I know there have been other threads on the subject of budgets but as prices seem to be rising rapidly I would appreciate any up-to-date views. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure for hiring a contractor to maintain 2 squares (19 strips in total). The first being at a high county league standard. Note, this does not include the outfield. This to include all work on square, including end of season work.
Thanks if you can help.
Tony
Depends where you are Magnum to a degree and what you want done.Some clubs do their own rolling for example.
Plenty of contractors knocking around on this site though. In saying that, down in leafy Surrey there arent that many contractors around.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
hi,
what part of the country are you in ?
chris
Sent you a PM Magnum
18 Dec 2009 by Martyn Snell Last edited 18 Dec 2009
Hi
I look after a club in nottinghamshire and 2009 season charged £130 PCM april to october.
And then End of season Renovation charged £180
The club supplied the loam and seed and scarifier.
Hope this helps
Based on 8 hours a week
and 12 hours renovation work end of september.
Club did their own rolling on a monday night when they trained then i rolled later in week
18 Dec 2009 by Philmort Last edited 19 Dec 2009
What exactly is included in this? Fuel? Mowers? Watering? Weekly repairs?
How many matches per week have to be prepared for, marked out, cleaned up behind? I had a technical hitch whilst trying to edit my initial response but note what follows from Brian - a little information is as dangerous as a little knowledge in the wrong hands!
Seems a remarkably low amount to me ! I would expect to spend a minimum of 10 hours per week on a decent sized square, then there are the maintainance costs for mowers.
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
well,
just be carefull what u post in, u might put other cricket grounds men under pressure if u maintain u can do it at the cost... their managers might start to cutting their budgets back
Brian
everything happens for a reason
19 Dec 2009 by Andy Matthews Last edited 19 Dec 2009
glenkeeran is right just be careful what you post, thats why I did mine via a PM, Martyn you charged £130 per month for 6 months, thats £780 at 8hrs per week for what is 30 weeks thats 780/240=3.25 an hour. I can only presume you are doing this on the side as opposed to a business, either way you are doing nobody any favours, this has been discussed before at length on this site, but while theres people out there willing to work for such low ammounts of money then cricket clubs will never come into the real world, the £130 a month should be more like per week, I am sure I am not the only one tearing my hair out when I see such posts.
Added:I would say 10 hours per week minimum for a decent quality square, I also always quote for 2 hours per week in the as a nominal ammount just to keep everything neat and tidy
8 hours a week to look after ( properly ) a square? I wouldnt like to play on that.
I notice no mention was made of any work being undertaken in the off season, I suppose you just whack the seed on it in September and leave it until the following April then.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
£180 for renovations Barry. Plus loam seed and scarifyer.
Like Andy says, sounds like a job on the side.
Magnum
Its like anything else, you get what you pay for. One thing I would say is that Mr.Snells idea of pricing and the idea of how long it takes to do proper job , leave a lot to be desired.
Like he says the club does their own rolling on a Monday and he does it again once later in the week. 2 rolls if you are lucky in a week when you say one square is for good county standard, its a joke.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
19 Dec 2009 by Mike
Difficult to put an exact figure on it without more details. Much of it will depend on what type of loam the squares are based - a heavy loam such as Kaloam will require more time input that a lighter loam such as Kettering.
Rather than ask such a generic question, you need to identify exactly (or as near as) what your requirements are - do you supply any machinery or is the contractor to use their own, what is the square made up of, standard (which you have already touched on), are there any underlying problems which would need to be addressed, what age groups will be playing, how many matches need to be prepared for etc Once you have identified exactly what it is that you require, you can then set about contacting any contractors. Once the contractors have a detailed plan of what you require, they should be able to quote you accordingly. The less information that you give, the less accurate any quote would be - giving ball park prices without all of the necessary information is a dangerous practice and usually comes back to bite both the club and the contractor in the backside in the longer term.
20 Dec 2009 by vid Last edited 20 Dec 2009
I dont have the luxury of time or a budget that would allow me to do more than 8hours per week (assuming 1 pitch prep 1 pitch repair). We will do the repairs on the outgoing pitch and do the initial clean and prep of the new strip and set up the travelling sprinkler to water the square after - 1.5 hours. Later we come back and thoroughly rewater the strip twice and all the repairs again (1" water supply) - .5 hrs. This is followed by a single pass with the roller when the surface is still moist to flatten the top - .5 hrs. There then follows several preps and rolls totalling 3 hrs. 30 mins to mow the square, 1.5hrs final prep and marking out. That leaves .5 hrs for extra work per week. Obviously this is expanded or contracted slightly dependant on the level being played and we would tend to do another hour of prep and rolling for representative matches. At least once per season we achieve maximum points for the pitch, so 8 hrs is adequate. Junior strips, midweek matches etc are planned in separately. We would spend longer on the square if we were paid to do so and it fitted in with the rest of the programme.
