We have two firmly established organisations that between them have a "captive" audience of thousands, and provide most of the services I as a groundsman want.
I am currently investigating the IOG apprenticeship scheme and am very impressed with what I have learned thus far. A clear career path is I think something everyone in this industry is desperate for and the IOG is making tremendous strides towards making it available.
David's initial ideas when PC was first conceived were something along the lines of being the marketing/internet wing of the IOG.
I would suggest, although I'm sure many would disagree, that the IOG is a considerably more professionally run organisation than it was when PC hit the scene, just as PC has developed and grown from a small internet info centre in to a massive business being used by the world’s biggest suppliers of industry related materials and machinery.
The IOG needs to harness the power of the internet to advertise and inform as many people in the industry about what it can do for them, and PC has the means to provide that power……………but quite rightly at a cost.
The IOG can then build and continually develop the vital training structure that will guarantee that, from apprentice upwards everyone has been properly trained in every aspect of their trade and knows where they can go, how to get there and how much they can expect to earn on the way.
Pitchcare can play a vital role in supporting what surely we all agree is a vital step forward for the turf industry and make money whilst doing it.
Negotiations between BIGGA and the IOG broke down at the eleventh hour but at least they negotiated.
If Pitchcare and the Institute of Groundsmanship were to negotiate a business partnership along the lines mentioned in this post they would both benefit. But far more importantly, we the industry would benefit enormously from having an Institute that already works with all the top sports bodies having the worldwide established mouthpiece that is Pitchcare to spread the word.
In my mind there is only one way of having a voice loud enough to be heard where it matters, and that is for Pitchcare and The Institute of Groundsmanship to bury the hatchet and work together.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
I totally agree and support everything that Peter has said.
But i suppose there are a couple of matters.
1. Do the IOG have the manpower and enough foresight/ability to grasp the market that Pitchcare would create for it?
2. Is it possible for both parties to agree financial terms?
It will all come down to money at the end of the day
More than a couple of possible obstacles donals possibly more like the Grand National than a steeplechase, but the prize is so worth the effort I would say.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Money, the root of all evil.
But not necessarily so if used efficiently. Duplicate something at a cost doesnt make for efficiency in the current economic world ?
I totally agree with Peter when it comes to how IOG has developed over the years. A special interest group created for the benefit of the end user, those in the sports turf industry.
Both Pitchcare and IOG have a magazine. In the early days of PC I would suggest that the IOG magazine was established but staid and lacked interest. PC filled that void and did so very well to the stage where today the PC magazine is the information outlet of choice by many in and outside of the industry.
The cost of publishing has to be a financial strain on the IOG membership ? Logic tells me that the cost efficiency benefits of PC magazine becoming the outlet for IOG just makes sense.
As Peter points out, the negotiations between PC and IOG broke down at the eleventh hour, which means to me that both were interested in negotiation.
Perhaps to resolve the issue there could be a return to the eleventh hour and present the problem in negotiations in a different manner ? i.e. look outside the box for a resolution ?
No, I have not forgotten the other thread. I see this thread as internal resolution or picking out problems at this level without looking at the "bigger picture"
Fine tune the engine before heading out on the track so to speak
Yes of course, more than a couple of obstacles but they all stem from each of those two, aswell of course as the personalities involved too. This industry is very much about the people aswell as policy and doing the right thing
28 Oct 2009 by Mike Last edited 28 Oct 2009
Well, my skin is feeling thick today, and I have a feeling that I am going to need it after this, but here goes!
"the IOG is making tremendous strides towards making it available."
"I totally agree with Peter when it comes to how IOG has developed over the years"
I didn't want to get involved in the other thread as there seemed to be a certain amount of negativity towards the iog, which seemed to be based primarily on goings on in the past. I have followed the thread with interest though, and the one thing that has stood out to me is that nobody will get what they want if they approach such an issue with 'history'. Imo, to make things work as most people want them to, there are 3 key elements:
1) An open mind
2) Enthusiasm - none of this "its been tried before so it won't work"
3) Communication
All three elements are simple in theory, but I feel that a lot of 'ego's ' serve as an insurmountable obstruction to progress as things currently stand.
Now, far be it for me to judge the iog on their past reputation as I simply haven't been a member long enough, nor had a long enough history of dealing with them to formulate an accurate conclusion regarding what they do, or have done in the past, and i'm not one to jump on the bandwagon on someone else's say so.
There are some things that I would like to say though.
Have the iog not listened to their membership?
They run regular polls on their website, the results of which are printed in their magazine, and much good advice is given based on the results.
The magazine itself has recently undergone a restructuring as quite frankly, they were getting blown out of the water by the PC magazine. It still doesn't match up to the PC mag imo, but it is an extremely difficult task given the quality of PC, but at least they are making an effort rather than making do with what was effectively an unsuccessful publication.
I'd also like to ask a question as well - can anyone tell me how many people work at the iog hq that worked there 5 years ago? I've got a pretty good idea, and it's no coincidence that the iog seem to have made improvements in that time frame.
Coming from an area that has had NO industry support in the past, no shows, no seminars, no manufacturer open days, no training days, no award ceremonies etc, I have stood on the 'outside' looking in with envy, whilst many on the 'inside' have frowned upon events as they think that they could do a better job than the iog. I have lobbied manufacturers to run events like the ones which many of you have access to, and I have constantly come up with the same answer - "the isle of where?". I would give my right arm, well, maybe my left, to have access to an organisation that wanted to support me, and my fellow groundsmen where it matters to me - in my area. With this in mind, and a chance email from one person at the iog, we are now working towards getting industry support here, and the iog have been massively supportive of me in my quest, and have given me everything that I have asked of them, and more - personally, I could not ask any more of them.
