by ones peers, such fear of being ostricised in the industry can be the cause of ridicule or financial loss.
I, and I know of many other subscribers, do not have any vested interest in the outcome other than the well being of an industry that served us well.
Being in a position where threats to my job are no longer relevant I would like to try and gain some open, honest opinion, open discussion and suggestion without casting aspersions on any individuals credibility, professionalism nor intelligence.
In short..no I am not having a shot, having a go, stirring the pot for ego or the detriment of any one group or individual.
Simply asking what is the problem ?
As mentioned I have read much and exchanged words with others on this site on the topic, the results of which were progress, although for some it was such a negative exchange that progress came to a halt.
One subscriber recently mentioned mediation. My counter was to ask is there a need for mediation ?
As I am possibly more aware of the problem than some of the newer subscribers it was easy for me to agree that mediation is required..semantics over words such as if and when came to play.
There is no doubt, in my mind, that the outcome of discussion should be for the better future of this industry. In particular those who strive to achieve the impossible playing surface under all conditions.
My goodness, what a mouthful ?
And so to the point.
What is the purpose of IOG ?
What is the purpose of Pitchcare ?
Can both co-exist in perfect harmony ?
And possibly the cause of much thoughtful input.....
What would it require to have both work together for the betterment of the turf industry ?
Yes, there is fear in responding or entering into such a debate openly. And yet as the American comedian Bill Cosby once said "Decide that you want it more than you are afraid of it."
For me, in the context of this topic, that quote means that we want a better turf industry more than we may be afraid of openly putting forth our thoughts and suggestions.
For those who may take on the role of mediation, it is far easier to enter such a role if there are a myriad of thoughts by others rather than go in alone.
One group appears to bang its head against the wall, another shows lack of interest or inclination to enter into ongoing discussion. i.e. stalemate.
Our future turf industry will go on no matter, perhaps it is now time to open the old topic once again so as to give guidance to the industry as to just where the ground troops wish it to go in the future ?
22 Oct 2009 by vid
Peter, at the risk of being patronising if you want to engage us in a discussion you need to put your question a little more clearly - I think you may have lost most people on what precisely you want. I f its a straight Pitchcare v IOG or why isnt Pitchcare more integrated with the IOG. I think you are looking at the subject from the wrong angle, I cant speak for Pitchcare as I dont represent them but the industry (and many others) are crying out for better representation and I know that I will enthusiastically support a forward looking organisation that has a more dynamic effect on all aspects of the industry. I'm sure Pitchcare will do so as well. I dont expect a commercial venture like Pitchcare however to be an organisation as well, I have never seen them as that. I like the fact that they mostly give neutral point of view and take an independant stand point. If they lost that independance by taking up with an organisation like the IOG then I would be less inclined to read their articles.
At a time when peoples interest in unions is at a new low, it is going to take very clear leadership and some new ideas to make any new organisation or association take root in the minds of the workers managers and owners that it takes to bring progress and benefit to all.
Hi Vid, its good you post, the other two and a half hundred who have viewed appear "Reticent" or maybe they are all delighted with all aspects of the current terms and conditions of our Profession? On overview, it is precise that Peter Leroy has initiated an invitation to treat,an invitation to expound to The Good, Bad, and Ugly! aspects of how our Industry influences one and all. Vid, the initiaters of the failed "IGA" failed simply because we didn't have experience of a commercial venture, we failed because we couldn't sell our concept, we failed because we didn't have the vehicle to transport our virtues to our People! "Pitchcare does". One only has to speak DS and the rest of the crew to make realisation that they are more than a commercial venture? It's good to talk, and I only hope that one day, IOG and BIGGA will come to the table with PC and fashion a model that will secure our Industry and all who serve it. Regards to you Vid. Ian Mac
Not wanting to create controversy, but alas feel I am going to. I truly feel that the day we are properly represented as an industry will be the day we represent ourselves. The sooner greenkeepers and groundsmen support the iog, bigga PC the better. We have far too much apathy and negativity at the moment. Far too much backbiting and one up man ship. Every time someone raises his head above the Para pit someone is happy to shot him down.
Look at it this way: BIGGA, IOG, IGA, PC, STRI, R&A all get shot at by those they are trying to help.
Lets stop asking what do they do for us, and start asking, what can I do for the industry.
Can they work in harmony? Of course they can.
Do we need ONE association? Matter of opinion but I feel we have room for all.
My last point (then I will get of my soap box) our associations can only provide if there is a demand for it. If we don’t attend regional seminars, Harrogate, Saltex, if we don’t invite our committee members along then help and representation is very difficult. Get involved and get represented better.
Thanks
I am getting off this rather high soap box before I get shot.
Its good to talk!
24 Oct 2009 by vid Last edited 24 Oct 2009
Ian - I think Peters opening statement was a bit too eloquent and longwinded to attract comment hence the lack of replies hopefully the thread will attract comment as I think opinion is far from tested in this area. When I talk to the grass roots in their groundsmans sheds they too are interested in being properly represented, but they have to feel involved at he same time as not feeling fleeced to run some big design. That alone is one hell of a remit.
So following on from that Paul, I agree with you that the various organisations we already have lack the support to give them clout- but I think thats the problem, if we cannot represent ourselves strongly as an industry and continue to be fragmented as we presently are, then our voice will be too insignificant to be heard. At present there is virtually no dialogue between those that play the game and those that prepare it other than a rather patronising pat on the head or suggestion at how we could do better for them.
PitchCare has gained for itself a significant following but I feel yet again that this influence is mostly within the production of sports facilities side rather than the usage and paying side. With a much smaller market share the same can be said about the associations and organisations. I get the feeling that even at the top end of the sports - football/golf in particular there is a sense of 'job done' once the trinkets at award ceremonies have been doled out.
Look at the Wembly fiasco - Steve is now out of a job - most likely as the scapegoat for unbelievably poor consultancy (if any) and advice. The salary offered at one of the worlds most renown veunues was absolutely insulting and it took men of great passion for the sport to even consider applying. They really dont deserve a decent surface at all. My point however is how many people in football/golf/rugby/horse racing - playing, riding or watching are aware of the skill and experience level required of our top grounds persons and the inadequated remuneration they recieve.
Would representation by the IOG, or BIGGA etc make any difference at this level - I havent noticed it in my lifetime. If the whole industry at all production levels from managers down pulled together there might just be a chance that this complacency in the hierarchy of the professional sports may just be shown up for what it is and perhaps we could regain some respect.
24 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 24 Oct 2009
Hi Paul,
Regarding your post. I think you have to ask the questions WHY people don't join organisations, attend regional and national shows and go to seminars put on by certain associations?
Im going to speak personally here and anyone who knows me will know that I am a young (well im 28) deputy and work at a golf club in France, that besides the point I am currently not a member of any association to do with greenkeeping and am also not involved with the French association AGREF here in France, although I do attend both the National turf show here in France and havent missed a Harrogate show since I started off in this game when I left school at the age of 16.
Looking at it from my own eyes, I choose not to support any association because of many certain things....
These points are as follows:
1. If my club was to pay for me to join an association (which they happily would) what would I gain from it? Yes I would gain more contacts....but is that what I nessesarily need? If I currently need something I will make the contact myself, it works alot better for me in fairness.
2. The shear amount of back bitting/ backstabbing/jealousy that is present in the turf industry carried out by a minority is not something I want to have anything to do with whatsoever. Joining an association may leave me open to this.....I have seen many incidents of this happening and anyone who says it doesn't, really is looking at it through rose tinted glasses IMHO....I'd rather keep myself to myself and get on with what I'm paid and love to do.
3. Helping others (this may seem harsh but I'm going to say it) It seems crazy but I'm really inclined to do this at the moment......dont get me wrong I will share my experiences with anybody who wants to hear them.....BUT...like on a couple of occasions in my career I have been approached by people to help them out a little and had it thrown straight back in my face or been slaughtered behind my back, when I have left my guard down a little.....why should I put myself in this situation?.....I'm not the only person who has noticed this kind of occurrence in our GREAT industry it happens all the time....why put yourself in that situation? like I say sometimes its better keeping yourself to yourself and deal with those closest to you.
4. Regional seminars, seminars at National level, workshops etc.
I rarely go to turf seminars these days provided by the associations, the reason being is the sheer price my club would have to pay. If you look at the prices of some of the workshops at Harrogate for example, they seem extremely steep to me, Im currently carrying out a BSc online and only have to pay £1,300 a year to do this, information comes in thick and fast and I am learning non stop. If I go to a workshop at Harrogate I have to pay in the region of between 100-150 pounds for a day, usually to be hit with a sales pitch at the end of it....it really doesnt do it for me, imagine taking a few of your guys to something like that....it ends up being very costly for just 1 day of education.
5. The location of the turf shows back home. This I think really needs looking at. Gosh, I know Harrogate like the back of my hand now it seems!!! The question I ask is why is it always in Harrogate every single year? If you look at different countries turf shows they are alternated from city to city.....Why dont the organisers of the UK turf shows do this, why not alternate it year on year? It could be held in a numerous venues....imagine a rotation between England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland...or even a rotation in England if thats what they chose to do. It would be better for all attending and those who lived in different regions....because come on...at the end of the day Harrogate is hardly a great place, somewhere I wouldnt want to visit if there wasnt a turf show there!!! (sorry to anyone from Harrogate)
If a rotation was carried out, maybe the organisers could strike a deal with local hotels in that place and bring the price down a bit....surely this would be better for all....why should people be held back from going because they work at somewhere that cant afford to pay hotels at 80 quid a night that get snapped up like hotcakes, it should be affordable and available for EVERYONE in the industry and they should be able to attend!
6. The clicks within our industry.
Every industry has this its normal and I dont think it will change, but I'll give you an example that I came across, that kind of got my back up a little....hence, I am a no longer a member of my national associations website (I live in France by the way so this is not aimed at any UK organisations). Somebody who I know very well offered to give a talk about construction projects to other greenkeepers in the area and this was due to be carried out as part of a regional thing here where I live. It would have been great for other guys to listen to and they could have gained many great ideas and taken from this guys experience of golf course construction.....BUT....because this guy was not a national of the certain country (even though he speaks the lingo perfectly) it was not allowed to go ahead it got a big NO NO......have you ever heard anything so ridiculous??? As he was not in the the click or shall we say le click, others I feel where held back and missed out on a super opportunity. Hence, I am not a member of that association!!! Im sure there are many other stories like this that others know about....it really does seem silly doesnt it?
I think I have pretty much spoke from the heart with that post....but until things start to change for the better I will stay doing what am doing at the moment and not be affiliated to any association. Its a shame but "such is life" like they say. From the people who I do talk to, I know for certain there is many people who think down the same lines as myself at this current moment in time.
I just needed to get that of my chest, whether people will listen I'm not sure?
Regards
DE
Learning is there for every man
I certainly agree with many of the points raised by Eddy21.
I also understand the frustration expressed by Paul. I think this industry isnt really capable of representing its interests independently by any of the current organisations even if they did amalgamate!.
Ideally i believe there needs to be some sort of semi-government partnership to ensure we are always on the table to be discussed at the highest level everytime when changes occur. I think Geoff Webb has made a great start in regards to this.
But the trouble too is that these organisations like IOG, BIGGA an others dont have anyone with real industry experience leading them. At the moment these organisations are glorified event organisers. They are not in touch with the man on the ground. To make this connection and work effectively there needs to be government partnership programmes locally in conjunction with sporting governing bodies
Also the real development in this industry needs to have a defined career/educational pathroute that is respected, not just by us but by those who employ us, government agencies can help us promote this. Too many of us think its just about developing your skills to do tasks in greenkeeping. We must bear in mind the development of our knowledge, skills and attitude collectivily is what real training is all about!
We must see a clear path from further education to higher education. I think our higher educational courses are too broad and need to be narrowed and more focused on particular areas. Currently these courses are poorly respected because they have been poorly thought out as how they can really be effective in improving our industry!
But then again who can these colleges rely on to advise on this? There isnt really any representation on this.
Plus the fact there are many of us in our industry who are happy to slag off these courses because it suits them, simply because they confuse skills development only with a knowledge, skills and attitude development that hasnt been given a real place in our industry as yet.
That is why we need real partnership with government with respected people from our industry who have 'done it' to lead our profession in conjunction with the sporting governing bodies. Thats the ideal world i speak about.
24 Oct 2009 by vid
Eddy thats a great post which certainly backs up what I have found in my travels here in s England. All I would say is that surely your comments are as good a reason as any that an all encompassing organisation is needed that caters for all rather than the few - then there would be a more centralised impetus within the industry. I agree with your 'cliques' point of view - I dont think you will ever rid yourself of these, especially with the British character and attitude, however they will only be heard as a single voice if the industry has a strong voice of its own
24 Oct 2009 by vid
Donals - I would say the same as I said in reply to Eddy - surely your reasoning points to a stronger overall body - only then can you even think of getting government sponsorship of any effective kind. The deriding of couses and initiatives comes from this division within the industry. Greenkeepers would find it hard to prepare a cricket or tennis surface for play just as a tennis or cricket groundsman would find it hard to prepare a green. However most would very quickly adapt, helped enormously by the very courses they may have previously derided.
Strong representation will not always suit everybody and will not always provide the help you may need, but with bigger size comes bigger funds and bigger opportunities and a bigger organisation will also help shape courses and initiatives to better suit the end user. The trouble with lots of smaller organisations is that they often waste resources by duplication, or being unable to use the experience gained in a separate but allied branch of the industry
Hi all,
I really should be studying but this is far more interesting than Photoperiodism, photoreceptors, light spectrums, results and statistics 
Another point I would like to add to my original posting and speaking on behalf of young people around the similar age to myself and younger (sorry if that offends anyone!!)
It seems to me in many associations that our voices are not being heard, if associations are to move forward should our opinions not be listened to a little more, as we our the future of this industry? Our views are views for the future and we have an awfull lot to offer!!!
Maybe I'm wrong with this.....but I feel certainly my age group should have some say on decisions being made within organisations in the turf world....this at this moment in time is not happening. Goodness me I was allowed in greens committee meetings when I gained my first deputy's position at the age of 21, but I know I wouldnt have a cat in hells chance of speaking up for a turf association if I was currently a member!
Saying that, I feel that the young guys out there need to have more of a voice if we are to move forward and not be stuck in a rut like it seems we are at this moment in time.
I would propose that any association that is going to take us forward as an industry, would consider having a young persons "sub committee" as I feel they could take some great information and points of view from these people .....its just a thought I have had over the years, as there is some very bright youngsters out there who have a massive passion for the industry whether it be golf, footy, cricket or any form of turf maintenance......its such a shame for these voices not to be heard as many of these guys absolutely live and breath it!!!
At this moment in time I doubt this will ever happen, unfortunetley!!!
It really would be nice to see some input from the associations leaders on this thread.
All the best
DE
Learning is there for every man
DE, I would consider it mandatory that young practitioners serve in all pertinences to anything that forms or relates to the future of the Industry. We must "all" be the changes in what we want to become. Slow to start! Peter's thread is now being supported by sheer wisdom and articulated philosophies (keep them coming) Paul, you stay right up on top of that soap box! we need you there" David (PC) not an association leader but, as our host, how about your point of view?
24 Oct 2009 by vid Last edited 24 Oct 2009
Perhaps theres another question to ask - why are we so quick to see the negatives, reasons for something not to happen? If we can turn this round in to positives where the people who join feel they are part of the process and decision making, then there is achance that there will be some momentum and a new organisation will form almost of its own accord.
