Message Board: Golf: [CLOSED] Vertidrain 7212 Tine Depth
5th Nov 2009 by Char
Hi good people we are currently verti draining our golf greens with the above mc,however we seem to be getting much better depth with our solid tines by not using the rear roller! This of course results in an uneven playing surface of which we have to cut with a triplex afterwards! What simple thing are we doing wrong? Any advice would be great as we have only had the machine 6 months! Thankyou.
5th Nov 2009 by caravan
Have you put the rear roller in the float position when using the machine ,if not in float this would stop the tines penetrating
5th Nov 2009 by Char
Thanks will try!
21st Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 21st Nov 2009
I am doing my greens now (36) and i am using the rear roller. I am tinning at 9 inch deep, with 10mm tines.
I always use the rear roller, but i take the top link off, and use a heavy chain instead, so the machine floats over the green, with equal weight on both rollers.
Our greens on both courses are very undulating, and with a top link, will damage the green if the rear roller digs in.
(the depth wont make any differance weather you have a roller on or not)
I am on USGA sand greens, so have to lower it every 6 greens as the tines are wearing.
Try it, the roller works well with a chain, i still follow with a greens mower too, but leaves a nice tidy job.
21st Nov 2009 by ricam
As caravan said you should have the two pins either side of the rear roller in the slide position on the bracket. In this position the roller cannot mark your greens since it is floating. If you have a chain as a top link , when going down bank you risk the machine coming into the back of the tractor and damage occurring.
Which roller is marking the one that controls your depth or yhe smaller diameter back one?
21st Nov 2009 by Nigel.
The vertidrain is so heavy, it wont possably lean forward and hit the tractor.
And with the floating rear roller, you only have the weight of the roller on the ground, the way i do it, you have 1/2 the weight of the machine on each roller.
(and not the weight of the machine all on the front roller)
21st Nov 2009 by ricam
Seems you are doing it completely wrong, believe both myself and caravan have used and sold vertidrains for 25 years and know how they should be set up.
using the machine how you are doing it will lead to damage- however that will be good for spares buisness.
21st Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 21st Nov 2009
I am Nigel Harrhy, and I own 2 golf courses, west midlands and widney manor, and have done my greens and tees this way for the last few years.
I find that with the floating rear roller, there is too much weight on the front roller, and the way i do it is correct for my greens, yet you are telling me i am doing it wrong.
I have just relised you are Richard Campey, i bought the machine from you.
21st Nov 2009 by Nigel.
I bought it from Simon new in 2000. I also bought a fairway top dresss trailer, a pair of rolls, a rough mower, a few attachments, and i have certanly spent 100 grand with you at least.
Simons help and knowledge has been fantastic, but i am using the machines, and i agree that using the vertidrain on hard ground, with a chain top link would let the machine bounce, but on soft sand greens that are 12 inch deep, the weight of the machine is so stable you could sit on it.
My point is, i am using the machines you sell, and your advice is appreciated, and usualy right, but not allways.
21st Nov 2009 by ricam
Nigel, Hi. what I am trying to explain is if the back roller bracket is locked in one of the holes that hold it rigid you will run the risk of the roller marking your greens since it cannot float, and also you will not be able to achieve full depth.
One of us will call and see you and see if we can be of help in the near future.
22nd Nov 2009 by chrismitchell
One hard piece of ground and the action of the tines will place all of the shock forward onto the pto shaft. Hope you never have to claim warranty.
Chris
Remember, never eat yellow snow!
22nd Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 22nd Nov 2009
Thankyou Richard. I do use the top link on fairways, but on USGA greens i have a better finish with both rollers evenly on the ground. (that was the original question.)
If any of your reps call by this week i can show them how i do it.
Chris, i an only vertidraining USGA sand greens, they are 12 inch deep, and i am going in 9 inch, so cant hit 'hard gound'.
Also i bought the machine from Richard in 2000 as i said, so is rather out of warrenty!
I dont think i would bother a dealer over a broken PTO shaft if i was to break one anyway!
23rd Nov 2009 by Steve63
Nigel, the pto shaft connects directly to your tractors gearbox!
Regards
Steve
From now on I'll keep my own Council
23rd Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 23rd Nov 2009
That's right Steve, but if the implement was to tilt forward, it would break the UJ not the tractors PTO shaft.
Are you also trying to tell me i am doing it wrong? lol.
23rd Nov 2009 by Steve63
I wouldn't dare Nigel :)
Although, if you were working downslope and the machine was to hit something hard (unlikely on your sandy greens) the impact could jar the top of the verti-drain forwards which in turn would force the pto shaft against the gear box possibly nudging a gear out of line.
Regards
Steve
From now on I'll keep my own Council
23rd Nov 2009 by Neil Dixon
would be interested to hear what the HSE would say about a bit of chain holding a verti drain to a tractor.