I know the iog have their weaknesses, but ANY body that tries to represent an industry which is as diverse and has as many facets as ours will always come in for criticism - just like my old boss used to say to me "you can't please 650 bosses", in reference to the membership at my golf club.
Anyway, in response to Peter - you have hit the nail on the head!
Are you all sick of the subject 
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
30 Oct 2009 by vid
going round in great big circles again, just when there seems to be a bit of straight talking the old curve ball comes back in again!!
30 Oct 2009 by vid
BTW Mike "you can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but never all of people all of he time" or something like that - perhaps it was 'fool all of the....... '!! We should be aiming for pleasing some of the people some of the time and we would be doing quite well! You're right you are never going to please everybody
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
30 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 30 Oct 2009
Can someone explain why there is no standard wage for greenkeepers across the country ?
In doing some research so that I am better informed of some of the problems I came across a well written document relating to recommendations for golf greenkeepers.
I don't see why there would be a difference..a greenkeeper is a greenkeeper..golf training maybe slightly different to cricket, rugby or open park but the basics are the same.
www.bigga.org.uk/download.php?file=56 tells me that a London greenkeeper at 48 months 19984 pound in the SE of England 19115 the Remainder of UK 18159.
Huh ? It will be interesting to see how much Donald Trump is going to pay his course staff up in Scotland
In posts both in this thread and the other a figure of around 15000 is mentioned for field sports groundsmen / greenkeepers
Leaving aside the issue of disparity in golf wages..why is a groundsmen similarly educated with experience not paid the same as a golf greenkeeper ?
www.iog.org/documents/2006IOGsalarybands_001.doc in this document I am not sure how the figures are established but once again there is a difference in the recommendations and the number being used in these threads.
What is the reality of a greenkeeper / groundsman wages across the country ?
What is the wage offered for Wembley Stadium ? I only ask this so that I have an idea of just what a high profile professional groundsmen is paid in the U.K.
Peter.
The main difference as I see it is that there is a set path to follow in the golf industry and a wage band for each step up the qualification ladder you go.
This is not the case in Grounds Management becausei t is far more difficult to rationalise a groundsmans skills as the responsibilities are so varied. In golf it's either 9, 18 or above tees and greens and fairways but the training to manage those surfaces is established and standardised.
To use Hurlingham as an example, we have grass courts, cricket, bowls and croquet, golf and ornamental lawns. All requiring different skills and yet there is no course avaialble that covers them all to the necessary level.
So may "Horticultural" courses are 80% golf orientated.
To answer your Wembley question in true Peter Leroy style
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/major-step-backwards-for-groundsmanship.html
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Huh ! Thats nuts ! No not you PMC :)
I understand why a golf greenkeeper is paid the rate recommended. Years of training and experience in relatively straight forward turf management. Oh settle down golf people..greenside up and compared to the damage inflicted by rugby or the nuances of the cricket pitch..golf is relatively straight forward.
Now if I believe that... then logic tells me that the field sport groundsman requires a vast array of knowledge to produce the perfect turf surface. ergo..should be compensated higher than golf ?
ok ok..I will go and read the suggested article.
30 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 30 Oct 2009
"High reward for success, no second chances for failure." PMC said that in his article.
The article needs to be reproduced again is my thinking. It is relevant. Send it to all in sport, turf industry, government sport departments, unions etc.
All for 35k ?
If it was known by tax paying Joe Public that he is paying 50 quid to be entertained on a surface that is managed by a guy on 9 quid an hour some may wonder why it cost 50 quid to watch grass grow.
And there are those who wonder why some of us become passionate about the cause of improving the profile, wages, conditions, education, representation in this industry ?
It isn't right ! That's why.
30 Oct 2009 by Mike
Leaving aside the issue of disparity in golf wages..why is a groundsmen similarly educated with experience not paid the same as a golf greenkeeper ?
In my area, the average groundsmans wage seems to fall just short of IoG recommendations, and the poor greenkeepers are on a lot less, in general. I am aware however, that this isn't necessarily the case throughout the rest of the country.
I have worked in the trade for 20 years , as a groundsman and as a greenkeeper . And enjoy most days .
But the pay is a joke , but all parts attached to our industry get paid well and almost double what we can get . Just look at the jobs section . But the poor old humble worker who takes all the flack is on 7 pounds odd an hour on a 40 hour week for a year .
Could you imagine that all turf workers went on strike like the post office or any other trade can , what saturday afternoons would be like with no sport.
30 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 30 Oct 2009
Don't forget you have to work in the rain and snow, run to put covers on, draw a straight line over muddy surfaces, no air conditioning, old equipment, eat lunch in the same room as toxic chemicals are stored and probably a few other minor things most other trades do not or will not put up with.
Most who pay to come and see the groundsmans handy work..ok ok the game, are paid well above the groundsman. Oh and lets not forget..you can be fired for a poor surface even if it was designed as an architects dream.
Electricians..about 12 pounds and hour for less work...is a for instance.
What is a reasonable rate of pay for a Groundsman / Greenkeeper ?
