I have just read through a recent message on the subject of worm casts, and much has been written about spraying with Carbendazime.
Something that I picked up on recently is the half life aspect of Carbendazime - it can be very short.
The more alkaline the water in which it is mixed, the shorter it's half life - even down to less than an hour.
What this means in practical terms, is that the higher the pH value of the water and the longer the spray is in the tank, the less effective the product will be on the casting worms.
Once the spray dries on the leaf, the decay stops.
Something else to be considered with this product, is that not only does it a act against worms, but also against fungus.
Like worms, not all fungi are bad - some of them play an important role in the breakdown of thatch. Thatch is something on which the worms feed , so there is the risk that over enthusiastic use of worm control will actually encourage worms.
Life!
Good Morning
HTB
All of what you said is very true.. worms are brilliant for the enviroment but the unfortunate the thing about it is the mess they leave behind. In saying that more and more green keepers are not spraying for worms but are brushing fairways and tees to knock the casts.
In relation to carbendazime and other fungicides, These products are all tested where the water ph is between 5.5-6.5 and the life span of theses products do decrease if your ph is high but to combat this WE/I use a ph neutrialiser liquid to our spray tanks which balances the PH in the water. This product is not expensive.
Brian
everything happens for a reason
11 Dec 2009 by korky
If worm casts are the only downside of worm populations is it not time for mower manufacturers to come up with a device to harvest/collect/disperse these worm casts as you mow. They could be reused as a soil additive later on in the season.I believe they would be beneficial to the soil. This process would take another pesticide out of the system and stop the slaughter of all the beneficial earthworms and fungi and other soil life.Is this too simplistic?
YES
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
But ideal
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
The longevity of most pesticides are effected by pH. I always add an acidifier to my spray tank to lower the pH to around 5.5 or 6.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Hi Ken
An interesting point. So by using the product you are dropping the pH of the solution in the tank to an ideal level for effectiveness and longevity enhancement? As a matter of interest, have you tested the pH of the tank solution before adding the pH adjustment product and after? Do you get much of a change in values and how are you consistant with such a practice?
I only ask as it's something I have never really considered before and would be interested to know a little more about this process if possible.
Its just got me wondering about our situation and i am always looking for new methods to improve what we are already doing, maybe it could be ideal at the moment, maybe not? I must look into it at some point.
Thanks in advance
dave
Learning is there for every man
If you mix to the recommende guide line and get on and spray, dont take a tea break untill you have finshed spraying, then i guess things will turn out well.
lol BATH
How simplistic :) ... as ken says, it is advised to use a acidifier in a tank, anyway it only costs about €10/ £6-8 per tank.
Brian
everything happens for a reason
Bottle of vinegar, 68pence, Job Done.
Compliments of the season to one" and all"
Best, Ian Mac.
And people said groundsmen couldn't reduce costs because all the cost saving had already been done......?
On this occassion I am 100% with Ian - we've had our differences before, but not on this occassion.
And if you need stronger acid - kettle descaler is usually pure citric acid.
The ciderman rolls
Lads lads...
if someone sprayed greens or other sensitive areas you could be responsible advising a fellow professional very very wrong...as i have learn before advise on the proper products and always advise they read the the label properly....
Brian
everything happens for a reason
Hell Brian, a bottle of vinegar in a spray tank is not reckless advise with the acid content hardly at ppm and more in tune to homeopathy. However if you are not inclined" try it on your chips! now" the gut, that is a sensitive area, especially at my age. Anyway, good luck with your staffing predicament. Ian Mac
14 Dec 2009 by Big D
By Alex Webster in Best of the Rest on 9th Nov 2009 10:00
This article appeared in Pitchcare Magazine
Issue 27 - October / November 2009
More research and development goes into producing pesticides than ever before, so why do we still notice inconsistent performance of the same products when used by different operatives at different sites? This is a question that plagues both the turf manager and the bill payer when dealing with professional turf.
This article intends to set out one of the main reasons for poor pesticide performance and to offer suggestions as to how this can be overcome so that you, the user, may achieve better pesticide performance, save money and, ultimately, improve turf quality.
With the simple management of the pH of your spray tank water it is possible to improve pesticide performance and reduce the number of ineffective applications through the season.
The main area of focus for this article will be on the process of alkaline hydrolysis and the negative effects this has on the performance of pesticides. The way alkaline hydrolysis effects performance is by speeding up the time it takes for a product to reach its half-life. This begs a couple of questions; what is alkaline hydrolysis and what is half-life?
We will begin by explaining the latter, as the concept of half-life is a simple one. Half-life is a period of time for something to decrease by half, in this case it is a pesticide product and the decrease is related to performance. As you can expect, this means that when a pesticide reaches its half life it will become half as effective. So, we can directly relate the half-life of a pesticide being reached to a drop in performance of 50%.
The half-life of a pesticide will differ across various products but, depending on spraying conditions, this can vary between a matter of minutes and a few weeks.
