Where ever possible it is my preference to complete all tasks "in house", unfortunately however, with the next project this is not possible.
My experiences of using various contractors has resulted in mixed satisfaction over completed tasks.
My question is, what do you guys look for when employing someone to come in and do a job on your grounds?
I see many people who come in and talk a good game, but would they be up to the job if awarded a contract?
Is it a question of paying top whack or seeking references from previous clients?
Does the contractor have the ability, machinery, qualified and well trained staff, to complete the task to a satisfactory standard?
How can we be sure when spending thousands of pounds that we are going to get value for money?
Vic.
29 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi Vic, as a contractor myself who is proud of our work, I expect to be closely questioned about our quality. The best way to find out about quality is to ask other people or go and have a look at/try out what has been done elsewhere. Make sure you question the contractor on exactly how he intends to carry out the task. There should be a clear specification so that quotes can be properly compared and the contractor should be able to answer any questions that arise out of the estimate. Beware contractors who give little else other than a quote or ones that put a lot of information in to the tender document but very little site specific information, dont be fooled by a lot of technical info but look for information on your own task. Ask about quality control methods and availability of quality control documents such as a works log.
Hi Vic
I dont have much experience of this but am presently going through a process of trying to evaluate 3 quotes from reputable companies for developing a new second ground behind our existing ground ( 8 track square and outfield ).
All outfits are professional and have made site visits. What I have to do now is sit down with some committee members on the development side and make sure each quote is like for like and to raise any queries we may have.
Also contacting previous customers is a good idea I think.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
29 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi Barry, contacting previous customers is vital - probably the only genuine way of making a comparison - ask for a list of all similar jobs - that will leave you to pick which one to talk to. Myself I am happy to supply contact numbers for all my installations.
Vic
It's important to get a very precise specification of the works you're planning.
This can be done in a number of different ways; the 'traditional' method has been to employ a consultant or project manager and for various testing to take place on site in order to draw up a site specific Bill of Quantities for what you intend to do. Then the consultant/ project manager checks throughout the works at various stages that standards have been met so that the works are of a qukaity that ensures you get what you pay for. Simple drawback for this is expense as this is not a cheap operation but it does give you expert backing if you get the right person/company to take on this role.
Alternatives on jobs that I've been involved in involve a club / organisation member carrying out this complex role- it requires understanding the contract from top to bottom so no easy task, but I've known it to have been done successfully in several instances.
With reputable contractors such as the likes of vid you can expect a complex specification to be drawn up which is site specific, and through testimonials you can help assuage any fears you may have about suitable or unsuitable contractors. There really are some good contractors out there.
Whatever you choose good luck with your project Vic.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
29 Dec 2009 by Mike
Agreed with all of the above. It is clear that you are a vastly experienced groundsman, Vic, so you can impose that knowledge on any potential contractors. It is incumbent upon you as the Head Groundsman to select the right contractor, or at the very least, make the right recommendation to whomever it is that makes the final decision at your ground. Grill the contractor, seek references, go and have a look around their operation/other jobs etc. I speak from experience however, when I say that recommendations can sometimes fall on deaf ears - especially when the final decision comes down to the money men, and they inevitably go with the cheapest option!
We had some major works undertaken on our fields earlier this year. We didn't give due care to the selection of the contractor who undertook the works, and now we are looking at several thousand pounds to rectify this problem. The KEY mistake from my point of view was that we did not stipulate that tolerances to work to or a guarantee period were not included in the contract. Being the one charged with tidying up this mess, I have spoken at length with the contractors and asked them why they undertook the job in the first place, when it was clear that they could not work to the standard that we required - their answer was that no standard was laid out for them, and if they had been instructed to work to the spec which I have set out to remedy this situation, they would never have undertook the job in the first place.
From my point of view, it is absolutely critical that the contractor understands exactly what the customer wants, specific tolerances must be included in the contract, each stage of the works must be 'signed off' by a consultant or the customer before the next stage commences and a water tight guarantee must be included. Most unsuitable contractors would either hold their hands up and say "we can't do this", or would be unwilling to tie themselves down to the contract. So for me, its a two way thing - what you do as a customer can be equally as important as what the contractor does.
Mike
First, the club must have a very clear idea on what they want.
Second, always employ an independant specialist to draw up the spec and provide a bill of quantities specific to the job.
Third and only after the other two, ask around for reputable contractors. The independant specialist should be able to recommend a couple at least.
I now take on square constructions and re levelling useing laser guided technology, but i will not consider pricing for a job unless the first two are in place.
I am amazed at how often i am asked to price without a specification. I always lead the club to an independant advisor and work from there.
The times i hear of stories like Mike A expressed. Spend thousands then thousands more to correct the faults.
The number of clubs who think they can put someone up to project manage to save a bob or two. Very often a contractor could run rings round these people, eventually costing the club more.
Apart from everything, i want to be known as one of the best, reliable and honest, not just a quick buck earner. How many contractors have staff that are passionate about sport, about what they are constructing and why ? Most have someone in the office who has a good idea but they employ machine operators, not construction specialists.
In my opinion, anybody who has a complaint about a contractor only have themselves to blame, mostly for not following the above.
Rant over, lets hope for a better new year.
Thanks for the feedback so far. It is clear this is a problem area for more than me. Like Mike A, I don't want to be left as a scapegoat after recommending someone, who turns out to be not all he had promised.
To employ an independent surveyor/specialist as for example the STRI, could add a huge amount to the final bill, when every treasurer is going for minimal cost. Surely if a contractor offers a service, he should have the power to deliver what is offered.
It is good to hear that there are people out there who take a pride in their work and no doubt do a good job.
vic, there is nothing wrong in having help in project managing/ specifications, particularly if its not a job that you are fully conversant with. Even a contractor of good repute cannot swallow variations to contract, because of " i did not know that" . Extras/ variations are great for contractors,extra money on top.
Conversly you do not want a confrontational situation during the works because of misunderstanding over what is required as the spec. was not clear,and you are not going to pay for work so far completed
AS an extreme example, the scottish parliment building, the wembly stadium, massive over budget spends.
What ever you put in the contract as safeguards , there is nothing better than a contractor that has completed lots of projects, and wants you to contact those satisfied clients.
29 Dec 2009 by vid
I am absolutely staggered by some clubs that are investing 10s of 1000s of £s how much faith they put in me at times and how little attention they pay to the project as it progresses - I have been to several 'nets' constructions where the customer doesnt turn up at all until the project is finished! They are lucky to get me as I am at each construction for a large amount of the time and our quality standard is not bettered by anyone - but even so I would like them to have the satisfaction of knowing that the job has been done well.