I do however totally agree with some comments above - if you are not working at a commercial rate (3.25 would be illegal) then you are effectively volunteering a large proportion of your time and therefore your rate, Martyn (please dont be offended), is not relevant to a professional rate. This is not a labouring /unskilled task.It involves management of time, budgets and match requirements and skilled use and maintenance of equipment especially if the equipment is old and requires a lot of attention. On top of that it requires experience and knowledge, and an ability to communicate with players and commitee members. The absolute minimum should be £8 per hour and the part time wage (considering travel, admin etc) realy justifies a minimum of £10 per hour - in a lot of cases this would still vastly undervalue the service given.
So Vid
What happens to management of covers? You say "we"? Is there more than one of you working at the same time?
You say the time spent is adequete and yet say you would spend more time on the square if you were paid (and I dont blame you for that), therefore it comes down to what you are paid, as opposed to what is ideal.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Ben magnum,
I presume that its not you that works on the square, but its you who has taken on the task of screwing the present contractor/sole trader down, so you can spend more on the other important expenditure items, such as photographs of the team, the annual ball, or maybe delux sandwiches.
Its not illegal if a contractor/sole trader puts a bid that only pays £3.25, its just bad , and i bet that everyone in the club and your visitors will be moaning if the wickets are not at the highest possible standard. no one wins in this situation.
My up to date view is for you to draw up a specification of work you require to achive the standards you want, and then go out to tender, not a ball park figure.
whats is wrong with the present contractor and his costs.
20 Dec 2009 by pacman75cricket
As a volunteer I have spent about 12-15 hours a week at my club.
I have also looked at the possibility of becoming a contractor & think £10 is still on the low side once contractor has costed travelling costs?/ NI/tax pension sick pay etc.
I have found although 12-15 hours i have produced good pitches but could have been better with more time.
Depends on club what standard they require & have budget to match.
I may look at being paid by club this year but maybe along the lines of Martin but I fully appreciate that this is not commercial rate but still volunteering a majority of my time to the club i love.
20 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi Barry, we manage the covers during the day and the club from then on, about 5 minutes per move - no sheets. There is always more that can be done but after the amount we presently do it is mostly cosmetic and I couldnt say the extra rolling has much effect. No club I know pays for their staff to come out and see to the covers out of hours - that is to my mind for the club to sort out. What else would you have us do in season. Most of the extra half hour is taken up with watering in dry spells, after that we would be at a loss as what else to do. The we refers to the business collectively but the ground is managed by one person and the hours spent are man hours - this is only activity on the square there is no allowance for the outfield
No verti-cutting, power brushing or any kind of spiking carried out during the season then vid ?
20 Dec 2009 by vid
Verti cutting with G860 = half an hour every 3 weeks, no spiking in season, power brushing on current strip only
I know the club that Martin refers to - and yes, it's a partial volunteer rate and not his main income.
For myself, I do in excess of 2500 hours a year for the princely sum of £0.
You're welcome to criticise the standards that are achieved for such an appalling rate of pay, way below the minimum wage.
And you're also welcome to suggest that I'm putting a professional out of a job.
Others will correct you, Martin amongst them
Some clubs really cannot afford to pay, and some volunteers do a decent job.
For me, it helps relieve the stress of a day job that doesn't involve grass. For others, it gives them the freedom to try the skills that they develop in their day jobs without the freedom to test themselves.
Martin is lucky to get any pay for what he does on the side, and the club involved get the help of a trained groundsman for a fraction of the price that they couldn't possibly afford to pay if he charged a full rate. Keep it up fella.
The ciderman rolls
2500 hours a year jon, is that in your main job, your volunteer work, or both combined ?
No problem with what anyone does. I volunteered for over twenty years without receiving one penny. I am now full time employed on a salary and manage my own small turf maintenance business.
When money is mentioned, i think it is only fair that an explanation of what is done should be mentioned.