I am certainly not pointing my finger at anyone because the posts so far are very honest and open and therefore of tremendous interest, but in this thread and others we constantly seem to feel the need to qualify a statement with 'it will never happen' type add-ons - why is that? Are we so diverse in our thinking that we won't be able to agree anything? I don't think so, its not my experience of my colleagues and associates that I have met over the last 20 years of business - is it yours? If so bring it out in to the open! Hang the consequence! I personally am fed up with the inertia
24 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 24 Oct 2009
Ok Vid point taken I have ended my 2 posts like that and I'm sure I am not the only one to be a little negative in my posting, but when the passion is there and things are not happening (so far) it can be a little frustrating at times.
I have been honest and open in my postings, notice there has been over 500 views on this topic and only 12 or 13 posts (so far) Come on people its your industry....lets get the ball rolling!!!
My next question would be ......how are we as the people involved going to make it happen? or are we just going to talk about it till we are all blue in the face? Can it happen? (of course it can, like you say!!) So many good points have been raised so far......where do we go from here? What's the next step? Will there be the interest? I have no doubt there will!!!
We just need to speak up, there are so many people who post on this site who work at all levels of the industry and in a wide variety of different sports.....how do you guys feel about the way our industry is represented at this current moment in time? What would you like to see from an organisation representing ourselves as an industry?
Best Regards
Dave
Learning is there for every man
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (actually Tallentyre S.G. and not Voltaire)
In an attempt to not be long winded, boring, pompous and any other word or phrase that comes to mind, I am trying hard to be short. And yet there is so much to say, suggest, add to, comment upon all that has been offered to this thread so far.
I tried to take in all but found my mind wandering, many times in agreement, at times in plain "huh?"
And so..press print, sit with highlighting pen and make an attempt to compress for ease of comprehension.
The cause..wishing to excite the minds of fellow grassgrowers so that we can offer a way forward. In some cases, perhaps go where none have gone before.
In no real order of posts I seized upon various trains of thoughts and came up with the following :-
"...the industry (and many others) are crying out for better representation and I know that I will enthusiastically support a forward looking organisation that has a more dynamic effect on all aspects of the industry. " vid
PL- I think that is the commonly held perception of the way forward.
"I dont expect a commercial venture like Pitchcare however to be an organisation as well, I have never seen them as that." vid
PL- I see PC as the "soapbox" to begin the long march forward. And should DS think it a good commercial future, to be the marketing arm.
"At a time when peoples interest in unions is at a new low, it is going to take very clear leadership and some new ideas to make any new organisation or association take root in the minds of the workers managers and owners that it takes to bring progress and benefit to all." vid
PL- Clear and concise. A "draft" of who would be part of such a group is required ?
"It's good to talk, and I only hope that one day, IOG and BIGGA will come to the table with PC and fashion a model that will secure our Industry and all who serve it" Ian Mac
PL- If there is a need there is a way. There is a need. But why be limited to only these 3 ?
"We have far too much apathy and negativity at the moment. Far too much backbiting and one up man ship. Every time someone raises his head above the Para pit someone is happy to shot him down." Paul Lowe
PL- Die of apathy or die fighting for the cause ? We shall fight them on the beaches..oops. No need to fight as a well planned operation, carefully conceived and executed often works. Hence my asking the initial questions
"My last point (then I will get of my soap box) our associations can only provide if there is a demand for it." Paul Lowe
PL- Might not agree in what you say but heck get up on the box and go for it. Ends justify the means. Is there a demand ? Horatio to Che would not have gained anything had it not been there conviction to say publicly what they believe.
"At present there is virtually no dialogue between those that play the game and those that prepare it other than a rather patronising pat on the head or suggestion at how we could do better for them." vid
PL- We surely have to know what we wish to say before dialogue begins or continues ? Having also suffered the patronising pat I know where that comment is coming from.
"If the whole industry at all production levels from managers down pulled together there might just be a chance that this complacency in the hierarchy of the professional sports may just be shown up for what it is and perhaps we could regain some respect." vid
PL- Grassgrowers, salesmen, venue managers, owners, educators, government, industry support groups, players. All represented on one body ? I like the concept, how could it be achieved ?
"1. If my club was to pay for me to join an association (which they happily would) what would I gain from it?" Eddy21
PL- Often wondered this myself
"2. The shear amount of back bitting/ backstabbing/jealousy that is present in the turf industry carried out by a minority is not something I want to have anything to do with whatsoever." Eddy21
PL- Sticks and stones. Those who do such will also benefit.
"3. Helping others.." Eddy21
PL- Cause and affect. If nobody offers then the mistakes will be compounded and repeated.
"I think I have pretty much spoke from the heart with that post.." Eddy21
PL- A good place to begin any meaningful dialogue. Rather than shoot from the mouth without thought.
"I think this industry isnt really capable of representing its interests independently by any of the current organisations even if they did amalgamate!." donals
PL- A step back ? Maybe not think of those who are current ?
"Ideally i believe there needs to be some sort of semi-government partnership to ensure we are always on the table to be discussed at the highest level everytime when changes occur. " donals
PL- Absolutely ! Somewhere in this thread I read about small groups being unable to cause change. My thinking is then how about getting a big group as one ?
"But the trouble too is that these organisations like IOG, BIGGA an others dont have anyone with real industry experience leading them. " donals
PL- Something like having an accountant in charge of the health dpeartment ?
"Also the real development in this industry needs to have a defined career/educational pathroute that is respected, not just by us but by those who employ us, government agencies can help us promote this.: donals
PL- There are examples of government (education dept.) run and financed turf/horticulture courses. Perhaps not in the U.K. ? Those examples could be cited as part of the draft plan for the turf industry future ?
"Our views are views for the future and we have an awfull lot to offer!!!" Eddy21
PL- Not just by the young. With age comes experience, with youth comes drive, together comes success.
And so, this in my condensed look at the words of wisdom being extolled so far. I am sure there is more to come. I would hope there is more to come.
To paraphrase Ian Mac, if you have something to say, something to offer, something to say that can form part of the future of the turf industry get right up on that soap box !
Dave, you learn quickly! It's good you have presence of mind to re-frame" allowing you to think of the benefits of a better structured entity. The man who cannot change his mind can't change anything? Now! instead of the questions above, you point, and many will follow. Ian Mac
While I was writing yet another thought provoking post arrives in this thread.
What do I feel about the way the turf industry is represented ? Is that globally, by continent or just country ?
Let's not limit thinking to mere country here.
There are groups around the world organised by those who drive lawn mowers who are saying very similar things being mentioned in this thread.
Could whatever comes from open debate/discussion here be used as a globale blueprint is my question for the industry.
Who is Who and who will be part of the turf industry future ?
I make a presumption here in that this thread is being read and considered by predominantly U.K. subscribers. That being so, I will only offer names pertinent to the U.K. at this juncture.
For those outside of the U.K. who are interested, perhaps you could delve into who would be on your countrys list of contacts ?
Ministry for Sport
The departments creed - Our aim is to encourage wider participation in sport, helping to create a more active nation through sport and improve performance.
If I get the name wrong then please, update the information.
Minister for Sport - Gerry Sutcliffe MP (he has 3 sons, surely they play sport?) Member for Bradford South
Secretary of State for Culture, Media & Sport. - Ben Bradshaw MP (before politics a journalist interests include cycling) Member for Exeter
UKSport Mission - UK Sport will work in partnership to lead sport in the UK to world-class success.
Sounds good let's begin at the grassroots then. They seem shy as to whom one should contact with regard to representation on the industry group. Does anyone know ?
Sue Campbell CBE is the board Chair and a former netballer of note.
Nigel Walker UkSports board member (played Rugby for Cardiff and Wales. Works for BBC Wales now there is an outlet for getting the word around ?)
Philip Carling board memebr (likes cricket even has a Blue. Also enjoys a game of golf. Surely he has an interest in the turf ?)
Dominic Walsh board member (nice Irish fellow who enjoys golf, rugby, gaelic football
Then of course there is Sport England. Surely they have an interest in growing nice grass ?
Richard Lewis happens to be chair with interests in Rugby League and tennis
Karren Brady Sport England board member..well gosh, surely someone can have a chat to her now ? Birmingham City Football Club
Jack Rowell board member (likes Rugby especially if you are around Bath)
Lisa O'Keefe Director of Sport Sport England. Likes Rugby ask her about Scottish Rugby. While asking her that ask her what the grounds were like when she lay face down in the mud ?
Caroline Weber, Director of Communications Sport England really knows how to get the word out and about.
So those are a few names to place on the list of potentials.
Note that I haven't even touched the actual sporting bodies...yet. Nor the manufacturers, nor the venue owners committees...yet.
Someone will say ah but...where do the funds come from to set up such an august body ?
Your pocket !
Well maybe not directly.
Sport England has an Innovation Fund...part of its aim is :- "The overall aim of this £5 million investment programme is to find and nurture genuine breakthroughs that will transform the way community sport looks and feels in the future. "
Sounds good, hand over 500,000 first up to this new improved group who wish to take the turf industry into the future. Of course if you decline then the group may have a few well placed MP's / Journalists to remind you of the group.
But!!!!..
Before those dreams can be realised.. as Eddy21 (Dave) said speak up..add your voice to the thought processes of just what is required to further advance the turf industry
Perhaps if each comment wasnt a chapter from War and Peace, you may get more responses!
That's true. Can't say there is overwhelming support for such a project.
24 Oct 2009 by Dave
Not very constructive Lee!
This is possibly the most impressive thread on Pitchcare for a while, so thank you to Peter Leroy.
I would agree that there are many people viewing but not offering their own comments probably because of their fear of the future.
To me the last eight years has been a transition from being a practicing Groundsman to a commercial enterprise. That said the emphasis about starting Pitchcare hasn't veered much from its humble beginnings.
Pitchcare now offers a huge voice for our small Industry, but our intentions have not and are not to be an asociation. There are many people who don't feel the need for an association at all, after all in this day and age of the information highway, why do you need a body to administer rules and regulations for the rank and file?
I, personally believe that despite the internet, there is still the need for a formal line of communciation and that is why an association is required.
However I do believe that in our Industry we are too small to accomodate two, (the trade are finding it increasingly difficult to support two seperate associations) so we need to look clearly at either amalgamating what is already there (IOG and BIGGA) or start a new one.
In the last few months we instigated two seperate surveys, one to the trade and one to the PC members, asking what people wanted in the future with regards trade shows.
To me the questions and the subsequent answers are straight forward and realistic if we, as an Industry, wish to move forward together.
About 4 years ago we voiced publicly what many talked about, a merger of the two current associations. After a year of talks this didn't happen.
So it seems obvious that if the two associations were unable (incapable) of sorting it out then other avenues needed to be explored.
A trade led show, at a venue and time of year that the majority wanted would take the balance of power away from both existing associations and allow the trade to decide where to spend the profits.
Now I can hear much gnashing of gums, but just think about it for a second or two. The profits from a single trade show should be greater than presently provided and then both associations could bid for funding for worthwhile causes.
However once the cash was in the hands of the trade and not the associations, the trade could then play a little hard ball and say to the associations, come on guys get your house in order and become one.
At present the trade have to support two shows, two education policies and sets of magazines as well as extra commitment to regional events from the associations sub groups. If this was all merged into one then there would be far more money in the pot to support the Industry properly.
We will be publishing the results of the show surveys shortly, from these you will see a clear vote in favour of a single show.
Presently the shows are both associations life blood, taken away, it will not ring the death knell for them, but announce the start of a new and vibrant united Industry.
There will be blood spilt, but if people want positive change then we can stem and stop the flow quickly.
These are my thoughts and I know they are the thoughts of many others so please let us know what you think about them.
Cheers,
Dave
It wasnt meant to be constructive, just a remark that would have hopefully led to shorter messages that people may want to read through in their entirity, you just messed that plan up though!
24 Oct 2009 by Dave
It's a complex as well as an emotive subject that probably can't be answered in a few sentences-What's your view Lee?
Personally I have used both the IOG and Pitchcare in the past, and will continue to do so. Where people seem to think that one is a threat to another always confuses me as they are 2 different types of organisations in what they offer, with the only major common service provided being training. I do not have any major interest in the need for one big organisation, as that would reduce competition and choice for members where complacency may set in with a central organisation that has no other organisation in the background to keep it on its toes.
Its a bit early to think about it anyway, we have your lot up here today-cant wait!
25 Oct 2009 by Dave Last edited 25 Oct 2009
I hope that your lot go easy on us, we need the points more! Good luck today, I hope the weather is kinder to you than it was to some yesterday.
A single association covering the needs of everyone within our Industry, if structured correctly, wouldn't need competition to evolve. Certainly over the last few years both IOG and BIGGA have improved through competition, but only because they have been woken up by technology.
The IOG and BIGGA both offer a very similar service to their members, and let's face it, the two memberships are so alike these days that they would benefit each other with shared ideas, pooled resources and a single body representing their combined welfare.
An economics teacher, when I was at school, used to bang on about supply and demand as the mainstay of any economic community. Both the IOG and BIGGA memberships are static if not in decline and running costs are high due to the staff required to run two associations. Surely a streamlining of the two would make for a more efficient and economically viable future for all members.
With one membership association, one show, one education policy there would be far more money available to plough straight back in where it matters and that's member development.
A structured board involving Industry people from all sides would drive itself and progress our futures.
The most important thing is creating a unified education system. At the moment there is a myriad of choices, which is confusing to the end user. Let's have one agreed series of education steps that people can understand will help them further their career.
Bringing in new talent as well as retaining existing talent is the biggest task we face. If education is right and through this an improved salary scale reflecting continued learning then we will attract good people and move forward.
i personally seriously question the need for trade shows.
1; The cost to put on such an event is prohibitive to companies, look at the last few years and the number of companies pulling out.
2; The internet, most companies have websites, where new products can be viewed, launched, reviewed and even purchased if you wanted to (PC own shop)
3; Most dealers will quite happily offer demo's at our own places of work, why would i want to go to SALTEX or Harrogate looking to purchase something, and only look at the machine but cant try it out??
4; Any rep worth their salt will keep his customers in the loop on new developments, new machinery, new products, i know mine do.
5; Trade shows to me seem an excuse for a knees up and for meeting / networking people, nothing wrong in that.
6; Other trade shows / exhibitions demand an entrance fee, (ideal home show, ski and snowboard show) so would Groundsman and Greenkeepers be prepared to pay an entrance fee to Saltex / harrogate to help reduce costs of the show which would possibly get more companies in so offering more choice = more dealers = more visitors = more potential buyers = potentially a bigger and better show.
7; If there was a demo area at saltex where over the 3 days we, as end users could try various machines out ( booked in advance, via the relevant dealer) this would prove useful, it may save a wasted trip out to our own site if we felt the machine wasnt any good, - the current demo area is rubbish, Blec stonerake that is demo'd every year, a laser grader that in all honestly only a contractor would use, little mini diggers, plus the usual wood chippers / tree climbing demos, cant they be more imaganitive, given the range of kit they have on show??
25 Oct 2009 by Dave
Hi Neil, I hope that all's well with you.
Many people question the need for a trade show, but there are also many positive arguments for having a show. Certainly the larger companies with national dealerships, good area coverage with their trade representatives don't need a show.
However there are an awful lot of smaller companies without that infrastructure who are reliant in meeting clients at a central venue.
There are also many Groundsmen and Greenkeepers who don't look after sufficiently large enough facilities to have the luxury of reps calling in touting for business and again need to have a central show to view all that's on offer.
Certainly the internet and mobile phones has made the access of information much, much easier, but again not everyone yet has access to the internet and viewing on-line doesn't always give you the full feel of a product/machine.
You will see from the surveys (when published) that there is also a clear need to get people together at least once a year.
The reason why Harrogate and Windsor are failing is down to the outdated format and the locations, as well as the trade being less able and inclined to continue their support of two events every year.