Gross neglect, gross incompetence, and ignorance all spring to mind, let alone complete disregard for H & S and duty of care.
But i suppose as you own the courses then that is Ok as, we all know a bit of chain doesnt snap.
23rd Nov 2009 by Nigel.
Neil, it is not 'a bit of chain', it is a short length of heavy chain. I can get a 1 inch pin though the chain, so i would estimate it to be 50 ton chain, it certainly isn't going to break lifting a 1.5 ton machine!
How would you expect an accident to occur? The machine is working on soft sand greens, and is not bouncing.
I am totally aware of my health and safety obligations, and it is certainly safe.
I am new to this forum, and for some reason have been ganged up on by you regulars, i was only trying to answer a question by the gentleman at the top who was asking how others went about vertidraining there greens, i though it was an open forum for anyone to answer, but it appears not.
If this is how this site is, i no longer wish to be here, You have all succeded to bully me of the site.
Good evening and good bye, Nigel.
23rd Nov 2009 by Neil Dixon
Nigel, sorry you feel like and that is not the case or intention with this forum, but ultimatley common sense has to kick in, and what you are suggesting is wrong, unprofessional and ultimatley dangerous.
You say yourself you "estimate" It to be a 50 ton chain, so yourself are not sure of the load / breaking strain of the chain, nor how corroded, rusty it may or may not be.
If one of my staff used a bit of chain instead of a top link on our verti drain they would be disciplined for negligence / gross misconduct.
Did your supplier supply the chain with the verti drain?
Did your supplier during the demo take off the top link and replace with the chain?
was the digging in noted on the greens?
did you demo the green on the most undulating green?
If you had problems at the demo, ( not suggesting you did though) why buy the machine?
altering any machine from the manufacturers spec is asking for trouble.
If your verti drain is digging in then i would suggest the machine is not sitting square on the tractor or the roller configuration is set up wrong , or maybe the greens are too soft for verti draining??????
Have you used a spirit level to ensure it is sitting square?
You make the point about accidents, that is the why they are called accidents , they occur when you dont expect them.
The chain could break during transport forcing the machine to pivot forward / back
the chain could break during operation forcing the machine to pivot forward / back
what if this happens during operation, PTO is going, the machine pivots forwards smashing the pto shaft / spindle and possibly metal flying around near golfers / other staff.
if it happens during transport, could damage the crank arms, tine holders / tines, rollers, bearings as the machine crashes to the ground
Ok so the chance of soemone getting hurt is small, but the cost of any of the above should convince you to be sensible.
I still maintain that if you have problems with it digging in it is a set up problem, in which case get on the phone and get the supplier back in for refresher training / set up, if as you say you have spent lots of money with them they should be keen to keep you as a customer.
23rd Nov 2009 by bath
Just because you can slip an inch pin through the chain link does not indicate any strength. The link could be made of cheap 3mm material. That would not make a strong strain.
24th Nov 2009 by Barry Pace
Hi Nigel, hope you don't take the comments too hard, but have to agree, it is a sign of the times and a fact of life that you just can not give out advice which goes against recommendations to someone you don't know, you may well have a plenty good bit of chain on your machine that would pass any inspection/risk assessment and would never break but how do you know char will go and get a strong enough one, what if he bought something that snapped and worst case scenario the machine pivoted, pto snapped at the machine end and shaft started flying smashing into the arms sending shrapnel everywhere. The majority of people responding on here are professionals (not saying your not) and in the environments they all work in H & S is knocked into us so much it becomes second nature.
I can see that what you are doing is probably fine and you have assessed the risk even if only mentally, there are a few things we all do which may not be strictly by the book and you take a view on each but I wouldnt dare suggest to someone I didnt know that they tried it thats all.
Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......
24th Nov 2009 by chrismitchell
At a course near me a vertidrain was fitted up to a brand new tractor and the pto shaft was not checked for length. The vertidrain struck a hard piece of ground and pushed the shaft into the tractor so hard it destroyed the tractors gearbox and clutch. VERY expensive mistake.
Chris
Remember, never eat yellow snow!
24th Nov 2009 by lee strutt
Hi Nigel,
Have you tried a hydraulic floating top link? this would allow you to have your implement run independantly over the contours of the green and remain within the recommendations of the manufacturer and health & safety guidelins.
best Regards
Lee
24th Nov 2009 by chrismitchell
I used to use a hydraulic top link with our vertidrain, admittedly not in floating position, but was told by supplier when I replaced the machine that it was a no no. It is to do with the angles that the machine can be moved to causing the tines to enter at the wrong angle and possible expensive breakages as a result. If the machine is floating the amount of heave is constantly varying so is inconsistant.
Chris
Remember, never eat yellow snow!
24th Nov 2009 by lee strutt
Hi Chris
What I meant to say that if the hydraulic top link is in "float mode" but nigel was wanting to use the rear roller in the locked poisiton, allowing the machine to follow the contours. this wouldn't then affect the heave of the machine, it would also offer the potential H&S issue and maintain manufacturers guidelines being maintained.