You may ask what makes this so important but, when you look at the time it takes from filling a spray tank, mixing the product and completing the application to your turf, it will take anywhere in the region of forty-five minutes to an hour and a half, regardless of how long you want a product to last for once it hits the turf. In this time, if your product has reached its half-life then much of the spray solution you use will be far less effective, even to the point of being totally ineffective.
Commonsense decrees that this then becomes both a waste of time and money if you haven't managed to get the full effectiveness from your chosen product, and your turf quality will suffer.
So, where does Alkaline Hydrolysis fit into all of this? As mentioned in the introductory paragraph the pH of your spray tank water is an often overlooked factor when spraying a pesticide product. Weather conditions and timing are often cited as reasons for pesticide failure and, whilst these factors must be taken into account as they are imperative, by managing the pH of the water used in your spray tank it is possible to gain the maximum effectiveness from pesticides.
Alkaline Hydrolysis is the name given to the breakdown of pesticide molecules in high pH water. The active ingredients of a pesticide will undergo degradation in high pH water, so it is necessary to manage the pH of your spray tank solution before mixing in any pesticide.
The optimum pH varies amongst products but, in the case of most pesticides, they will retain their most effective form in acidic water and, by being able to achieve a pH of between 4 and 5.5, it will enable the user to gain greater effectiveness from pesticide applications.
The observations you could expect to make from pesticide applications, where the product has undergone alkaline hydrolysis, will be as simple as an all round poor result, with seemingly low uptake or control of the target site.
A good example of this would be in the case of a greenkeeper spraying a fungicide, who will have an efficient spray run mapped out before starting an application. The first four or five greens sprayed appear to have good control of the disease, but the last two or three haven't done as well or, perhaps, a quick return of disease might be observed on those last few greens as opposed to the first few.
This is down to the fungicide having undergone alkaline hydrolysis whilst in the spray tank. This would lead to further applications being required, or the need to carry out the application of other products or mechanical/cultural practice operations to help combat the disease.
Likewise, in the case of herbicide application or worm control, product longevity is often queried, and it can be explained by high pH water causing an early breakdown of the product and reducing effectiveness.
As was mentioned earlier, pesticide technology has advanced to such a stage now that products, when applied in optimal conditions, will work incredibly well, but it is important to manage all areas in your control, of which pH is a major factor.
There are various options available to help with the problem of high pH, and one of the most recent additions to the acidification market is 'pHassist Blush', distributed by Tower Sport (Europe) Ltd. This is a formulation of acid and wetting agent, combining to create a highly effective, low cost water acidification product.
It is a very potent acid, the product has a pH of 1, but it is totally safe to use on turf, it won't harm the operative if spilled and it won't cause corrosion to machinery. This potency is demonstrated in the application rate of the product where 1 litre will reduce the pH of 300 litres of water from as high as 8.5 to 5. A colour changing formulation also means that it is very simple to use, as the colour of your spray tank water will change, with agitation, from opaque to a light red, when reaching a pH of 4.
This means there is no need for calibration before hand or litmus paper testing of the tank when the product is applied. It is important to remember that your spray tank water must be acidified to the correct pH before applying your pesticide, so to avoid alkaline hydrolysis.
To reiterate the key points made about improving pesticide performance; alkaline hydrolysis of pesticides can cause a rapid decrease in the half-life time of a product. This means that the effectiveness of a product can be greatly reduced whilst sat in your spray tank water if your ph has not been managed correctly.
Always consult the application instructions for effective pesticide use, but also check the optimum pH of a product to gain the most effective results.
It is far better to maximise the performance of a single application than it is to repeat an expensive application at a time when turf quality must be at its peak, and budgetary management is key
Big D
So, when having read the above, thanks for that big D, is the reason why i get good effect from applying carb for worm control in the rain, because with the addition of natural rain water to the ground as i spray, the ph has been naturally lowered ?
Good morning Lads,
That wasnt a dig and never intended to be, this is a debate and after all views have been expressed then people can make up their mind on whats best for their situation....
Regarding vinegar and citric acid yes i am not shooting it down but if i have a tank of 450lts of water where my water has a ph of say 7.4, what is the application rate of vinegar to bring my ph to 5-5 or 6.
Again i am not dismissing the idea, acually if it saves me money "brilliant".
Kind regards "and not big D"
Brian :)
everything happens for a reason
Brian,
Buy some pH indicator strips - you can get them from any decent home brew shop for a few Euros.
The ciderman rolls
15 Dec 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 15 Dec 2009
Brian,
That's basically what I was asking regarding the solution acidifying product. I know it wouldn't be practical to test every tank fill, but was just wondering if there is set amounts stated on the Acidifying product to bring down the overall tank solution to your desired pH level before spraying? If that was the case you would also have to know the overall pH of the water plus pesticide and
depending on what type of water source and pesticide were being used, variables may be apparent in the equation. Therefore in theory you would have to add more or less in certain situations to get your ideal overall pH value?