The reason why you don't see more demonstrations at Windsor is that there is no fine turf, if I was a fine turf machinery manufacturer I wouldn't see any benefit in trying to show a machine on rough grass/ground.
The fact is that even when you demonstrate a machine on fine turf (golf greens/tees and fairways at the Reaseheath show), most people still insisted on seeing the machine again on their own ground before a commitment to buy.
The trade show is also the main revenue stream for the association, without its proceeds there would be major cutbacks in services to the members.
The Industry is treading water at the moment, neither Association will give ground to see a succesful merger. The trade can take the lead and facilitate the change, but for this to happen the majority of the people in this Industry need to back the initiative. Then we all have a very positive future.
25 Oct 2009 by EHU Mission Control
Yet again I feel that this subject is going round in circles, obliviously get no further in resolving many of the issues.
There are many people out there who are pationate about the industry, for what it provides but more so the long term future.
Lets stop bickering and making a kinds of excusses or contridiction. I call on us to physically get round the table, personally a larger venue, put those in question ie; Webb and co (pitchcare, goverment BIGGA) etc on the spot and thrash this out for the benifit of all and lets go forward.Once and for all.
I know when you have people for the likes of Lee who are relatively young want the best for the industry and supports the industry to the full, (a pat on the back Lee) and should be respicated by the industry but in many cases it is those in their ivory towers who are doing so much harm. A case of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil but also in some cases sweet FA
The logistics of get us all to attend is the major concern, I would be there as I feel it is paramount to the long term health of the industry.
Does anyone have any suggestion how this could come too fruition or is it simply a no go situation. Because I am tired of all words and NO ACTION
I have had my moan now!
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
An interesting thread and probably important but the verbosity of some posters makes it very hard work and time consuming.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
25 Oct 2009 by vid Last edited 25 Oct 2009
Dave, great to hear your opinion, I absolutely concur. I dont think that it would be necessary to outcompete the present associations at all in fact I think it very important (although not entirely vital) that the IOG, BIGGA, BALI (lets not forget landscapers, gardeners and lawn maintainers/contractors) etc are part of the bigger project - how else will it come together. What is needed is an umbrella organisation - afterall that is essentially what PitchCare has become in the periodical world - a magazine to encompass all branches of our industry - it is here where the power base should and does lie, if properly formed an umbrella organisation should naturally absorb these various smaller organisations without losing site of who benefits. Surely with a good independant trade magazine to keep it in line this should work.
Is it time to tentatively set out a mission statement and canvass support? Or are we in danger as Anti FA says above of going round and round in circles - all words and no action.
25 Oct 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 25 Oct 2009
What it needs is the few in charge at the current organisations to get their heads out of their arses and start worrying more about the industry than their cosy little empires...... or so I am told... alledgedly....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
"What is needed is an umbrella organisation" vid
PL- In my opinion, the answer is a definite yes.
"Is it time to tentatively set out a mission statement and canvass support?" vid
I believe that far more input is required from those interested in the thread before any statement or draft plan can be formulated. As for canvassing support many responses here appear to be suggesting that there is very strong support. Let's wait and see the Pitchcare survey results for further input ?
Yes, there is verbosity. As has been mentioned, the topic is not easily discussed in a few short sentences. I would suggest that several face to face meetings will be required just to gain any knowledge of where this could be taking the turf industry and then how to go about the various stages of implimentation.
vids comment on an umbrella organisation is my understanding of how to take the turf industry forward.
Such an organisation would set educational standards and curriculum (perhaps even hire the staff to conduct the training), minimum wages and conditions, minimum standards of ground use. i.e equipment, facilities etc for 1st class sport, and under. support to volunteer greenkeepers/groundsmen, marketing, workshops, conventions.
The organisation would elect or seccond those with suitable expertise from various sources. Government (national to local), trade suppliers, legal, health and safety, educational, existing specialist groups or organisations and possible a few more.
It is an opening gambit.
What is your input to this post or indeed your thoughts, ideas, input on the overall thread topic ?
What would the ordinary ( or extraordinary) Groundsman or Greenkeeper get out of 1 (trade) organisation that they dont already get from PC, IOG or Bigga or any other organisation?
Currently, we get the choice to look at PC , IOG, Bigga plus Hort weekly, + various other mags and websites for anything we need, if these were as 1 organisation everything would be under 1 umbrella, which could potentially monopolise everything and possibly limiting the flow of information that is currently available to everyone in the industry.
Currently ( Rightly or wrongly) individuals have the choice who they want to go to for advice, education, trade info and general industry news, resulting in constant improvements in everything ( think back to pre PC days, how much more choice in courses, education, information is available now????)
In my mind ,this offers a competative streak to the likes of PC, IOG, Bigga to continue to improve on their services to the industry, resulting in lower costs for education and more readily available information to all involved in the industry.
If one organisation was to go by the way side then it could be put down to members ( subscribers???) not supporting said organisation, maybe in favour of another option(??) because there services were below par or not competative.
At the moment, PC offers an outlet for all types of Groundsman to share their experiences, the IOG mainly concentrates on the higher end of the spectrum, and in honesty spend 3 months reporting on Saltex ( Aug - saltex next month - Sep - welcome to saltex - Oct - how great Saltex was(or wasnt!!)
If there was 1 organisation the the likes of PC would survive, because it is a good, informative site, but i believe that the same conversations about industry organisations would still be going on.......
OK .....
who actually needs something new, something not already out there, if you wish I am sure IOG and BIGGA provides its members with all they require, if not then so what, dont join em, but why must people be a member of 'something'?
What am I missing ????
You will never ever get the egos to loosen their grip on their empires imho and a joining of minds is a falacy.
It will eventually come down to the basics of business... give the punter what he wants and he will buy, if not he will take his money elsewhere......
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
25 Oct 2009 by Dave
An umbrella association isn't the answer, it's been tried (hijacked) before.
The point that I was making is that while the trade have to continue funding two lots of associations, there is less money collectively to go around.
I'm not talking about BALI or any other group on the periphery of the sports turf Industry, I'm talking about BIGGA and the IOG becoming one. Then there will be more money available to spend on taking our Industry forward.
What we have now is not sustainable.
25 Oct 2009 by vid
So there we go again, great big circle back to the negative comments, I reckon we get what we deserve - much of the same, no change, duplicity, wasted money lost opportunity plus lots of hot air and whingeing. I give up
I have not contributed to this thread as I felt I have nothing to offer and frankly got lost in some of the posts.
Now have to agree with the recent comments by Neil and Barry.
Not in favour of one big organisation and if honest am pretty happy with my lot at the moment.
I've been away in Oirland but am ploughing (or should I say earthquaking) my way through this thread and will pipe-up later.
Whilst I agree with Leeboy that it is rather daunting reading such long posts, it is not a subject that can be be discussed and the issues solved with sound bites and one-line comments.
As Dave says, one of the most impressive and thought provoking threads this site has ever seen.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Isnt it down to the membership of both organisations to propose such a move of unity?
Are they really the best people to lead our industry?
Despite the job losses that would occur and savings on administration, Why would unity make them do anything better in regards to policy?
I think there really needs to be some binding government influence to encourage such a move in conjunction with the sporting governing bodies. The influence of money from government/sporting bodies collectivilty will knock them into line.
But there really needs to be some experienced people from our industry involved, which isnt what BIGGA/IOG have to offer at present unfortunately?.
26 Oct 2009 by vid
If you structure an administration correctly there should be no problem with keeping competition alive within its structure just as departments fight against each other in many larger businesses and branches of governement. Are the IOG / BIGGA really giving us everything we need, can they as separate entities really be the voice of all of us? Is pitchCare going to champion all the causes that need to be adressed? Seeing as Dave has already said that is not how he sees PCs remit, I find it unlikely. Come on lets try and get some headway here can we hear what is wanted instead of how nothing will ever happen.
The IOG and BIGGA are far to busy looking after themselves and have clearly indicated they would be unable to agree. Surely then in order to get the industry together, somewhere we need a single voice and a single point of reference for anyone to get help. I think it very selfish to say I'm alright Jack I dont need change, without first looking around and seeing if that is the case with everyone else
Well Dave cards on the table and I think we were all looking for a difference, a revolutionary approach to this, and our, static cause. Maybe we all expected too much from the dynamics of PC, maybe we expected you to be the "Che Guevara" of our supressed Turf Industry! who knows? One thing for sure, if this is the way it eventually manifests then the need for drastic change is mandatory as future expectations should never be diminished. So what have we got here? two major Associations who don't gel,Contrary, at times Oppress each others values. then we have one of the two major Associations who don't have any desire to cooperate with you? hardly the recipe to structure a new beginning! and with half of our People sitting in caves with energy saving light bulbs as their only comfort and with their Health and Safety established by a cake of Lux with at best" tepid water to initiate any form of bubble in order to remove grime before dinning. What could possibly become so different tomorrow that was clearly not right yesterday?
Dave, if you are to accept responsibility for your solution then you must accept the charge to initiate and foster it by getting them around that table where, who knows, You just might have something? I sincerely wish you well on this as you have all us at stake! Best, Ian Mac
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 26 Oct 2009
......and here is where I enter the discussion (and what an interesting one at that!)
I think it is a bit much to put the weight of all this on Mr Saltman's shoulders! However, it is clear that what is needed in this rather 'stale' subject is a catalyst! Catalysts serve the grass plant well (in differing forms and ways) perhaps they can do the same here?
Perhaps the good folk continuing to read and post this thread might think of/suggest what suitable catalysts may be required to cause positive action from all parties.....
...once this is done, we can collectively then put the weight on Mr Saltman's shoulders to ensure these idea's/suggestions are actioned in some form....lol
It's a big industry, it's a multi billion pound industry that spans across the globe. What actions would make a change occur?
Sitting around a table to discuss what? Let's give them something to talk about, the question is WHAT? Over to us all!
"Isnt it down to the membership of both organisations to propose such a move of unity?" donals
This comment, together with Ian Mac mentioning "Che" caused a smile. The greatest modern example of a few leaders listening to the membership and achieving success is possibly that of the fal of communism in Russia. NO, I am not politicising anything. Merely putting forth encouragement as to what can happen if enough openly come forward with ideas on how to move something forward. In this case, our turf industry.
So..examples of how special interest groups can and do represent the members well.
http://www.usga.org
http://stma.org
Due to population both exist in harmony perfectly well. Both led by extremely knowledgable people. Self funded with little or no government intervention.
I doubt it possible in the U.K.
And so are there other examples ? Yes, in Australia we find...
http://www.sportsturf.asn.au/ a fledgling group led by those who are industry trained in most cases.
http://apprenticeship.det.nsw.edu.au/html/industrial.htm government run dept. who in combination with the Australian Workers Union set wages and conditions.
http://www.agcsa.com.au the equivalent of USGA or BIGGA
http://www.nsi.tafensw.edu.au/HTML/About_US/ryde_college.html ...Government dept. for the training of Greenkeepers
In this Australian example we find Education, Wages, Conditions etc. organised by government with no vested interest other than to provide standards. We find seperate membership driven organisations working seperately and yet in harmony. (Both with strong greenkeeping backgrounds by the leadership)
Is the above eye opening, of any value in putting them forward as examples of how the industry can go forward in the U.K. ?
Where does Pitchcare fit into this scenario ? In all of the above, each has its own magazine or means of distributing information. Perhaps if any of the above were to be adopted PC could be the marketing / magazine for the industry as a whole ?
POA 7 don't you threat over Dave, he has the capacity, and the broad shoulders. I told him once before! It's not enough to take aim; he must fire? It's good you have entered this thread commissioned by Peter as we all have value, and have a value to all. Ian Mac
26 Oct 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 26 Oct 2009
So what we need is.......
The British and International Sportsturf, Greenkeepers, Groundsman, Volunteer and Professional Turf Practitioners Union and Association Grumpy or Not or BAISGGVAPTPUAAGON for short lol....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Sensibly though, to appeal to the masses that it needs to represent.....
Turf Professionals Assoc. or the Sportsturf Assoc.. maybe.... give it a name and it will have a presence?
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hi Peter,
The american and Australian examples are perfect. A golf course superintendant in the US is a resepcted profession. In the UK you are still a grass cutter
In the UK it needs a government initative to set about doing similar in US/Australia/New Zealand.
Trouble is the profit margins in training and education arnt as great as advertising or trade shows which is really why BIGGA/IOG arnt running too hard down this road on their own promoting training/education.
It will need real gov. support. I am sure with the right pre-conditions set out by gov/sporting bodies it can be all done to suit the UK environment.
Is it a simple case of training/education small profit margins, so leave that to government
and then with trade shows/advertising/mags etc.. leave that with us because theres loads more money to be made out of it!
Sorry thats a bit cynical it couldnt be like that, I'm wrong of course!
If you want to take the industry forward , and develope an organisation that encompases all the members needs, then just develope pitchcare into that body.
Do not be distracted by other organisations, just produce a stratergy and evolve, increase membership through action,and taking every oportunity to spread the word.
Dave , do you have the capacity to expand pitchcare, or indeed the will to?
Even minor steps forward will bring benefit.
I do not know personal circumstances with yourself and staff members , but i believe you should just go for expansion , and let members follow you, not wait around .
Pitchcare is a good site that needs to develope more, which will mean a change of structure, and reorganisation.
Can i suggest that pitchcares "terms of reference "are reviewed , and if change , these are then published for comments , p.c. then either change them, or remain static, at least everyone has a chance to have an input into an organisation that i believe actually wants to listen to its members views.
So is it to be Pitchcare PLC then with members owning a share...... how do you get Dave and John et al others to relinquish their time, money and investment in what is a company, a business to morph this to a representing body, don't even know if this is possible let alone relying on people who may have remortgaged houses and sold their souls to the devil (banks) to get it to where it is today.....
Maybe the body is to employ Pitchcare as its voice, its window, its door to the world?
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Sport is an entertainment. There are those who do the entertaining on the surfaces provided. Those who support the entertainment are the base of the pyramid.
This was first brought up in at a Groundsmans conference in the mid 1980's. The analogy was a pyramid. Up until that time somewhere along the base was the groundsman, tgether with the cleaning staff, concession sales outlet staff, car park attendants etc.
Again...NO..I am not suggesting that those who were on that pyramid base are any less than any other group who then supported the apex of the pyramid.
The speaker had the then novel idea.."Turn the pyramid upside down" so that the order of professionalism and skill was at the top.
The concept is that a united peak is formed. Each works with the other to provide the customer with value for money or entertainment at the level appropriate for the standard of entertainment.
So..the "pyramid" peak became a combination of Groundsman and Players or users of the facility. The facility can be a small local park right up to a World Cup and / or Olympic venue. The volunteer groundsman / ameteur player to the full time professional player at Wembley, MCG, Beijing, Yankee Stadium.
The reality is just that. No managed turf and you dont have players improving their skills. Skill is what spectators want for their money.
To improve the players skills requires the surface to be prepared to best possible standard. As there is no automated system for the production of such surfaces, they then require human input, the groundsman / greenkeeper / tuf manager call him or her what you will. Grassgrower :)
The remainder or base of the pyramid is support for the peak. And so we have suppliers, administrators, educators and outlets for the dissemination of information.
Duplication of the support mechanism is costly and somewhat inefficient especially if in the hands of those unfamiliar with the needs of the peak.
For ease of reading I will continue this post with another.
26 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 26 Oct 2009
Part two
The above is a side issue really but when taken together with the many thoughts, ideas and comments so far in this debate, I am hoping to offer my own thoughts as to what is "broken" in the turf industry and see.. by listening to the grassroots and others.. if it is possible to gain concensus on ways and means to "fix" the problem.