When taking in educational standards required to have a career path, conditions of employment, expectation of employer (add spectator and player), health and safety issues etc
A reasonable rate of pay is what has 2 mow is mentioning above. Only what a club is prepared to pay and often that is close to the minimum wage. If he doesn't take the contract, they will find someone else who will despite the end result.
And if its to cold or to hot in the office , do they have rules under working conditions ?
But at least we have better than chilled water , straight from the end of the hose pipe .
And as a small contractor how are we to get young people into the trade . for the love of the job . That will pay the bills for the wife and two kids .
Mark
31 Oct 2009 by vid
So how is it that noone can see a way forward with increasing our representation that these two present threads are all about. Thats fundamentally what Peter Leroy has been trying to get across because it worked so well in Australia. If we as groundsmen represent our own industry rather than letting other people misrepresent it then perhaps we will make a huge stride forward
Absolutely right Vid. The Independent Greenkeepers Association (IGA) was set up with these ideals. Where it fell down was that it was back to the reality of a few people willing to put the time in. It also highlighted the weaknesses of Associations when it came to the crunch of employment difficulties. An Association could not help - the only representative allowed by law in an employer/employee meeting is a union official or High Court Judge. Can you blame people for getting disillusioned?
An Association can be a great organisation if run by the members, but it is the increasing pressure on time and work that prevents many good people from getting involved.
Great threads and thanks to Pitchcare for making this public debate possible.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
31 Oct 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 31 Oct 2009
"the only representative allowed by law in an employer/employee meeting is a union official or High Court Judge"
Is there a site where this law / rule can be seen ?
I was unaware that in the UK there can be no direct representation between employer and employee nor by any association representing the wishes of its membership.
In doing some research I came across these words on the ACAS site...
It is important for managers to have positive working relationships with employees, based on good communications.
It is at this basic level that many issues are raised and resolved informally, without the need to invoke formal procedures.
Employee representatives provide an additional channel for employees to communicate with managers, and vice versa.
Effective representation can help to build trust between employers and employees and a co-operative approach to problem solving.
Makes sense to me
31 Oct 2009 by vid
Andy thats what the Law says is available for the employee that an employer HAS to allow. However with strong representation (and my employees contracts reflect this) their contract can be worded to include anyone you like and is then legally binding. ie an employer cannot refuse a union official or Judge, but he would equally not be allowed to disallow anyone sanctioned by their own contract. It is always sensible to have an independant 3rd party available in these often heated circumstances anyway.
What therefore is to stop an employee asking for a representative of the IGA to be included in his contract, why should any employer want to disagree - if he does would you want to work for him - I just think it a matter of asking - I wouldnt object, did you ever ask any employers to do this, did you perhaps miss a trick. If enough were persuaded then the rules would be changed relatively easily to give the employee the right to choose his representation in his contract, why should it just be union officials - especially when there is little or no union interest.
There again I'm no lawyer perhaps I've got it all wrong.
Hi Peter Leroy, my regards to you in the first instance. It is a fundamental right under "statutory provision" that in any formal proceedings that there should be representation afforded to the Employee. Contrary to Andrews interpretation; The High Court Judge has no rights of Audience and this right can only be extended to Fellow Employees, or indeed, A trade Union Representative. And that's the way it is in the UK. On overview, would'nt it be nice if Mediation took precedence over all conflict? Regards, Ian.
31 Oct 2009 by vid
Peter I used this site for my contracts for employment, navigate around the site will get you any information you need http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndConditions/DG_10027905
Hi Vid, you are correct to an extent. If it is built into the contract under express intervention by the Employer then in some cases the right of Audience can be extended to the Employees choice "ie" The Iga (ex) Regards, Ian Mac
31 Oct 2009 by vid
Thanks Ian, its only a thought but perhaps you are rather more used to large corporate structures plus the likes of the practices of the GMB union. I just think there is room for a more dynamic organisation that encourages a full liaison between employer and employed that better fits the industry we work in - lets face it outside of council departments that are likely to be part of UNITE anyhow most employees are part of a workforce of 20 or less (and of course a huge number of just one employees), here there is likely to be a more receptive response to an approach of this sort
And thank you Vid, however! what I'm "used" to is sitting in a dirty,damp, cold Bothy listening to distressed Greenkeepers' and Groundsmen who are bitterly engaged in an unreasonable conflict where their rights, and the rights of the Land are usualy denied! leading to no chance of affirmative action. However Vid, I must agree with your post in "general" Regards. Ian
Thank you for the URL vid..I can see that things are more or less the same..just different. But now I am informed on that section and can return to the link as required.
I did find this...
Sport England..Sport England is a non-departmental public body under the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. It works to build the foundations of a world-class community sport system by working with national governing bodies of sport, and other funded partners, to increase participation and improve performance at all levels of English sport.
Seems to me that there needs to be a link from the Greenkeeper / Groundsman / Turf Manager to Sport England (or Scotland, Wales)
I imagine that the various sports (ECB, FA etc.) are linked to Sport England ?
So... the gap in the system is betweeen Turf workers and the sports ?
I see Ian Macs posts and I think I understand that there is little point in going straight to a High Court Judge for arbitration.
Can't arbitrate if you don't have concensus by the members of an organisation / union / association
Which brings me to the word.. Association.
It is can be defined as " group: a group of people or organizations joined together for a purpose. form an association to represent dairy farmers
ok it says dairy farmers as the example but replace with turf workers
So..is it technically possible to suggest that an association can be also seen as a union ?
