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Also does the rest of soil look like its of suitable quality for a good bowling??
See the bowling green diaries on the front of the site , they will guide you through the appropriate work required.
Thanks for reply Cranfield,
how many times and to what dept would we need to scarify to remove the thatch?
Hi Bowler man read this link http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/controlling-thatch.html
there are other articles on thatch , search the site using the search engine.
laurence
Hi Bowler
It looks to be about a 30 mm thatch layer , which works about to be around 45 cubic meters of thatch on your green. which will not disappear by bowling season.
It is also very late in the season to take on any drastic work required .
You would need to set a scarifier to the depth of the thatch , hence you may need to get someone in to achieve this goal at 30 mm . two passes at full depth with blades set at 20 mm apart with 2 mm blades you would only get out 20 %, so your green keepers work is cut out .
There are products on the market that will assist you , but they will need lots of aeration, and also you would need to look at the rest of your treatments applied to the green.
So my best advice is to get the spiker out and get as many holes in the surface as you can . it is out of season so no bowler complaints .
Mark
Thanks for the reply has 2 mow.
How many years would it take for 30mil of thatch to build up.
Is it possible to get the green playing well for next season with this level of thatch in it?
What tines should I suggest they use to spike with?
Solid/Pencil etc.??
Also sent you a PM has 2 mow.
23 Oct 2009 by AB
How about sitting down with your groundsman and talking to HIM about what your perceived problems are and how he is planning on tackling them, within the budget the club allows?
Maybe even consider getting in a green advisor to give an impartial opinion once he has seen the whole picture.
AB.
Thanks for comment.
We will talk to the groundsman about the way forward however I need to increase my knowledge for fear of being mislead or the wool being pulled over our eyes.
The green is currently being hollow tined.
What is the rationale for this?
Is it purely for soil exchange?
or is it to improve drainage if you topdressed with sand?
or is it just an outdated way of removing thatch?
thanks
24 Oct 2009 by panch
Hollow tining is done to aerate the green allowing air to get to the root system and keep it healthy. It is also done to decompact the green after the season. Hollow tining can be used for the three processes you suggest but its primary tasks are aeration and decompaction.Also try the following link, I know its croquet not bowls but there situation seems pretty similar to yours.
http://www.oxfordcroquet.com/care/murdoch/index.asp
Hollow tining is a very good way of removing thatch over a period of time. Roughly 6% is removed when tined at 2 X 2 spacing, however nearly 20% is removed by scarifying. It is very good for soil exchange and will help drainage up to a point. It however pretty poor at relieving compaction as the thickness of the wall of the tine displaces the soil sideways, thus compacting it. Regular solid, slit or pencil tines are best for aeration along with sarrel rolling and a verti drain style machine for decompaction.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
this is a ambush and some greenkeeper the victim
24 Oct 2009 by panch
Chris please explain to me why the thickness of a hollow tine wall is going to cause more compaction than a solid tine surely the removal of a small amount as you say 6% is going to relieve more than thrusting a solid tine of equal diameter into the green. Also is the verti drain really any good for removal of surface compaction causde by a seasons foot traffic.
Panch.
A solid tine is usually much thinner than a hollow tine and there is a very slight lifting of the soil around the hole. The core removed with a hollow tine is smaller diameter than the hole meade by the tine so the difference between the two is the amout that has been pushed sideways. A I said, roughly 6% is removed to a depth of 100mm with new tines. Expecting the water from another 94% to go down the same holes is a little optomistic. Far better to regularily spike by other means to keep the water moving off of the surface. To be honest I think regular slitting and sarrel rolling are the best way to keep on top of upper layer compaction. The verti drain, provided used in the right conditions, lifts the whole ground fracturing it right up to the surface.
I know others will have there views on this but this has been my experience over the last 40 years.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
With AB & ben ryan.
24 Oct 2009 by mwood
Vic,
Any greenkeeper that allows 30mm of thatch to build up on a bowling green shouldnt be looking after that green again.
It is probably now too late to scarify that amount of thatch out and renovate for next season, unless you are in the 'warm' south.
mwood,
Take your point completely and agree, however, what do we know of the circumstances? Do we know what finances are available, is the greenie paid, does the club have the kit?
All I know is that most bowlers on my green seem to know more about looking after it than I.
On a bowls site a bowler recently went on and under a thread titled "the best green you have played on" mentioned ours, then a few weeks later went on another thread to say the same green had two good hands and two poor hands.
I am based in the warm South and there is no way I would consider heavy scarification this late as the chance of getting a £300 bag of seed to germinate would be too much of a risk.
Call me an old git but I tend to support the groundsman/greenkeeper until proved wrong.
This is not an ambush.
I'm not trying to name and shame.
Just want to increase my own knowledge on the subject.
The club have resources and the greenie has very good work conditions.
How many years would it take for 30mm of thatch to build up?
How basic an error is it to let this happen?
Is the Koro an option for next year?
Has anyone every done this?
I am no bowling green expert, but a solution MAYBE to aerate, aerate and then aerate some more, and then apply a "thatch eater" next spring?
Anyone any thoughts?
thanks for your comment Paul.
how much of an improvement would you say this would achieve?
this sounds like the only option this late in the season.
25 Oct 2009 by Nigel.S Last edited 25 Oct 2009
I have found this an interesting post, and it would be good to get the greenkeepers perpective.