I, and others have put forward government assistance in educating the groundsman as they have far greater expertise in organising and setting curriculums than just about anyone else.
If that is possible then the relevant turf representaive group(s) can concentrate on the practicalities of hands on training and industry supplier support to the groundsman by way of conferences, get togethers, trade shows etc.
i.e. setup government financed education facilties specialising in turf management from apprenticeships to tertiary levels.
Standardise training across the country, or world for that matter.
Being government, they have skills in negotiating directly with the Union movement and so wages and conditions can be set and enforced nationwide more readily than by a vested interest private group.
I began this thread with a series of questions I have as yet to see any response as to what is the purpose of IOG / BIGGA or indeed..Pitchcare.
I do understand and strongly support Pitchcare and my undertsanding of its aims.
The dissemination of information to aid and assist the groundsman as well as advising the groundsman of equipment / products available to potentially improve their surfaces.
I see PC's role as the marketing outlet for the turf industry for profit.
Dave if I have it wrong now would be a good time to jump back in :)
The purpose of IOG is ? The purpose of BIGGA is ?
Well said Peter i totally agree as per my other comments previous.
So will trade shows,mags,ads etc.. be a wrestling match between all three, survival of the fittest sort of thing. I hope PC wins myself.
Though we will need someone sensible to sit wit gov. bodies to coordinate a real structure
Over 1100 viewers but only around 16 who have something to add ?
Again....disagree...agree...put forward your own thoughts ..even anonomously if there is a problem with those knowing who you are publicly.
This is about how YOU can improve YOUR chosen profession or industry.
No point sitting on a bag of fertilizer in a cold tin shed complaining about your lot in life.
Go for it...nobody is perfect with ideas and often the greatest suggestions come from one small voice.
YOUR voice could be heard around the world and therefore change an industry for the better.
Cause and Affect donals. In a capitalist society the market will sort out quick enough who survives.
Pitchcare will, as its beginnings are at the grassroots of the industry and the ideals remain so even after all this time. A company or group that is led by one of the best grassgrowers, well supported and employed by many who are industry based.
Did Dave just say the cheques in the mail ?
Sorry Peter but some of us prefer to be sheep and don't want to lead.
its also relevant that the members of BIGGA AND IOG have as much right to have a say in how their association progresses.Whats the opinion of BIGGA and IOG members who read this thread???
mad4mud
26 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 26 Oct 2009
Heck Vic..I, and others, would be happy if all 12000 members of IOG participated and BIGGA members. I wonder how many members they have ?
For that matter Stephen Bernhard from Bernhard & Co, Martin Taylor (Sygenta), Dave Withers (Ransomes) Nick Kirbride (Scotts), Don Steel (GTC) John Pemberton (BIGGA), John Sullivan (Pencoed College), Jim Crooks (Elmwood), Geoff Webb (IOG)..not sure if Leslie Strathie or Mike Clasper (HM Rev and Customs), Kevin Brennan MP (Min of Further Education) or Dave Lammy MP Min of State Higher Education) are readers of this most wonderful of online magazines ?
They would add to the discussion of where and how our turf industry moves forward.
While I am at it...anyone know which Union represents Groundsmen ?
May as well have all around the table ?
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7
Quote Mr Mac
POA 7 don't you threat over Dave, he has the capacity, and the broad shoulders. I told him once before! It's not enough to take aim; he must fire? It's good you have entered this thread commissioned by Peter as we all have value, and have a value to all. Ian Mac
Well, firstly I didn't 'threat' anyone! - lol
Secondly, I am sure if 'you' told Dave he can do, then he 'must' do! - lol again!
The industry needs what? It needs someone who will give it the exposure it deserves, part of the problem is that 'TURF MANAGERS' (that's a good title for groundsmen, greenkeepers, et al.) do not receive the recognition they deserve nor require. And lets get real, we/you are seen as 'simple grass cutters' by the wider public.
I can't imagine (at this moment in time) that any 10 or 11 year old kid would say "I want to be a groundsman when I grow up" Why, poor exposure, poor communication for a start.
Now, let's say the ground was discussed in detail on 'Match of the Day" then we'd be on our way! Or featured before a big live match as a discussion point!............just a couple of examples!
Simple grass cutters! It is not a 'cool' job. We all know that this is not the case, but, the public - like it or not - see it this way!
What if it were well known that a top golf course course manager can command salaries of £70,000 plus! You could work just about anywhere in the world, you are almost guaranteed work! You needed a good understanding of science, management, the environment and much more - The persona would soon change!
What is needed is a high profile (for a start) and someone who has influence and a personality to attract and maintain good press!
There is more, but this may be a good start!
Bring it on!
Hi Peter
A great thread and well done for being willing to express your passion in such a public arena.
Many of your ideas have been tried before and failed due to either the fact that most people in this industry want to to do a job, get paid for it and not think too deeply about "getting involved" (and noone can be blamed for that), or some have tried to use the organisation for their own agenda. At least with Pitchcare you know what it is about - making a profit. At the same time it has served the industry very well indeed and Dave should be applauded for the guts to keep at it and also his staff putting up with him!!
Poa 7 - I think we missed a trick over the Wimbledon discussion re the lighting and also the Wembley pitch. Both were very much in the public eye and it was a great opportunity to tell the world that turf management is about the right kind of light, the correct rootzone material and construction - ie it is about science as much as about mowing. But who was on tele on the 6.00pm news when these things were being talked about? No-one from our industry. We need an organisation that is also media savvy, not just turf experts.
No easy answers but lets keep trying. For my pennys worth I though the idea of the IOG doing training while Pitchcare do the marketing was a great basis for going forward.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
For Head Greenkeepers this is an easy read, for me its easy, yes sport pays my mortgage, but I am a lowly contractor on the outer edge, what do I know, but it is interesting all the same, you have to 'live and love' sportsturf else why do it, thats my insight, seeing that same gleam in peoples eyes .... but what I do see is the vast majority of the people involved in the production of sport surfaces week in week out, the higher percentage that the new 'entity' needs to be a voice, needs to represent, needs to appeal to are either volunteers, giving up their own time at either end of their working life, who need support, info and assistance, guys who sit on a mower or a tractor day in day out who want access to education, a decent wage and prospects IF they want to progress beyond grass cutters, managers who want access to a system that enables them to see their charges gain experience, qualifications, to be able to be nurtured on, who want decent candidates to be turning up at interviews actually wanting a job in 'sport', .......
This is a massive call.... do it halfway and it is no better than whats already there ... and it will have no credibility with the sport bodies or government or money or suppliers that will inevitably have to 'sponsor' it..
It HAS to be all encompassing for the SPORT industry and reflect the people out there day in day out else its the same old same old....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hi Andy....this has been ongoing since W.G. Grace and like many well intentioned proposals can and does become bogged down at times.
I agree that over time many opportunities have been missed. Doesn't mean that there are not other opportunities looking ahead.
Pitchcare has many good resources and so can or could be the instigator of preliminary discussion..yes Dave..again.
Maybe a quiet chat over a cuppa with those who may be sympathetic to the cause ?
Let's see now.... Richard Lewis happens to be a Rugby League man, also happens to be Chairman of Sports England along with having had a bit to do with Tennis.
Jack Rowell oops Dr. Jack heads Rugby in Bath I think these days.
Phil Carling at UK Sports..bit of a cricketer even gained a blue for hockey as well.
Dominic Walsh played Rugby for a long time likes golf and so knows a little of being face down in the mud (turf)
Dave Cole Director of Business Support at UK Sport now he could be worth having inviting over for a cuppa.
The idea is to talk to professionals or in some cases government people who have knowledge or advice to offer.
As mentioned..sometimes we have to look outside the box for answers to our questions regarding what is possible and how we may go about making progress.
On the same track Barry as are quite a few others. It seems to be not the "what" so much but more "how" that needs input ?
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7
Disagree with that last statement above Peter, the 'what' has not even been discussed fully yet, simply touched upon, it's a good start but ... there is more
Peter, enjoying the thoughts, BUT just as much as the 'what' needs defining the 'how' and 'when' needs sorting so that the 'why bothers' are at least interested in a look... else it is all another load of 'jibber jabber'...............
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7
Good one Barry ..
I have lost interest already, I only check here now to see how much longer it takes to scroll to the bottom of the page than it did the last time I looked!
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 26 Oct 2009
Good one Lee ..
Come on Lee, what would you like to see change? It has to start somewhere, why not here? Personally, I hear what you are saying, as there have been many discussions about all this previously that have gone nowhere, but have planted a seed in peoples minds. There's a start!
This one is different - it's a 'sticky' that must mean something! ... lol
I wonder what would happen if at the next BTME (or a suitable place in the Midlands in the future), a room (may need to bigger than you imagine) was booked, and the content of the thread was summarised, discussed (in a professional manner, and then formalised as a proposal or working document. I would certainly make the effort to attend.
Just imagine the buzz around the show, Mmmmm, what's happening in there?
Then let's say that attendee's were given individual tasks to meet or complete. This would generate another, more concise and perhaps even more constructive second meeting. Imagine if the discussions were then documented and released to the industry via some portal that the industry visits and reads? Get everyone involved!
As I say, it needs to start somewhere
I wonder how newsworthy it would be if it were found out that through 'this new fangled thing called the internet' managed to bring people together and change things for the better! Maybe 'grass cutters' are not as simple as people think!
LEE THIS IS NOW THE BOTTOM OF THE THREAD! 5 seconds me thinks?
I am egalitarian. And so "lowly" is a word I struggle to comprehend.
Don't care if someone grows grass for a living or volunteers.
Point is that we all grows grass or offer advice as to how to do it or supply the machinery, training, fertilizers, whatever.
And while the managing of turf is predominately sports industry based, there are others who manage turf away from sports.
All of those in turf management will wonder why it is green side up at some stage of their chosen career or endevour.
For me it is how do those of us encourage the new turf managers to take up the profession ? We should be offering, a fair days pay for a fair days work, or if money is not there then access to information which will allow those volunteers to create improved turf surfaces for the user.
There needs to be incentive for the young to take up the career at a reasonable cost. A future where they will be recognised as professionals, rewarded with recognition and prestige.
If he or she chooses golf then they need a professional support group such as BIGGA. Should they choose Cricket or Rugby etc. then IOG.
You can see that I am not against either private organisation.
I just don't see a way of re-jigging either group for the betterment of the turf manager. One way could be to create an umbrella to handle education, wages, conditions and administration. The two groups could then be more effective in promoting hands on development through trade shows etc.
I am against duplication of funds. Believe strongly that such organisations be led by industry based teams. The education of the future turf manager needs to be cost effective, standardised across the country, be recognized internationally with wages and conditions set and enforced by government through an arbitration commission. Be part of the technical and further education system and linked to a parent national body.
If the spectator pays to enter a facility they expect the best possible from both the player and the surface. The players in general are well and truly recognised and rewarded with excellent conditions of employment.
All I suggest is that the groundsman, the one who manages the surface, is given and can expect the same conditions.
And so.. How is this to be achived ? Once we know that..then we can proceed with putting in place the what and then the final step of when.
There is a story on the front page of PC..the story of Michael Phoenix. I sat read it over and over again. To me it is what it is all about.
The unsung quiet achievers trying hard to achieve the impossible without the wizz bang equipment and prestige of being part of a large venue.
It is the turf manager like him that we need to support as an industry. In achieving that, we will all benefit by the the ways and means taken to enhance the future of our industry.
Not patronising..not even close.
Simply suggesting that this industry needs to recognise all involved and provide everything it possibly can to the likes of Michael, the apprentices, the high flying stars of turf management, by having professional representation with conditions to make the next generation want to be a Turf Manager.
How do we go about it ?
After days of reading copious amounts of opinion etc we're back to the simple question
How do we go about?
Great.
Any answers?
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
26 Oct 2009 by Poa7
.......And this is where I step OUT.
It's the 'how' do we go about it that is the problem and the reason why nothing seems to happen.
What needs to be established is what is it that the industry wants? - the how we go about it comes after the establishment of the needs and requirements.......it must be me????
I mean, at this point, this thread thinks that it has established how things need to change. It hasn't........
Peter, that is fundamentally how we all move forward in order to encourage the next generation of who we are. How? by allowing them the courtesy of being heard. Your thread has served well amd it has been a pleasure to have been privy to your philosophies. Ian Mac
Poa7 has asked and surely those interested in this thread can come up with responses.
"What is it that the industry wants?"
The suppliers have a brand name, tested and true equipment or product.
IOG and BIGGA are brand names and so that is not required.
The ECB has a brand name they also administer their sport, however they do not apparently train groundsmen although they do offer recongition by way of awards.
The various Players Associations represent the players.
Groundsmen do not have anyone representing them.
Groundsmen are often at the lower end of the pay scale and often the first to be unemployed during tough economic times.
Groundsmens working conditions would not be tolerated by many other professions or trades.
Example...few if any workers are expected to run as part of their position. Indeed they are often admonished if they do not.
Groundsmen are at the forefront of expectation. No other employee with exception to perhaps a neuro surgeon is expected to perform the impossible in all weather conditions.
Groundsmens health and safety has been an issure since time began. Very few are expected to drive machinery on such critical angles under all conditions.
Groundsmens basic training can take from 3 to 5 years. No other trade is paid lower for such knowledge.
One billion pounds to construct a sports venue, less than one million for the actual playing surface. When it does not perform it is the Groundsman who is at fault and dismissed.
The volunteer hurries in pouring rain from his employ to cover a wicket only to arrive too late. It is his fault the wicket is wet.
No need to continue this list of what does the Groundsman want as it would take too much space. But I am sure you know of more.
In short...Fair days pay for a fair days work. Advice from those who would have knowledge without being sold a product which may or may not be required. Training that meets global standards. Dispute resolution easily accessible and free of charge.
The above is where I am coming from. They are some of my own thoughts as to what a Groundsman wants. The industry seems to wish to make profit from the back of the Groundsman. It is time the Groundsman was compensated, not just financially, by his industry.
I have already mentioned the possibilites of how such could be achieved. But..this is only my opinion.
As it has been said a few times in this thread. What is it that we / you want..lets make a list..remove that which may be impossible for now but keep those ideas for future development. Form a concensus..meet to discuss and tune the list..create a list of who could be brought onboard to assist..meet with those people.
Ok..in my opnion..which is not yours..we need to hear yours..there I have posted 'what' and 'how'
The thread has NOT established 'what' or 'how'..yet
If you go through the various responses there are hints and clues as to the writers thoughts. Unfortunately there are very few writers so far. If it is a case of I'm Alright Jack...then so be it.
If you have ideas..bloody nora ..say something offer ideas..answers..of course there are those too willing to shoot you down..it is the nature of things..and yet those same people will quietly receive the rewards of your success.
morning all
The introduction of POA7 to this thread offered me some direction and I am finally beginning to understand (I hope) the point to these discussions. At times it is confusing to draw a conclusion from these discussions and I feel Lee”s comments are as valid as any in this post.
Grass is grass and therefore possibly we could assume the grass people are taken for granted.
Is Status and therefore recognition the goal?
Would it be realistic to suggest that a new self governing representative group is considered?
Pitchcare offers everyone a voice and with 25000 voices there will be a few good proposals.
Within the contributors and readers of this thread there are the right people to enhance the turf manager’s reputation.
also if we have our own union can we strike?
this is turning circles is it not better if PC IOG and BIGGA get round that table as was sugested
27 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 27 Oct 2009
Hi Parken,
Hope you are well.
I could consult with one of the many strike specialists over here. I'm sure we could then do it in style with their advice if need be!!!
I reckon.... I could get an army of French greenkeepers, if it meant a few days off work for them to support this......we could have big numbers!!!