Now the immediate problem I see with IOG or BIGGA etc. is that they cannot be seen as a Union as they are private companies or..they do not have elected officials.
I shall ponder more and see if anyone adds to this post.
No Peter, Unions may represent and have rights of audience by "implied" Judiciary Succession. Regards, Ian
Thanks Ian...you said what ? 
How do the 50000 turf workers get one of those ?
"..have rights of audience by "implied" Judiciary Succession"
Or
Which union represents the turf workers / sports turf managers / greenkeepers etc. ?
You can see I may be heading in a different direction from the "Parent Body" suggestion. But it is important for all to be aware of the various ways and means.
My order of prference would be a :-
"Parent body" with reps from all sections of the industry including the sports and government.
or
Extend the scope of existing organisations.
or
Direct negotiations and input with the sports.
or
Labor Unions
As an aside.. definition of Labor Union
workers' organization: an organization of wage earners that is set up to serve and advance its members' interests in terms of wages, benefits, and working hours and conditions
Mighty close to that of Association ?
Close Peter! but "not" close enough! Ian
Getting back to the original point, my thoughts are this...I use pitchcare to learn, to chat, resovle problems and source equipment and . I use the I.O.G. to hire equipment. My county first team use the I.O.G to pay money to so that a pitch advisor can come down every six months and tell them i am doing the right thing. All these guys use pitchcare. It's where they have finally started learning (30 yrs experience, started actually learning 7yrs ago, now i am 60 and trying to get the hang of a computer to catch up brigade). The only other way to learn was College and University and turf management courses were few and far between in their day. Laurence&co, stay independent and stay free. The only things i have noticed over the years is that there has been a 'dumbing down' of the articles. The old Technical merit award questions were brilliant. I consider myself lucky to be finishing my HNC as PC was starting and using it to continue my education. Something i would not have felt from a monthly copy of "The Groundsman". In my current role, i have joined the I.O.G for the sole reason of hiring machinery. I was asked for membership of a similar body as part of my application. I explained i was a member of PC. When pushed, i explained my case. This is, although free, a VERY professional body.
Yes..I too was going off on a tangent..the other thread is for revolution / change / advancement.
And so.
"But far more importantly, we the industry would benefit enormously from having an Institute that already works with all the top sports bodies having the worldwide established mouthpiece that is Pitchcare to spread the word.
In my mind there is only one way of having a voice loud enough to be heard where it matters, and that is for Pitchcare and The Institute of Groundsmanship to bury the hatchet and work together."
PMC... I couldn't agree more.
What has to be done to achieve this end. Invite one or the other over for a cuppa ?
P Leroy you've got your head up the PC rectum, lateral thinking has gone out of the window, PMC started a good thread and you have all but destroyed it.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Peter, indulge me! allow me to tell you a wee story! This story will remove one of your (or) choices above?
Once upon a time" and as recent as two years ago the like minded people who started The IGA were soon to make realization that our people; "Greenkeepers and Groundsmen"
needed a stronger voice which incorporated better protection and fuller representation than we could "Ever" afford them. On research we were soon to discover that The GMB,one of our countries biggest Trade Unions represented The Sports Industry through a Sports Section. This was to prompt us to visit them at their Head Quarters in Glasgow in order to present the state of our Industry as far as Legal representation was concerned. We were soon to discover the extent of this previously unheard of Section who had football managers and many players as members. Now! after weeks of negotiation we were to finally fashion; The Greenkeepers and Groundsman Branch which was fostered by we, the Turf Practitioners. Two years down the Line there are around one hundred members of this bespoke branch who all enjoy the protection of such a strong Union. Although many members have enjoyed representation and protection including Grievance, Disciplinary hearings and application to Tribunal. Membership has slowed up as our people don't seem inclined to pursue this form of membership,why? I simply don't know. Maybe someone can answer that for me? Peter, and with the greatest of respect;much of you sugested prescriptions have in fact been actioned to no avail! Thanks for listening. Ian Mac
Thank you Ian for the insight as to just what has been tried before. I was unaware.
I agree tonybolton..PMC has begun a great thread. Will you be able to offer anything positive to it ?
Again..thank you Ian Mac
1 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 1 Nov 2009
Tony, the relevance of a post is not up to you to decide we are all capable of ignoring irrelevance. Peter may take a few lines longer than some to put his point across but he absolutely has his heart in the right place and is trying to bring respect and order to the UK turf industry from the successes he has experienced as a pro in Australia. I'm not so sure of your intent but I think your imput is most unhelpful.
1 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 1 Nov 2009
Ian I don't think the GMB whether it has its own branch or not, is something we as groundsmen can identfy with and I cant really see them mediating between a part timer preparing a cricket square and his employer the club cricket comittee, even if he could be persuaded to pay a sub.
However when does an association become cohesive enough to be given union status - is it just words or are minimum numbers involved or are certain services required to achieve 'union' status. I'm not so sure this sort of representation can be achieved by profit making companies as they involve too many interests that would clash with the independant and unbiased structure needed for a representative body.
As far as education and information goes PC IOG BIGGA STRI BALI etc are all there for the industry benefit and provide these elements extremely well - it would not be necessary to threaten their business activities at all.
Once we talk about the individual, his right to respect and recognition, help with employment issues and employer disputes, his right to education and advancement then I cant see how commercial interests such as these could provide a service without being influenced by commercial gain.