Best Regards
Lee
24th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
Boy, that's a lot of questions to answer!
No, the chain wasn't supplied by the dealer.
My greens are USGA greens built in 2000, they have been seeded, and have been very soft and delicate for the first few years.
Every thing i have done i have had to be careful, from initial seeding, to fertilising, and spraying, having such a soft surface is difficult as you know.
When first over seeding, i modified my seeder, i replaced my rear brush with another sorrel roller, and replaced the top link with a chain, so my 'undulating' greens would be getting an even smooth penetration of the sorrel roller and an even seeding.
It was so successful, that when i first vertidrained with the heavy machine, i did the same.
The Vertidrain was digging into the soft surface with the front roller, and with the rear roller floating, and with the rear locked it was digging in at the back, so the 'floating' top link was, and is the answer.
As for manufacturers guidelines, that just what they are, guidelines, i bought the machine, and can do as wish with it. As for H/S, i have explained many times already, the machine is working on soft sand, is solid as a rock, and if it was to run off the green and hit a hard spot, all it does is bend or break the tine.
I will try and attach a photo of the chain, i don't know the breaking strain, i don't need to, common sense sees that its big enough and strong enough to lift both the tractor and vertidrain!
I said i wasent going to respond, but will do, just to put your mind at rest, mine allready is!
24th Nov 2009 by ricam
Seems a run of the mill problem has opened up a can of worms.The chain certainly looks and is
more than strong enough than a comparable cat 1/1 top link.
The only other adaption we have done with some of our customers machines which mark under soft conditions is fit a larger diameter roller, however you will loose some depth by doing so.
25th Nov 2009 by Ken Barber
Why would you verti-drain soft greens? I have worked on newly constructed USGA spec greens in the UK and Eire, as well as 30+ year old established USGA greens, and I would not worry about deep aeration on greens that were less than 5 years old. That is assuming they were built to a decent spec?
With a good spec and built with the correct angular shape sand, pedominantly sand spec greens should not compact. Aeration should only be needed to maintain good air/gas exchange in the surface area where thatch may accumulate to encourage soil organisms to degrade the thatch.
Admittedly, as greens age there may be a natural movement of some fines or some elements such as Fe may encourage parial panning. Then verti-drain to prevent or cure this problem.
Nigel, I like the idea of a chain mounted top link to resolve your undulating green problem, but I have to agree with the other responses on this post..... A warning of "this is not normal practice and one should be cautious" would have saved a lot of bad feeling.
Changing the subject slightly. Are you happy with the greens you have, in terms of undulation? Some designers go too far on creating these type of greens and the end user.... namely, the owner and course manager, have the problem of speading wear because of the lack of pin locations?
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 25th Nov 2009
Neil.
I have answered a simple question from the guy called Char, and for some reason i am getting interrogated and being accused of Gross neglect, gross incompetence, and ignorance.
I will answer your questions.
No, the supplier (Campey) didn't supply the chain.
No, he didn't take off the top link and replace it with the chain.
No, it wasent digging into the greens as i had just built the greens, so it was bought to be used on fairways, and greens at a later date.
No didn't demo at all, i bought it over the phone.
I am not asking for trouble, by altering the machine.
My greens were too soft 5 years ago for vertidraing, but need doing now. (not for compaction but for aeration)
No, i Haven't used a spirit level, the rollers are set on the same marks each side, and in the same holes in the rear roller.
Accidents, in 60 years, my Grandfather, my father, my self or my son have not had any tractor related accident our selves or our employees.
The chain is unlikely to break forcing the machine forwards or backwards, it is 3/4 chain, that i can get a 1 inch pin though, the chain is like an anchor chain from the QE2!
The machine is operating on soft 12 inch deep sand greens, just penetrating though soft turf, and does not bounce in any way, and if it hit hard ground will and does bend or break the tine. If it was to pivot forward, it is rather unlikely that metal would be flying anywhere!
The machine is unlikely to crash to the ground breaking the crank arms, only a 1/3 of the weight is held by the chain, the rest is on the arms of the tractor.
I am rather sensible, i have 54 staff, i need to be!
I don't wish to call back The supplier, unless they wish to come and have look, and see how well it is working.
Bath
The chain is not 3mm, you wouldn't lift machine off the floor with a 3mm chain, it is roughly 19mm chain (i haven't had it tested for strength before you ask either)
Barry,
Char will have to do his own risk assessments on the way he works with his machinery. All i said was i used a heavy chain. I will not be offering anyone any advice after this scenario.
Chris,
If the guy fitted a vertidrain without having checked the PTO lenth how did he get it on? If it stuck a hard piece of ground that pushed it into the back of the tractor, damaging the gearbox, he must have also been using a chain, or floating top link. I wouldn't advise this on hard ground! He needs to use his top link!!!! (or are your comments trying to scare me?)