Ok hope you all well.... cos I'm not....
Bath!!!! welcome to the Special Contracting Club where an undescribable psychotic OCD like need to be the best is prerequisit.....
Contractors... now I am not going to sit on here an bang my own drum nor slate any competitors, there is a vast choice of good reputable companies out there that will value your custom and do a damn fine job for you.... its how and who you choose that counts...
THE most important point to start with.... know what you want... draw up a brief, a specification, your requirements, What do you want......
To what Standard... be realistic
You wouldnt walk into a car dealership and say 'I want a car' you would know what range would suit.
If you dont know then you should be employing someone like STRI or other equally experienced consultant agronomy practice to advise you.
This is the basis of your enquiry and upon which a Contractor should provide the best priced solution.
Ask for an itemised Quote, let them show you what exactly they have allowed for.... in detail..... this has to be provided..
At what point do you want to take over.... as soon as seeded, full germination.. be clear as to when responsibility is to pass over it again has an influence on cost.
Check us out...... it is so simple.. ask.. good contractors will give you any number of references, personally I prefer my last job, ... ok not everyone has perfect jobs every time... we collectively as contractors dont always have an easy ride, I would never want to comment on a fellow contractors abilities without knowing all the facts too... worst rainfall for 20 years... dodgy consultant with manic or outdated spec... far too late order and poor germination.... no irrigation despite being told there would be... Client decides to slash budget half way through.... client decides not to pay half way through.... Client unable to maintain a window box as the equipment hasnt been purchased..... (Only had the rain one personally in last few years but have seen or heard of others)
Ultimately it is your budget that should dictate the quality, how you formulate the inclusions the variation in how much you can squeeze in, it should not be down to who has the cheapest price...... If you are comfortable that the cheapest person can and does regularly provide a quality job for people then go for it... if not.... chose the next one.
Vid, you are as far as I assumed working fully under the ECB approved umbrella... you are all supposed under the 'terms' and description to give a gold plated job.......... regardless
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Vic.... The trouble is its this piece of string that we are asked to price... just how long should it be... and idiotic bits of paper stating PQS do clients no favours this is as broad in interpretation as no spec.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
You have lost me Barry, sorry OCD. Cant tell if i have upset you or not. Shame if i have.
It sounds as if most of what i suggested you have agreed with. Please enlighten me. Happy 2010.
30 Dec 2009 by vid Last edited 30 Dec 2009
I'm with you Bath, feel I've rattled his cage - dont know why.
BTW Barry the ECB sets a very high standard, but it is still up to the contractor to comply with it and the ECB/client to make sure the standard is complied with. Equally importantly the ECB should be informed when the standard is not met - quite often the standard is not kept to, the ECB does not have the resource to check, the client hasnt the time and when it goes wrong the ECB is not informed - so the same contractor goes on to do the same poor job for someone else
Barry,
Thanks for your input, all very interesting.
I know exactly how long my piece of string is, I actually think I'm pretty good at my job and have confidence in my ability. My simple concern is, when the contract is awarded, will the lucky company have the same desire as me along with the kit to supply a first class facility which my club are paying good money for?
We currently have an ongoing project at the club - which I wasn't involved in - where excavation started mid December, we now have ruts all across the outfields, a hole full of water, god knows when the contractors will return or what the final results will be. Sure these guys hit bad weather, but, should they have been there mid Dec? For me in this instance both sides are at fault and a job which should have taken two weeks will drag on and on.
Vid, thanks for your advise, which I shall look in to.
My sentiment is with you Vic, but as you say, why would any contractor tyake on a job like yours at this time of the year ? How often would the weather have allowed the job to be carried out successfully at this time of the year. Why have they not put tracking across the outfield. Specifications should cover all these eventualities but i say a good contractor should automatically have these things covered. It sounds as if whoever within the club is responsible has egg on there face. Why is it that you, who puts on first class cricket, were not consulted ? Do the bosses think they know better than you ? A few years ago i applied for the job you have Vic, am i glad i was'nt good enough.
Interesting stuff chaps.
Presumably, if the ECB is the main supplier of funding to a project, they will have a large say in the process anyway.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Bath, my guess would be that the contractors took on the work at this time of year to keep their sub contractors employed during this period, rightly or wrongly. As for tracking, specifications etc as I stated, I have not been involved in the planning so don't know. Why haven't I been consulted? Probably internal politics. Do the bosses think they know better? Isn't that the case in most situations? I believe you applied for the job a couple of years before me, so can't comment on why you weren't offered the position, all I do know is that I have been in position for four seasons now, longer than anyone else in a number of years, and intend to continue, so I am not prepared to be lead down another path of destruction.
Barry,
You know I am not going to knock the governing body. They may well have supplied funding for the project which I am not involved in but I fail to see how they can have much say. As vid has already pointed out the ECB don't have the resources to police all projects and frankly why should they?
30 Dec 2009 by vid
Bath/Vic, there is an element of truth in what you say - I too have started a project in mid December and have been held up by the present weather. Difference is I dont need to travel across the outfield which is why I started this one. You are right that we need to keep work going during this lean period and so we are more than prepared to take the loss of profit sitting around waiting for the weather to change. It is my responsibility to clear up any mess.
I have priced up getting roadway in place but this is very expensive for heavy plant machinery - ply sheeting will not do! So long as the contractor is keeping to a single track this is comparatively cheap (compared to roadway) to decompact level and reseed. However if this is work on the field of play rather than the edge then I would agree it shouldnt have been started.
Another factor of course is Sport England (government grant provider) who have set a deadline for this years work of 31 March. Probably the absolute worst possible final deadline date as the weather up to this point is unpredictable and all turf surfaces soft. So at a time of maximum pressure field conditions are at their worst. The ECB are aware of the problems we face but are unable to shift the Government target dates.
I currently have a difficult work load where customers need to comply with this date, if we dont take on the work we will miss out on the majority of the 1st 6 months work, as there is normally a 2-4 month gap whilst the new budget is actioned.
This is intolerable for most of us contractors and here we do need some sympathy. We need to use every bit of good weather that we can to keep these projects in date it therefore forces us to get on site and progress the job, however slowly, in order to comply. If there was a steady stream of work through April May and June we would not be under so much pressure.
Typed while wiping fevered brow...