In my contracting role, i could not even look at a job for the money mentioned above, although i have been asked. Vans to carry machines to site, buying and replacing said machines, paying wages, national insurance, public liability, fuel, the list goes on and the very final number is profit. The only reason that business survives. A dirty word to many, but just ask yourself or your boss what the hourly cost of employing you is, whatever line of work you are in. Some of you may be staggered at the amount and then look again at the figures that get mentioned on here.
In my volunteer days i always reckoned to spend ten to fifteen hours a week during the summer on the square. The same job is now managed by me under contract to which ten hours are assigned. Usually there will be somewhere between 70 to 80 games, including different age groups, played a season.
Jon, no-one is decrying the efforts of the volunteers that I can see. I do about 12 - 15 hours voluntarily per week for my club alongside someone else, on 2 squares and outfield, hedges, litter, etc. plus several hours of paperwork, including committee work for the club and 2 leagues. etc. (I daren't total all this up in case my wife finds out!)
I happen to also be employed by a contractor (well known on this website) to look after cricket squares and bowls greens and the point is that the origin of this thread was a request for cost of hiring a contractor. The majority of the responses have been geared to that and the natural thread caused by the prices quoted for the apparent hours done.
Very few of us are unaware of the shortage of cash in true grassroots cricket or even in many Premier League clubs, in spite of the "huge" amounts of money donated through the ECB from Sky ! (Tongue well in cheek, from someone who can't afford Sky, there.)
Proud to serve grassroots cricket
jontaylor, great post agree wholeheartedly with you, clubs will only pay what they can realistically afford. Why should a village club for instance be run the same as a top league club? There is, and has to be a place for volunteers otherwise the game will be a lot poorer.
Hi Bath,
2500 hours is an embarrassing misread off my records spreadsheet (the wrong axis). The correct figure for my hours is 440 and the 2500 is the total miles driven by volunteers (tracked for our CASC claim)
The garage cidershed was being too good last night!
As for the original post, Martin's response offers clubs one way of hiring a trained contractor for less than the full profitable rate. If clubs can find someone who is working their way up the ladder and give them the chance to take a "headgroundsman" type of position, perhaps they can expect to pay below the full rate. This is exactly what is happening to today's graduates for whom a period of "Interning" is increasingly the only way to get on the ladder.
The ciderman rolls
Vic no one said that village clubs should be run on the same basis as premier league clubs, but the original question wasn't posted by what would seem to be a village club, a high county standard was asked for and they have a second square, no doubt they also have an overseas and perhaps pay other players as well, I may be wrong as the details are sketchy from Magnum to say the least, it'a also interesting that magnum and martyn snell havent replied to any of the replies, including my PM (magnum), did anyone else bother to give a well thought out list of works and prices like I did for magnum, I did wonder at the time whether it was just so he could frienghthen the club again, I am a cynic I know. Cricket at grass roots needs volunteers it's the only way they can survive, but many clubs at higher levels should take a close look at how they maintain their squares or in many cases don't maintain them, just as long as theres enough money for the mercinaries then the bloke that grafts his bolloxs off for in many cases a pitance, that many of the clubs committee wouldn't get out of bed for is never given any serious consideration, which is why I am increasingly careful of what I take on in regards to cricket, for in many cases they want the world for the smallest possible outlay.
Yeh I know bar humbug.
Andy
As you say, clubs have to cut their cloth accordingly. But as you say, high county standard is not village green level. I know that in the so called affluent south in Surrey, cleaners get £8 an hour cash often. It is also very true that many clubs, again down here and I suspect nationally, pay overseas but also other players, often to the detriment of the playing surface and genearl facilities. In the Surrey championship, many clubs pay players often at the expense of the ground whcih in my opinion is wrong. In fact some clubs have had a sugar Daddy paying players to climb their way up the division whilst their grounds are not up to the standard that should be required.
Some clubs have been refused entry into the upper echelons because their ground is not up to spec whilst they have been spending small fortunes on players who will disappear as soon as the money dries up.
I suppose this is on par with so called amatuer football, after all, the standards of cricket in the Pemier leagues are comparable with say the Conference league in footaball if not higher as it is one step away from the pro game in some cases.
So competing at cricket at these levels is not east if one does not pay players, even in the current economic situation, although the coming season will be interesting to see how many mercenaries are still getting paid. In the Surrey championship recently, players having played a few county second eleven games have been asking for and in some cases getting silly money and they often aint all that, such has been the desperate search for success.