Lee,
i am using the chain as a floating top link, the vertidrain is so heavy, it is not an issue of the machine tiling forwards. The recommendations of the manufacturer are nil and void, and health & safety issues are my responsibility.
Chris again.
On the greens, i am not heaving, i am penetrating straight in and out, not to relieve compaction, but to aid aeration. The machine is not tilting forward during operation, it is running dead flat and smooth, so does not alter the angle of the tines. And its up to the user if he wishes to use a floating top link, whatever the suppliers recommendations are.
Lee again,
boy i wish i had never said that i used a chain, i wish i had said that i used a floating top link, (i wont be posting again after this anyway)
Richard.
The chain could lift a tank! I haven't a clue on the breaking strain, i use common sense. I don't find the rear roller is heavy enough, the machine rolling on both roller works perfectly.
Ken.
I am vertidraining my 10 year old greens to keep the black layer at bay, keep the surface dry, let the rain penetrate though the turf, and to let some much needed air into the root system.
They were built to the top spec by Nigel Eley using USGA spec sand from WBB minerals.
Ken, i regret ever saying i used a chain, i will not be offering advice on here again believe me, i am a newcomer, and everyone has jumped down my throat!
My undulating greens are very interesting to play, rather fast at 2mm this year with the slopes, but at current i am at HOC of 4mm, and the members are very happy with hard to putt on greens, i prefer slower greens personally, but golfers seem to want smooth fast 'Augusta' greens.
Does any won else wish to insult my intelegence?
25th Nov 2009 by Steve63
;) Nigel you have ignored me and my comments, nothing new there 
sometimes what you can plainly see with your own eyes is not so easy to visualise or explain via a forum such as this, I think that you probably will leave this forum alone for a while but truly hope you return in the future, however if you are going to finish with that last comment of yours you should really check your spelling to avoid further flack. 
Best Regards
Steve
From now on I'll keep my own Council
25th Nov 2009 by Sumomosr Last edited 25th Nov 2009
Hi Nigel and welcome to the forum (am I the only one who ever says that?) and please don't leave.
I applaude your openess and willingness to share your experience with Char in the first instance and others latterly.
I think you will have a lot to offer the myriad of readers here with your desire to adapt and make things work in your own local situation.
Mr Campey was offering an OEM advice which is correct from his position. The others are exhibiting the usual level of care and concern for our members who we don't wish to see come to any harm or suffer at the merciless hands of the OSH authorities (and other lawmakers who seek to make their jobs/tasks more difficult than common-sense would allow).
I for one would like to know a lot more about your courses and how you manage them and would congratulate you on succeeding through generations of the same family ownership it would seem.
If I was closer I'd come and visit but you're on the wrong side of the equator for me at present.
Nobody wishes you any ill will here. Please stay and share with us more of your 'empire' through the forum. If possible the PitchCare editorial team should pay you a visit with a view to an article in the magazine.
Stick around - we're a friendly and well-meaning bunch.
Regards,
PS. Congratulations on stimulating one of the most interesting debates on here (not involving talk of mergers and acquisitions) in a good while! Well done sir!
GOGGA
25th Nov 2009 by chrismitchell
Nigel. On the tractor concerned, Kioti, if the machine is fitted up with the pto slightly too long, as it lifts it becomes more compressed at the midway point of the lift. Thus shoving the tractor shaft into the gearbox.
I see your point about floating across your greens and am sure it works fine under the conditions to which you are using it. However under different situations on harder ground it could cause serious problems. As Sumo has said it is all about people concerned with safety and damage that could occure if others tried this on their respective sites. Not necessarily a personal attack on you and I would like to echo Sumo's words and say welcome and please don't run away.
You should have seen the stick I got a couple of years ago for daring to talk about backlapping! eh Sumo!!
Chris
Remember, never eat yellow snow!
25th Nov 2009 by Sumomosr
Hi Chris. Let's not go there...
How's the grinder going ? I had dinner with the maker of your machine last month when he was down here. Your name came up in conversation!
I actually have two incidences of broken PTO shafts in our workshop at present. Both caused by improper prop-shaft maintenance on trailed implements where the shafts were not greased and they galled so badly they didn't slide when needed causing the stress on the PTO to become unbearable.
That has no relevance to this debate but I thought I'd mention that it can happen , for a variety of reasons.
Anyway, Chin up Nigel! Courage mon brave. You're handlingyourself rather well. I forsee a bright future with your contributions to our discussions.
GOGGA
25th Nov 2009 by Neil Dixon
Nigel, i was not referring to the verti drain but the link arms on the tractor.
One of These can be adjusted up and down to assist in hitching machines, it may be the case that this has been moved.
On what is essentially a public forum individuals have to be very aware of the advice they give, as they are opening themselves up to critisicm / questioning.