I think there would have to be a get together of many likeminded people to form a voluntary association with an intent to have a professional element as soon as numbers and funds can be established. It would then be vital to forge a link with the national sporting bodies, the national media - especially sports television and radio, the government and hopefully as many employers as is feasible. We should be able to learn on how to achieve this from the Australian model (for example).
Personally a separate association of Groundsmen or turf practitioers or amenity horticulturists etc with the wellbeing and recognition of the individuals who work within the industry sounds great to me. This would not be about hiring machinery or finding fertiliser it would be about you and me run by you and me for you and me, if it proves to be otherwise it will not gain support.
Our industry is too diverse and fragmented to be run according to another industry's rules. It needs people who are passionate about preparing sports and landscapes, understand seasonality, the necessity for long hours and have a deep respect for the hard work and expertise of the craftsmen who carry out the work, to speak out for them, promote them and their hard work and ensure that employers including comittees at last have a recognised body that will advise them properly on employment issues etc that are peculiar to this line of work
How can that not be right
We are starting to read a lot about union membership. I for one would not even consider paying anything to join such an outdated organisation, as I won't pay a quid a week for a magazine when I can get access to most of it online.
Ian in his post mentions that after 2 years there are about 100 paying members of the GMB branch, frankly, I'm surprised the figure is as big as that.
I am not a political person nor particularly well educated but I can see little benefit from union membership in this day and age. Let's watch how the poor postal workers are represented.
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Did you read my post Vic? Union is just a name how ior if t is formed and constituted is up to us
To Vic Demain and others wanting to know more about how a union can be relevant in this modern world, contact Brian Johnstone on 07515199298 who is the Official Secretary of The GMB Sport Section.
I am not advocating a union can replace a well run and supported Association, but you may learn something if you are willing to listen, and I speak as an independent business owner.
Also see message thread http://www.pitchcare.com/message/message/15013 where this was debated.
Best regards
Andy Turnbull
1 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 1 Nov 2009
I'm sorry Andy/Ian but I have never heard of the GMB standing up for groundsmen, why should they, as a broad spectrum mega union they cannot devote the time to our industry that would make them even slightly attractive to the majority of groundsmen. They have far bigger fish to fry and our contributions to other branches will be greatly appreciated. I cant remember Unite winning back works departments after compulsory competitive tendering and since then I cant think of a single turf or landscape issue being brought to the fore by any union. Surely if they have a single member who is as demonstrably underpaid as groundsmen are when compared to other workers with similar qualifications they would do something about it and at the same time kick up afuss about the injustice - instead total and complete silence until a little squad of interested and passionate groundsmen open up another revenue source. Cynical - yes, I dont believe there is the slightest interest in representing the turf industry. I do believe they have a huge interest in serving themselves. Therefore they are not for me
Vid, I did read your post and understand what you are saying, I just fail to see how any organisation, whatever it is called, will be of any interest to the guys on the ground.
Andy, sorry but I believe if the union want us on board, they should come and find us, not the other way around and convince us how we are being foolish not to join.
1 Nov 2009 by Mike
Re the GMB.
During a messy employment dispute last year, I emailed the GMB to see if I could join. I also outlined the scenario that I found myself in at the time - I received NO response whatsoever. I even emailed them again in case my first email had been overlooked - still no response.
One phone call to the IoG got me free legal advice, one phone call to my local industrial relations office got me free advice, and ultimately mediation in my workplace, and I must add that Ian Mac also offered me a great deal of support and advice.
So, my question is this - why would someone want to join the GMB when a great deal of help is already available, and even more so when the GMB simply cannot be bothered to return an email during a persons time of need? I don't think for one minute that the GMB have any interest in representing the 'small fish'.
Mike
Gentlemen, I'm not a recruiter for the GMB and to be perfectly honest was never a Union person. My envolvement was to be initiated by the events of a disciplinary meeting that I was to attend as an official of an Association. Cutting it short! the captain of the club asked me what position I held that was to allow me an audience to represent Mr x a Course Manager in one of the prestigious clubs in Edinburgh. On discovery that I was "not" an Union Official was asked to leave the meeting! the rest has nothing to do with anyone !but my purpose from that day was to put myself in such a position that would enable me the rights of audience at all official transactions. I know it's not for "everyone" and so be it" Ian Mac.
Mike I am delighted that things are good with you now. To answer your question above. You may want to join an Union simply because thay are the "ONLY" people who may represent you "outwith" your work colleague when you really need help during an Employment dispute; Hearing.
Regards to you Mike. Ian
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Vic, I understand your scepticism of unions I feel the same and perhaps you are sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable enough to be able to source help and information to help yourself. I dont think that is the case for all however, some find themselves fresh out of education in a small firm/club/organisation with noone to turn to. Why would you not want what was available to Mike but all at one source and more to the point all at one price. I have suggested above that it would have to be formed out of an initial loose voluntary organisation funded by donation and whatever aid could be gained from other sources.
'Union' is just a name I dislike intensely what they have become as they represent what is bad in work relations - it is high time associations were formed that everyone works to a common cause for common benefit. Mike above is a typical example and result of ignorance in the workplace - had his manager and employers been better informed it is unlikely his circumstances would have broken down as far as they did. I would sincerely hope that any association that I had anything to do with would be there to help and advise the individual as well as the general cause. Because after all our industry is made up of a huge number of small diverse units. The 'small fish' are exactly who need representation and if we are properly represented the small fish wont feel so small any longer.