In my humble opinion, the way forward should be to provide the best ground and faacilities you can, run a well organised colts set up to breed your own players and give kids a chance to play cricket who dont get it at school and create a good atmosphere and social feeling in the club.
The hopefully you will attract some decent senior players as well who are not sadly looking for money in their boots but who just want to play cricket on good tracks and with committed other club members.
It is interesting how the originator of the post has not come back though.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
21 Dec 2009 by vid
Good grief guys none of us on here have denigrated the role of the volunteer you are all a fantastic and necessary part of the game, without you most village grounds would not exist.
I think you have missed the point the professionals here are trying to make - if you offer a price for doing the work that in no way can be considered a commercial rate then you are denigrating all those hard working groundsmen and contractors who need to derive a living wage from their efforts. If clubs are contantly told that the ground can be done for £3.25 per hour then they will offer this or a similar rate instead of generating the funds that will pay a groundsman properly! Why is it that cricket seems to think they should play their very expensive to prepare and short seasoned game for next to nothing compared to other sports.
I feel I am being criticised (mildly admittedly) for 'only' giving the square 8 hours of my time!! At the reasonable minimum rate I mentioned that would be £80, + 8L fuel (£9), + 1.5 bags of loam (£6), + a handful of seed (£3) + a couple of tons of water (£5) a share of the maintenance and renovation, winter and 'wake up' and pre season rolling costs over 20 weeks (2000/20 = £100 [on the low side!!]) and the cost of contract mowing or otherwise the outfield + marking out - say £25. That works out at £228/used strip maybe 2 matches - thats £114 per match. How many clubs are charging £10 per home game before umpires and teas are even considered.
The figures above are really bare minimums, if you can get a volunteer great, if you cant then these figures are on the low side and the books have to be balanced. If you think that the pitch costs less than £150 per match in real terms then you havent done your sums! If you expect to pay less then dont expect a professional who needs the wage to be interested. To expect an experienced and skilled groundsmen who needs paying to receive less than £10 / per hour is verging on an insult to the profession. Thats what we mean by the posts above - to suggest that £3.25 (sorry Martyn - definitely not getting at you, just using your figure) is an ok rate is misleading without qualifying the statement.
Think a few people are getting a bit touchy over this subject.
Some six years ago, I was made redundant from my position as a full time sole groundsman, working for one of the most wealthy men in this Country. His arrogant estate manager decided the job could be performed, as well, by a contractor, despite such a source as Harry Brind telling him it wasn't possible. The contractor who took on the job has recently resigned stating that he is embarrassed to have his name associated with the ground in it's current state. I might add this is nothing to do with his work, rather the general upkeep following constant cut backs. Another contractor will now go in and do the job for less and the standard will further reduced.
What I am trying to say is that there is always someone who will do the job for less and the club/employer simply needs to offer a fee and people will take it and let's face it there are plenty of people out there who don't care a fig about the pitch they prepare for others to use. Also club chairmen etc are perfectly entitled to use money on players rather than facilities.
Gents,
As the originator ,sorry for the late response, but I moved house on Friday and it has been chaos in my life for the last couple of weeks!
I have had a PM from Andy and I have concluded that every club is unique and there is no right or wrong way to approach this subject. There is also no magic formula you can apply. Rates will also vary quite significantly across the country. A largish club like ours will also have much more going on than the smaller clubs. It is not a regular pattern of events and therefore difficult to cost. There is also the quality issue. Quality costs time and money. I thnk a club like ours is more suited to a "fulltime" groundsman, rather than a contractor. Similarly, you would need a very dedicated volunteer to cover all the work.
I agree with many of the sentiments already posted. To pick a few. Leagues down here in the SE are quite rightly pushing the standards up by, insisting on minimum levels of facilities/pitch standards, grading systems, pitch performance marking, liaising with local councils about maintenance regimes.. etc. This is all good stuff.
Budgets for Overseas Players are massive in relation to overall club budgets and at the higher levels it is almost like an arms race. For this reason I think OPs should be banned.
Players have a strange attitude to how the strip plays. They will moan/praise the strip but in reality they will play on what is given to them whether it is good or bad. The idea of paying extra subs to make improvements is not liked. It is only the committees and leagues who really care or take action to improve things. Even then the committee would more willingly invest in an OP for the short-term kudos it brings to them.
Most clubs dont understand the details of square upkeep and pitch preparation and therefore cant budget properly and wouldnt really know how to drawup a proper contract with a contractor. When you add this to a largish club, there is problem in getting the right level of quality at the right price.