Bath.. it was a compliment... (wink)
Vid.... not knocking you... the companies you work with have spent lots and lots of money on ECB approval... it should be gold plated thats all....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
30 Dec 2009 by pacman75cricket
Quick question with the fact of the gap between funding & deadlines.
If thats the way it works would a company not factor that in when budgeting their costs(like clubs golf courses employing staff for the playing season only).
Also if works not carried out at ideal times are the implications of this provided to the customer.
I like Vic have had contractor installing nets in nov/dec & pulled off site. Damage will be repaired but were implications made aware. I was not involved in the clubs decision so cannot comment on negotiations.
30 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi Barry, the systems are approved not the contractors and as of yet no workable licence agreement has been forthcoming. One or two companies however have signed up to the ECBs accreditation scheme and use this in their marketing but in practise fall short because the small print is unworkable in places. We work to this standard where we can but have spent £10,000 + trying to finalise a workable document.
The present documentation seems to work on the basis of large companies with readily available office staff. In my case I farm out my books and PAYE to professionals in that area. My patient and hard pressed wife organises me and my marketing but everything else is done by me as well as running each site. This already involves 10 page tender documents, risk assessments, orders, invoices, payments, employment contracts, letters to the taxman, quality control documents etc. The extra information that accreditation would require would make it impossible for me to get on site at all and this would substantially increase the price without significantly improving quality at all, in fact quality would be compromised by my not being around.
This is the problem with our governing bodies - producing mountains of paperwork and asking 100s of questions only has a value if they are occasionally checked up on. If however you are snowed under by copious amounts of quality control paperwork, who is checking that it is enforced...... in my experience absolutely noone - we have always been left to self certify. I have never seen an ECB representative check my or anybody elses work, I do meet them occasionally whilst going about my business, however, checking on the club's paperwork for clubmark etc.
I do have sympathy with the ECB - they have to try to make sure that quality standards are adhered to when they themselves have small resources to do so. The licencing agreement will mean that the parent company is responsible for all its licencees. This should in turn reduce the amount of 'checking' that the ECB would have to do to keep the licence holders on their toes
Thanks Vid..... I am aware fully having looked into the whole ECB ''approved'' .... debacle.. sorry scenario... However many cricket clubs arent, when they see ECB approved they assume its all sweet...... is it?
Basically you buy into approval, either the system which generally is a variation on wording regarding the stone depths or its an extra bit of geotextile.... spend lots of money and then get a shout at the funded work, regardless of the fact that many of us are installing the same products to as good if not even, compared to some, better standards.....
LOL...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Nothing personal Vid... Man Flu makes me grumpier than normal one thinks lol.....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
30 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi Pacman, your site is one I would be tempted to start in winter as only a small roadway would be needed between the carpark and your practise facility, however I would not attempt the work on the match pitch until the outfield was firm enough.
The problem is every one wants us to complete the job by the start of the season but are unhappy when we leave wheelmarks etc. I try very hard to get clubs to plan their installations for the early part of autumn if at all possible. If it rains the ground will remain firm for a good while and any ground disturbed has plenty of time to recover. However autumn seldom sees me doing much installation work. March however is absolutely manic with everyone trying to get you to fit them in!! Of course at this time it is nigh on impossible not to leave wheel marks.
As for implications - I would discuss this with the club. Our terms and conditions tie us to designated accesses roadways and dump sites. However if we are negligent - ie run across the outfield leaving deep ruts then we would expect to put it right. If the restoration of damage has not been priced in then either I would have to discuss the cost implications with the club or the project would be delayed until conditions improve. Mostly clubs prefer us to get on with it and trust us to keep damage to a minimum
As for budgetting - we do - but there is a limited amount of work that I can control or afford at any one time. A 2 lane net involves me in about £11-12,000 of supplies plus machinery etc. Running 3 sites at a time (2 active 1 in preparation) far exceeds the credit I can easily manage so a trip to my bank manager is needed. I can only afford 2 lots of plant at any one time and that has to be covered by expensive insurances. Experienced staff that can do accurate, precision construction work are hard to find in the short term and take quite a while to train, so my core staff of experienced personnel have to be employed permanently. I can tell you it is very frustrating and difficult to make work when projects take months and sometimes years to get approval to go ahead.
30 Dec 2009 by vid
Hi again Barry, there are actually substantial differences in the quality of the systems that are installed and we do our best to point them out. However it reinforces what I have always thought and that is that the clubs/schools/other clients really think the different systems are nearly identical!! So accreditation impresses. However I will not sign up to a document that is not practical to implement and that is how I find myself now - in a dilemma. Do I sign up to accreditation like some have knowing I wont be able to implement it as a whole, but knowing it is unlikely to be checked up on. Or do I continue with the high quality standards that we work to and continue at considerable expense (mostly not mine fortunately) to try to negotiate a more practical quality control agreement. The temptation to take the former route is huge, but I am obstructed by my scruples and will carry on following the latter!
30 Dec 2009 by pacman75cricket
Not a criticism just out of interest as not had any input in to the project.
the main stipulation i insist on is that the contractor that is chosen does not sub it out to someone i have not met.
IMO, Trust and reputation is everything for client / contractor relaions, contractors should honour this by not subbing work out, something which i personally loathe.
if i wanted to employ cowboys and sons i would have gone to them in the first place and not have them forced upon me by a contractor that, as Vic says, has taken a long time to choose in the first place.
if the contractor cant do the job, be honest, reccomend cowboy and son / an other and let the client make the final decision.
I have to say Bath i've seen some of your laser re-levelling work recently and it's impressive.
I would'nt hesitate in recommending your firm.
Hope you are well
Neil,
Thank you for bringing the thread back to my main issue. Just how do we know that the chosen contractor has the ability, qualified full time staff and reliable equipment to complete the task, he has quoted for and for what we are paying huge sums of money?
Thanks for the compliment AnthnyDgg. Have a happy new year.
Plenty of recommendations seem to go on here. Cant see anyone posting on here risking doing a bad job.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Vic, testimonials / reccomendations are the best bet, but, what 1 person may be happy with another may not, so even these are not fool proof methods
Insist of the contractor they present a method statement of how works will be completed, when, ( inc penalites if not completed on schedule), agreed tolerances, materials etc
IMO view trust is the key issue, speak to the contractor, get a feel for his (or her) opinions on the job at hand, some contractors will throw machinery and manpower at jobs to get them completed ASAP, whilst some will be quite happy to tease it out over a period of time, only you can decide what is the best option for you.
