Just wondering when you guys intend starting spiking thats presuming it wasnt done pre renovations.
Hi I spiked my square 2 weeks ago in both directions.
Regards Eddie.
9 Nov 2009 by k-hib
hi paul started spiking as soon as the pitch would take it and will continue to do so every 2-3 weeks weather permiting.regards karl
once a ransomes man allways a ransomes man !!!!
would be looking at starting to spike my square but would probably like to cut my square another time or two before spiking & fertilizing.
But has been 2 wet here to cut in the last 10days.
So will be waiting for better conditions.
For most it's probably already started. For me, I'll wait until mid December when everyone else has finished and the ground is well softened. Then I can keep the CGA spiker for several weeks and use it when the conditions are best, up until mid January.
Frosts permitting I'll be out there between Christmas and New Year, shivering off some of the Christmas pud excess.
The ciderman rolls
To wet too mow at the moment let alone spike.
bath
By that do you mean it can be too wet to spike if so what are the repercussions I think I know with regards to a drum spiker but not a vertical.
You need dampness Paul to allow the tine to penetrate deep into the soil profile. If the soil is saturated you are only going to leave holes in the ground with a shiny surface that will not allow moisture to penetrate. Often called skinning i believe.
In my situation the surface of the soil is that wet at the moment that more harm than good would be done to the soil surface.
In my absence today, my number two cut the square with the 36inch Dennis. When i arrived this afternoon the square looked a mudbath. Number two gone home so immediate bolliking over the phone. He better have a good cuppa ready first thing in the morning.
However, i have seen worse things and providing he learns from this experience then not all will be lost.
Cannot do everything ones self.
bath
May as well spike now and make it a mud bath, my number 2 is the same she wont help me at all.
Jon
What groundsmans association is that? I take it its a vertical spiker? How come you can keep it for several weeks?
Ive given up in Surrey waiting for a spiker to go on the trailer, thats why I am trying to work a deal to get one that a few clubs can share around here. Just need to organise the funding but that aint gonna happen for this winter so I have to risk it with my old Patterson which scares the bejabers out of me every time I use it.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
11 Nov 2009 by k-hib
hi barry the trailer is lincolnshires and a big county and jon very kindly keeps it at his village which is north lincs and nobody in the south can de arsed to drive 80 miles to collect and then 80 miles to take it back which means a round trip of 320 miles so jon is very crafty and lucky ha!ha!
once a ransomes man allways a ransomes man !!!!
Cheers Karl!
But what you describe is one of the problems of the trailers in a large rural county like ours. A one day loan turns in to 3 days at this time of year due to the travel time. It must be the same in places like COrnwall. So you're dead right, I'm lucky (and crafty). Since the trailer moved to the North of the county, no club south of Lincoln has used it to my memory.
The ciderman rolls
Barry, why don't you look into the option of hire, there is a company down in the surrey area called burdens turf fleet they also have a depot up here in lincs which i use and are very resonable and will cut you a good deal between clubs and i know they have vertical atcion spikers, maybe worth enquiring with them or other hire companys as purchase can be expensive for a piece of kit which you will only use for a short period of time.
Martin
The intention is to get one and for local clubs to share it and to charge a nominal fee to cover maintenance etc. In saying that, these things like grants etc take time but to hire one say 4 times over the winter is not cheap is it? I do have a Patterson that we bought second hand so it looks like I may have to hold my breath and use that again this winter.
Jon
At least your county has one matey. What I dont understand is that when these trailers came about, a lot of noise was made about having all the gear for winter renovation on them and I would have thought a decent vertical spiker would have been part of that.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry
I thought all the trailers were supplied with a groundsman vertical spiker. What happened to your trailer, who looks after it and who controls the hire of it to the clubs? Ours is controlled by the the groundsman association and the county cricket board.
Regards Eddie
Barry,
I echo Eddie's comment - the Groundsman spiker was on the original trailers. Our CGA has not added anything (other than turf retainer for the Groundsman this autumn).
The ciderman rolls
Ive had a demo today with a vertical spiker. There is some confusion over the situation down here re a spiker. One story was that there was one but no one used it and it was sold off, another is that a club now has it but you can still hire it. Another guy has been trying to hire it but has had no luck contacting appropriate persons and it was supposedly 50 quid. But the point is that even if there is one to hire, it may not be possible to use it on the day you get it because of weather.