Sorry...... I just had to get that in to add a bit of light hearted fun to the post!!!
Regards
Dave in Paris
Learning is there for every man
27 Oct 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 27 Oct 2009
OK final view from an 'outsider' bored with going round and round....
WHAT is the question that has not been remotely scratched, I still do not understand why, when there are established credible representing bodies, that we need another, for what purpose will this achieve other than provide a home for the disgruntled few who may have burnt bridges and find themselves homeless.. (sorry but had to be said) or is it really a need for the thousands of people employed in the sportsturf industry not members of anything but can freely access info etc here..... a good point for a change in the Poll on the first page one thinks to see who actually wants this and what their needs are... or does apathy kill this off before it starts..
Does the industry need more of the same old same old or does it need to lobby the existing to make them a more 'customer' friendly place that provides exactly what the membership wants...
Joining forces of any of the existing is obviously not going to happen, competing against them is a foolish time and money wasting exercise IMHO especially in the current economical climate, as industry support is needed to give this 'thing' credibility
Is what is actually needed a whole bigger picture, as I think Dave was prompting, a representation of the whole Sport Industry, an Association that IOG, BIGGA, PITCHCARE.COM can equally represent their members as association members themselves, somewhere that will have instant credibility, that will attract both in sponsorship and support the large companies that have ability, other industry representing bodies such as LDCA, TGA, SAPCA, BAGCC, could be alongside as well as adding to the credibility, forming a much larger voice for the needs of sport provision as a whole, able to lobby and bring about discussion within the main sports administrators such as FA, ECB, EGU etc etc and the government........ on anything to do with the provision of sport surfaces and the people employed to do so.
This will be the only way forward.............
Goodbye.
PS...
Thought of a name ........
British Association of Sport and Turf Surfaces or BASTS for short..........
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Moving towards agreement is where I see the thread going.
That needs to be the Poll question. Is there a need for a parent body representing the sports industry ? (as outlined by Barry Pace)
I agree with your suggestion Barry. From reading Dave's thoughts, and a few others, it does seem as though we are heading in that direction.
As many have been suggesting in their own way, the problem is not so much with BIGGA , IOG or even PC. The recognition, wages and conditions, health and safety, etc. is partly due to lack of meaningful consultation with the likes of FA, ECB, EGU and Ministry of Sport.
To resolve the "Bigger Picture" issues there is a need for regular consultation. That way with regular meetings, issues such as what do the sports expect from the turf industry (Greenkeepers / Groundsmen / Turf Managers) and what can they, meaning both sides, provide.
Information can then be passed back to the specialist groups (members) such as IOG, BIGGA, LDCA, TGA, etc. Or indeed, two way traffic...concerns of those groups be discussed at the parent group meetings.
I would put my hand up to vote in favor of such a parent body being formed.
Bonjour David and tak for the support
Apologies all, but this fool is non the wiser as to “what” the “what” is
Beginning to think I have not got involved with a writing competition
Good luck chris
Just to continue on from Barry's suggestions....just what would be on the agenda of the regular meetings of the "Parent Body" ..not sure about the name for now.
Maybe....
So you want to have an Olympics ? Which is the better field design specification for the turf surface...indeed..the synthetic suface and how will it be managed ?
Left in the hands of an architect the design of the venue roof, irrigation, turf type, drainage, equipment and a whole host of important matters are given the go ahead without consultation of those expert in turf management. You know..the ones who have to present to the world the architects dream.
As an aside..many turf managers spend as much time in the class room as an architect..just their speciality is different.
So you want to have a rock concert two days before the cricket world cup ? You do know what happens to the turf ?
So you wish to place television scaffolding on the edge of the 4th green ? Of course you know the problems in doing so ?
So you wish to train for hours prior to the X v Y football game broadcast around the world ?
So 85% usage of the field returns a profit huh ? And you are complaining about having no turf for the finals ?
These are just day to day issues that the Turf Manager faces which have been going on for years and nobody in higher authority listens. With feedback at decision making time comes a better result for the event.
What other items could be discussed by the parent body ? Education curriculum, Health and Safety, Wages, probably other matters ?
The parent body, apart from undertaking the above and whatever else we, the industry come up with, would provide a direct link between the dreamers (event proposers, government, unions, specialist industry groups and the doers..the turf managers
12000 IOG, 20000 PC and who knows how many BIGGA and other industry group members there are, "speaking" or having representation, with those who come up with ideas to entertain via sport the spectator
27 Oct 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 27 Oct 2009
What is what? what, what!
What actions would make a change occur? In order to have discussions around a table we need to give them all something to talk about, the question is
WHAT DO WE REQUIRE & NEED from a body?
What should 'the' body try to succeed?
WHAT needs to be done to improve things for the man on the ground?
WHAT needs to change to bring 'the' industry forward into the 21st Century
WHAT is it that is missing that makes everyone moan and groan about the current situation?
What can we do to ensure success and ensure any goals are met?
In what capacity do we think that the current status quo should work together?
What DO WE WANT?
After the 'whats' have been answered the 'hows' can be looked into? Perhaps over a cup of tea?
Loz makes a fine cuppa. 2 sugars and milk
:)
Yes it is a serious debate..but much can be achieved over a cuppa
I've got a how. How many people actually care about some governing body made up of who's?
"So you want to have a rock concert two days before the cricket world cup ? You do know what happens to the turf ? "
October 8th 2009 Fleetwood Mac
October 9th 2009 Sweden training
October 10th 2009 Denmark v Sweden World Cup qualifier
What happened? Denmark won 1 -0 and qualified for the world cup and we took Sunday off.
respectfully Peter , i could not let that one go
kind regards
chris
27 Oct 2009 by SOS
Great thread, but what does everybody what from it? the various infurstructures are in place for those who wish to take advantage of them, but many need to be fine tuned into the 21st century. Marketing is the key, but what attributes does any organisation do for our profession in regards to this. Before we run we should learn to walk. If a body was made up and we met the PM and his/her sporting friends what would be spoken about apart from funding? Lets sort our own house out by better marketing, education etc etc for the good of us all from trainees to head groundsman/course managers. A stronger voice is needed and PC may be the platform but the train hasn't arrived yet chaps.
27 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 27 Oct 2009
Exactly one of my points Chris :)
The "you" I was meaning was those who decided to have such an event schedule.
Out of curiosity..was your professional opinion sought prior to the go ahead for such ground use ?
I am aware of some venues that actually do have the turf manager as part of the scheduling team for the facility and his or her opinion is well and truly considered. However, that is not the "normal" situation.
Part of the "advice" the proposed parent body would offer venues is just how the playing surface will be effected. That advice would be based on the opinions of professional input from all concerned.
Just looking at the schedule you had, was any consideration given to the physical and mental strain placed upon the venue. i.e turf, concessions, security, cleaners etc. ?
When the "circus" moves on very few are aware of the effects on both the turf and turf manager during and after the event. Not surprisingly there is tremendous "burn-out" of staff over a period of time.
i.e. health and safety as well as turf production issues
At your ground, Denmark may have still won. That is the players responsibility. Many are quick to "blame the groundsman" for a surface that was out his or her control in preperation.
Good point SOS
Funding may not necessarily be all that costly for such a parent body. Many or most of those on the "board" are already being paid by their association or department.
As far as marketing of the board is concerned..that's where Pitchcare comes in.
Obviously PC would have a seat on the "board" as they would be the marketing arm. i.e. up to them to get the word out of changes that have happened, what the "board" is looking at for the benefit of the associations etc.
As an extension of that thought, PC would then have a direct link to the marketing services of UK Sport or several of the other government sports organisations.
Such a parent body may actually increase membership of the specialist associations. Members could lobby their delegate to have problems or ideas brought forward. Especially if they were issues that could or do effect all across the turf industry. Not just say, golf or cricket or football, park turf etc.
I can see an area of the industry not being addressed and I am wondering how such a parent body would assist...the volunteers of the turf industry ?
Vic..I have no idea how many care. Yet again, part of why we are using Pitchcare's message board to discuss and find out.
I am sure there are those from the various groups or associations reading this thread. That being so perhaps this topic is being discussed privately among themselves ?
Eventually it is hoped that "feedback" will come into the open forum
Evening Peter
Trust this is relevant to your original thread
My opinion was requested but I do appreciate this is not always the case.
Regarding the physical and mental state we have successfully managed to overcome similar challenges before. We try to approach these schedules as challenges and not interferences. We enjoy them.
A positive mental approach is key to any of our achievements.
Denmark winning added to our success, it rounded off a few weeks of planning and a few intense days of commitment
27 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 27 Oct 2009
Evening Chris
Yes it is relevant in that there is hope.
The good news is that you as the turf professional was asked your opinion on that occasion. Wether it was taken or not might be a different point in some ways but if it wasn't..then the relevance is..why not ?
The not so good news is that your professional opinion is not sought on all occasions when relating to the playing surface use.
In my situation, when being part of a team trying to drag an international venue into the modern age, the Chairman was before his time in many ways. He had the turf professional sitting on a major works and ground committee as well as having the turf professional in attendance for every production meeting.
Yes..sometimes kind of boring as I had no real interest in ticket sales, bums on seats or advertising, but when it came to the turf then all attention turned my way.
Unfortunately that is not the way of many senior administrators. I give benefit of the doubt that some just dont understand the role of the turf manager.
That same thinking needs to be changed from the volunteer turf manager to the major international venue turf professional
Is it worthwhile to poll the subcribers to gain some insight on their opinion of a parent body ?
At all levels we all have a responsibility to educate our managers with the knowledge of the consequences of their decisions. It is also important to be realistic with our assessment of the motivating factors driving these decisions. If we wish to become more of an integral component of the business plan we have to shed off the “keep off the grass” paranoia
I have read this thread with an open mind with the intention to understand what these association discussions are all about. I maintain some of the potentially perceived negative comments are relevant as they display, as with me a lack of comprehension as to what the industry wants or a lack of interest.
Thanks to recent comments I am learning and reading a list of “whats”. Then I got to consider “what would I want” (apart from the obvious)
I would be interested in anything which improves and secures the future of the industry.
Peter, perhaps a pole to determine which PC readers are interested in this topic may be a practical starting point. Don’t be mis-lead by the hits on this post as some readers will have hit it at least 20 times.
For example would the PC readers be interested in attending a discussion (possibly at Harrogate) with Pitchcare IOG and BIGGA all present. Prior to the meet a set of points for discussion could be drafted by all concerned. From there a list of objectives could be determined and it will then become clearer what is missing and what is required.
From there it could be decided who can provide the needs required or is it time to consider an alternative solution
Concluding this is a major challenge and I wish you all every success on your quest
Enjoy the day
chris
28 Oct 2009 by Poa7
What we need is a forum. Online would be good. Specific areas could be discussed (and moderated - we all know how unmoderated online forums can end up being like!).
It would be a place where people can highlight their views on subjects that are 'close' to them. The subject list would just need establishing first.
It might be also an idea to arrange 'think tank groups' that can focus on specific areas/subjects within each specific area. The conclusions of these 'think tanks' could then be documented and ratified.
What we would end with is 'the way forward'
Just an idea!
Forum and or face to face planning meetings are the way forward.
And no...I am not being mislead in the numbers associated with this thread..well not with the number of repsondants..the number of viewers is intriguing.
By planning meetings I mean "think tanks" ..an excellent sugestion.
Yes, in either the "think tank" and / or "forum" suggestion both need strong moderation so that the topic is not "hijacked" and used as an outlet for frustrations due to negotiation difficulties at the "special interest" group level.
As said a few times in this thread...the thread is about looking at a "bigger picture" of how to move an entire sports or sports turf industry forward.
Peter far too many 'buzz words' for my liking, "think tanks" "bigger picture" etc etc, next we'll be asked to "think outside the box" "raise the bar" "move the goalposts" etc etc. It's not big and it's not clever, let's just have straight no nonsense talk and discussion,
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
28 Oct 2009 by Poa7
Interesting post Tony. I mean no offense to you at all, but, all you have had to say so far is:
"An interesting thread and probably important but the verbosity of some posters makes it very hard work and time consuming."
and
"Peter far too many 'buzz words' for my liking, "think tanks" "bigger picture" etc etc, next we'll be asked to "think outside the box" "raise the bar" "move the goalposts" etc etc. It's not big and it's not clever, let's just have straight no nonsense talk and discussion"
I for one would be interested in your straight talking. Please inform us of your thoughts!
Tony,
Are you interested in discussing ways and means of moving the industry forward ? Your input would be of interest to many.
Until the hierarchies of The IOG, BIGGA and Pitchcare get together and start to discuss a possible merger or single constituent body you can have as much discussion on this site as you like, but it will be totally pointless and irrelevant, irrespective of the content and length of posts.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
True maybe Tony but that doesn't make the discussion any less valid, and a bit of well written English with some relevant quotes from esteemed people is so much better to read than some of the illegible drivel that occasionally turns up on here.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
.....and at this stage I think the ball Lies firmly in the IOG/PC court. BIGGA may well want to "come and play" later if those two can "get it on."
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Why use one word when a thousand will do, or something like that. As for well written English and relevant quotes was it Dylan Thomas who said, "Ambition is critical" not too many words there then.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
....but he was Welsh 
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Sorry, "Uchelgais yn hollbwysig."
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Uchelgais yn holl bwysig."....'n weithredol, 'n wir.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Final words from me, gywir, yn cael syth at y pwynt. Bye
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Without detracting in any way from this most significant of threads it's never bad to put in a bit of humour in the mix occasionally.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by vid
Personally Peter I both welcome the humour (I'll take your word for it) and the reminder that this is a British thread, and I say that in its true meaning as a lot of posts have the S Irish flag attached to them.
PitchCare has been a little misrepresented here as their current membership is a little over 39,000 - thats close to double the combined membership of BIGGA and the IOG. The mission statements of both Organisations are very laudable, and put the emphasis on the production of top class sports environments through helping to provide top class professionalism, along with representing the industry at a nationally recognised level. Thats tremendous, but at the end of the day 12,000 members does not carry much clout, nor does 7000 and in fact 19000 or 39000 is still small potatoes on a national scale. Especially if the sites/magazines are not read by a wider audience.
I have no problem with any of these mediums nor do I carry any 'baggage' from them (the majority of people I would think). I think they are well meaning and use their resources honourably and effectively.
I personally want a bit more however. I want to be considered as a highly skilled member of the workforce, respected by players as well as coworkers. I want to hear my industry speaking on matters pertaining to sports provision not some washed up or retired semi literate sports playing ignoramus (the list of these is huge). I want national coverage of the greenkeepers/groundsmans lot - not a 30 second soundbite to camera of some poor overworked groundsman in the middle of his most stressed preparation of the year - still in his dirty overalls - thats how we are perceived at the moment. Even the IOG still uses the word 'service' in their literature - how many of you out there like to feel you are 'in service' to your employers. Not me.
This thread is about getting more recognition, its about receiving more money fom a greater membership for more efficient use down the line in education and help, services and legal representation. Its about being respected, its about better media exposure, its about feeling justifiably proud of the skilled work that we do.
I dont know how big our industry is but I would expect it is 10 - 20 x the current readership/membership of pitchcare. There are ways of getting there - I wish the IOG in particular would step up to the mark as they represent the industry as a whole not just a small part of it and already have the experience. However with 3x the support it is pitchcare that provides our voice and that is still not heard outside of our industry. I'm sure Dave can contadict me but I am unaware of any national news item that was supported by or was promulgated by PitchCare. I am equally unaware of the IOG being mentioned. BIGGA being totally golf orientated does get a mention occasionally during golf coverage, but this only represents one section of the whole.