If poor advice is given ( regardelss of what that may be) by anbody then the individual concerned has to be prepared to defend that advice, this you have done and ultimatley is your responsibility ( just dont expect others to always agree with your methods)
Please dont be offended if when any advice you offer is questioned or criticised, it is not aimed at a personal level, but just professionalism.
Regards
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
Sorry Steve, i thought i had answer your question, i certainly didn't ignore you.
See, even a spelling mistake and i have been pulled up on it!
If the machine hits something hard, then it will bend or break the tine. I am using the thinnest tines possible, i am not using 1 inch tines! We are running off the greens, and tinning the foregreens while we are at it, so we are bending and breaking the odd tine when we run off.
sumo, thanks for the welcome. Interesting my advice was directed at the guy called Char who asked for it, and he is the only one not to respond, was it all worth it i ask myself?
Making things work, interesting that, there are thousands of things available to us, but often home made things often work better for what we need them for. To be honest, when a problem occurs, its often challenging and rewarding to solve the problem.
Thanks to Richard Campey for his advice, all i said was that is mostly right, but not always, I don't think he will be offended by that, we all learn new things, none of us 'know it all'! He has many new machines though his dealership that we have never seen in this country before, so he more than anyone must be aware of new implements.
The others may have been offering there advise, but i think they were 'over the top'. The Heath and safety officer is more concerned over 'due diligence,' and if we as employers are showing 'due diligence,' and all our Heath and safety requirements are up to date and being met, then they are happy, the only change would be if there were to be an accident.
Our family business goes back to the war, which is why i said 60 years of tractors, my grandfather bought his first farm just before the war, and was using horses at the time. (even my father, now retired, remembers ploughing with horses when he was a child).
Thanks for the offer of staying, but i am clearly not welcome on here, seems very cliquey, as often forums are, i am just answering the questions that keep coming back on this thread.
You would be more than welcome here, as anyone is, and a shame your so far away, i bet its a bit warmer than here though!
Any of you or from Pithcare would also be welcome to come over for a coffee.
I will stick around, i enjoy reading the treads, but will refrain from posting again.
as for the simulating tread, i didn't do that, everyone did!
Thanks Chris, i wont be running away, the threads are interesing reading. I am aware of a PTO shaft coming closer together as the machine is lifted, and if it broke the gearbox, i certanly wont be buying a Kioti tractor, i will stick with the trusted John Deere. On hard ground i do use a bigger tractor (Fastrac JCB, on floatation tyres) and use a top link, The course at Widney manor is an old tip, and is shallow on top so in places, and we ofen dig up kerbstones and washing machines when we are Vertidraining there, so i am certainly used to the machine bouncing around. The safety issues are not relevant in my opinion, its a BIG chain, and i am not bothered about damage, i wouldn't do it if i thought it was unsafe or going to damage the machinery, and i am sorry about trying to give advice, i have said i wont do that again. I didn't see that backlapping thread.
Thanks, i accept its not a personal attack.
Sumo, i have had many broken shafts over the years, many due to not being greased, but also turning with the PTO in gear. Thanks for your kind words, but my discussion and contribution has just made me rather cheesed off for the last 4 days, and i really wish i hadn't bothered.
Neil, no i didn't check the arms for level, i think the adjustable arm seized years ago to be honest, we never use it, but the machine does sit right on the tractor, and looks level. I am very aware now of the advice i gave, and criticism i have received, as i said, i wont do it again.
Fishing is my hobby, i have lake called Barston, and often give advise of fishing and fisheries (I am also the chairman of the professional fisheries accociation, and the chairman of the UK angling championship), so i do enjoy the fishing, one day i will just do the fishing to be honest.
Poor advice, well that's a matter of opinion, and i am defending myself. That's why i keep coming back to this thread to answer the questions that seem to keep coming!
Thanks, i appreciate you saying its not being aimed at me personally, but you can see that is is taken personally, its hard not too.
Thankyou for the nice PM Barry, yes i can see that advice can be wrong on occasions, and i have stated that i will refrain from doing it again so it doesn't offend anyone. Thanks for agreeing that what i am doing is adaptation, and is as you say 'no probs'. Yes, i am from farming background, we have been in golf since the boom of diversity in the 80's.I do realise the level of experience on here, i have been reading for a long time, it just took a long time for me to become active. It happens on many forums. I did tell the forum my possition in this company, I didn't wish to disclose my position in the company, i didn't wish to be big headed or arrogant, i just pointed out my profession to clearly tell everyone what i do, and my position in the company, hoping to be taken seriously.
Thanks for all your kind words today and this evening, i feel happier this evening, i admit i went to bed last night in an awful mood!
Nigel.
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
I also took some pictures today.
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
You should be able to see the slack chain and the water being pushed on the forgreen on this pic.
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 25th Nov 2009
One more to show the finish (as this is what the thread is about!) Before being rolled with a greens mower too.