Until five years ago I and my team of three, use to look after a bowls green in our village, and had done so from the laying of the green, but other contracts came our way and we were not able to spend the time on the green , so in fact not keeping to our contract with the club.
The members took the green on themselves and this has worked well, except most of the vollenteers are in there late sixities / early seventies and seam only meet for mayor green maintance once a week, hence four weeks along the line they have not even put any seed down!
They are however very keen, but really this work should be all tied up in a week, to be of any benifit.
Nigel
The key to thatch control is aerate, aerate, and yes more aeration.... but in the short term..
Well I have never used a thatch eater, but I am sure that this is the way forward. The use of iron, which will kill a number of beneficial soil microbes, then beating the grass hard with a scarifier, is surely not good practice on any grass sward, let alone fine turf? We are now starting to understand how the soil micro-biology works, and can use this knowledge to great effect. You will need to research suppliers, maybe Pitchcare, Symbio, Soil Harmony?? And get their suggestions / recommendations.
But after applying the Thatch Eater next spring, make sure that you stick to a strict policy of aeration, using as many different methods as possible, and tailor you fertiliser so that you do not build up the thatch again.
25 Oct 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 25 Oct 2009
The choices are 'patience' or 'instant re-action'.
For whatever reason 30mm of thatch has built up, this could be for any number of causes or accumulation of many, this could be due to too much water natural or thru the pipe, too much food or too much fuss when work that should be done creates the situation when it suddenly isn't, too little aeration, dressing, know how, time and money to name a few... only those with an open mind and knowledge of the green and the management regime will actually deduce why... but is it important... to Mal and the greenkeeper maybe.. but only if done honestly..
What to do comes into 2 'veins', time is fortunately against a unsensible or uneconomical reaction now so first is the manage what you have route. The professional or experienced on here have or will be able to provide far more detail than I can.
Coring will take a small percentage out and by bashing the green over a couple of years you may reduce the thatch IF you have a full maintenance regime ongoing through the year to back.
The heavy scarifiers such as the Koro, Sisis and Gradens would hammer the thatch out taking a much higher percentage but it is getting late for heavy scarify/dress/oseed unless you can get something sorted asap while ground temps are around long enough for recovery and germination.
Any organic 'attack' to chew back will need the right environment for the bugs to work, more aeration, no fungicides.
The whole management regime for the entire year/s must reflect the aims of thatch removal/reduction adjusting through the seasons because something like play or looks becomes a political priority can soon negate any signs of improvement.
It is a long steady process ............
Removing the surface by Koro or sodcutter is drastic and not cheap, my prefered method as I am a contractor who doesn't do maintenance lol, but whilst removing the thatch accumulation, a new set of maintenance issues will arise in establishing a new sward, which can, if done wrong or the same circumstances creating this scenario continue, have 30mm of thatch back in the time it takes to reduce by coring anyway...
Mal, you will learn much by reading historicals on thatch on here, but be aware what works for some is not so good for others due to location, soil type, budget, management etc.
When the chosen route is picked experience and reputation is all if you use outside help to ensure that the full improvement is gained.
But if the reasons that the thatch built up is not adjusted accordingly then it will all be a waste of time.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
For what it's worth, I applaud Bowler Mal for coming on here and asking for help and advice. I am disappointed by the attitude of a few others.
Why should groundsmen be immune from challenge from their employers? How can members of the "industry" call themselves professional if they resent it when the people who pay them express an opinion about the quality of service provided - that so apparently in this case has been substandard? And worse still, criticise that paying customer for seaking knowledge before storming in unprepared. Maybe that if those who know bowls could explain to Mal what work is needed to maintain a top quality surface, then Mal may realise that the club has not sufficiently supported the groundsman?
The "turf care industry" is a service industry. Service providers stand or fall by the quality of service provided. If groundsmen don't like that, then they're in for a tough career. As an unpaid volunteer, the year I fail to provide good surfaces is the year I deserve to be replaced. ANYONE in my club, or ANY visitor is welcome to provide feedback and I will listen and think about what they say. I will then try to imporve, or choose to ignore their comment. I will not tell a player that he has no right to comment - even if he knows nothing.
No one has yet answered the time question. I can't see it being less than 5 years and close study of the photo suggests about 15 bands to me - so my guess is 15 years.
The ciderman rolls
Thanks for all comments.
I'll show this thread to the other club members and we will talk to the greenkeeper and try get in a consultant to move the thing forward.
p.s. more people should upload photos onto the forums. Its really interesting to see what other people have.
Cheers.
jon, given your background you should be able to prescribe something for all that pent up aggresion. 
Vic - it's bubbling away in the garage right now but won't be ready til Christmas. 66 gallons brewing and another 12 or 18 to make.
I get wound up - as you saw - by people who reject any possibility that those who pay their wages are entitled to an opinion on the job done for them.
The ciderman rolls
Bowler mal
I hope that you work with the green keeper , all can be put right with time . there are several things that can be looked at . And introduce him to pitchcare
With something like thatch eater it will depend on the type of thatch that you have, poa thatch will decay quicker that fescue /bent thatch .
Look at using something like the sand injector from Graden, with the use of something like a thatch eater mixed into the dressing applied into the surface . And lots of aeration.
May be look at getting early season matches to be played away, to give yourself a window of work for next season.
Mark
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