Thats what this is about - not what we have already got but what we can get. We all appreciate the training opportunities etc however a lot of these are not cheap or frequent enough. The construction industry is now heavily dependant on certification however the courses involved are mostly free to the small operator. Why is that not the case for us? I'll tell you - for all the 100s of 1000s of groundsmen and greenkeepers out there we do not represent ourselves effectively enough to be heard.
29 Oct 2009 by petermarkcraig Last edited 29 Oct 2009
One point I would make vid is that all the members of the IOG have to go to the trouble of applying and paying to join. Membership of Pitchcare requires you to be able to fill in details on an online form and click a button.
Now this is not taking anything away from Pitchcare who I am actually a small shareholder of and admire immensely, but I am pretty certain that if you attach the word active to the word membership, then claiming a membership of 39,000 is maybe alittle optimistic.
The IOG has stepped up to the mark in their approach to education.
The press use PC because PC is so accessible and Dave Saltman, a very good friend of mine has revolutionised the way our industry is represented publicly simply by giving US a mouthpiece.
A combined effort by both organisations together utilising each others strengths is vital if the right messages are going to meet the right people on a national and international level.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by vid
I had considered that Peter, but at the end of the day there is a paying element to PCs membership as well - nothing to stop the IOG doing likewise. Threfore I considered this a fair representative (after all thats the title of the thread) comparison for this arguments sake.
What is the paying element vid?
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by vid
Those that pay to receive the magazine - its only the online membership that is free. Anyhow its not the point I'm making, PC still represents the views of potentially 39000 people, the IOG 12200 odd. Perhaps if they had thought of a free website before PC they would now hold the market position and would have benefitted enourmously by the marketing possibilities of an increased readership. I think this would have been easy for them as a paying membership could have had access to other benefits. But for whatever reason they havent done this and even seemed to resent PCs success in this area. It was definitely an opportunity missed as I think their readership would be over 50000 by now. But still where do we go from now. Why werent the IOG hammering at the doors of the FA, the BBC, ITV, the newspapers over the debacle at Wembley. Why arent they there at the defence of Premiership groundsmen when some player has spouted forth his ignorance on television reinforcing the lowly position they consider a head groundsman to be. The same to be said during cricket commentary. I dont get it - its in their own mission statement on their website.
29 Oct 2009 by Torch
About four years ago I made the decision not to renew my membership of BIGGA. Lots of reasons, amongst them the feeling that they were completely out of touch with their rank and file membership. I have been down the road of trying to change from within, taking part on a local level and so on. After some years of organising local events for greenkeepers, seminars and such like with what I would consider a pretty good track record I have had my views about large bodies re-inforced.
What should we do about these large organisations? My view is that we do not need any of them. If you are good at your job then you will prosper. If you are not then the reverse applies. Training is available to allow career progression so we do not need BIGGA etc for that. Sweeping generalisation I know but thats how I feel.
Sometimes I cannot help but feel that people get on committees etc because they like doing it, the meetings and all that stuff. Once a body grows too big then they lose focus and do not represent the diverse interests of all involved.
Trade shows are generally a waste of time. I have attended BTME as an exhibitor and as a tyre kicker. I couldn't say that any of these experiences have been worthwhile.
The magazines produced by these bodies are generally laughable and the Pitchcare magazine makes them all look like comics. The quality and breadth of the PC offering should cause some of them to look hard at whether they should even bother.
I like meeting other greenkeepers and swapping ideas but I don't need to pay £120 a year for a magazine and the chance to play cheap golf.
The answer is None more black.
Vid if you read the other thread I have started you will know that I have covered your points re the IOG.
Yes they made a serious error in judgement by not accepting Dave's offer several years ago.
Yes they made a serious error in judgement by allowing their organisation and magazine to advertise the Wembley position which was offering a pittance.
Yes they have been guilty of many errors that have left it open to constant criticism over many years.
I have been a member the IOG for a long long time and have seen it at it's worst. The people it has acting on it's and hence our behalf are professional in their manner and approach. They have influence, albeit minor in all the major sporting bodies and I consider them to be a wholly different set up to the bad old days.
You can only make an impact if there is an audience to listen to you and PC can provide the platform we need to put across the message we all want to.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by Poa7 Last edited 29 Oct 2009
I thought I'd add this to highlight that IMHO the wording used in the thread is actually time saving.
(Also for a bit of fun)
"think tanks" - Definition = There are different opinions about think tanks; supporters like the National Institute for Research Advancement, itself a think tank, hail them as "one of the main policy actors in democratic societies ..., assuring a pluralistic, open and accountable process of policy analysis, research, decision-making and evaluation". Others consider the term to be a euphemism for lobbying groups.
"think outside the box" - Definition = Thinking outside the box is to think differently, unconventionally or from a new perspective. This phrase often refers to novel, creative and smart thinking. This is also sometimes called a process of lateral thought.
"move the goalposts" - Definition = To unilaterally change the rules, or terms of an agreement, especially in an unfair or underhand way.
I think we have been very good at getting the message across - with a complex subject, with minimal definitions for phrases that suit the style and content :)
29 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 29 Oct 2009
In attempting to keep "internal" matters away from discussion on the way forward for the turf / sports industry as a whole, I for one fully support Peters other thread. However, I can't help but add here that duplication of anything at a cost has to be considered a waste of limited finances. (NO peter I am NOT suggesting duplication of threads..sheesh..one is on what I would call internal problems IOG v BIGGA v PC)
I don't know Geoff Webb or any of the hard working staff at IOG but they do present a professional approach within there specialised (field turf) area of the industry. John Pemberton and his staff at BIGGA (golf) obviously do likewise.
As has been said so often here, there is a need for both organisations. I am simply suggesting that there is an obvious cost saving to members of both groups by considering the cost of duplication in some areas. i.e. marketing.
( End of my thoughts on Peters other thread which should be read in conjunction with this thread )
I would suggest that there are even further cost benefits, not just financial, in considering ways and means to have a parent group administer areas that overlap all sections of the turf industry, including parks and recreation.
Those areas to be considered are Trade input and support, Education, Health and Safety, and Wages and Conditions, representation with the major sporting bodies (ECB, FA, RU, PGA etc.)
Someone advised the KISS principal (Keep it simple)
1) BIGGA, IOG, and perhaps other specialised industry associations meet with PC to discuss cost saving benefits to all groups and members by using the publishing and marketing expertise and facilities of PC
2) Representatives of the above groups meet with senior Trade, Education, Health & Safety, Wages & Conditions, Government (sports sections), Sport Body (FA, ECB etc.) administrators to discuss the formation of a parent body.
3) The result could be that all, from the volunteer turf manager to Sir Alec Ferguson et al, would have input and offer guidance to the industry as a whole by tuning an industry that is not broken, simply needs direction and purpose going forward. (Before you jump..the body would have probably only 10 or 12 people plus those to take minutes and other admin positions)
4) Once such a body is established, and seen to be effective, the same principal can be spread globally so that all within the turf industry can benefit.
To me at least, these four items are what the thread title is all about...professionalism, recognition, higher standards for our industry.
Peter I was very aware of the differences between your thoughts and what I was trying to say which is why I started the other thread.
Sorry if it has impinged on this discussion.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by vid
I dont know if 'internalising' was pointed at me Peter, however I feel the IOG is very well placed to do exactly what we are describing, the frustrating part is that they havent and there is no sign that they will and there are some parts that make them somewhat unattractive.
PMC I am not actually trying to be critical, I have been a member of the IOG but am not presently - mostly due to finances. What I was describing is the void left by all smaller organisations. I think what the general grounds and green keepers would like to see is an organisation that openly and publicly stands up for them and can be seen to promote how good we are at our job - then I would think there would be an increase in interest in being part of an organisation. Any one on under 15,000 a year is not going to buy a subscription that is going to cost him £1/week unless he can see and feel the advantages of doing so. I dont think the IOG or BIGGA reach out to them at all on an individual basis - I think they hope that the employers themselves will join them.
I do not see or feel represented in the media at all, how else was the Wembley fiasco ever allowed to get to the point of actually sacking the underpaid head groundsman without any comment from our 'national' body in the national media, or, probably more importantly, without having any weight behind being able to influence the situation. Thats what I want - somebody that can speak up for the injustices in an effective manner and can represent the little man against the many bullying dinosaurs that are the sporting bodies.
Heck PMC..it is not my thread..ok so I began to ask out loud first..since then I am learning, as many of us are, just how the subscribers to PC think about the topic. And those thoughts are right across the board when it comes to ideas etc.
I think we are seeing some very well expressed thought processes coming forward so far. Almost to the stage where we can begin to become more precise..even me :)
VID..if it helps..
This topic was brought up over a beer during the first Australian Cricket Board (as it was then) groundsmans conference way back in the late 1980's...almost exactly as you are saying in your most recent post here.
It took a few years of wheeling and dealing..long discussion and meetings..without the aid of computer technology in those days.
In short..the end result was..a few of the more further up the ladder groundsmen were being interviewed by the media..even eventually were given short courses in media relations etc.
From that, word spread through various means. As an example..some of the so called senior guys would go out to the country regions to present seminars and talk to local government groups about grounds..the local media would be involved and so interviews with the local groundsman began.
From sitting on a bag of fertilizer in a tin shed to live television interviews internationally. College training courses introuduced wicket preperation as part of the curriculum, training in health and safety procedures, increased wages and condtions and for some groundsmen, preparing budget forecasts and sitting on venue committees.
oh..and just to throw it in..there were no equivalents of IOG and such back then. So having such groups today surely has to make progress easier.
All that you, and all of those others who wish it to happen, can be done.
Just a matter of collecting the needs or wishes of those in the industry and applying them logically and in a way that everyone understands and supports
29 Oct 2009 by vid
So what happened??? Did it just fizzle out from lack of support? was funding withdrawn? can this be resurrected, is there an already defined plan?
29 Oct 2009 by Dunk Last edited 29 Oct 2009
I have been reading this thread with interest throughout and am drawn to make a rather obvious comment to vid's last post - just in case no-one else does!
Having been involved closely with BIGGA throughout it's development - it has come a long way - IOG probably in a similar way too.
The one thing that is missing in both organisations is the person at the top has not experienced what we greenkeepers and groundsmen actually do (not their fault!).
They therefore do not have the passion which we have through on the ground experience.
PitchCare have this in spades because of Dave - BIGGA and the IOG will never understand fully the issues involved without a greenkeeper or groundsman at it's head - the arguement some years ago that no-one at the level of groundsman or greenkeeper could ever do the job is now utter nonsense as demonstrated by numerous high profile managers throughout our industry and beyond and not forgetting of course PitchCare's very own DS!...............
all of whom will never forget where they came from and are extremely proud of it!
29 Oct 2009 by SOS
I am new to this site but after reading some of these threads, how many who are posting are not in a managerial position? the manner and the way they are delivered suggest that many of these postings are not from regular staff ( I might be wrong )
Vid your posting is bang on and these guys on £15,000 per year are the people that any organisation is trying to attract and evolve for the good and future of our industry and hopefully some will break through to become head men. How many of them are posting their thoughts on this thread and if I asked my staff tomorrow about this topic I think that most would be oblivious to this thread . These guys make up the majority of pros in our trade so these are the people we should be asking feedback from.
29 Oct 2009 by vid
Peter after my brain engaged properly I realise you are talking about what was done in Os, is it still the case, was it effective and through what organisation did it first generate. Why cant we do that here - its so important that grass roots personnel feel engaged in the national if not international industry.
Thanks DUNK and SOS - I have been a groundsman and a greenkeeper, then after a spell at agricultural college and another in the forces I set my own business up and now have a small workforce of my own. They most definitely do not feel engaged by the trade organisations, I wish they did - they mostly rely on what I say or what my opinion is even though they have their own laptops and there is plenty of reading material. Being football orientated they would be much more impressed if the groundsmen at Premier clubs were allowed a say rather than uninformed and opinionated football pundits. Then they might think £1/week was worthwhile.
29 Oct 2009 by SOS
Hi Vid
So you are the marketing tool for your staff as many of us are and that's the way it's been for years. The only post my staff receive is their tickets for Saltex every year. It's great the organisers know their names and where to send the tickets to so why can't they send a feed back forms for these guys to fill in from time to time and that way we may get the true picture of everyones thoughts of what is required to move our industry forward.
VID..
Yes it is still very much the case in Australia.
It is not uncommon at all to read the main sports page or tv interview of the opinions of the turf manager or groundsman, depending on where the media outlet happens to be.
In some of the technical colleges, which are government run (Dept. of Education) the Hort / Greenkeeping courses are lectured by former greenkeepers, groundsmen or turf industry people. Dr. Peter McMaugh was one of my teachers in greenkeeping in the early days. He is internationally known today for his work in turf research. He began with his own turf farm.
vid - what organisation did it first generate ?
It was begun by groundsmen !!
Les Burdett (Adelaide Oval) and I asked the then ACB to help raise the profile by actually conducting a conference where the sport and the major grounds exchanged information. It was Les who first brought up the problem of nipple sole shoes on turf wickets. Puma then designed cricket footware to suit. We offered input into scheduling of fixtures etc.
As for the other major sports in that country, they too strongly support the various turf organisations.
Graham Logan (ANZ Stadium ..formerly the Olympic Stadium) is President of the Sports Turf Managers Association his committee is made up of trade reps and groundsmen / greenkeepers.
Tony Ware (MCG Arenas Manager) is in constant demand for seminars etc. and often quoted in the media. He is the guy that first trialled drop-in wickets.
Kevin Mitchell in Brisbane..once again major speaker at seminars in his state, Queensland, and often interviewed for TV and other media.
At the SCG..Tom Parker..there they have the Curators Breakfast during each Test series..he talks to the public about preperation, takes guests out to the wicket and explains life on the ground.
The list could go on but I think you can see that life or profile these days of the groundsman certainly is and can be different.
In my day..I was part of the team that negotiated the first work place agreement with the Union movement. I would like to think that the outcome for all turf managers in the industry was for the better from then on.
Yes..it can be done by the grassroots. As I said..having established, well run organisations today, surely makes the way forward that much easier
For those who have asked why I continue to push the limits.
Because this industry gave me so much. Now it is time to pay it back if possible. Something that many senior turf managers need to consider. I know how heavy a sandstone roller is and remember those early days before collar and tie and fancy dancy titles.
29 Oct 2009 by petermarkcraig Last edited 29 Oct 2009
" guys on £15,000 per year are the people that any organisation is trying to attract "
What we need is for no one in this industry after training to be on a ridiculously low £15,000 per year. If it takes £1 a week or even a bank breaking £2 a week to get the pay and recognition we deserve then so be it although I would argue strongly that subscriptions to organisations is not our major problem.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
29 Oct 2009 by Mike
Just having a quick flick through this thread - all good stuff.
I just wanted to query one point however, regarding the IoG membership figures.
I see that the figure quoted is circa 12200. It would be interesting to see how these figures are put together. I say this as the IoG offer several different types of membership. For example, if a company were to join the IoG as an affiliate member, would that count as one membership, or if that company had 100 groundsmen on their books, would it show up as 100 members?
Apologies for taking the thread backwards, but I suspect that the membership figure of 12200 might be a little misleading.
30 Oct 2009 by vid
Thanks Peter - where were we when all this happened!!
PMC - I couldnt agree more and have supported your view on this before. However that is what our lesser skilled groundsmen are paid, it is them that we need to motivate and it is also them that are unlikely to speculate £1/week on improving their lot, or at least they will take some convincing. Also why do the Turf Manager and Head Groundsmen s band have an upper limit - this allows top venues to severely restrict the remuneration packages offered with the IOGs blessing. According to them the maximum anyone in the industry can expect from a career is £40,000!!