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Ian did the IGA gain 10% representation within any organisation with 21 employees or more and if so did you apply to the CAC for recognition as a trades union so you could arbitrate in any dispute. I would still want to hold on to the word association as there is obvoious hostility towards the 'Trade Union' tag. I think that alone is unfortunate and goes to show how unpopular they have become - I believe there is only half the number of union members as there were in 1997, and I think with the unpopularity of this Royal Mail dispute and those of railworkers recently that will fall even further unless they buck their 'dinosaur' views up.
Perhaps we can show them the way !!!
1 Nov 2009 by Mike Last edited 1 Nov 2009
Hi Ian, I hope all is well with you, too.
After my little dispute, I looked at all of the options available to me with a view to ensuring that I would never find myself in such a messy position again. The GMB warranted little consideration by me, as they clearly weren't interested in helping me as an individual. After much deliberation, I found only one conclusion, and that was to empower myself the the knowledge needed to 'stick up for myself'. Since that time, I have immersed myself into employment law - not with a view to a career change, but to enable me to draw strength from the knowledge that I have garnered, and armed with this knowledge, I no longer fear any position that any employer should choose to put me in.
As you rightly say, no council (aside from a union rep) can accompany an employee during certain employment hearings, unless it is previously agreed by the employer. So, as an employee, you are left with few options. One is to be accompanied by another member of staff - what use does this serve if that colleague lacks the legal knowledge, or the wherewithal to back you up with it, it is quite a pointless exercise. The other is to go it alone, but what use is this if you have no knowledge of employment law?
If representation in employment disciplinary/grievance hearing is what people want, I can offer no better advice that to read up on your employment rights and attend as many employment law workshops as you possibly can. I often reflect on the position that I found myself in, and based on these thoughts, it is my belief that basic employment rights should be included in statutory education - if this was the case, there might never be a need to rely on disinterested unions and ill informed employees, who with the best will in the world, often fear the repercussions of such meetings as after all, they too are employees, and are often unaware of the right to "not suffer a detriment", be discriminated against, be victimised or suffer less favorable treatment following such hearings, and are therefore, often reluctant to offer the support is often required.
Since indulging myself in the world of employment law, several colleagues have approached me for help regarding varied employment issues. I have accompanied each one at a number of hearings, and all have expressed a great deal of gratitude to me for doing so. The only things that have enabled me to offer the support to these people when they needed it was knowledge and a genuine will to help. Had I known what I know now when I went through my own dispute, I would have been saved a huge amount of heartache, concern and illness, and through the knowledge that I researched and gained, I will never suffer such a situation again, and nor will my colleagues if I have anything to say about it. For what little time and money this 'education' has cost me, I would suggest that it is the best time and money that I have ever spent.
Mike
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Forming an association of colleagues does NOT mean we have to become like other unions, it would enable people like Mike to use his experience to help others, good post Mike hope you dont mind what I said above!!
1 Nov 2009 by Mike
Not at all Vid.
If only one person can learn from the toils that I suffered, and use that to enable them to avoid such pains, then everything that I went through was worthwhile.
Mike
Hi Vid, our intention from the outset was to initiate and foster an Association and as such we were never purposed to enter into agreement with CAC. However on reflection it may have been prudent to have went in this direction" who know's ? And perhaps we "should" show them the way. Ian.
Mike, your direction since your resolution has to be admired! and I do. You are inspirational. I truly believe that arbitration and lastly, Litigation should be replaced by Mediation as a mandatory step in the procedural journey. Ian
1 Nov 2009 by Mike Last edited 1 Nov 2009
Ian, whilst I agree that mediation is a better solution that arbitration and litigation, it is not without its own problems.
From experience, I can say that mediation can be an incredibly difficult proposition for a distressed employee - it is without question, the single most difficult thing that I have ever been party to, and it is a procedure, whilst sometimes necessary, I would not wish upon anyone.
Prevention! is the best cure imo. This prevention can only be maintained through the employee having knowledge of their employment rights, clear communication with the employer, and if needed, a body (union, association perhaps?), that is willing and able to walk into the workplace and defend the rights of the said employee, although I would say that employers in general fear one thing, and that is the employees having knowledge and the confidence to use that knowledge.
Perhaps a good place to start would be free/cheap employment rights training courses, a central reference point for people to be able to check up on these rights, access to a support network, and ultimately membership of the CAC as Vid pointed out above. I would also add that any group which is formed should lobby the government to introduce employment rights into the education curriculum - I feel hugely passionate about this, and I am certain that this would go some way to helping to support some of the people who don't get the support and guidance from the industry which their very problems support in the first place.
Mike
Mike I would certainly concur your point of view in relation to education. Education "IS" power (but) not absolute, and as such! conflict will always present itself so therefore, resolution will always be evident and indeed, necessary. So what better than Alternative Dispute Resolution (Mediation) being the most agreeable (win,win) Getting back to Education, and it's significance to our people. Whatever,whoever becomes the primary catalyst for the change we need in this Industry has to incorporate this empowerment to the Practitioner in order to increase their survival and hopefully broker more respect from their employers. On conclusion, education "would" be a good place to start, and, to secure. Ian
"On conclusion, education "would" be a good place to start, and, to secure. Ian".............