2 Jan 2010 by Mike
Vic, I guess one way of knowing that a company invests in staff development would be to see if they have achieved the Investor in People award, although I understand that there is a financial commitment to attain this. You can also enquire to see if the staff on the contract are up to date with their cpd - this is an area where membership to the iog or bigga is handy.
If I were a contractor, I would also keep a photographic diary of every job that we undertook, and place them in a file with contact details for the customer (with their consent), and make these available to the potential customer.
Mike
Bigger the company bigger the costs, anybody with oil in their lamp will go and see for themselves the work done by the contractor and talk to people that have had the work done. Going back to big companys my mate had his cricket square levelled a couple of years ago, and the company boss dropped a bag of grass seed of by hellicopter. If i was having anywork done i would make sure that the boss man was hands on.
2 Jan 2010 by vid
I wish it were that simple Mike, but a piece of paper means next to nothing but a recommendation or seeing for yourself is at least proof that the contractor can do a proper job. My permanent staff are experienced and skilled but do not have certificates as there are none relevant, I dont need a piece of paper to tell me whether my staff can carry out a task, if they cant they wont be doing it without supervision. The client needs to know that the end result is what he asked for, within reason how a trusted contractor does this is down to him - there will always be an element of on the job training going on - its a matter of trust - all business transactions at the end of the day rely on trust, and it is this trust that you must have confidence in.
My 'certificates' are always recommendations and referrals! The main thing is to be sure of the specification that you want and that the contractor is providing the quality level that you require, then make sure he is sticking to it. Too many of my competitors have certificates coming out of their ears, claim that everything will be done according to ECB TS6 and then blatantly break these very same rules. They get away with it because the clubs either dont check as the project progresses, or if they do find something is not right they negotiate directly with the contractor and dont copy the grant provider with non compliance information when their enquiry to the contractor is not satisfied.
I have recently lost a couple of tenders where we were offering a higher spec system at a lower price but lost due to a superior presentation that for the most part was not even site specific!! It would appear they didnt ask other clubs or go and see the relevant systems. They have actually ended up paying 10% more for hot air!! Best of luck to them
2 Jan 2010 by Mike Last edited 2 Jan 2010
I have recently lost a couple of tenders where we were offering a higher spec system at a lower price but lost due to a superior presentation that for the most part was not even site specific
You hit it on the head there, Vid.
Look at it from a customers point of view. Whomever the customer is, they will have a groundsman - some will be skilled, some not so skilled. Beyond that groundsman is the decision maker, who rarely has a clue about specifics and just buries their head in the sand. A contractor needs to sell themselves to both parties - how can you do this? In my experience in matters like this, which I grant are very limited, a lot of it actually comes down to a likeability factor, and one's ability to 'sell' themselves to a customer who doesn't know one spec from another - this is where a good contractor can often lose out, and this is very unfortunate. It is often one's ability to 'sell' their product or services that gets the contract. Customers can be easily drawn in, usually through a lack of knowledge.
I know having a piece of paper that says this, that and the other doesn't always mean that someone does a good job, and this opens up into a wider discussion, but if you don't have some form of proof of competence and professionalism, what are you left with to secure that contract? You have your knowledge, which all too often falls on deaf ears, you have the ability to 'close the sale', which often has little bearing on how good a contractor someone is, and you have references, which whilst I agree can be very useful, they are far from foolproof. Then you are left with the option of going and looking at the contractors work, which would be my recommendation to anyone who was considering having work done, but even this isn't foolproof as you suggested that some of your potential clients either didn't go and see your work for themselves, or didn't make contact at the very least - I think that's very poor, especially when someone is looking at spending thousands, but the fact is that the customer doesn't always take due diligence.
Say I was a customer looking to have some work done. I've made contact with you (with no prior knowledge of you), and i'm wondering if I should award you this big contract. What am I looking to ask you, some general questions would be:
How long have you been in business?
How many staff do you employ?
Can I have references for your work?
Will you be onsite during the works?
Can we meet at regular, scheduled intervals to review and sign of each progression?
Are your staff trained and experienced - can you supply proof?
Will you be subcontracting any of the works, and if so, to whom? (same questions would apply to the sub contractors)
Can you supply me with a full detailed specification of works?
Can you give me a breakdown of the costs involved?
Do you have any other ongoing contracts in the area that I can go and look at?
These are just a few questions out of god knows how many that could be asked. Some other customers only look for a nice and tidy presentation, which to be fair, could be put together by someone who doesn't know what end of a spade to hold.
So, how can you convince the customer that it should be you who they spend their money with? Many of the clubs who can't understand the specifics will often go for certificates, likeability and presentation - unfortunately these factors don't always add up to the best job, but they do secure the contract. To be competitive, I would say that you not only need to be better than your competition in terms of quality of work, but you need to be able to supply the proof, and sometimes put it on the customers doorstap as they can't be bothered going to look for it. To go a stage further than that, you need to be able to match your competition in the areas where they do manage to secure the contracts, which might well be certificates, presentation etc. Anyone who can't match the competition on these factors leaves themselves open to losing out on contracts to competition who don't have anywhere near the skills or qualities of a real, top notch contractor, and that's a hell of a shame.
Mike
So, it appears to me that clubs are mostly at fault for not carrying out due diligence, either because they do not carry out enough checks on possible contractors or because they are lazy and do not check on work that has been carried out at other clubs and asked the relevant questions.
As i said earlier, very often clubs know what they want, say a new cricket square, but do they know what specification is required and how that spec should implemented ? Very often it appears that they do not, but they think they know best and in the short term they think they have saved a few pounds.
Often when clubs approach me about improvements i will ask them how much do they think they have to spend. I will then tell them what might be achieved with that budget, if anything at all.
I feel like a fly on the wall! All good stuff. I think the customer has a duty to be diligent to be fair to the contractors.
Its frustrating how long it all takes, obtaining grants, planning permission from councils possibly etc. But I think the customer has to be patient and cut corners in checking out various factors such as mike mentions.
I can see how ECB guidleines etc may be a bit of a pain but if a club is applying for a large ECB grant then they obviously must have a say. also it is good for the club to have an independant poinnt of view
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Ok read a lil, thought a bit, wondered what could say from a contractors point of view.....
Its all like anything else in life really... some firms give a lot of blah blah blah... some have a flashy brochure listing this club and that... some have nice flash addys in all the magazines, some only use a select few..
Some sub a lil bit, some a lot, some do it all in house...
Some do a damn fine job and when you lose a job to them you think 'oh well next one..'