Anyway, I am waiting on a price for an ex-demo model and looking into the possibility of buying it with 3 or so other clubs. Watch this space I suppose
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
ex-demo, like rocking horse sh................... poo
spiking can be done weekly no matter how wet as long as no damage is cause while carrying this procedure out, spiking has a range of benefits not only, gas exchange, aeration but it will help the density in your sward for the up and coming year..
Brian
everything happens for a reason
On wet clay cricket squares glenkeeran, the wheels of the spiker will tear the surface, bury the grass into the wet surface and make slurry with the disturbed surface. No chance of even walking on mine at the moment and still lots more rain to come.
13 Nov 2009 by Barry Pace Last edited 13 Nov 2009
Brian, apologies but I really must beg to differ on the no harm in wet comment especially as that could be misconstrued by the inexperienced or by someone looking for an excuse to knock. I do note your 'as long as no damage' comment but at what point does damage start to be recognised. when its rutting or when muddy water is being pushed out of the soil by the tyres/machine roller?
If you have absolutely perfect soil, low clay content, good organic structure, free draining etc then possibly won't do too much but the vast majority of soils will be destructured, capped and compacted by poorly timed aeration. Alright this post is about cricket and clays but the generalisation of aeration is all the same.
Forcing a tine or a blade into the soil profile when it is damp to at or around saturation will lead to the smearing of the walls of the hole through tine/soil contact, effectively closing off any air pores or spaces although this may occassionally 'crack' open when the time pulls out, but invariably creating nice little watertight voids which fill up and can actually make soil wetter and more unstable than if it had not been spiked, actually increasing anaerobic conditions.
The downward action of any machine creates compaction below the tine/spike/blade which we are increasingly seeing as Aeration Pans, formed just like a Plough Pan, through the soil profile at or just below the regular depths of aeration (3'' ish for hollow, 6'' ish for Spikers and 9'' ish for vertidraining, this affectively creating a nice barrier through the soil preventing downward water, air and root movement from the topsoil. What you can end up with is a nice loosened soil profile which will absorb more water quicker, sat over a layer that allows less water movement... the perfect mix for things to go wrong..
Alright sometimes there just isnt a choice, it has to be done to try and get a fixture on or to try and stop grass from drowning and as long as the consequences are recognised and when soil is 'fit' remedial aeration undertaken you can be lucky with this.
Invariably though 'knee-jerk' aeration, because it is too wet rather than preventative to try and stop it being too wet for too long, will keep people like ourselves busy forever.......
Regards
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
my appollogies, i didint mean to go out in floods.. but its a very important tool along with the sorrel roller.
everything happens for a reason
Ok Bath
Didnt know know you has seen the one in question 
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Brian, lol I knew the intention of your post, could just see that others may misinterpret the definition of 'wet' and couldnt agree more about the importance of all well timed aeration.
Regards
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
I dont know that i have Barry. Which make and model did you see ?
Thankyou Barry Pace for your long and informative reply. I to had visions of inexperienced, got to get it done men, paddling in slurry.
Bath
Tell you if and when anything happens.
I could be wrong but looking at the machine, there is not a lot that go wrong with it and even if 3 clubs shared it, its not exactly going to take a hammering is it? Probably be used about 12-16 times a year.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
I'll work on a track in the summer when it's way way too wet as sometimes that's the only way to get a game on - I know that damage will be done, but I'm only damaging one track and it's there for people (including me) to play on so I'll do it.
BUT that's in summer, in winter if I decide it's too wet then nothing will be done - it's not like I'm trying to fit some work in in order to get a game on 2 days later, waiting another week or two for the right conditions ain't going to hurt it.
Brian, please remember that cricket squares don't drain like many other sports surfaces - they're simply not supposed to. Yes aeration is very important, but aeration in the wrong conditions can do way more damage than good.
At the moment I'd guess you'll need a wet suit to get out to my squares - I doubt very much you could get any equipment there let alone actually get a machine to move on the squares. It's been that wet I've not even bothered to go to the ground for the past week - and somehow I've got to get it fit for a fireworks re-run next Sunday :(. I really could do with 3 dry days next week but I'm not going to get them.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
The ability to work in a wider range of weather conditions is another reason for volunteer groundsmen in particular to choose loam to suit their circumstances.