................which is where a joint business venture between Pitchcare.com and The Institute of Groundsmanship could really make a difference.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
1 Nov 2009 by Mike Last edited 1 Nov 2009
The problem with conflict, even after a "win,win" resolution is the scar that it leaves. It takes a huge amount of effort from all parties to completely remove that scar - 12 months on (pretty much to the day, funnily enough) from my initial dispute, and 7 months on from mediation, I still suffer consequences on a daily basis, and I will continue to for a long time to come - education has enabled me to minimize those effects, but not disregard them. What mediation does enable people to do is carry on with their employment, whilst giving guidelines that are agreed by both parties as to what is reasonable and what is unreasonable, but it does not heal wounds.
Conflict will always arise, and that in itself isn't a problem. The manner in which the conflicting parties carry themselves throughout conflict is the deciding factor in how far that conflict goes, and what vehicles, be it mediation, concilation, tribunal etc are necessary. Increased understanding of not only your employment rights, but also your duties as an employee are paramount to ensuring that those vehicles for resolution should not be required in all but the most extreme circumstances.
Yes, I agree that mediation is a very viable solution regarding employment issues, but one only needs to look at the size of the employment dispute resolution industry to realise that the problem doesn't necessarily lie in 'how best to solve', but 'how best to minimize' disputes in the first place, and as we both seem to agree, education is the way forward in this regard.
Mike
Yes Peter, add the other big boy (BIGGA) and this would certainly be the whole essence of the "Final Solution" The toys may still be strewn around the wheels of their prams, but, Hell" we can tidy up. Can't we? Ian Mac
I think we are getting somewhere in this discussion Ian.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
Collective bargaining could and does lead to workplace agreement. Such a concept is usually only considered in one workplace.
The proposals that I and others have suggested are merely an extension.
That is to either reform an association (IGA) OR lobby IOG / BIGGA to extend their influence and take a workable workplace agreement and have it cover ALL areas of the turf industry.
Education..a huge factor in any collective bargaining situation. (not necessarily just turf management but also as Mike says industrial law and other areas.
As no one person can lay down "law" as to how a workplace operates then it is necessary to gather those expert in the various areas to form a collective (association) elected by the members to represent the majority wishes of the membership.
If there is an association already in place but does not cover all of the memberships requirements then it is cost effective to expand the association.
I have found that the most worthwhile associations are those who represent the wishes of the members. Those associations also have input / exchange from other groups outside the immediate sphere.
As I am beginning to understand just what IGA was / is about but not fully, I ask the following...
1) Is there a will or way to regroup IGA and add the sports and govrnment representatives to the discussions ?
2) Would IOG / BIGGA and others be willing to be part of a discussion group leading to expanding their sphere of influence ?
In both case.... If not, then why not ?
Bigga tried to ride us out of town so hardly going to welcome a re -formed Iga, are they?
mad4mud
1 Nov 2009 by vid
So what have we got - BIGGA won't, IOG probably won't and PC will support us but will not be part of running it - rather looks like we need to turn to ourselves guys however much we fancy somebody else taking the reins - who fancies it??
1 Nov 2009 by Mike
Vid - I would love to hop on board; however, I am of the opinion that there is room for the bodies that represent us at present to improve, so in this instance my support is with them... for the moment.
As I have stated before, I am not willing to draw conclusions on others experiences, and I like to formulate my opinions based on my own experiences. I, unlike many people who have contributed to this thread am in a position where I can look at things with no bias, or 'history' of either organisation. So, from my perspective, I would like to give them a chance to demonstrate to me how they can represent me and my fellow groundsmen. If I feel that they are not fulfilling their duties, rest assured that I will raise my concerns with them in the first instance, and if improvements are not sought, I will look elsewhere.
For the moment though, I have been very happy with what the IoG have done for me, and what they are trying to achieve in my area of late.
I will be raising the concerns that I have mentioned in this thread with the IoG in due course, and I will lobby them to make moves to rectify these points.
I would however like to wish you good luck in anything that you put your efforts into, and as one of the many groundsmen in the uk whom you are trying to improve conditions for, I would like to express my gratitude to you, and any others who 'fancies it'.
Mike
1 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 1 Nov 2009
I have said before but I will suggest it again that the IOG and BIGGA it would appear, would find it difficult to include such representation because of the clash of interest with their commercial dealings I know that is what PMC and others would like to see but I think a separate organisation fully supported by BIGGA, IOG, PC, BALI etc that would not impinge on any of their business practices but more likely enhance the facilities they can offer is the way forward - I find it quite incredible that BIGGA would see off the IGA as a threat - perhaps they can defend themselves, but isnt it incredible that these threads have been open for a week and they are unable to bring themselves to respond in this forum. There are several IOG members that have posted how does it sit with them that such an important issue is not reponded to. Sometimes and I think this is definitely one of them they do not deserve the patronage of their own membership, in fact some have already said they are going to withdraw their membership!!
So I say Mike for all their blustering about how they represent the grass roots of our industry where the hell are they!!
I have no history or bias but I am getting increasingly fed up with their silence
I truly understand your perception of the whole Industry mess. However", is it not based on assumptions driven by a desire to mend what is categorical in it's current need of repair. I know, I have been there with many others and failed. Let's allow DS to broker resolution, after all he has the might of PC behind him. I truly believe that all concerned parties within our Industry want the same thing, so allow them to get around that table. If they point the way then we can all follow to brighter days. What do you think? Regards, Ian.
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Are you up to brokering this yet Dave?