What would be nice is a "union" type hourly rate for labour only. Obviously, this would vary around the country.
Thanks for all the views etc...
Tony
In the interests of fairness after my last post magnum did reply to my pm and then as suggested on the main site here, which is all good.
It's interesting how this thread has raised a lot of old issues, such as paying players as opposed to groundsmen and of course what an hourly rate should be, this would of course be significantly different to the industry standard for greenkeepers etc because we are self employed, I have going 18 months, the likes of bath and my mate Panch considerabley longer, Panch charges a much higher rate than myself but because he's been going 15 years and has a wider reputation he's still got work coming out of his ears, which is good cos he subs it to me 
, also how do you set a rate when we all have different ammounts of equipment and experience and as we know it's the machines that cost so much, the fact is the clubs have to make an informed decision based on whatever information they can get about any given contractor.
21 Dec 2009 by vid
Rough deal Vic - proves a point though - if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. The estate manager sounds like an idiot but there are an awful lot of the like about - those with power but no knowledge or any real managerial ability (in which case they would be able to listen!!)
From talking to a fair amount of groundsmen and contractors it would seem that the average annual costs for materials / sundries and labour for a typical 12 strip square and outfield maintenance would be in the region of £12,000-£16,000 based on him putting in about fifteen hours per week and supplying all materials and machinery to do the work.
(Mowing the outfield alone based on a low rate of £50 per cut will at two cuts per week cost a club some where near £3000)
So in essence we are looking at a figure of at least £9,000 for maintaining the square, so in affect it costs about £750 per strip which on average will facilitate at least 5 games (400 overs) thus the cost of each game is effectively costing the club £150.
As we all know most if not all clubs rely on volunteers workforces that do the work for nothing, with the clubs only paying out for specialist services and materials.
How much longer will these volunteers continue to work for nothing remains to be seen.
Vic
A good Chairman, if he genuinely has the club at heart, if it is his money, will spend money on the ground and not just on players. If he spends it just on players, he is not, imo, really interested in the club but more in his own ego.
Ben
Hope your move was not too traumatic, Xmas and all.
You indeed will be better served by a "fulltime" groundsman, finding one is another matter who can afford to do it and who is capable. This is not meant to denigrate contractors at all. Finding deent contractors can depend on whereabouts you are.
Banning overseas would simply push up the price for the mercenaries that are UK based and probabbly bring down the standard to a degree at the top.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
21 Dec 2009 by Mike Last edited 21 Dec 2009
Just worked out what it costs us to prepare a track, taking into account average wage, materials, fuel costs, machinery purchase, depreciation and maintenance etc. Comes to a grand total of £154.66.
So Mike
At Mr.Snells rate, thats about 50 hours to do a track.
Seriously, I notice he hasnt come back on this one.
Its horses for courses financially but at the end of the day you get what you pay for to a degree.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
22 Dec 2009 by Mike
I'd add to that comment, Barry. Sometimes, you get what you don't pay for - there are many clubs who have excellent tracks prepared for them by people who don't get paid a penny
I totally agree Mike. Without dedicated volunteers , club cricket would not survive. Also I think cricket groundsmanship is a job that prodcues the best results not by just havinng a load of experience but also by TLC. You can aqauire knowledge and advice as this site is a great example of but TLC comes from within and can be linked to the time available.
However,the original post was inquiring about how much it would cost to pay for services.
I have worked for a contractor who would charge according to what clubs could afford, probably because the contractor was thinking that any work was better than none at all.
This does not always end up with the best results but it may be as good as the club can afford.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Our club based in the Surrey Championship seem to have achieved a reasonable balance over the last few years. There was a time when we were paying OP's circa £3.5k and putting something like £1.5k to the square maintenance. As a result the pitches were always a bit lively to say the least.
Last season however, the ground costs had risen to £3,750, consisting of machinery maintenance and materials only, and our OP cost £900 (- if there was a better player in the whole championship I'd be suprised).
As a cricketer and a groundsman I can see both sides of the argument. Using agencies to get unknown players is both expensive and a gamble. The last few years we have used contacts to pick up 18-22 year olds who are just happy to play a bit of cricket and having a bit of pocket money. This has left much more money available for investment in juniors and the square.