Some don't and you wish the client luck, they gonna need it...
Some go in for a one hit and move on, some want to come back next time you want something done.
However what you cant get away from is that this industry is a very very small world and pretty well we all know out there who does a good job, whos been unlucky with the weather, whos actually got the right kit, staff and supervisors to do the job and who you wouldn't touch with a barge pole but somehow manage to keep going strong... Its knowing who gives a damn about the work they do and the only thing that counts, Reputation, Reputation, REPUTATION...
Whether you buying a kettle for the shed, a gallon of oil for the mowers or chemicals for the ground you will use who you feel you can trust for service and value for money and that ONLY comes from experience, recommendations or referalls....
BUT.. no matter who you choose, the job at the end of the day will generally come down to 4 things... Budget, Specification, Weather and The Laws of Buggerance that affect virtually every job. The first 2 are fixed, its how the contractor deals with the last 2...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
2 Jan 2010 by vid
Thanks for your comments Mike. At the end of the day it still comes down to Trust, and mostly that comes from face to face presentation, not many people ask me even half of your questions Mike, but for the most part I will furnish them with the information anyhow. My presentation has changed hugely since this particular contract was lost but I still rely on conversation rather than pages and pages of regurgitated waffle and unintelligible techno infill.
Most clubs are part time enthusiasts - very few know how to run a project properly - so most are investing in trust of their chosen contractors. It is a little unfair to blame them for their inattention as most think the work has all been done in the tendering process and few if any have allowed for supervision of the contract, I find that all are enormously pleasant, hard working, sefless people that I derive a lot of pleasure out of doing a good job for. Some people have invested 100s of hours achieving clubmark etc and negotiating their funds, and generally trust me to do a good job for them as that is the choice they have personally made. I feel sorry for those that put their trust in price and a flashy document.
I recently worked on a large schools project installing a square and match/practise facilities. Even though I have a lifetimes experience driving excavators, tractors, dumpers etc I didnt have the certification to drive 25t excavators. I therefore had to let a driver with a recently attained ticket but with no experience try to accurately digout the surfaces, which he couldnt do and I had to wait for 2 weeks before one became available. Certification takes time, money and planning and appears to be never ending. Invariably when I am free there is no course and vice versa. So its very frustrating to lose jobs because a piece of paper cant be produced even when this piece of paper is no more than proof of very basic competence - not necessarily good enough to do the job in hand!!
2 Jan 2010 by vid
BTW spot on Barry - Ive just read your post
Obviously in my last post, I meant "NOT cut corners in checking out various factors"
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Thanks for all your input, seems one has to trust whoever is to be used but make sure that trust is well placed in the first instance with people of proven experience and relevant endorsements.
My biggest concern now with this thread Vic, only ten different people have posted there thoughts. Out of the thousands of members there must be some more views and thoughts. Just a little concerned. I really thought that this post would just run and run and run.
Vic, or you do what the majority do...... pick the cheapest price.... regardless...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Barry, hate your picture by the way!! Should that read "do you do what the majority do" or am I being thick again?
Bath, add 5 pm's although 3 from people who have replied on the general board, 1 from a close friend and another from a huge organisation trying to sell their help.
To add a slightly different point to this. Is that we as contractors put our faith in being paid as well, as ensuring that the job is delivered to the clients requirements and on budget and on time?
In the past, I have had clubs that have had all the end of season renovations done, and THEN realise that they do not have enough money to pay at the end.
Also, working for local authorities means that you can wait up to 120 days for your pay.
Mark
3 Jan 2010 by barry glynn Last edited 3 Jan 2010
120 days? Try being that late with your rates payment eh?
Cricket contract work is a very difficult thing. Most clubs run very close to the line financially.
Ive worked for contractor a bit and I know how difficult getting the dosh can be from clubs.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
An important issue that i am glad you raised has 2 mow.
Yes Barry, i very often have to wait long spells for payment from the council, or i should say, from the management company working on behalf of the council.
Most idividual clubs have been very good to me, but there are always one or two who seem to conveniently forget and need a couple of reminders.
Sorry BP just gone over it again and it was me being thick!! See what you mean but when spending that amount of money.....?
As Barry says it's Reputation, Reputation, Reputation.
Am I the only person who knows exactly who 'I' want to do the job before I put jobs out for tender (so to speak). I choose who I ask to tender knowing the sort of response I'll get from them and so can 'fiddle' things so that I get the person that I want and know will do the job that I want without me having to watch over them all the time - if I bother watching them at all.
It seems to me that many 'volunteer' (possibly some pro's as well) groundsmen stay within their own little circle and don't bother getting out and about to meet other groundsmen/contractors in order to learn who and/or what might be of use to them. By getting out and about (ie networking) you get to find out who does what, at roughly what price, and more importantly what quality.
It's d4mn annoying when people aren't paid on time - it annoys me when my club (for whatever reason) doesn't cough up when they should. To be fair (in my case) there is 'normally' a darn good reason but I like to try and make sure that things happen when they should - and that includes people getting paid.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
jl, this thread was started with the comment that I like to do things in house and rarely need contractors.
Yes I stay in "my own little circle" because if I'm visiting someone else, drinking coffee, who is doing my work? The "networking" you refer to, isn't that what we do on here, if that is people respond to messages.
Following up to this message, the funding is now allocated, so contacted my preferred contractor and he is already fully booked up for the period required. Had a good chat though, gained lots of information from him and feel better positioned to find an alternative.
Shame he can't do it though, as I believe they don't come any better.
Will be meeting others later this week.
Well, well, well. My copy of the latest Pitchcare magazine arrived today complete with an article on this very subject and perhaps inspired by this thread, who knows?
I only hope that a couple of my close friends read it and find it as illuminating as I did.
Are Head Groundsmen really not good enough at their jobs to project manage a contractor installing a couple of new decks?
The article seems to suggest, customers - paying money - are the only ones who can get it wrong. Sorry guys there actually are some bad contractors out there, as my private message box would show.
1 Mar 2010 by Mike
My copy hasn't arrived yet 
, but something tells me i'm going to enjoy reading that article...
Looking forward to the upcoming season, Vic?
Looks like this is going to be my first full season in charge of cricket... anxious isn't the word!
Mike,
I will leave you to form your own opinion of the article, after all you know what we are talking of.
New season with a new challenge, always a buzz.
Good luck, back yourself, take sound advise, only anxious because it matters to you.
