26 Oct 2009 by phil hargreaves
,i look after a bowling green which i think has take all , i have been looking after greens for 25yrs and never seen any thing like it before, i have sprayed with 3 different fungacides,all to no affect. It has been 3 to 4mts, i have spiked it and re-seeded bare areas. Has anybody any advice.
Hi Phil,
I have experienced Take all patch on a few occassions at my last place of employment back on new construction USGA spec golf greens so I'm sure I can help.
But before I do this, can I ask if you are based in Preston, Lancashire? As I knew someone of the same name who was in the same line of work as yourself.
If your not it doesn't matter as I'd be happy to share my experiences with yourself and the other Pitchcare readers.
Best Regards
Dave in Paris
Learning is there for every man
26 Oct 2009 by phil hargreaves
Yes iam based in preston, and they do say it is common on usga greens, but this green is prob. 25yrs old and not usga. The reps who have looked at say,will just have to let it take it own course and let it grow itself out, not ideal this time of year. Were do i know u from Dave, P.g.c.
26 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 26 Oct 2009
Well its a small world Mr Hargreaves!!!
Hope you are very well!!
Yes you do know me from PGC.
Is there any chance you can send me an email as it would be good to catch up? Just mark it hello and I'll send you a reply.
My address is David.edmondson3@gmail.com
Speak soon
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Hi Phil,
It is not unknown for take-all to invade established turf and was doing so long before USGA was being built.
Some pic's would soon confirm take-all. The best way to I.D is what species of grass are being taken out. As a distinquishing feature can be healthy poa annua or fescue plants growing inside the bare patches.
The fungicide Heritage will control Take-all, although it will have limited or no effect on the patches that are already visible, since the disease patches evident now would have been the result of last autumn/winter attack, which become evident following dry summer. So if you spray heritage now, you should not get fresh incidence next summer.
Its interesting, the incidence of Take-all and Fairyring has been much high this year and I can only assume this is down to the wierd weather this summer?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
27 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 27 Oct 2009
Hi Phil and Ken,
Phil, like Ken has stated a digital photo on here would be great for the purpose of disease identification, if positively identified as TAP it would be great for other users to see as some may have not come across the turfgrass disease before. It is necessary that an correct identification takes place first as you could be throwing good money at something that is totally different than originally thought.
New USGA green constructions, 25 year old constructions, 100 yrs old constructions can any form of outbreak if conditions are correct for the pathogen to flourish, so yes I believe it is possible. I think identifying what grass species this is hitting is very important as well, like Ken quite correctly quotes.
Once identified correctly we can look at the disease triangle which looks at 3 points, this includes: 1.)Host species(grass species).....2.)Pathogen (disease causing agent)......3.)Environmental conditions and look if all these things are in place for such an out break of TAP.
The next step like in any disease management is to look at breaking this triangle for the future disease control on your site. We can talk about this later in the post and look at reasons why you may be getting such an occurrence and try and eliminate certain factors for next year.
I believe Heritage is the only fungicide labeled for TAP control in the UK, we had some good results at PGC from using this fungicide when used preventatively, we put this down around the back end of June as our flare ups were usually in the months of July and August. There were other contributing factors on that site but this fungicide helped us an awful lot, I believe.
I'd also like to add that I have seen TAP attack hit greens and not give the normal circle like appearance, it really depends on the percentages of host species in ones site.
DE
Learning is there for every man
27 Oct 2009 by phil hargreaves
Hi, Ken,Dave
Thanks for your replys, i will try and get some photos posted, there does seem to b poa annua in the middle, it does seem to improve at times and then another circle seems to form around existing disease.
cheers dave i will send u my email
Hi Phil,
To help paint a picture as sometimes it can be even hard diagnosing from a photo on here, would it be possible to do a couple of little tests for me next time you are on site?
These are as follows:
1. I dont know what grass species you are working with but can you have a look if there is any healthy living Fescue within the patches that has not been hit by the disease.....if there is no fescue what so ever on the green, it really doesnt matter about doing this...but it is worth a look anyway.
2. Can you take a few samples with maybe a soil auger or knife and have a look at the soil underneath? Whats that like is it wet or powdery dry, does anything stand out?
3. With the sample(s) you have taken will you have a quick smell of them? Im interested to know if it smells like normal soil or does it have a mushroomy kind of fragrance to it?
4. Can you break up one of the samples and have a look at what the roots are like, is there any discolouration or blackening of the roots, how are they looking long or short?
5. Whats the green like to walk on after it has rained, does it get soft or is it firm, Does the green dry out a bit in warmer temperatures?
5. I know you are going to stick some pics on but just in case they are hard to see on here can you tell me if there is any discolouration around the rings? they maybe slightly orange or green or are the patches the same colour right across?
A bit to do I know but really the more information the better.
Are you around at home at Crimbo......it would be great to catch up for a beer or 2!!