On my sandy clay subsoil here in N Lincs Ongar drains well and can be worked on pretty soon after rain. Despite heavy rain tonight (Friday) and tomorrow, I would expect to be able to cut the square on Sunday if needed.
In Rugby I used a higher clay loam on a clay based subsoil and it was a nightmare for drainage. With the right management it produced some super tracks, but it was a nightmare in winter!
The ciderman rolls
Just found out there IS a vertical spiker available on the trailer now. Going to try and get it through the committee to hire at least once soon, liasing with another local club when we both want it. But am still looking into my other idea cos of the problems with weather conditions being right on the day etc.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
17 Nov 2009 by IGS
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IGS
Presumably you must have soaked that wicket considerably before such spiking in June and must have a pretty good aerator.
How much loam did you put on after the seed in this case?
Also keeping a germination sheet on mid season would be, personally, impossible. Might be able to keep it on for a day or so but what with midweek practice, colts games etc that would be all.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
barry whats the problem with keeping the germinatiojn sheets on for colts games?, you are being far too nice to them, I leave them on for first and second team games, stretched tight and well pegged down there isn't a problem, after all you see 1st class games being played with them on and I can't remember which one but after some torrential rain they covered wet tracks with germination sheets at one of the test matches, you shouldn't get any problems unless the players start being arseholes, we are currently looking to get a ruling from our league to say you can have one sheet on during a game.
I also do as IGS the wicket is well soaked and a groundsman spiker is used I then overseed and dress at half the normal rate, getting as much loam down the holes as possible, you will have to do plenty of watering and rolling to close the holes back up.
Andy,Health and safety mate, Clubmark and all that stuff. No alowed to leave them down for league games either.
1st class games dont use the normal germination sheets anyway do they.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
As far as I know barry they are exactly the same and the club I am talking about has clubmark, this is tree hugging my little jonny claptrap, the ECB pitch inspector for our area regularly leaves his on for Yorkshire league games which is the ECB premier league in our area, how are you supposed to maintain a well grassed and decent quality square when you have your repairs kicked about and left to dry out all the time over the weekend period just when the seed has germinated. I will add that common sense has to be used here and obviously the sheets don't want to be on the strip adjacent to the one your using but if you plan your useage and use your pitches in different areas of the square then you can do it. This year especially with the renovation period being so dry and germination so slow this enabled me to have half the square as I would want it in April before the end of the season.
I believe the test match in question was Edgebaston Andy.
I certainly leave batting ends covered that are under repair.
Weak umpires occaisionally bow to player pressure and ask me to remove them, so now i make sure that the covered area is almost sodden, no arguments then. In fact, it is amazing what covering everybody will put up with when ground conditions are less than perefect and it means the game goes on.
In my case it is our second team skipper who complains the most. Or he did untill he happened to be at the afore mentioned Edgebaston test. Now he just looks at me and smiles.
When you mention the dreaded H & S Barry, surely a coconut mat has the ability to be more dangerous than a germination mat and again, bearing the H & S in mind again, how is it they let us hurl a hard leather ball at one another on many of the unreliable, under prepared and plainly not up to it pitches that are played on.
There you go barry baths an ECB pitch advisor, get this printed off and shown to your committe and as we are doing get onto the league committee to get a difinitive ruling that at least one sheet can be left on, baths comment about coconut matting is very valid and what about the adverts they peg to the outfield, thats not really any different to a germination sheet.
Thanks Andy, hang me out to dry mate !!
Hold back guys! You are preaching to the converted Im not the one who wants convincing. The league, players, parents, committees they are the ones.
Of course all of the above will complain wwhen there is no grass on a wicket come August.
Its all very well planning your wickets but in the case of colts, well unnder 11s and under 15s, I have no choice where they are playing, both the tracks are on opposing end of the square.
But I will tell you this after your comments, I will ask a mate of mine who is a senior umpire to put this point at the next umpires meeting who in turn may put some pressure onn the league committee and my mate is a shortly retired groundsman of some 20 years experience so maybe they might listen to him, I ll see.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
No offence meant Andy. Good idea Barry.
