All
Just wondered what people think of this situation:
I look after a Parish Council ground used for football / cricket.
The football club rents the pitch on a game by game basis from the Parish Council.
Yesterday (after reasonably heavy rain overnight and a wet week) I looked at the football pitch at 8.30am and passed it fit for play.
Play started at 10 in heavy rain and by all accounts continued to completion at times on a pitch under water. The result is a pitch that resembles the ground following the 3rd Battle of Ypres! The football club state that once the ground is passed fit by the council full control passes to the Referee (who wanted to play).
My question here is that is there no responsibility as hirer of a pitch for its ultimate condition - can the home club have any say or are we totally at the whim of the referee in these cases??
if the sun is shining we need rain
You passed it fit, end of. Now you know what damage can be caused, call it off next time.
If the pitch has been carved up that bad, there is every chance that it will be unfit next time, even with the smallest amount of rain.
When referee's inspect a pitch, there decision is, i believe, is it fit to play. Not how much damage are we going to cause. They have no concern for the budget, if there is one, for repairs/maintenance or whether the pitch will stand up to play through the rest of the season.
Mr Pace might disagree with me on this one. It will be interesting to hear his thoughts.
Purley, we have the following procedure ( right or wrong!!!)
If there is any doubt with the pitches, i will meet with our master in charge of Rugby and director of sport( as is at the moment, footy next term) at 8am , for 10.30 Ko
If there is any standing water matches will be cancelled, regardless of the forecast.
If heavy rain is forecast but no standing water, then a decision is made on the ground conditions at the time, if it is felt the pitch could take rain then the game goes ahead.
as happened 2 weekend ago, the pitches were passed fit at 8am, by 8.30 they were underwater, by now visiting School has left, our boys were on the way in, so pitch inspection gets handed over to Ref, as Bath says, is it fit for play, i.e is it safe? they played and thankfully damage was minimal.
wouldnt say this system is faultless, far from it, but we may have 11 fixtures and schools may be coming from miles away so have to make the call early, sometimes we get it right, sometimes we dont, part of the credibitlity of calling of fixtures is also allowing fixtures to go ahead when conditions are safe but ground is still wet.
What would you do with the pitch(on little or no budget)after it has turned into a bog
Nothing you can do, or certainly not untill it is dry. If there is no budget dont play when wet.
Sounds like you will have to go and hire another pitch.
Lol @ Bath, and why would I disagree...
The fact is most Refs like the vast majority of footballers, coaches or managers do not have a clue about the collatoral damage of playing on a pitch in poor conditions nor do they need to when wearing the ref 'cap'.
The only factors they officially need to worry about are firstly safety, ie not frost hard/uneven, holes, debris on pitch such as glass/excrement, then weather wise if standing water or mud affects the roll/movement of the ball this being the point that ideally any sensible Ref would either call the game before or during as it makes the ability to play a pass impossible, but many can be pressurised by coaches to play especially if teams have travelled any distance.
The only other weather factors that will call are fog/rain/visibility and snow, had one myself, ground was sound, cold but no frost, then snow flurries started almost lost the lines and the linos twice but kept going as could just sensibly see, kept melting off just in time but was also mindful to not carving the pitch up anymore than it would anyway.
Like Neil says no system is perfect, you just can not plan on the weather doing what they say it is going to do, but it hopefully hasn't been too painful a lesson for you, if in doubt call it, especially this side of Christmas, theres still potentially 5 months of footy to go yet and you could well have the next 3 months of that being unplayable when maybe it shouldnt, just down to one game.
On the other hand if there are small areas of standing water, such as goal mouths etc clubs should be given the opportunity during the inspection to remedy this by forking/sanding and if they are able to deal with and improve a game can be played.
Its like the whole ref scenario, its all quite subjective and each ref has a slightly different personal view, set the ground rules yourself whenever possible to protect the integrity of the surface if your are in doubt.
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Good reply Barry.
I only asked for your opinion because i know you look after ground and referee. It was the reply i personally was hoping for.
There are far to many instance where games get played with total disregard to the surface and then get questions on here how things can be put right and often with no budget.
24 Nov 2009 by EHU Mission Control
I feel it is sound practice to stand your ground (if you can in these conditions) I have a set of ground rules which all the teams obide by luckly. I have phyisically shown them the distruction irrisponsible actions can cause, this is supported by a portfolio of snap shot of the results of their actions and the possible injurys caused.
Fortunateley, all useage r mis use is fully recorded and the control of use is soley my demain. weather (a small pun) or not others (Refs) think otherwise
My concerns are the result of playing when condition are to wet followed by hard frost, then the real problem start.
In a nut shell stand your ground, Lock away the goals and changing rooms as a last resort no goals no game. Cruel but kind
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
far better to educate those who use the facilities as to why they shouldnt play, and work with them, not against, common sense can usually prevail.
There is also the opposition to consider. How far do they have to travel?
If they're fairly local then you can bide your time before making a decision.
If, however, they've got a fair distance to travel then I'd err on the side of caution.
From the posh end of the room!!
Agree Aladdin, it is far easier to lock the gates if people aren't on the road, and when people are stood in the car park they dont care about the next 3-4 months games only the one in an hour or so, and a weak Ref may be swayed to play if managers say they want to regardless.....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
You do need to cautous when allowing play because i know this is more likely in rugby but people have drowned on waterlogged /muddy pitches . Duty of care comes into it. I know cricket is different but i make sure one of my staff is on the ground when matches are played so if it rains the covers come on and it isnt left to players to finish there game and ruin several pitches at the same time.
Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!
Surely the refferee has a duty of care if conditions are that bad wicketdevil.
I have found footballers in general can be reasonable, it is rugby players who just dont care. I was confronted at the bar one Saturday tea time by an angry player because i had deemed the pitch to wet. In a very intimidating manner i was being questioned as to how could the pitch be unfit, it is rugby, how can it be unfit. I actually had to put my unfinished pint on the bar and leave, such was the intimidation.
We all do bath sometimes in school situations it could be a parent reffing or an older boy who would take it if the groundstaff thinks it fit it is. Im sorry you where attacked for calling a match off there is no excuse i called a game off for the pitch being frozen when i was a society ref as it was a cup match there was a lot of anger until i showed them an area shaded by trees that was like concrete and ruted one scrum collapsing on that and god knows what injuries would have happened. The fallout would have been far worse than replaying the game a week later.
Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!
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Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
25 Nov 2009 by vid
Only councils on council run pitches get a say in whether a pitch is playable and can call the game off. The only other person who can call the game off is the referee - if he disagrees with a local groundsman and the groundsman refuses to let the game go ahead then the club will forfeit the game and be fined and be responsible for the oppositions expenses. The only thing you can do is be there when the referee makes his inspection and try to influence him. He cannot force a club to remove water or lift the ground with forks (this can have even worse repercussions for the pitch if allowed) and most certainly can be prevented from instigating such work. When you think about it there would be too much opportunity to 'work' the situation if this wasnt the case. However it doesnt allow for the ref being an ignorant, arrogant idiot which I have found is often the case.
The system is not perfect but put in the hands of individual clubs the decision is not safe either
Keep referee's away when possible. Call it off before they get there as they just want the game played if possible. They dont think about the future of the pitch
As Groundsman you know your pitch better than anyone,
Consider its present condition, if you have a big match coming up will you be able to repair it in time with weather forecasted. So keeping a check on as many forecasts as possible is a must.
Im checking our pitch every day just so i know its present condition so i dont miss the chance to get on it
Unfortunately, Stephen, that's not possible for many of us.
Dunno if there's only Councils who can call games off independently but we are required to have an inspection by a level 4 ref.
From the posh end of the room!!
25 Nov 2009 by vid
Thats my point Stephen its an FA rule that only the ref can call it off you cant!! He can disagree and put the game on and if you refuse the Fa will award the points to the oppo and fine you. Good refs will try to find out without travelling and you can advise them that the playing conditions are unsuitable but again only he can actually call the game off - as above the only exception seems to be council run pitches. This only applies to FA affilliated clubs and matches so not schools and colleges. It will make no difference what you know about the forecast there will always be the awkward b*&^ard who knows better than you and will not listen. If you've not met him yet (there are a lot of them) then you are very, very lucky
25 Nov 2009 by EHU Mission Control
It must vary from league too league, because our local league and leagues controlled by the county fa have the understanding where pitch's are on private grounds ie schools, colleges and universities or private land owners that the grounds manager or HG as the final say
NOT the refs
The future is bright, the future is EHU !
25 Nov 2009 by vid
I wish. All the above follows a phonecall I had with the Sussex FA - they were very nice but the upshot was that the clubs can have groundstaff present if they wish but dont make the final decision. I made the calls afer the referee had instigated removing the water with brooms buckets and forking - in one match he managed to completely destroy the 18 yard boxes and centre circle
Vid, at what league level we talking about with Sussex, my understanding was that if the pitch isnt fit and people have not travelled then it can be called off, its only when the ref gets there that he has the say, based on discussion with the captains and his inspection.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
26 Nov 2009 by vid Last edited 26 Nov 2009
At the time Sussex div 1.. It doesnt happen that often its just when some officious twit turns up at the ground after 2 inches of over night rain and says the game is playable once the water has been removed! I think if I had been there I would have a criminal record now!!
What makes refs experts at telling if a pitch is playable. In my years of playing sport although not soccer ive come across very few players or officials that have any clue on pitch preperation or fitness for play may be at professional level they get training but not at local league level thats for sure so lets try and use the people who know there grounds ,
Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!
WD, see my first post above, a refs remit with regard to should a game go ahead means they do not have to worry about the pitch its only a case of is it safe, can the lines be seen, does any standing water or mud affect the roll of the ball, can this be removed, do both teams wish to play.
The other side to the coin is that some teams if they are short on players or 'stars' are missing can and do use pitch conditions to try and get games rescheduled when they could maybe go ahead.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
If you were concerned for the pitch would it be "allowed" to not mark the pitch, saying it was too wet to carry the operation out?
Yes as a council we do sometimes call the matches off, the picture several posts back is a summer pitch.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
From our POV if there's any serious doubt about the match going ahead then we need, as said earlier, an inspection from a level 4 Ref. Not necessarily the match Ref.
From the posh end of the room!!
Does it depend on the level of the team playing and the individual county/league rules, as a rough guide I assume the top half/third/quarter would be viewed by a ref, sometimes a local one sent along the day before or that morning, and that most of the clubs at these levels would have their own pitches and facilities or have exclusive use of local authority ones. A level 4 ref would generally be looking after Supply League.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Yes Barry i Know the local council look at there pitches on thursday and call them off then even though they may have two dry days to come. We all want high quality pitches to play on but one game on a saturated pitch can ruin it for several weeks or months. Ian
Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!
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