It's just a thought and maybe could do with some further research, or maybe I could just stop having crazy turf thoughts and enjoy my holidays in exotic Preston lol
DE
Learning is there for every man
The article is very interesting for me, as I manage a number of sites - three bowling greens and some private lawns - and have always wanted to do my mixing in one go rather than mixing and cleaning at each site.
I have tried this in the past with disastrous results; spraying liquid feed that was not freshly mixed, onto my own lawn, ended in the death of the lawn. I can only assume that the controlled release aspect of the product was affected, and three months worth of nitrogen was available instantly, burning the grass roots.
Using the acidifier would be simple enough for me, as I use relatively small volumes, and can get all the water that I need in 20ltr drums before I start to mix. This means that I can regulate the water's pH value first, and then go through the 'Half fill the tank with water before adding the product' routine.
I imagine it would not be so easy to do this with large water volumes, where I suppose you'd run a hose directly from the mains into the tank - you cannot alter the pH value after mixing and diluting the tank, as the damage would already have been done.
As for vinegar, the pH value of vinegar is not always the same. What is marketed by one company will not be the same as that from another company - and if you know somebody who runs a chip shop, they will buy it in a concentrated form and dilute it themselves. Try some in a fury kettle, see how little difference it makes to the lime scale.
Would that be a good "malt" ianmac ?
Eddy, HTB,
I refer you to my earlier answer. Buy some pH test strips and get the pH right. The following is just one place where you can buy pH test papers.
http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Acid_Testing_Equipment.html
Groundsmen will pay tens of pounds for a soil test so why not spend 20p on a pH test strip?
The ciderman rolls
Nah"" Bath, I was to face my demons six years ago when I realised that I was "not" The Ultimate Paragon of Liberalism! but just another guy who couldn't handle the water of life? So for me, it's diet coke. However, I do use malt V on my chips. For the rest? Take the advise of jontaylor and go and get a box of test strips (Remove the complexities from this; simple solution of stabilizing your tank mix) Ian Mac.
hi eddy....
if neutralisers is your option, firstly you will need to know your waters PH, then each product will have their own guidelines..ie to take down 1PH add 50ml ect ect..
Regards
Brian
everything happens for a reason
Hi Eddy21, Sorry I did not respond to your question, today is the first time I have looked at this particular post for some time.
I am fortunate to have a swimming pool at the hotel here, and they have a good pH tester for. So, first I found out the pH of my lake water, which is spring fed and has a constant pH of 7.6. I then filled my spray-tank to the required amount to cover one hectare added some acidifier. Through trial and error and testing a number of samples, I worked out how much acidifier was required to give me a reading of pH5 - pH5.5
I occasionally double check, by taking a sample to the pool attendent, who is always happy to test it while I wait.
I became more conscious about the pH of my tank water when I got into brewing my own compost tea.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
16 Dec 2009 by Eddy21 Last edited 16 Dec 2009
Hi Brian and Ken,
I must admit the pH of pesticides is something that I havent given much thought in the past and your methods make very interesting reading.
Gosh you learn something new everyday dont you? I must have a play round with that next year, as it would be interesting to look at anything that improves longevity. Personally, I dont think we do too bad with what we are doing at the moment but hey if this method improves things even further, well I'm all up for having a look at it and doing some further research on our site.
Thanks very much for your comments gents.
Best Regards
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Hi Dave, you might want to check the post about Hard & Soft water? Some interesting points and opinions on the pH of tank water are discussed.
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
It could dispell my theory about spraying for worms in the rain, but it still works for me.
Hi Bath, It works to a degree. If the chemical in your spray tank reaches its half-life quickly, as a result of a high pH, then it means the longevity of your control will be reduced.
I add a wetting agent to the tank in order to get the pesticide to the target area i.e. worms. Rainfall will assist in doing this as well, but if worms are active and rainfall isn't forecast ...... do you wait for rainfall to assist in getting the chemical in or add a wetting agent?
KB
The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.
Ken,
My worm treatment goes as follows.
I have never found i get a good take during September or early October when the soil surface is likely to dry.
The last two weeks of October i sun myself in the Canaries.
The first job i do when i return is treat my own squares, my contracted squares and bowling greens for worms. I have found that by then the soil surface is damp/wet and does not dry out again untill the following spring/summer. So i treat anyway, rain or shine. I usually find that at this time i am seeing the first wormcasts appear, but only one or two.
My next treatment is as soon as the weather warms a little in the spring, or during the first week of March anyway. By mid March i am poised ready to start my spring rolling programme and the last thing i need to see then are any wormcasts.
This way of working has never let me down yet. I never add anything, not even to the bowling greens, but i can see the reason why you may find that a wetting agent helps, especially in a sandy rootzone that is likely to dry quicker than clay loam.
As soon as my clay loam starts drying i never ever see another cast ever untill the soil gets damp again in the autumn.
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