22 Dec 2009 by Mike Last edited 22 Dec 2009
Pardon my ignorance here, but what is it that these overseas players do exactly, aside from play cricket? Do they just play cricket and get paid for it, or are they utilised in other areas of the club? Can they also be used to aid the groundsman? I'm not saying that an op can replace the groundsman as they most probably won't have the skills necessary, but is it feasable to say "you will be paid x amount for however many months, during which time you will work x amount of hours per week as an assistant groundsman, and play in however many matches?" I might be way off with this reasoning as I don't have any experience of overseas players, but its just a thought.
Mike, your overseas player is with the club for a season predominantly as a player. Some clubs then make use of that person to help out on the ground. Some are great and buy into the whole club scene. Others are rubbish and do nothing unless paid. I have seen both. Yes they can help the groundsman no end or they can spend a bit of time bumming around the club breaking kit by miss use and generally being a pain. For some reason people think if they employ an overseas, he must be of benefit to the ground staff. Personally I think the overseas player business is widely overused, however, it is here to stay and committees have the right to spend the club's money how they choose.
22 Dec 2009 by Mike
Interesting stuff, Vic - cheers for clearing that up.
Vic
Legally, you are wrong. They should not working at all, other than playing, if they are a current or recent pro and have come in under a Sponsors licence
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
22 Dec 2009 by Vic Demain Last edited 22 Dec 2009
Legal advise from a man who shoots a catapult at the geese that choose to graze on the cricket pitch he looks after, gold.
Vic
Funnily enough, I do know what I am talking about on this subject but obviously I am not omnipotent as some on here 
So I bow to your superior knowledge of the border agency controls.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
This is a big thread so before I repair to bed and whilst I drink a cup of Horlicks I would like to tell you how I get paid, not what 'cause its not a lot!!
Basically I get paid for 16 hrs work a week, all year round, which goes into my bank account.
From P S R time until about the end of October I get paid for any extra hours I do "cash in hand".
Throughout Winter I do less than 16 hrs so I get in deficit. I keep a strict record of the hours I do in a diary, together with what I do and come Spring I work these hours back. There are also my 4 weeks hols which I mark as "even" which I take in Winter.
As I said earlier I will probably work these off by April what with P S R and the usual early Spring work.
When I took this job on (Aug2008) I said I was only going to carry on until the end of Autumn 2010 as I will be 65 in May 2011. During 2010 there might be someone around who fancies learning the job and in 2011, if I am still fit enough, I do not intend to desert them and will be around to sort problems and help out.
The treasurer was not keen on paying a groundsman an annual salary only for him to do only what was necessary and go home and neither did he want to pay someone an hourly rate, for the hours he put in, all year round as this is open to abuse as well.
I agreed to this set up as I am not going to be doing it for a long time but what I will be interested in is just what the club will do re pay and conditions for whoever follows me.
Just looking after a small, Premier League ground is never going to pay someone a living wage IMO. When I think of all the members and cricketers at this club, except for two, there just isn't the willingness, again IMO, to get the job done regularly and properly, from unpaid volunteers. Not a sustainable proposition!
So budget or no budget there are problems ahead for this club unless they can find another semi retired person,"like what I am!!"
We shall see.
Chris
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
23 Dec 2009 by glenkeeran Last edited 23 Dec 2009
sorry but here i go again,
Lads/Ladies
Every groundsman/greenkeeper work off different situations ie soil types, staff ect!!!!!!!!!!!!
I personally would ask if all groundsman/greenkeepers please keep budgets, hours and conditions of employment private and confidential.
Every groundsman have individual issues which should not be shared openly on a forum.... private PMs are ideal regarding this issue.
Brian
everything happens for a reason
Chris,
I hope no one from the Inland Revenue reads these posts.
As Glenkeeran says, keep pay and hourly rates to yourself.
An interesting thread, as somebody who is considering looking after a square in my own time next season there is a lot to appreciate.
One aspect that has not been raised is one of my main reasons for probably doing the job. i.e.
The ground has good equipment which includes a roller, this is an important part of pitch preparation that I have no practical experience in, so by taking on this square I shall be able to progress my skills, experience and knowledge of cricket pitch management. The club that use the square were disapointed with the match surfaces last year and I know that I can improve things as I have at my works square with minimal input, a bit more effort with better equipment and I should make a good fist of things for both the club and my benifit.
The pay is largely a side issue for me in this case, the club will be able to pay a little which will cover my expenses and I will commit to improving the surface for them and improve my groundsmanship.