You can actualy see the line from the rollers on this picture too. On the next run it takes it out.
25th Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 25th Nov 2009
Just one more.
25th Nov 2009 by vid
Hi Nigel, great to read a new point of view and I for one am intrigued by anyone who can adapt a machine to fit the working requirements. It seems sensible to balance the weight the way you have done as this will lessen the weight on the front roller and although I dont use this machine I can think of others where this might work. I dont think anyone doubts the strength of the chain now!! but I really think my fellow posters could have directed their comments in a more friendly matter.
The H&S bods and insurance underwriters I have met wouldnt give a flying **** if you were using a chain that had been used by the titanic, they would only be interested in whether it was approved for this use and had been tested to take the specified load, the fact that it is obviously so will not carry any weight, but I am sure both Richard and Charterhouse will take it up and check (I certainly would in their position) and advise you if this can be considered safe practise. I think you have been wrongly criticised but you should push for a resolution just so that your insurances and H&S are watertight.
As a fellow turf maintainer my one question would be what benefit do the greens get at the moment if water is being squeezed out in front of the front roller. Personally I think this would be destabilising the 225mm profile and making it progressively softer - even sand when vibrated and stirred will form a pudding when excessively wet.
26th Nov 2009 by chrismitchell
Sumo, the grinder is just fine. Standing back and watch it relief grind automaticaly is bliss. Hope he said nice things by the way!
Chris
Remember, never eat yellow snow!
26th Nov 2009 by Sumomosr
Oh yes, lots of nice things - He said he loved the scenery, the food, the clean air, the weather, the beaches, the All Blacks... (Well maybe not that last bit!) Lol
Nigel: Great pics. Thanks.
GOGGA
26th Nov 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi Vid,
Iwould imagine the pudding as you discribe it is only occurring to the depth of the thatch and not the full 225mm. If the thatch was dense enough to hold moisture following rainfall a walk-behind greens mower would push water.
Nigel,
How deep is the blacklayer? I had it in my greens when I arrived here 4 years ago and sorted it in one season with the Sissis airade. I verti-drain (8mm) late spring and early autumn, while growth is constant and recovery quick. Followed by regular 100mm x 6mm solid tines and very regular sarral rolling (sometimes 6 or more times each week). I have no blacklayer or thatch!
I fellow course manager I know verti-drains with 8mm tines once a month during the growing season and very little else. He has limited thatch and no blacklayer.
We all have our own ways of managing turf. That's what makes this business so interesting, and experiences are shared by professional and amateur alike. Lick your wounds and get back to the business of sharing knowledge......
Its good to talk!
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
26th Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 26th Nov 2009
Ken, I'm sure you mean well but I'm not daft. I was assuming those pictures are recent, and from what Nigel is saying he looks after his greens very well. After the 10" of rain we have had since september the whole profile is saturated and a vertidrain more than any other machine will disturb the profile and shake it about - after all its what its meant to do!!
My question to Nigel was to maybe give him another angle to consider one professional to another - I personally cannot believe there would be a benefit to the green in the conditions in the photograph unless the surface (as you point out) is the only saturated part of the profile. I'm not trying to teach him to suck eggs but there are many occasions when I have been thankful for an outside view on a problem. I was just wondering if his over soft greens may be partly a result of vertidraining in wet conditions. USGA greens may be made of sand but this too can lose structure if disturbed whilst very wet - right down to the maximum depth of disturbance
26th Nov 2009 by Ken Barber
Hi Vid,
I did not mean to offend and I know you are not daft sir!
However, I do not agree with your views and as we all know.... that's the whole point of a forum.... to question and debate on the views of others.
No egg-sucking lesson intended here but a USGA green is designed to drain excess water once it reaches field capacity. This will obviously be effected in the area where this is altered by the denisity of thatch, since the thatch acts as a sponge. But below the thatch the sand will not... can not, become water-logged of lose structure unless it is of poor spec! That would predominantly relate the the percentage of particle sizes, but could include and/or be affected by the angular shape of the sand and even by the origin of the sand. Silica sand will not degrade as readily as calcareous sand. The depth of sand can effect a perched water table. Too or too little will effect how well it drain and at the other end of the spectrum, how much moisture the rootzone can retain.
All of the above could effect the density today and the subsequent thatch and blacklayer problems, and softness of them in the early years.
I noted that Nigel stated he had built the greens and wondered whether he had actually built them himself or that as the owner he was refering that he had hired a professional contractor to build them? At the end of the day the spec you start with is the spec you finish with. And a poor spec can cause all sorts of headaches and never really be resolved, unless you rebuild.
I remember in my early years, some said to me To assume is to make an "ASS out of U and ME"
lol
KB
a well balanced person has a drink in both hands
26th Nov 2009 by Mike A
Personally, I think that the chain would work well, and is a good idea in theory. This might be an area that some manufacturers will look in to in the future. Infact, on one of our toppers, there is a chain which runs from the top of the A frame to the rear of the machine - effectively making it a floating arrangement similar to the above set up.