1 Mar 2010 by vid
Vic there are good HGs there are bad HGs, there are good contractors there are bad contractors, there are good managers and there are bad managers. The skill is communicating well enough to find out which is which ....... and that will never change.
Very true vid. Also there are honest people and dishonest people. Communication is fine but until tested one doesn't really know.
There is good and bad in every line and to portray a situation where the blame all lies at one door, is not a fair representation.
Vid, there are also good managers who can manage people very very well but couldn't project manage their way out of a paper bag.
I've still yet to find out who project managed the rebuild of my square but if I ever do find out I certainly won't be buying them a beer.
There are also good contractors who get it wrong now and then.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Jon/Vic
I think this depends on experience. We are currently going through the motions of early stages of development and planning of a second ground.
Personally I have no experience of this so for to me act as project manager, should the project actually happen, would be wrong. We will be looking at the majority of the funding to come from the ECB so they have to ensure their money is being spent wisely.So having a third independant party project mananging is ok by me.
However, what I do think is a bit off is for us to have to lay out a possible 2k to a third party recommended by the ECB just to rubber stamp the site as ok for the project. A 2k we cant claim back. I have had 3 reputable contractors check the site out , taken samples etc and all have said it is suitable.
Its a long winded process and we are currently waiting for the council to reply to our official application and even if I say so myself, our very professional presentation. They have said they very much in favour of the project but councils are not known for moving too quickly are they?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Hiya Vic, dunno how you read the article, I have only seen the prerelease version but as a 'quotee' in the said piece I know that the intention of the article was to warn and advise Groundsman and Clubs of the pitfalls on the wrong choice of contractor.. By giving the companies who you go out to get quotations from a clear concise description of what you want should reduce the risk of the less scrupilous contractors out there taking advantage, especially in the current climate where some people will be tempted to get work at any price. It wasn't intended to be a 'knock the client' piece and I didnt think it read at all that way, it was to point out the pitfalls.
Unfortunately all too often jobs are requested and quoted on with such a potential vast scope of standards or specification range its a bit like walking into a BMW dealership and saying ''I want a car'' but what car do you want, a basic mini or an M5, they are all cars... it generally comes down to who pricing is brave or foolish enough to go with a minimal or low allowance in their costs to secure the contract, or worse not give the client what they actually require and honesty and pride in work and reputation all come into this equation, some of us contractors give a damn and want to walk away from each job proud, with you referring us to others, some just want your money and run.
And as Jon says we all have jobs that go well or are just bloomin nightmares, thats contracting, we cant get it perfectly right all the time, anyone who states they do are full of .... we are constantly fighting nature and the weather in very small windows of opportunity and it often conspires against you, its how this is sorted out that makes a good contractor IMHO... And there have been many jobs, with consultants or architects I have done in the past where you are constantly rolling your eyes wondering where these people have been let out of but you do the job as best you can...
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
2 Mar 2010 by Mike
I haven't seen the article as yet, but for those of you that have, can you tell me if there is any input/advice from any end users? To give a balanced opinion and set of views, a range of opinions from all involved should be sought. With all due respect to the many contractors out there, you are going to look after your lot, which is fair enough. Likewise, the end users are going to look after their lot, which again, is fair enough. If the point of the article was to warn of the pitfalls of the wrong choice of contractor, then really that advice should come from an independent source as many end users could quite fairly see it as a ploy by the contractor to direct more business to their company. I can't really comment any more without seeing the article, but this does strike me as being a very interesting and pertinent subject.
Mike
2 Mar 2010 by Barry Pace Last edited 2 Mar 2010
There was comment/info from Gordon Jaaback an independant agronomist as well as, Malcolm from BA Clubs, David from Millfield School, Loamy, Mr Gordon Gill Esq and myself..... Yes we contractors need to look after our own lot at times, normally when we are getting ripped off and conned by football clubs with no ability or intention of paying us for 9 months to a year if that or when we lose out to an alledged sportsturf contractor who you wonder how on earth they are going to do a job far cheaper than you without under applying dressings, seed, fertiliser, drainage etc etc etc let alone the fact they they haven't actualy got the kit to do the job correctly in the first place......................... must breath more slowly......
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
2 Mar 2010 by Mike
Sounds fair enough then Barry, certainly enough opinions there for anyone with a bit of nouse to pick the bones out of...
General rule of thumb - if it sounds to good to be true, it usually is... and that stands for contractors and customers.
Mike
3 Mar 2010 by Pitchcare Peter Last edited 3 Mar 2010
It may be helpful to understand how the article was compiled.
Yes, the article was inspired by this particular thread, but expanded beyond cricket to encompass all sports.
It was built around comments from Project Manager/Agronomist, Gordon Jaaback, who made some very valid points. Once the comments of Barry Pace, Gordon Gill and David Goodjohn had been included, the article was sent to a number of head groundsmen/greenkeepers for them to add their views. In this instance we used the comments from David Warner (Millfield School) and Malcolm Gardner (BA Clubs) as these were the most comprehensive replies.
I would not consider Gordon G or David G as 'big boys' in the world of contracting, whilst Speedcut, whom Barry works for, would be. Hopefully a broad enough range of opinion there.
Once their comments were added, the article was styled up, with images, to produce a 'final' draft. This draft was then sent to all the contractors in my email address book for their final comments, along with promotional opportunities.
It is worth noting that the article formed part of a special feature on contractors, with further articles about a new build cricket square in Somerset - project managed by a head groundsman and including bill of quantities, a letter to local residents etc., CDM and a major project at Headingley Carnegie.
The overwhelming view, from all who responded, was that this was a very balanced article. From there we went to press.
Barry Pace, nail on the head when you say "alleged sporsturf contractor who you wonder how on earth they are going to do a job far cheaper than you without...................................................................................."
Exactly the point in the first place.
Pitchcare Peter,
Understand what you are saying and the message you are sending out in the article however would it not have been interesting to ask the thread originator what had caused the post in the first place and included some more extreme pitchcare posters rather than the usual few?
Vic.
3 Mar 2010 by Barry Pace Last edited 3 Mar 2010
Am I missing something here.. I have read, reread, pondered...
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hi Vic,
As stated, we did canvas opinion from others. Those used were the most comprehensive replies.
The original questions concerned larger projects that required the assistance of contractors, not the smaller 'in house' projects.
Therefore the article was built around the 'big jobs', how to source the best contractor and how best to ensure that you get the right end result.