Mike - the figures are all on the respective websites - beyond that I have no idea and if the normal attitude towards the 39000 potential readers of this thread prevails we will not be given the answer either - more fool them!!
30 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 30 Oct 2009
Probably going to cop crap for this loooong post but I don't know how to put the point forward without explanation...but what the heck...
Perhaps there needs to be a way of dividing each issue into its own "thread"
The heading for each could be titled according to the subject. Such as..Wages & Conditions or Education or Health & Safety or Parent body agenda etc. Each to be a "Sub Thread" of this thread.
All to be read either alone or in conjunction.
But !... here is the downfall of trying to unravel the problems and then try and put it all back together..via the Internet.
Know one knows the intent of the writer at the time of writing. i.e. am I smiling and this is funny or am I intense and taking this very seriously ? see..you don't know.
I assure you that for me this is a very important overall issure and so not too many smiles.
For instance..many kilobytes have been used to get to this point in the thread discussion..most of the text is valuable information as it is direct feeback.
Way up the line someone asked well yes ok now what happens ?
My input on that now is what I am saying here. Somehow...we need to get it all together but seperately otherwise thought flows will be mixed.
The most recent posts are to do with wages..I suppose what I am suggesting is that to keep on track there be a thread on wages.
Should we talk of education then that would be in a thread titled education. And so on.
It gets back to something that was said about being verbose and such. Keep the topic tight and everyone can follow the thread ?
The problem with that whole idea is that the various threads would become lost eventually or not in someones immediate face when looking at what is on the message board.
Obviously this entire topic is not the sole topic and so those with other turf enquiries post their own threads which is what PC is for.
When that happens each thread is moved down the list until it is out of sight..hasn't gone anywhere just not in view.
So..ok Pitchcare Pete.. How can it be done ? Dont say I lost what you were saying.. :)
How to keep the main thread visible for awhile and at the same time..the "Sub threads" also visible ?
I am loathe to try and start this on my own without feedback from those who have viewed and / or participated so far in this thread...and if the idea I have can't be done then what ?
The idea may bring in experts in the different areas who may not know a lot about training groundsmen but sure do know a little about collective bargaining or minimum wages or setting pay rates (bang for the buck style)
If you are now all lost then say so and I will try to explain the idea a different way.
While I am using up space... ONLY as a suggestion. Maybe the membership figures to be used as something for those outside the industry to be impressed by and so take notice could be the circulation figures of each of the turf industry magazines ?
Problem is some groups may not wish others to know ?
If we go with the published figures from each group of "membership" then some of the numbers could be way out as suggested by Mike A.
For instance..PC it is said has 30000 members. What it actually has is 30000 individual IP addresses for those who wish to partake online.
IOG has 12000 members. Is that as Mike A suggests or is it members in good standing (financial) or is comprised of those who paid but no longer participate or did not renew ?
BIGGA could be as above..I'm just not aware of the numbers. And yes the numbers I used here were approximates.
I sure am glad this is the General thread if it had been one of the proposed specialised sub threads I would be getting into trouble already for being off topic.
Get my drift ?
You can see why the ideas, for or against of a few do not make a whole. Input from most of the other 30000 surely would bring new light to this topic... good and not so good.
Point is..everyone has a say in the future.
I'm sorry but this for me is becoming a struggle.
Could it not be said that the vast majority working within the industry, couldn't give a hoot about any one else's pay or conditions? They simply want to go to work and get paid.
Those people don't want a voice.
I personally believe that top groundsmen are severely under paid. I went for interviews last year where £18,000 was being offered. That was insulting but the fact is there is always someone else who will take it. We all can guess where that ends up and our industry is again dragged down.
I don't have the answers and I guess this will all end in a lot of talking and little action, so you must forgive me for burying my head in the bunker.
Peter L.
I get your point but income, terms and conditions are the issues deep in everyone's heart and at the heart of the issues you raised in your first post.
A discussion purely on salaries has happened before and has ended up being one long moan rather than aproactive discussion on the reasons why.
People who can't be bothered reading the disparate views of their colleagues and peers one would assume are happy with their lot which is fair enough. But even though I work for a great company and have excellent terms and conditions and a good salary I have been at the £15000 per year level (actually £1700 a week in 1977) and would love to do something about righting the wrongs.
Dividing the issues will in my opinion dilute them.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
30 Oct 2009 by vid
you are not off topic at all Peter it is all about representation however is the following an accurate precis of what you were describing above (the rest has been said already)
'If you are now all lost then say so and I will try to explain the idea a different way.'
'I assure you that for me this is a very important overall issure.(sic)'
'most of the text is valuable information as it is direct feeback.
we need to get it all together but seperately otherwise thought flows will be mixed.
The most recent posts are to do with wages..I suppose what I am suggesting is that to keep on track there be a thread on wages.
Should we talk of education then that would be in a thread titled education. And so on.
The idea may bring in experts in the different areas who may not know a lot about training groundsmen but sure do know a little about collective bargaining or minimum wages or setting pay rates (bang for the buck style)'
'You can see why the ideas, for or against of a few do not make a whole. Input from most of the other 30000 surely would bring new light to this topic... good and not so good'
Again I dont want to patronise you Peter as I do agree with you but if you are concerned about taking up space and posts rapidly becoming obscured up the page then that last post manged it perfectly!!
30 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 30 Oct 2009
Point taken.
3 ways that come to mind to take the industry profile forward.
1) Meet face to face with all sections of the turf industry with the aim of uniting groundsmen, trade, education, health& safety, wages & conditions to create a parent body in conjunction with government organisations and sports who would administer all of the above areas
2) Lobby the specialised organisations in the industry to improve the profile etc. of the groundman
3) Senior groundsmen meet with the relevant sport organisations (ECB, FA, RU) on a regular basis to offer input to that sport directly. i.e. the sport organises training of groundsmen, discusses scheduling difficulties, rule changes pertaining to the field etc.
4) Any other ideas brought up through this thread or variations to any of the above
5) I'm all right jack and leave it all alone.
The trade can assist but cannot do it alone. Pitchcare will probably assist but cannot do it all alone. IOG / BIGGA may assist but cannot do it all alone.
It is up to the grassroots to come up with the future for the industry
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. (Martin Luther King Jnr)
I probably placed this in the wrong thread and so for those who missed it
Sport England..Sport England is a non-departmental public body under the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. It works to build the foundations of a world-class community sport system by working with national governing bodies of sport, and other funded partners, to increase participation and improve performance at all levels of English sport.
Seems to me that there needs to be a link from the Greenkeeper / Groundsman / Turf Manager to Sport England (or Scotland, Wales)
I imagine that the various sports (ECB, FA etc.) are linked to Sport England ?
So... the gap in the system is betweeen Turf workers and the sports ?
I see Ian Macs posts and I think I understand that there is little point in going straight to a High Court Judge for arbitration.
Can't arbitrate if you don't have concensus by the members of an organisation / union / association
Which brings me to the word.. Association.
It is can be defined as " group: a group of people or organizations joined together for a purpose. form an association to represent dairy farmers
ok it says dairy farmers as the example but replace with turf workers
Actions speak a lot larger than words, so when are you going to do something rather than talk about it.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Hi Tony
I would like to know your ideas and suggestions on the future of the turf industry ? As well as many others.
I am prepared to sit around a table and help put together a way forward based on the concensus of the groundsmens opinions
I wonder how many others are willing to help the industry that gave them something ?
Tonybolton, I believe it's time we all done something rather than talking! don't you? Ian Mac
1 Nov 2009 by Poa7
Call me an idealist if you like........but!
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone (PC, IOG, STRI etc) simply decided to work together?
Not only would this help the guy's on the ground but it would make everyone's life easier and improve the INDUSTRY tenfold, and it's the INDUSTRY that this is all supposed to be about isn't it?
Part of the trouble here, irrespective of what we are posting, is the resistance of certain parties to talk....
Come on IOG et al., we all know you are reading this, get over yourselves, there is a need, time for ACTION
1 Nov 2009 by Leeboy
This thread is now 2 weeks and 130-odd comments old, and no one is any better off, and from what some people are saying it is just too long winded and confusing to follow any more-any chance of an actual progress update, or is none actually being made?
People sat around a table talking and going no where because actually there is no where to go.
Hi Vic, it's a shame you feel we have nothing to gain. Unless we can change how we are, we will "Always" have what we've got! Regards, Ian
The postman want to talk, Royal mail say they want to talk, but only to give our good old posty less.
What would the industry do for us if we talk followed by action ?
I like the idea of unions that have some power and bite, many pay masters hate them.
So what is the ideal ? How will we ever progress and progress to what ?
Hi Ian, with the greatest of respect I don't actually want change. I was offered conditions when I first came into this industry, those conditions I alone chose to take. Now due to redundancy I have ended up in a different place which is not so good, however I still choose not to go for the attractive package on offer with a certain garden company because I have a passion for my work and choose to stay put.
What would change really offer the guys on the ground during these difficult times when labour is easily replaced?
Kind regards, Vic.
And so be it Vic. Good luck to you Sir. And my kindest regards to you. Ian
1 Nov 2009 by vid
If you dont want change Vic why do you keep posting on a thread that starts off saying it wants change but how do you go about it. Surely if you are happy with your lot and can achieve what you want with what is available then your constant negative view is not relevant to people who do want something more and do want change. Nothing will change for you as you are not interested, so why would you want to try to influence something that quite obviously doesnt appeal to you.
Or perhaps deep down you are interested in what might be offered and what a body such as what we are talking about may improve even your circumstances. I really dont get your stance. Why should we do nothing just because your assessment is nothing will change, I'm keen and so are quite a few other people and I think the conversation at the moment takes on new ideas and discards others as they are disproved or seen unworkable. Thats surely why we have forums like this. Actions on this should not be entered into lightly and should be the result of informed and wise debate.
Sorry vid, I thought it started off with the future of the industry.
"Why do I post?" Because I don't get what people are trying to achieve and no, I have no interest in what can be achieved.
I thought forums like this were so people could gain all information, not just that which suits them.
I'm out of this.
1 Nov 2009 by vid
I'm sorry too Vic I certainly dont want you to think that your opinion is not valued by me , it most certainly is - I just dont understand your intent by constantly throwing in the negatives. I think it is despair at the status quo that inspires any of us to post this intensely, so please accept my apology if I have upset you
Vid
1 Nov 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 1 Nov 2009
A long way back in this thread it was asked why would a young person want to join the industry.
That is what is hoped to be achieved.
To have a young person about to leave school think that they would like to become a Groundsman / Turf Manager rather than another trade or profession.
By trying to correct the mistakes of the past we will offer a future career path that is exciting and beneficial to all within the turf industry.
1 Nov 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 1 Nov 2009
The Posties are in an union but it doesnt make them any higher up the career appeal ladder than any other industry for a school leaver...
There are 2 fundamental issues being discussed here, one is being lost and one is being recycled, repeated, reposted from other threads and identical posts on the recently deceased, a few banging on the union drum, and basically a massive turn off to a vast number of PC users, just like it was for the IGA site.... ,....
The other is about the image, future, representation and influence on the what lies ahead and I thought about an attempt to harness the 'power' of the the thousands of people who live, breath, sweat, cry and love every minute of that bit of surface someone plays sport on.
Throw your energies into the 'union' route and a good few groundies and greenkeepers will be better off, when the unfortunate situation occurrs, the GMB will have swelled its numbers nicely, all that lovely subs money from a new source, but how will sport be any better and how will youngsters be encouraged?
Throw your weight behind an Association that is able to hold court in the presence of governing bodies, that is able to get the big 3 sat down and making a point to each other, alongside many others who have just as much to gain from the solidarity of Sports providers, that will have credibility to influence conditions, specs, environmental issues and make Sport a place to be, one where standards are improved by the image projected.
That gentlemen and ladies is the future, the rest is all about jibber jabber i'm afraid....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
"Bigga tried to ride us out of town ..."
The above is part of a comment on PMC's thread..
For those of us new or uninformed.. can someone point or summerise how the comment came about ? That is...what was said or done by BIGGA to the IGA to cause such ?
It can be helpful in going forward if many of the past issues are understood and then resolved.
Not wishing to raise old wounds..and so if someone "knows" and is not "guessing" it will be appreciated by all.
Two steps forward, one step back..but..still going forward.
Very well put Barry..very well put.
My thoughts are with the second way to throw..."an association"
Just because a concept (IGA) failed it, doesn't necessarily mean that the idea was wrong.
Going to the table means forgetting the past. I was at the coal face Peter and have already forgotten. Regards, Ian
Having just waded through this thread I will try to keep this succinct!
Core problem; two factions divided on one common ground, namely turf. Each too weak in both numbers and revenue to support a large overhead, while trying to make a difference in their industry. Both, as has been correctly diagnosed, lacking in managerial commercial ability or stature to be truly representative on the sports industry stage.
They have both been at the meeting table and left empty handed, in fact have probably damaged their credibility with their membership and with any of those likely to take up membership.
Neither has an industry leading magazine as the oracle for their representation.
Both are funded and reliant on funding from bodies outside of their membership, thus have one arm up their backs all the time.
Both have an industry show, which is one show too many, and as such both rely heavily on the trade, which further dilutes independent thinking.
So what to do?
Answer: If the desire to unify is really there force your respective organisations to call in a consultancy to find the common ground, (if there is indeed one at all), rationalise the two bodies, making them leaner and more productive for the benefit of their membership. Move away from management by badge and blazer and promote pro-active involvement. Promote the new front of the industry to educational, sporting and industry related bodies ensuring the deserved level of kudos and gravitas Become less divisive and more unified in you thinking.
Alternatively just carry on and take the decisions that have been made on your behalf by your respective representatives.
Succinct and very much so Kevin. over 150 posts with many thoughts, ideas etc. Yours sums up the situation well.
And offers a way forward.
I agree totally with all of your comments.
3 Nov 2009 by donals
I agree totally with Kevin.
But lets stop messing about and talking any more waffle about going through protocol in the organisations!
Just get the trade companies together and create a pitchcare trade show!
Base in it Birmingham Dave! best location all round
17 Nov 2009 by Poa7
Typically, a chance appears for people to state their opinion and effect change and the thread goes dead?? It's a bit like organising a training session or small 'show'. Lots of interest and promises of support, little action!
What is happening with this? Has a meeting been arranged, is the voice and theme of this thread destined to hell?
Come guy's, don't let it die, keep up the pressure...........
17 Nov 2009 by vid
I dont think its been dropped Poa - just pending behind the scenes wrangling. Unfortunately it takes time and care to get things going and a move in the wrong direction will cause another abrupt halt like the IGA. I am certainly still pushing and I want to start talking to interested groups about the plight of 'turf operatives' (surely somebody can come up with a better generic term!!). If people start the ball rolling in the right direction it will be all the easier to tie up into a package when the time comes
Bigga, IOG or PC?
For me the question might as well be Petrol, Diesiel or Gas?
Each has its merits and its negative aspects and, more importantly, they each co-exist in their industry. Why try to replace them with something new and shiney?
The nearest you are going to get is the petrol/electricty combo, if Pc is the petrol, you just need to develop the electricty aspect.
Best Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
17 Nov 2009 by vid
Steve - Hi - perhaps we are trying to develop a solar powered vehicle and none of the above fuels - no matter how good they are in their respective engines are what we are looking for and none of them can be mixed or improved to run our vehicle. They could all though run as a secondary power system. Good analogy thanks.