Would I use this set up? No, would I recommend using it to anyone else? No. It would be my choice if I were to use that set up on any of our machines, and after seeing several accidents happen, I stick to manufacturers guidelines to the letter. If and when the manufacturer says its ok to use this set up, then I would consider it.
With all of the talk of the H&S issues relating to this, I would be far more concerned with the pto cover - not a dig by the way Nigel! Recently, a colleague and I worked out that a 540rpm pto would take in the full length of an average sized persons arm in about 3 seconds - there again, maths isn't my strongest subject so I may be wrong on that one.
An old colleague of mine had many years of accident free work. I was concerned that some of the practices he was undertaking, and ultimately, I left that job because of those concerns. Within two years of me leaving, he lost 2 (maybe even 3) fingers. Anyone's H&S record is only as good as what happens tomorrow. Where accidents are concerned, you can't allow history to dictate whether procedures are safe or not - pro active management is needed on a daily basis to ensure that accidents do not happen. Even as I type this, we are going through a messy claim for an accident that happened at work 9 months ago where a colleague of mine lost a tooth and has had some pretty significant damage done to his mouth, courtesy of another's 'bright idea' - I was off work when this accident happened. This point hopefully highlights the fact that no matter how good one's history is where it comes to accidents, they can still crop up when you least expect them to - this isn't aimed at you Nigel, just a general point.
Nigel - welcome to the forum btw - stick around, as i'm sure that you will see that everyone's input is genuinely with the best intentions.
Mike
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
26th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
Chris.
Just a quick response.
The photo with the front roller pushing the water is on the foregreen/approach, which we are doing at the same time as the greens, (running off the front) which are bone dry, there is no water at the front of the roller on the green, just the foregreen.
Being so dry, is the reason we built USGA greens in the first place of course.
Sumo, i felt a few pics would help with my Description of what i am doing, and trying to achieve,
Ken,
I am Vertidraining now and after xmas. I am as i say keeping the black layer at bay by aerating, i do have little forming at around 2 to 3 inches. I tine to 3 inch with solid tines with my procore, but like to get deeper (and though it) in the winter to help with percolation. As i said earlier, i am not relieving compaction, i am going straight in and out with no heave. I aerate once a month all year, either hollow tine, solid tine, micro tine, slit, vertidrain or sorrel roll, i try and vary the methods and depths. (obviously trying not to disturb the playing surface to much during the summer play).
Hi Vid, the pictures were taken an hour before i posted them.
The greens were built to the best spec by Nigel Eley and using WBB USGA spec sand to a depth of 12 inches.. (6 inch on the tees)
Mike, i cant believe you notice that PTO cover missing, it is impossible to grease with it in place, and was sitting on the tractor, it was been replaced right after the picture! I knew i would get pulled up on that one!!!!
Thanks for the welcome.
26th Nov 2009 by Mike A
"Mike, i cant believe you notice that PTO cover missing, it is impossible to grease with it in place, and was sitting on the tractor, it was been replaced right after the picture! I knew i would get pulled up on that one"
As I suggested Nigel, not a dig at you in any way - I was just surprised that it hadn't already been picked up on given the comments relating to H&S. Just call me an old stick in the mud for pto guards, covers etc!!
Mike
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
26th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
A picture from this morning of a green that was done 10 days ago on the other course, and as you see its fully recovered. (needs mowing i know!)
26th Nov 2009 by Cranfield Last edited 26th Nov 2009
Dear Nigel - as Editor I have been reading your postings with interest.
Please do not get too disheartened by the comments on the site. you have certainly spent some time putting your points across, and in the main the members have responded with some passion and interest.
That's what makes our industry so interesting, the wealth and depth of knowledge of our members is so far wide ranging.
However, it is important we encourage all members to post and seek advice or research information at every opportunity.
Richard Campey is a very busy man, however he and so many other top sports turf professionals do look and reply to messages.
That's what makes our site vibrant and interesting.
Yes, I would like to come in and have a cup of tea with you sometime and see for myself the work you do.
Laurence
26th Nov 2009 by vid
Hi Ken and Nigel - I bow to superior practical knowledge!!
26th Nov 2009 by Nigel.
After this weeks discussions, i have today decided to have a read though my Heath and safety manual to make sure its up to date. I have also checked my risk assessments, and had a read of the HSE guidelines. I have lifted this off there website. You will be surprised how relaxed there guidelines are, and as i have said earlier, its about self risk assessment. Obviously the whole lot would be too much for this subject, i was just trying to find some rough guidelines to risk assessment.
Please read this little bit and see what you think.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/index.htm
Despite the stories you hear, the HSE is about saving lives, not stopping people living. We’ve identified ways of making sure attention is on the issues that really matter.