As the original postie I thought it was you that needed the answers 
Cheers
Peter
All I am trying to say - not very well - is that it can be difficult to spend our companies money with confidence and can lead to dismissal if the wrong choice is made. There are reps who visit and attempt to gain ones confidence before unleashing a product or service on them. If one chooses to believe the story they are hearing and employs that person because they like what they hear but the rep has neither the skills nor equipment/manpower to provide the service that he has so skillfully promised, how can that be the fault of the end user as is the conclusion of the article, as I read it?
Vic
Isnt it also the repsonsibility of the end user to take up references and check out the contractors previous track record?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
You pays ya money and takes ya choice....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
You guys never believed anything you were being sold. What contractor is going to offer a contact for reference where there has been ill feeling. Sorry BP but I think that is the wrong attitude.
Okay contractors out there in Pitchcare land. I am searching for someone to come and relay 2 pitches in September 2010 on my main square. These will be done to my specification and will be used for first class cricket in 2012. My first choice contractor is too busy, second choice is supposed to visit on Friday. Next week, I shall be at the ground from 9-4 each day, if anyone is willing to offer a quotation for the works, please make contact to arrange an appointment on this message board. I will not answer pm's or invite anyone who contacts me by telephone. The location is UB8
Barry, from your reply are you saying that the more expensive the job then the better the end result?
Guys, as someone who is going through, albeit at the early stages, a project involving choosing a contractor, I think there is no easy answer. Also there are no guarantees, like anything when choosing a company to use in any walk of life.
Sales reps are sales reps, some may be more trustworthy than others and some may be better informed than others. thats life.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
3 Mar 2010 by Barry Pace Last edited 3 Mar 2010
Hi Neil, no not at all what the whole bloomin thing is supposed to be about is customers making a balanced informed judgement on what, how and with whom they want to spend their money based on giving Contractors a good enough description of what they require in the first place so that the less scrupilous are not able to take advantage and backing this with checking people out.. If someone can do all this cheaper to the best standard possible then they are your choice... the question is, especially in current times as in similar tough times in the past... can they and will they still be around in a years time if it goes wrong. It may just be that they are in the area at the right time with low mobilisation costs, have a good deal on certain products or even have a little hole to fill in the program, these all can make you go in a little keener if appropriate.
Vic, dunno what else to say really, no I am not likely to put forward any jobs where they may have been issue in the past, but to be fair if you really wanted to see a bad job I would have to think hard where, and then would make sure you were aware of all the facts as to why ie customer didnt have enough money to do it properly, their choice, sometimes it even can come down to a clash of personalities between a key member of staff, nowt queerer than folk, I even have people I would refuse to work for again no matter how good or big the job is, a muppet is a muppet, maintenance post seeding/turfing was non existant/lacking, played too soon/too wet whatever, manic consultants, horrendous weather washing things away, open ended specifications with too much variation, contractor blamed for the decisionschoices of others above they have no control over, the list could be long as have seen it all over 25 odd years, but 'swearing on my kids lives' I have never knowingly been involved in projects where drainage falls the wrong way if at all because a laser isnt even on site let alone working, materials are not applied or added at far reduced rates only to cut corners and costs, customers are missold as to what quality is expected, incorrect machinery used as havent had access to the right bit of kit etc etc etc and a customer has been ripped off or left out to hang after.. We have customers that we do work for regularly year in, year out and some of these we have been going to for over 15 years and that is the aim, once a customer, always a customer, they are the easiest to find.
And I would love to come and have a look, discuss and provide you with a price for the strips if you would have us quote.
Barry
EDIT 1: Blimey I sound like a Rep full of spin in the last bit.....
EDIT 2: Right I have reread the whole shabang, making sure I not missing something.. and Vic, apologies but not sure what I have wrong attitude on, in nicest possible way, was it 'You pays your money'' or the fact a bad job reference wouldnt be offered?
Have said about references above but honestly my opinion is, in all forms and walks of life, if you DONT do your homework properly, compare what you are getting for £X with the alternatives, make sure its what you want and it doesn't live up to expectations after picking the cheapest one rather than best VFM then you have only yourself to blame if it goes pear shaped...
EDIT 3: This is all about HG protecting themselves too as has been seen far too often in the past. If the decision on by whom and what is eventually done is made by someone above your pay level, with no regard or knowledge of specification etc etc, what you do not want either is that choice, if it is a poor one, becoming a problem that is then blamed on you because of the level of the original enquiry you were asked to make.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Would love to quote Vic, thanks for the invitation. Just not got enough hours now to take time out and pay you a visit.
I wish you all the best though.
Barry, would love to have you come and offer a quote, pick a day and time next week.
"You pays your money" was indeed the one which rubbed me up.
Maybe after a face to face chat we will be able to understand each others perspective a little better. After all, I have been in your position having ran my own business for 20 years which was also supplying a service to the end user.
No probs Vic, will be good to meet anyway let alone quote the work and look forward to discussing the ways of the world over a coffee.
Can I provisionally book Wednesday am, will need to confirm exact time when I know my other ongoing site commitments/weather effects on Monday if that is OK.
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Grand, Barry.
Evening Vic,would like to try and fix a time for Wednesday, will be at home on paperwork all day tomorrow if you want to pm me
Regards
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
8 Mar 2010 by Mike
I'll give you this Barry - given the stir that this thread appears to have caused, to come out in an open forum and offer your services whilst all are watching suggests to me that you have the utmost confidence in your work. I would shudder to think of the consequences for your rep if the "laws of buggerance" descended on you on this job, but since you have been big enough and brave enough to meet with this potential challenge when all are watching, I hope the"laws of buggerance" pass you by on this job!
Mike
8 Mar 2010 by Barry Pace Last edited 8 Mar 2010
Even if they don't Mike, its how they are dealt with regardless of for who or where that maketh the contractor... and they will be the same for whoever eventually gets the contract..
And lets face it it from the sound of it Vic knows exactly what he wants and in what way which is half the battle anyways.
The job is still to be won by someone though, I am expecting some stiff competition interms of quality/cost as is invariably the norm.
Mind you never thought of it that way.... lol might be too expensive just in case (JOKING!)
Barry
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Barry will pm details today and as for competition, it seems it may not be that stiff as others keep making promises but failing to turn up. Obviously too busy to want the work.
Mike, you are one who is aware of just why this thread was started and the problems that we encounter from time to time when bad apples are allowed to slip into the system. Let's just say the whole experience has raised many alarm bells when going down this route. It is not helped when those apples are given wings.
Hi Vic
We'd like to come and take a look and price to your specification.
Can't make it this week but is there a date and a time next week that would suit you?