What is Dave to broker cos I am lost on the 2 threads..... a new unionisation of the sportsturf industry in association with the GMB or an association set up by the industry that brings together as many of the active parts of the industry as possible for the greater good of all..........
Direction is what the sport industry needs, that will lead to benefits for all..
Well thats what I think anyways....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Barry - I think it has been said over and over that the GMB is not a vote winner for the majority of us however once properly constituted an association of turf professionals should be able to register as an arbitrator with the CAC - the people who will decide if you have the right to represent your members in a dispute. Why would we not want that simple fact to be included - is it simply because the word 'union' crops up.
This industry is very fragmented and represented collectively by noone especially if the different favctions wont talk to each other - quite frankly in this respect BIGGA and the IOG are as bad or worse than the very unions we are deriding. That does not mean I like the GMB UNITE etc it is however to say that there are elements of union membership that we should consider as a part of an association. This seems to be an incredibly hard point to get across, if you feel strongly please elaborate.
1 Nov 2009 by Mike
I don't know where they are Vid, nor do I know what their thoughts are in relation to this thread, and yes, I am somewhat curious.
For me, I have two ways to go - I can look to support something that has the whole industries interests in mind, or I can look to take things one step at a time and try to generate industry support on my doorstep - this is what I chose to do a little while ago, and yes, the IoG have supported me in my quest.
The IoG ran the first ever groundsmans training day over here some two weeks ago, and we should have another 3/4 in the coming year, in addition to manufacturer sponsored seminars - this is progress. Their regional advisor and I also spent a day visiting the local clubs over here and we spoke with the many volunteer groundsmen about what issues they had - one of which was "how can we afford to buy top dressing for our bowling green at £130 per tonne" - this is what it costs to buy it and get it to the island! Off the back of this conversation, I am now in liason with the sports governing bodies over here, various quarries and some other contacts to see if we can manufacture top dressing here on the island, to allow these clubs to look after their surfaces - again, this is huge progress, we are also lobbying the sports governing bodies over here to try to release more funds for these clubs - this again is progress. I met only yesterday with some volunteer cricket groundsmen to try to help them in some way, and off the back of that conversation and a suggestion from the IoG, we are looking to employ a similar system to the ECB trailer set up for end of season renovations - again, another huge step forwards.
Perhaps you guys on the mainland aren't getting the support that I have been? I really don't know, but I can only judge from what I see in front of me, and the IoG are standing right next to me in getting support to the guys that need it - I can't ask for a great deal more than that at the moment - everything that I have asked the iog to do for me regarding supporting the groundsmen over here, they have done.
Yes, there are areas that the iog need to improve on, and I would also like to give them the chance to improve on these areas, and I will be pushing them on these issues in the future. I have tried to prioritise the things that need to be addressed over here, and we are currently working together on priority 1 and 2 - education and funding. Priorities 3, 4, 5 etc will come with time, as I can only tackle so many things at one time.
Mike
1 Nov 2009 by vid
Cikey Mike, well done - I am certainly not about to try to deflect you from that course. Wish the IOG would get its a**e into gear on this very issue then and we can all go to bed and sleep easy!!
1 Nov 2009 by Mike
Well Vid, once i've sorted the island out, i'll hop on the ferry and sort things on the mainland!!
In all seriousness though, I think that I am in a fortunate position as anything is progress over here as we have had no industry presence in the past. Whereas it appears that a lot of mistakes have to be undone before progress can happen on a uk wide scale.
Mike
Hiya vid, the IOG and BIGGA have at least one thing right between them, they are recognised to some degree by sport governing bodies, they have credibility, they have substance, something more than a few ideals, but they may or may not be getting it quite right for their target memberships as a whole, they do a job ....
Can they by almagamation or expansion provide a solution to the needs of ALL or enough Turf Practitioners, professional, grumpy or otherwise..... no way they each need to concentrate on what they do and get it better...
Pitchcare Ltd will continue through the magazine and here to provide its customers, the ones that feel homeless or do not wish to be within any of the above or those that think this is a damn fine place to be as it is, with what they want IF there is enough money in it...
All the the things that have been banged on about are about perception, standards, impressions, promotion..... all about what users, customers, owners, governing bodies, local authorities, joe public, bloomin commentators who know as much about grass as the rules, future staff thinks about the provision of a sport surface.....
This is a whole lot bigger than half of what has been spouted out here.... BUT it will lead to the ability to define, steer and direct the future of sport provision and therefore change or influence all that is being said...
Stop the jibber jabber and get the existing to sit within an Association that looks after us all and allows them to concentrate on what they need to do, use the collective credibility to stand up and shout out ...... change the future by power ....
thats all I was trying to say
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Barry, Wow. Ian Mac
so whats now ?
1 Nov 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 1 Nov 2009
Simples..... get enough people to shout it out so they have to listen and take a serious look...............
If its worthy of cause, with the right intent, powered by the passion that is ALL about growing grass it will evolve....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
43 minutes ago by ben ryan
so whats now ?
See first post.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
1 Nov 2009 by Peter Leroy Last edited 1 Nov 2009
If it the concensus that IOG is not broken but is in need of some grassroots direction then this needs to be read.
http://www.iog.org/election2010.asp
As with any election, determine what you stand for and what you will try to achieve if elected and then be nominated for election to the board.
http://www.iog.org/documents/Role%20of%20the%20Board.pdf
You can make a difference !
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