We believe that risk management should be about practical steps to protect people from real harm and suffering - not bureaucratic back covering. If you believe some of the stories you hear, health and safety is all about stopping any activity that might possibly lead to harm. This is not our vision of sensible health and safety - we want to save lives, not stop them. Our approach is to seek a balance between the unachievable aim of absolute safety and the kind of poor management of risk that damages lives and the economy.
Principles of sensible risk management
With the help of research and the views of many organisations and individuals, we devised some simple principles of sensible risk management.
Sensible risk management is about:
Ensuring that workers and the public are properly protected
Providing overall benefit to society by balancing benefits and risks, with a focus on reducing real risks – both those which arise more often and those with serious consequences
Enabling innovation and learning not stifling them
Ensuring that those who create risks manage them responsibly and understand that failure to manage real risks responsibly is likely to lead to robust action
Enabling individuals to understand that as well as the right to protection, they also have to exercise responsibility
Sensible risk management is not about:
Creating a totally risk free society
Generating useless paperwork mountains
Scaring people by exaggerating or publicising trivial risks
Stopping important recreational and learning activities for individuals where the risks are managed
Reducing protection of people from risks that cause real harm and suffering
The principles were launched by Bill Callaghan, Chair of the Health and Safety Commission in August 2006
27th Nov 2009 by Barry Pace
Nigel, now look what you have done, you going to get me going on and on about the H & S ista that has spawned in recent years and the hordes of Safety Despots seemingly intent on making our lives a misery by the self justification of their being by the misinterpretation of what basically is common sense and care.
How on earth did we all manage to get home every night, before the days of risk assesments, when the good old HSE had bollox and inspectors that put the fear of god into employers rather than farming it out to this self serving industry that has tainted or is preventing too much of our lives from happening, when in reality it has nothing to do with saving lives, what they dont tell you is that deaths in certain industries are actually UP! despite all the red tape paperwork and hassle, its all about covering the people at the top of the trees backsides........
HHuurruummpp!!
Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......
27th Nov 2009 by Barry Pace
But it is here to stay and the reality bit is the safety ista's hold on this country is so strong now that the majority of people do not know any different, it is the way of our world now, no backsides covered, no insurance cover......
Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......
27th Nov 2009 by Sumomosr Last edited 27th Nov 2009
The chain top-link is used down here on occasion too.
We had one on a locally-made scarifier contraption. This machine was contra-rotating and was drawn along by the draft arms. The chain allowed it to follow the ground contour of the greens but kept it from tipping back when raised. Very effective.
I see them on agricultural implements too.
An alternative is to have a slotted attachment point for the solid top-link if there is enough room for a decent length slot.
GOGGA
27th Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 27th Nov 2009
Thanks you for saying that Sumo. That made my day, i wish you had said that a few days ago, lol.
The slotted top link is excellent, but as you say not long enough.
As I said earlier, I also use a chain on my seeder, I have 2 sorrel rollers and it follows the green contours perfectly.
Yes I agree Barry, that’s why I am pointing out that I am working within Heath and safety guidelines.
This week I have been:
Told i am doing it completely wrong.
Told i am running the risk of the roller marking the greens.
Told I am running the risk of making the warranty void
Been accused of gross neglect
Been told I have no common sense
Been told I am asking for trouble
Been told my suggestions are wrong
Been told I am unprofessional
Been told I am ultimately dangerous.
Been accused of not knowing the breaking strain of the chain
Been told that I don’t know how rusty or corroded the chain is!
Blah blah blah, I cant be bothered reading the rest again, all I can say its been an interesting week.
Thanks for your kind words towards the end, I was rather cheesed off earlier in the week the way I was treated, but started to enjoy the thread towards the end, I will keep watching, but don’t need the stress I have had this week. (then got the club this morning to find we have had a break in overnight, lost a full rail of clothes, and all 6 tills were wrecked, and lost the main keys, meaning we have had to change all the locks!)
If any off you are ever in my area, please call in and I will get you a coffee, or a beer if you prefer. The site is interesting, and I have read back 70 pages now, it took weeks, but I enjoyed it.
It was nice to meet you all, signing off now, I think the thread has come to an end, and I want to say goodbye before it gets locked, I think I managed to answer all the questions,
The courses are on WWW.WMGC.co.uk
And the fishery is WWW.Barstonlakes.co.uk
There is also a map on there, so please take me up on the invite, see you at Harrogate.
Best wishes, Nigel Harrhy.
27th Nov 2009 by Nigel. Last edited 27th Nov 2009
And a nice picture off the clubhouse, 18th green and the lake to finish with.
27th Nov 2009 by mwood Last edited 27th Nov 2009
Nigel I use a short link between the top link and the attachment (vertidrain, Rollermower). These allows either machine to follow the ground contours. It came with my wessex rollermower and gives much more freedom than a slotted top link.
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