What myself, Peter Leroy and quite a few others are saying is that we think we need a different approach to how we represent ourselves. Put away the thoughts of unionisation as we know it, thats not what we are trying to do. Put away blazers and chains and titles of office, thats not the point either. We purely want to improve the Groundsman's /greenkeepers/landscapers/ gardeners etc lot. There is no way we receive the respect from the public we deserve, there is no way the public understands what we do and there is no way that we receive a fair wage for a fair days work. None of the magazines or organisations provide representation outside of their respective niche audiences yet - two of the biggest are too stupid to get together. PC I know is trying to find a way forward.
This is not about the services and education that these different organisations provide, its not about how good they are at informing us about the trade. It is about how we feel about ourselves as turf keepers and where we should rightly fit in a skilled workforce. Neither BIGGA or the IOG have shown any interest whatsoever in this conversation so far, and I have given up on them as they are too busy protecting their own little empires (in the scheme of things very little). We need better than them and absolutely 'NO' I will not accept that they are good enough for me.
I still have faith in Dave and his team and he is of a very similar opinion, however his time is restricted by the business he runs as is mine and these things take time to flourish.
With you Phil, all talk and nothing comes of it, I couldn't do anything to change things and wouldn't pretend to, so why others get so carried away with themselves and can't/won't do anything about it anyway I don't know.
17 Nov 2009 by vid
Thanks Lee, obviously happy with your lot and thanks for informing me how little I do - thanks a lot. I assume it takes you just a couple of hours to get your pitch ready - how would I know any different after all its just cutting grass and bunging a line on
Yes I am happy with my lot, I couldnt give a flying fig about which organisation does what, at the the end of the day they are all businesses and will do what they need to to make the most money they can, if they choose to have a go at each other thats up to them, but it doesnt directly effect me one way or the other, I managed for over 12 years in my job without belonging to any of these organisations, and whilst I will continue to be a member of them and use their services I wont get carried away with ideas that seemingly wont or cant be actioned by those who seem happy to just talk about it all.
Everyone keeps saying Dave this and Dave that, at what point did he say on here he wants to take any of it on?All I can see is that he has proposed a single trade show based on the questionnaire sent out, so what exactly you are all expecting of him I dont know.
I am fortunate in the job I have, but I have got to to this point on the whole with very little, and in some cases no help from any of the organisations mentioned.
17 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 17 Nov 2009
At the end of the day Lee, you are in a fortunate position at the top of the game. I have chosen to run my own business and its potential could earn me a good living. However my concern and the concern of a lot of others is not about myself and how self satisfied I am with my good fortune, its about those that are less fortunate and less able to speak for themselves.
Perhaps for you and others being underpaid is ok so long as you get a pat on the back, a piece of paper saying well done and a football shirt with your name on it. Personally however I see those working in our industry for a lot less than they should and I and a few others would like to change that by getting out, for free if I have to, and talk our great industry up.
To be honest Lee, I dont want to alenate you as it is very counter productive. But your post and its assumption of inaction has really upset me.
I am quite happy to volunteer my help to help those less well off than myself and up to now I thought thats where you were as well. I obviously read you wrong
17 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 17 Nov 2009
And BTW I am not expecting Dave to come up with all the answers which is why I am getting off my a*se and doing something about it. I have already acknowledged that he is a busy man and cant spend time on everyones pet project. However I have bothered to talk to him and I know he agrees with most of what I am saying. I have offered my help, it may be of little use but I made the offer anyhow. What about you Lee or are you so much busier than the rest of us!!
17 Nov 2009 by Leeboy Last edited 17 Nov 2009
I do not disagree with helping others out, particularly at volunteer level. For three years I hepled to resurrect and run the local IOG branch with a few other willing people and it was clear to see they were glad of the interaction with various organisations/trade bodies etc, this was done voluntarily by all concerned in return for nothing more than 'giving something back'. I have also helped to judge the lower level Groundsman of the Year awards at volunteer level for the last 5 years and its seeing what these guys do with little or no resources that makes the job they do absolutely outstanding in my opinion.Last week, and as many groundsmen in stadiums do over the course of the year, I gave up a couple of hours of my time to show a group of students round the stadium facilities, again not for my benefit but for theirs
I am not underpaid in my position but recognise that a lot of others are. However my wage has been brought up to that level by my own work and also the help of my boss. Whilst organisations may recommend pay scales, they have no power whatsoever to implement them which makes them nothing more than a guide and worth little.
What you propose to do should be applauded, but looking from the outside, what exactly is being done? If there is anything being done then tell us.
And yes I am quite busy at the moment as well!
17 Nov 2009 by vid
Thats the point Lee - the intention is not to let this slip by yet again, but we are all busy and we are trying to get to the starting point. I havent got the time or the resources to do that so of course we look to people in the organisations and media. And they are saying wait a moment, What can I say, I am as frustrated as anyone else is - which is why I have boiled over a little tonight - however perhaps I am just a little more optimistic in something coming out of this so that I can channel my energies. I wont patronise you Lee by saying wait and see as I dont hold the cards and I'm not going to speak blindly on behalf of others.
I'm sorry if I had a bit of a go, however I feel passionate about this and perceived detractors wind me up easily - I need a pint...........or 3
Which is my point in a way, its better to come on here with a proposal of what to do so people can get their heads round it, it has been talked and talked and talked about too often now for most to even show an interest, hence why until a few hours ago this thread had died a death and in fairness for all the replies above, how many people are actually involved in the conversation-10,15 tops?
do people who watch or play sport, really care what skill, knowledge, and experience goes into providing the surface they use or watch sport on, or more importantly, who prepared it????
at the top end if the game the profile is being raised, which is good, but looking at the other end - at the number of volunteer groundsman local clubs have........... why - they cant afford a "proper" groundsman so a member volunteers to look after the surface , how can professional groundsman expect to raise their profile when a member looks after the local cricket club in his spare time??
How can they expect to raise their profile when the club turn round and say "old bob" used to look after the ground in his spare time, why do you want £X per year???
I appreciate that many clubs wouldnt exist without volunteers and for that they should be applauded, but how many volunteer barristers, lawyers, doctors, architects (greenkeepers?????) and other high profile jobs exist??
Is the industry being diluted with the large number of local clubs? should these clubs merge, raise standards in the surface ( not saying they are poor now) pool there resources and raise their own profile, and that of the club and its employees?
My club plays in the third division of the Lincolnshire Cricket League - that's four divisions below ECB prem. For the last two years we've been marked the best ground in the five division league by the umpires, this year coming first and second (a guest team from Div 4 use the ground). Our Sunday team was awarded the "Fair Play" award this year, so we can't be a nasty club. Our membership is a tenner and our match fees £6.
How many players have asked to join this cheap, friendly club playing on a good surface from higher level clubs with grounds marked much lower? A big fat ZERO.
Wake up and smell the coffee guys. Amateur players want to play in the highest league more than they want top level surfaces. So stop knocking volunteer groundsmen.
If the customers don't care much about the pitch, they won't pay the wages. Wages have to reflect the value of the job to the paying customer - and I'm sorry but at amateur sport level the groundsman is not as highly valued as we would like. Telling the amateur player how good the groundsman is won't make any difference.
The ciderman rolls
17 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 17 Nov 2009
Nobody here is knocking the volunteer, how can we. What happens when there are no volunteers however. I f the profile of the work done is raised and it is perceived as worthwhile perhaps a few more may be found.
Why do so many people come on here and say nothing will change so give up. Is that it guys, have you so little pride that you dont want anything to happen, do you not want more media interest, do you not want player respect for what you do - I really dont get it. Its like saying I'm happy to be spat at - I know my place. No wonder we are taken advantage of, no wonder we are taken for granted. I think all us groundsmen should start wearing caps again so that we can tip them to everyone in deference to our lowly position. I'm really fed up with the attitude but it seems I'm alone. I can tell you it really knocks the wind out of my sails!
Perhaps thats it then you dont want me to try to do anything, lets just stick by the same old, same old. I'll just make my money, live my life and not concern myself - ok?
Oh Vid, where were you when we needed your likes? the IGA, the Industry! needed this calibre of attitude, where were you when we needed this passion. If only? Respectfully, Ian.
“Freedom” Bobby Bruce- Remix, George Michael
interest in this the thread has decreased due to the fact that as usual with this topic it goes round in circles with out many conclusions
there are conscientious people within this thread who can make a difference and take action. Why don’t you retire this thread and begin to ask readers what is required in a new thread.outline what is required/wanted. from there arrange a meet ( poss Harrogate) where clear objectives can be discussed and invite all the relevant parties. Decide on something collectively to aim at
The perception/image of grass people is not at the required standard but us grass people have to take the responsibility for that and therefore take the responsibility to change the Turf managers credibility.
If changes are required (it appears there are wanted), then don’t wait for someone else to make the changes for you
Every individual can progress their work/status and therefore the industry
Enjoy the day
I am off to set fire to my underpants
Chris
An example of people taking action is the development of the new Association of School Grounds Professionals. I have nothing to do with this venture but cannot be impressed by the fact that someone has taken an issue they feel passionately about and got something going. Early days yet, and some may object to the involvement of the IOG, and others to the fact that yet another small association is being formed but, hey, it is happening.
I agree with Parken in that proposals for action are now required. Vid? Peter Leroy? You guys have put yourselves out there, shouted about your passion for change and put your reputations on the line. But people now need to see something happen.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
Thanks Andy, I hope this will be the start of something big. I have read with interest this thread and it shows the difficulties of a one size fits all organisation and having a few in such a diverse profession is not a problem as long as they have similar goals. Lets look forward and say to everyone we provide great pitches for everyone to enjoy and with 2112 we have a great oppurtunity to show our true value. So lets forget the arguments and move forward with everyone it can be done.
Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!
18 Nov 2009 by vid
Andy - unfortunately I am struggling financially with things at the moment and have to be completely involved with keeping business going - seeing as I am an integral part of the construction of the facilities I get very little time that I can rely on - for instance at the moment the ground is to wet for us to get out there but the moment it dries sufficiently I will be out of touch again most of the time. This does not mean that I am not passionate about this and will help whenever and wherever I can to bring up the profile of us groundsmen, its why I have to rely on our organisations at the present. I am being told that something is going to come out of this and myself and the likes of Peter Leroy Ian Mac et al are just waiting in the wings to leap in as soon as there is an opening. We all have so far contibuted for free and will continue to do so whilst it is necessary. I have no agenda, no history, no alliances just years of abuse and put downs for me and my associates that have got me to this state of passion for what I believe in.
I am not concerned with existing structures - none of them seem to want to take the industry as a whole - and that is what we need. I want to see as a start some sort of independant support and advice group that, to start with, could be predominantly volunteer run and take it from there. Once it is in place its direction and success will find its own course.
I hope that by being passionate and keeping the channels open I might help get the ball rolling. With the negative feeds that keep cropping up its an uphill struggle I can tell you, especially when I am under so much pressure of work. This is why I have to rely on others, I cant take it on myself as my family dont like tents!! Give it a while yet and lets see what happens - I think a meeting of interested parties is imminent
Well said Vid and believe me, I know where you are coming from. And I think this where a lot of the lack of response comes from. It is the same with the other Associations. It is not from a lack of people wanting to see change or get involved, just that we all need to put our families and jobs first.
The world is very different place from when we had no representation. I was fortunate enough to meet Bill Bowles, the founder of the IOG, before he passed away in the late 1980's. Bill was Head Groundsmen at Eaton School in the 1930's when he started the IOG with the aim to provide education to groundsmen. This was also in the era of the early days of the The Board of Greenkeeping Research, forerunner of the STRI, who provided training for golf greenkeepers. Stan said that all he wanted was to know how to prepare his pitches better but there was nothing for groundsmen to learn, they couldn't access learning from books due to the social standing of those in the trade. The IOG and the Board of Greenkeeping were the only organisations who delivered training to our trade for many years until the advent of college courses. They were very well supported as this was all there was for those wanting to know more about the job and progress in their career.
Since then education has mushroomed with an abundance of college courses and training, government subsidised, and freely available. Perhaps we do not appreciate what we have.
On the flip side, the job is getting more intense due to higher expectations and demands from players and users of facilities and the associated higher costs. Associations based on voluntary input may have had their day but I hope we do not lose the thirst for knowledge our forebears had.
Andy Turnbull
18 Nov 2009 by vid
Going back a little way to what Lee said and to answer a bit of a post by Poa. I am well aware that the total number of contributors to this thread is probably no more than 30 and there are no more than about 300 views since this thread reopened, and the majority of these are people who post regularly anyway. I am, I hope, capable of reasonable thought, so I am aware that only a handful of people ar e reading this thread, certainly less than 1% of the total PC membership. So Lee - I am listening!!
It does therefore logically lead on to the fact that the conversation has to break out to a wider audience - Laurence is already on my back but posting messages is a whole lot easier on my time than preparing an article that will have the desired effect!! perhaps, however if it gets into the magazine proper we will better be able to guage support. I will see if I can cowrite something.
vid if you have something to add then why not add it. right that article.
18 Nov 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 18 Nov 2009
This long and winding thread has opened a way forward for those who have the wish to set in place steady growth and professionalism to an industry that has served many very well.
The time has come to collate all of the thoughts, ideas, suggestions and do something with them.
At the same time, even though there is negativity from some, their thoughts are to be included as they provide suggestions as to where the pitfalls may lay.
PC has allowed this thread to continue unedited and the editorial staff are to be commended.
It is surely time for something to be made to happen ?
The election for board members of the IOG is coming up. Nominate is just one way to make a difference.
As mentioned, a published article will take the grassroots opinions out into the public forum. Such an article will be read widely by the industry.
A round table discussion including those who have the time, experience and ability to speak for all branches of the turf industry is necessary.
For those who valiantly tried this on previous occasions (see IGA) your attempts were not in vain.
At the proposed meeting it would be almost mandatory to include those who began IGA so that those who were not privy to the setup are able to consider just where things went "pear-shape"
No single idea is possible and so there is a need to compile the thoughts of many to form one solid foundation.
I also believe that the meeting cannot be thought of as a single launch vehicle.
I believe the way forward is a multi-pronged launch.
Meeting, elections, articles, media exposure, government lobbying, industry lobbying, education etc.
A blitz if you will in the public forum.
Hi Peter, I'm sure I speak for all of the ex board of the IGA that if we may help in anyway? we will. Regards, Ian Mac
then why not just start up the iga again there seems to be much more interest now.
20 Nov 2009 by Dave
Hi chaps,
We have been watching the thread with interest, it's only work commitments that have prevented an earlier interjection.
We have worked hard and continue to work hard on a resolution to this fragmented Industry. While we are certain that we won't get a 100% backing for whatever happens in the future, we are hopeful that we can carry the majority forward.
Please be assured that there is much discussion going on behind the scenes (there are many parties to bring together) and that when the right time is here, announcements will be forthcoming.
Cheers,
Dave
Right behind you Dave.
Timing is strategically fundamental in any infrastructure Dave. Your timing" is most Timely? Bath has proclaimed that he is right behind you! but, then again, so are most of us. Commitment should never be tested "cautiously" so let's box it off.
Ian.
Ben when at first you fail; give up! no sense in being bloody foolish about it?
Ian
20 Nov 2009 by Poa7
That's great news! Glad it has not all been for nothing. Keep chipping away :)
Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms. Che Guevara
IGA may have passed away but other ways are still possible
Many who contribute to this thread, read, ponder or pontificate will stand beside you young Dave.
If help is sought I am there.
To the barricades yea sons of umm turf management.
21 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 21 Nov 2009
Doesn't Peter Brittons article - 'Old whats his name' - just prove the point we have been making. If its that bad in golf imagine what its like in sportsgrounds.
I should imagine rather than the 15% of secretaries not knowing the name of the head greenkeeper it would be more like 95% of players, yet most of them will know who the secretary is.
Come on lets get this profile raised!
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