Non taken bath just trying to get barry some back up, it'a an area that seems to produce a lot of paranoia. I haqve never seen an accident due to the sheets, I would encourage paople t5hough to try and get some ruling from their league committees as it does make a huge difference if the sheets can stay on.
18 Nov 2009 by pacman75cricket
Barry if the colts are u15's cant you move there pitch during the season to use an adult used strip as same length only problem with younger ages as reduce pitch length.
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"He not busy being born is busy dying"
Hi Chris
Dont look too good that mate are you somewhere in lancs, if ya dont get rid of that soon youll av some of Barrys Canada Geese and Ducks on it.
Hope it dries up soon.
Just going to have a look at mine not been for 2 weeks got me climbing boots on to get over wormcasts.
Pacman, sorry I meant under 13's not under 15's. The under 15s play on full sized wicket obviously but when they play is out of my control to a degree. I use if I can one of my practice wickets towards the end of the square.Problem with using the weekends wicket for them is that would then be 3 games on it almost in a row.In saying that, towards the latter half of the season, thats what I sometimes have to do anyway.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry
Are you saying your u13s play on shorter pitches if so thats not the case with us
Yes Paul.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Agree, around here U13 = 21yards. U11 = 20 yards.
The ciderman rolls
18 Nov 2009 by pacman75cricket
same here u13 & u12 21 yards
U13 & U12 21 yds, but just to be different our U11's play on 19yds. I've absolutely no idea why they use 19 yd but that's the league rules.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Are you saying Barry, that despite the time and attention you give your square and pitches, three games in 3 to 5 days is to much ?
Depends on the time of year Bath and what day they play on. Later in the season when the track is being used for the second time round, it can be a bit of a problem to play on it 3 days in a row sometimes although i try and stop them playing on Mondays but often they will play on a Tuesday so its no different really.
Its not that 3 games in 3/5 days is too much, its playing on the same track in that period of time is the problem and i dont have enough tracks to use another wicket for them, in saying that I do sometimes and use one of the practice tracks that are one track in from either side of the square.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Well, the ex-demo is not an option as I have been lead to beelieve that ECB wont give funding for second hand machines and the quote was only 20% off. Also been lead to believe that you can get 12 and half % off price for a new one with certain manufacturers because of their arrangments with ECB, so might as well go for that.
Will take a while though, maybe in time for next year so in the meantime I am hiring a groundsman off the trailer for 50 quid which is fair enough and will at least give me a decent start before I pluck up the courage to use my Patterson later.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
The ECB 'WILL' fund 2nd hand machines.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Just need a 12 month warranty i believe.
Thats the problem.You wont get a 12 month warranty on a second hand machine, 3 months at best. End of story. Anyroad, if you take off the ECB 10% discount of a new machine and compare that to the 20% they were offering off the second hand one, it isnt worth bothering with. Also the ex-demo one is an ealier prototype version and parts apparently are harder to get and more expensive.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
What ex demo machine are we talking about Barry ? Ex demo and parts hard to find and more expensive. How old is this ex demo machine ?
Its a Sisis Arrow, about 18 months old.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Unfortunately that does not surprise me. Will it go the same way as the dart ? OK perhaps on bowling greens and user friendly for the over 70's, but yet to be confirmed as the machine for hard cricket squares.
I would be interested to hear from any body who has used this machine, on what i would call a first class cricket square.
How did it go ?
My concern looking at this machine is this, the way it is set up suggests to me that it would be difficult to achieve good depth in a hard square. It would appear that most of the wieght is towards the operator end and i think the pressure of the tines trying to push into a hard surface will lift the front of the machine of the ground.
Can an end user share there experience please.
HI, Is the Sisis Arrow the same type of machine as the Robin Dagger??
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
Well, we did 2 or 3 passes down the line the ends where it is more compacted than the rest of the square. It goes down to a max depth of 125 mms. It seemed to cope ok with this.
i wouldnt be using it when the ground is hard anyway would I?
But any experience from end users as you say would be most welcome.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Chris
Dont know but the Arrows tines are driven by 2 belts
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Obviously not the same. I used a borrowed "Dagger" a lot of years ago to use on a bowling green. A long (2ft) dagger driven into the subsoil then compressed air released.