Best regards
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Hi Dave,
Wow..... that's a tall order you have given Phil, and I am not sure where you are going with your questions? Since you talk about the disease triangle, which is fine if this particular pathogen occurred within a matter of a few weeks, but to confirm climatic conditions that favour TAP months prior is a tall order. The effects of Take-all takes many months, and depending on whether a dry summer or not, the severity of damage to the sward is so variable! Your second post and series of questions appears to be asking questions that lean toward 'thatch-collapse' (Superficial Fairy-ring)?
I am interested and look forward in which direction you take this.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
27 Oct 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 27 Oct 2009
Good evening Ken,
Hope you are very well.
The reason I spoke about TAP, disease triangle etc is that I was assuming this is TAP and got typing away and that was my trail of thought at that moment.....but.....after re reading the initial post once again tonight it got me thinking a little on whether I was right to assume that take all patch was the definitive outcome without looking at ALL the outcomes possible, as I have very little information to go on.
Now having dealt with TAP at my previous place of employment, I was thinking along the lines of environmental factors that could influence disease development and enhance the spread of TAP on the particular site...now what I would refer to as environmental factors would be the weather conditions, soil conditions (alkalinity, or acidity)poor physical conditions, drought, stress, shade, salt levels etc.
The term often used in the disease triangle "Environmental factors" is a bit bland in my honest opinion.....it would be better described as "a favourable environment for disease development" I think personally, this could be a wide array of factors.
I was thinking about looking at all factors and trying to link it to Phils situation and try to take something out of the equation.
At my former place of employment we put our take all outbreaks down to the high perc rates of the new soils hence they dried out quickly, but also after testing our irrigation water we found out it had a sky high Ph......maybe this was a factor.....it was funny how we never got any more outbreaks after the acid injection system was put in......maybe it was that, maybe it was site specific, or maybe it was down to spraying manganese on a weekly basis through the summer periods, maybe it was even down to weather conditions? I dont know what it was but we took something out of the equation that led to no more take all outbreaks as we were building new greens over a period of 5 years.
Now like I say after reading the initial post once again Phil states he thinks it could be take all patch, my second series of questions were just trying to confirm his thoughts, maybe I rushed in a little with my first post assuming it was TAP without being 100% sure.
From the 5 questions I have asked, I have looked at 3 different turf diseases/disorders which it could be without seeing the pictures. How often do you see pics loaded up on here and think what is that? as quality sometimes isnt great.
As I know Phil pretty well I wouldnt want to see him throwing valuable time and money at something without looking at it from all angles and reviewing all possibilities.
I hope that makes my trail of thought a little clearer.
All the best
Dave
Learning is there for every man
I gotcha Dave,
It is interesting what you say about your new USGA greens regarding the sky-high pH. A new 36 hole build I worked on in the 80's, the rootzone had a low pH (4.5) so we added dolomitic limestone. We had Take-all come in within 18 months...... maybe this was associated with the hih pH added?
It has been suggested that Take-all easily invades new USGA rootzones due to the predominance of inert maertial (sand) and therefore lack antagonistic soil organisms that can naturally combat aganist its invasion.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
If it is Take All, Ammonia Sulpahte will take care of it. It lowers the ph and increases the fertility. I've cured it with a couple of applications two weeks apart at .12lbsN/1000sqft. My ph is around 6 so I'm not sure if some other ph factors (ie a prior fertilizer application or something raised it further causing it to appear).
From using the different stroblin fungicides, Heritage is the best on it IMO and since I started the full preventative program last year I haven't seen it, although the (crap) weather this year was condusive for it, however the preventative program is expensive.
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
best to leave it and allow it to build up resistance by itselve or so i was told
You could send a sample down to Kate Entwistle at the disease centre, at least you would actually know what disease you have.
Ken, one of the bowling greens that I manage had TAP three years ago and last year had serious fairy ring disease, we have improved the management of the green and I feel that the regular application of seaweed products have been of the most benifit, the green has been turned from the worst to the best that we have. (it is a new sand construction)
Of course the green may just have matured, unlike me!
Best Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
Take all is caused by a fungus Gaeumannomyces graminis that is a fairly weak pathogen, easily out competed for nutrient by most other soil fungi. it survives in higher pH conditions than most fungi. So if pH increases or is naturally high it does not have any competition and becomes the dominant fungi It lives in the root systems can stay dormant for years mostly attacks bent grasses and can occur in established greens if the pH rises and becomes more alkaline due to liming or applying nitrate based fertilisers in the summer.
If you do not want the expense of fungicides, reducing pH ammonium based fertilisers and feeding benficial fungi with humates and humic acid will help in the longer term next year. You can drench the infected area in beneficial fungi that out compete the pathogen. You can buy fungal inoculants, use compost teas or if the green is out of play and you can make good the surface next year you could spread some woody compost on the infected areas. Next year feed the good fungi and take all, fairy rings etc should eventually dissappear
Gaeumannomyces graminis is a warm weather fungi so if not dormant now it will probaly go dormant in the next week or so.
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