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
10 Mar 2010 by Mike Last edited 10 Mar 2010
Just to follow on with this thread, and my thread (dangerous playing conditions), I have finally been given the go ahead to identify and make initial approaches to any suitable contractors who would be willing and able to undertake the reinstatement of part of a cricket outfield using thick cut turf, between the dates of March 26th and completion would have to enable play to commence on April 24th - this work would be undertaken on the Isle of Man. Anyone interested can contact me via this thread, pm, or call me on 07624 262336.
To go in tune with much of the advice in this thread, I will only consider applicants who can prove that they work to the highest possible standards, and have the infrastructure to adapt should any unforseen circumstances arrive - would you be interested in this one Barry/Vid?
Thanks Mike, have just replied to your PM,.................. look forward to meeting.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Loammeister, no thank you.
BP, was good to meet today, very informative and enlightening, look forward to hearing from you in due course. I have emailed some further details to you.
14 Mar 2010 by vid Last edited 14 Mar 2010
As I said in my pm's Mike would love to take the trip and do the work however I am at work 7 - 7 at the mo right through to May so I wouldnt be able to help I am afraid.
14 Mar 2010 by Mike
Thanks Vid - you know that you would always be made more than welcome over here. As you are aware, there are more projects on the horizon, this one has taken priority however given the limited time span we have available.
Glad to hear that there's plenty of work coming your way though.
Mike
Its like a love in 
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
14 Mar 2010 by vid
Damn, the secrets out
14 Mar 2010 by Mike
Well, someone has got to make up for you're misery, Barry 
14 Mar 2010 by Richard Rainford
Wow that was a long read!
Anyway in answer to the initial question, references, references and more references, for quality of works. As regards a price well that depends on your spec and thier spec and which is most suitable for the job being quoted/tendered for. You cant do a good job cheap, its either cheap or good. Cost and value must be remembered, also if its a big job consider an on site consultant to ensure spec is adhered to, smaller jobs then you should be able to oversee yourself, watch, ask questions, dont be shy
Guarantees if things dont turn out as they should, I guarantee every job as I am spraying contractor, if you are not happy with the results then you get it rsprayed again FOC no questions asked, even if its weather related, after all its up to me to apply in suitable conditions.
Check your contractors credentials before you use them
Difficult when relaying cricket wickets/squares Richard, you only get one chance to get it right.
Many on site groundsman know what they want but very often they do not know how to achieve that during construction. Many contractors, unfortunately, will perceive a customer weakness and drive a double decker bus right through them. There are to many construction jobs that have gone wrong due to the contractor, either not knowing any better himself or just cheating the customer. However well intentioned, very often the customer knows what he wants but does not know how to achieve it. Hence the independant project manager.
I have just been given a cricket job to tender for. I must supply all kit, budget expected to be between 6k to 8k. However, how am i supposed to supply a roller for that money? no mention of roller size. I could put in a price, get the job and then provide a garden lawn roller. I would be keeping to spec, but i know that is not what is required. Cricket squares are hungry beasts, no mention of any fertiliser applications. I may not get the job, but i felt duty bound to point these faults out and i await there response. I guess many would not even mention, get the job, five year contract mind, and then argue with the customer for ever more. I want to be better than that.
bath this is another example of a cricket club who because they are willing to pay a contractor want the earth, you know only too well that for that ammount of money and having to provide all the equipment and by the sounds of it the loam and fertiliser, plus no doubt expected to spray for worms and disease you have no chance of keeping the quality up because it wouldn't allow you spend the hours on site, and then theres maintanance of that equipment you have provided. I am affraid many clubs still have no idea of the costs involved, I have been given imformation of 2 crickets clubs close to me that required groundsman in the last 2 months (I wasn't asked to quote but could have) I havent contacted either because unless I know who I am dealing with, I have come to the conclusion that cricket work is just too much hassle and colleagues of mine have exactly the same opinion. It's a sad situation from someone who was a cricket man through and through and would rather do schools and not have the hassle.
The problem that has always been with club cricket is a lack of funds and a lot of ignorance in clubs as to what is required to produce decent surfaces.
Also the proliferation of overseas players and players being paid (in clubs higher up the ladder)is stripping clubs of funds to spend on the grounds.
Must be difficult for contractors to make money out of cricket if thhey are trying to do a thorough job. They must get caught between a rock and a hard place, in that the clubs wont pay a proper price so enough time can be spent but then moan because the result is not what they expect and just blame the contractor.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
I don't think it matters what type of surface that contractors or turf managers are involved in, there will always be a short fall of funds available to do what you want ,and if clubs put up their fees to much members will move elsewhere .
This afternoon i have looked at two jobs one at a bowls green , at the meeting i was told they have 2.5 k to spend this year , great i said what about materials, no thats everything , the second job was at a large private house, gave the chap a list of our prices per 1500 sq mtr's , told him he has 3,000 plus mtr's thats fine just bring your invoice for the job you are doing and i will pay you when you get here , now guess where i will be working .
So choosing a contractor or a customer works both ways ,they want the work done, and i want to do the best i can at all times and earn a living.
Mark
Watch out taking those private lawn jobs Mark, you'll be into turf wars with the green lawn people.
15 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket
Don't start driving a BMW Mark you will upset Vic.
Hi buddy
Ah but wont be doing my work in the snow. And if they like trying to pinch my work ,what comes around goes around .
Happy days .
Mark
Faith restored.
Had a guy come in today to do a survey on the bowling green. Arrived early on the said day. Competed the job with no fuss - even though for a while it hosed down - and he supplied the correct tools.
A job well done by a first class contractor, a true friend - unlike those who come in and talk a load of b*ll - and at a great price.
Thanks pal, I owe you.
Vic.
20 Mar 2010 by Mal
That is great to hear Vic. With 2245 views on this thread and 130 replies currently, the interest generated in your question is impressive. At least you now have another trusted contractor you can add to your list.
Geography is everywhere
Indeed Mal, all about living and learning I suppose. Need to live a bit more perhaps.
Are you and Tom coming over to our bowls day on 7th April?
20 Mar 2010 by Mal
Sounds good PM me some more details
Geography is everywhere
I must admit i am a bit dismaid with contractors at the moment,
I phoned two drainage/sportfield contractors both listed on this site but will remain anonymus. one took over 36 hours to reply and did not seem that interested, the other never ever bothered to call back !!!!!!!!! all i can say is i am glad they are doing so well in a recesion that a £5/10k job is to much for them ????? 
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