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
I don't think the inland revenue will be interested in me getting a few "beer tokens" Bath. It doesn't amount to much and if they did "come on top" they can be assured that i will not do it any longer. I am sure that they have much bigger fish to fry than a pensioner getting the occasional backhander.
I thought I made it clear that i would not mention hourly rates and i didn't.
The point is that I wonder how small clubs, who have to employ a groundsman, find one who is prepared to work for peanuts!!!
Confused.com
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
Life hasnt taught me that much that I have learned from but there are certain people I do not trust and take for granted, the Inland Revenue is one of them, Bath and Glenkeeren are right.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Chris, you would be surprised in what the IRS would take an interest in.
Our OP is employed by the club. He is contracted to play (obviously) and also coach various age groups within the club. When he's actually got a spare hour or two (which wasn't often last year) he'll come over and give me a hand on the ground.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
JL I am a Old Pensioner not an Overseas Player!
I think I'll cut me wrists now.
Off to see the an Orthopaedic Surgeon this aft' so if he decides to operate on me back this spring I may not have a job at all!!
Pass me the walking stick please
Chris
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
LOL.
My OP (old) helper has saved the club many 10's of 1000's over the years using his skills as a motor engineer to rejuvenate bits of kit.
My other OP (overseas) equally has his uses - he seems to think that manually moving piles of earth (with a shovel of all things) is good for his fitness. I don't complain as it means I don't have to do it and the saving from bringing in a digger is money I can spend elsewhere - only 2 more piles to go this year :)
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Chris lol
I hope the back is ok. But its just the times we live in, what with the recession etc.
Easy targets, although you might think and are indeed very small fry, it can be easier for the powers to be to be lookiing to so something rather than stop the flood of economic migrants or catch out the greedy bankers. It makes their figures look better andd everything is statistic driven these days so Governments can massage figures eh?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
At the end of the day there is a cost in time, money and resources to produce a safe, consistent cricket wicket for play. Ideally every club at every level should identify these costs and then review what they can afford.
For most cricket clubs they rely heavily on volunteered labour, however, a cost should be attributed to their time spent working at the ground. I see far too many cricket clubs operating on a poor infrastructure, with poor equipment and resources.
Many clubs rely on volunteers putting in at least 20 hours a week of their time to prepare and repair wickets. Based on a £10 an hour rate then the club would have to find £200 per week just to pay for there labour, If we assume the club volunteers are working regularly from March- October (8 months) this would affectivily bring the total annual cost to £6400 for labour alone. If we then add the cost of materials seed, loam, fertilisers, pesticides, fuel, machinery repairs, servicing and end of season renovation work which may be around £2500. The combined annual cost based on these figures come to £8900, you may as well round it up to £9,000 a considerable amount of money you may say for many clubs to find.
But in the scale of things the cost of annual maintenance is relatively a cheap in terms of what value it brings to the club, without the pitches we have no Cricket. For a club operating with 50 playing members, they would all have to contribute £180 (£3.46 per week) to cover the annual maintenance budget calculated above.
Clubs should really be setting appropriate budgets for the running of their clubs, having volunteers should be seen has a bonus.
Sports clubs are all about participation, without people.,we have nothing, so it a case of attracting, stimulating and addressing the needs of the members, well looked after facilities attract members and players.
There will be some tough times ahead for many cricket clubs, especially on the volunteer work force front. I can see a demise in the level of volunteer participation in the coming years, I do not see many youngsters volunteering to work for nothing?
Happy Christmas and New Year to you all
Cranfield
And your figures dont allow for care of the outfield,care of surrounding vegetation, trees, bushes etc. Whilst I agree About the cheapness of it, most clubs dont have anything like 50 senior fee paying members, so the cost per senior played is probably at least double the figure you mentioned so if one was try and cover it through subscriptions, the subs would have to be about £400 a year! This is a figure I have worked out before. Thats why clubs have to be more commercially aware than ever before and look to raise monnies through many other channels. Its hard enough getting members to cough up £100 a year subs let alone quadruple that!
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
As i have said before. How much cricket in this country is truly sustainable ?
Bath - not much is sustainable. But it's been 'non' sustainable for many year and yet games still go on.
Amazingly, to defy the odds, I've had two new volunteers come forward this past summer. One same age as me (who also acts like he's still 20) and the other is only 14. How long they'll last is another matter :)
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Yep - its always been a struggle. I can remember the days when a group of us used to gather in September to do the end of season work, armed with a scarifier that would just about do your back garden on a good day, several shovels and a huge mound of loam to spread after we had hand spread what little seed we had. Plus little of no proper knowledge of what we were doing ( yes I know, not a lot of difference in my case now!)