Not the same, please ignore me!!!!!
Chris
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
Nothing like the same Chris.
Barry, i know where you are coming from, but my idea of spiking is to allow air in and to help fizzure the soil while doing so. This creates space for the roots to grow in. If the tines actually went in a full 125mm already then i guess your soil is light under the surface and that you have many holes with sealed sides. However, with all this rain around at the moment, i guess that it allows some water of the surface and that it will perculate down into the base.
No Bath
I didnt go down 125mm, I said it can go down 125mm. I dont think I have many holes under the surface and in fact it is quite hard (or was before this rain)just a couple of inches down. Its probably softer now.
Again if I had one at my disposal most of the winter, as is my idea, I would have last week spiked down just a couple of inches first to let some moisture get down and then a week or so later do it again but deeper. But because I will only have the trailer spiker for a day, I will have to go a bit deeper straight off I suppose.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
If you are only going to have it once, do just that. Deep as you can.
Cant afford to hire more really. I will have to have a go with the Patterson after that.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
22 Nov 2009 by Charles Johnson
First spiking 6 Nov still hard at 1-2", and new grass still bedding in. Second spiking 19 Nov much softer at 2-3", in two directions using pencil tines, after which I confess I overseeded thin patches.
Will have one more spike at full depth with new 3/8" tines before New Year.
Barry - you are welcome to try my Groundsman now I have a dinky trailer, happy to come to some sharing arrangement with you.
Now that surely is what this forum is about. Well done Charles. Get hold of him now Barry.
Bath
Ive sent Charles a pm.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
And use one old, one new tine per holder. You'll get to greater depth and not create the mythical pan.
The ciderman rolls
I only wish i had mentioned this earlier jon. Exactly what i do.
Perhaps your post should read, one new long tine and one old shorter one, say 75mm long as opposed to anything longer.
22 Nov 2009 by IGS
I use either 150 or 225 mm long tines, depending upon the machine - Why mess around with one short one long?
One can always use a long tine short but cannot use a short tine long
Buddha / Confucius / Walter Micklethwaite
Mark,
The machines that we are talking about will not take tines of the length you mention. I often use one long and one short for two reasons. When trying to spike a cricket square for the first time during autumn/winter, it is very often difficult to penetrate more than about 50mm with tines of the same length in a holder. Useing one shorter one often allows the longer one to penetrate a little deeper.
Later on i change the short tine for a brand new one when i then hope to achieve maximum depth. I also hope that alleviates the possibility of creating that dreaded pan.
Just my way.
Hi I use a groundsman spiker, but have no manual. Can anyone tell me the max length of tine the machine will take ( new tine) and if the machine can be adjusted to different depths?
Regards Eddie.
Eddie G,
Maximum length of new tine is 125mm. If you are useing the Groundsman 345 model, unless the ground is quite soft you may have difficulty reaching maximum depth, as an awful lot of power is required to spike to that depth and the 345 might want to jump around a little if the ground is hard. The heavier 460 and 460 sdr models cope much better.
Adjustment of depth is as follows. Left hand lever, the one that you lift as you drop the machine into work, has a 19mm bolt head. If you slacken this bolt it allows you to slide the plate back and forth. Fully to the front of machine is as shallow as it gets, fully back towards the operator is as deep as it will go. Anywhere in between adjust the depth accordingly. If you want to check what depth you are spiking to, carry a narrow screwdriver and place in hole, measure how far the screwdriver enters the ground to get your spiking depth. Not rocket science. The more worn out the tine gets, shorter, the further back the slide plate needs to be to achieve any sort of depth while spiking.
Brand new long tines and slide fully back is the maximum depth you will achieve, but only then if the ground will allow it.
These machines are so good, that when used on squares with layering problems, they are often accused of breaking the square up. This we do not want.
To those of you who do not know, a turf retainer kit can now be purchased for the whole range of groundsman machines. With this kit fitted, the turf no longer explodes as the retainers hold it firmly on the ground. Revolutionises the effectiveness of the machine. Should you require a kit give Groundsman industries a ring.
Another problem i have encountered is this. When the machines were supplied to the channel four trailers, they were supplied with 5/8 holders and 1/2 tines. A big tine to spike a square. Far better with 1/2 holders and 3/8 tines.
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