Most clubs exist for years on a handfull of doers and hope that when they die or get too old, someone else takes over. Maybe its just my club but Im quite optimistic (not my normal thinking) that if you get youngsters involved from an early age and thhey develop a true love for the game, they take over eventually.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
23 Dec 2009 by Pitchcare Peter Last edited 23 Dec 2009
As many of the articles on this website and in our magazine show, volunteer groundsmen are what keeps club cricket alive. That is true, perhaps to a lesser extent, in bowls, rugby and many 'social' clubs up and down the land.
Sport is something that gets into your soul and, when it does, there are some people who simply want to improve the facilities at their club, whether that be the playing surface, the clubhouse, coaching or the membership numbers.
There will always be a sprinkling of members who strive for improvements. And there will always be members who turn up, play and bugger off at the end of the game (usually to the bar).
Cranfield (Loz) and others have tried to put a value on this volunteer work but, quite frankly, how can you? Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed my time at 'my' cricket club and spent twenty years doing all manner of things in an effort to improve all aspects of the club.
The bottom line is that I have some treasured memories from that time. God knows how many hours I put in and, quite frankly,that is irrelevant. It is the soul that drives the volunteer and, whilst I recognise that it is not sustainable, it [the soul] continues to provide volunteers keen to ensure that the clubs survive.
Happy Christmas to you all
Peter
I dont mind people boogering off to the bar, that seems to be happening less and less these days.Many from all sides just play and go off.
My attitude has been not to moan about the players who just play, cos without them we have no clubs. I too like you Peter have obtained a tremendous amount of satisfaction over the years, more than I ever did from any day job, in doing various jobs within the club, great memories and have made some lifelong friends.
But Im just a sad old cricket junkie, ask my Missus, she deserves a medal. Ive indoctrinated 2 sons as well, they have the illness now as well.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Well , Idid go to see the surgeon, or at least the bloke who stands in for him and after a 45 second fiddle about with me, he says"all we can offer you is an epidural".
I have had a couple of those so if i get a bit of relief it'll be something. Meanwhile I am going to lay it on at the doctors' next month and see if she can get them to treat me as well as a foreigner.
I look forward to the vibrations of the roller in March (No I dont have it on vibrate, before you say owt). I always think after a couple of hours on it my back feels a lot easier.
Chris
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
Maybe a good osteopath Peter. Ive great success with them after a Surgeon recommended that I should have a spinal fusion, advice which I ignored thankfully.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
If the vibrations from rolling provide some relief then I'd suspect that surgery might not be required. My next port of call would be as Barry suggests - a good osteopath. It's always worth asking around at the club, you might be surprised how many of the member use osteopaths.
At least 4 members at our club use one - and he does the first half hour session foc so you can find out if it's of any use to you without having to shell out.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
24 Dec 2009 by Mike Last edited 24 Dec 2009
Chris - do you know what the actual problem with your back is - muscular, degenerative disk disease etc?
The guys above are right, a visit to an osteopath would be a good first port of call. A common cause of low back pain is poor hamstring flexibility, so a bit of physio can help if this is the cause. Also, have you ever tried acupuncture - can work wonders for back pain.
I agree with the acupuncture Mike. Had that to put me right 8/9 years ago and still go every three months and have a back service. Worth every penny. Agree about hamstrings or lack of them. My Physio laughs every time i go at the lack of Hammy.
Four years ago i laid a patio for a friend. 3 x 2 flags and i had to move them from front of house to back using a barrow. Same with the 2 tonne of hard core.
I did it and a few days later i couldn't walk. I was eventually sent for an M R I scan (after 18 months!) and I lasted in the tube all of 10 seconds!!
Frightened to death and got on the motor bike and flew home.
I have tried all sorts of the above and i can cope but lately the pain is in me hip thigh and shin. I have good movement of the spine and can touch my toes dead easy.
I have a superb deep tissue massage twice a month.
House is full so will have to go. Built a "Snow Woman" this morning, just for a change. Boobs dress, the lot but camera at work!! Typical.
A Very merry Christmas to You all.
Chris
"He not busy being born is busy dying"
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"He not busy being born is busy dying"
24 Dec 2009 by Mal
Damien Hurst - maybe?
Merry Christmas all
Mal
Geography is everywhere
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