Message Board: Pests, Weeds and Diseases: Fusarium/hydrophobicity

9th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Turf diseases are still something of a mystery to me, I'm afraid.

Is there any correlation between fusarium and hydrophobic soil?

Reason I ask is, to my untrained eye, I appear to have a serious outbreak of fusarium in an area where I've had trouble with hydrophobic soil.

To be honest I'm a bit annoyed. On a few occasions I've seen what, at the time, I thought were cobwebs. Research reveals that what I was looking at was the fungus that causes Fusarium. Didn't know that at the time, though.

If I had I could, presumably, have taken steps. Ah well, one lives and learns.

From the posh end of the room!!

9th Feb 2010 by Mal

Hi Aladdin, hope you are well and what an excellent question. I was thinking of asking the same question but in the other direction i.e. I have an area on my bowls green that despite the use of wetters last year remained hyrophobic and though my green has suffered this year with fusarium, the area in question seems to be completely free of it.

Geography is everywhere

9th Feb 2010 by williams1

Hi Aladdin

I think you have to ask yourself the question why and how is my grass plant susecptible to pathogen attacks. Normally as a rule of thumb I will ask myself how is photosynthesis being affected. When a soil is hydrophobic and you have no water in the soil solution there are many parts of the photosynthetic process being hampered. This then decreases plant strength, puts the plant under stress and leaves it open for pathogen attack. This can be said also for shaded, waterlogged grass etc. Plants will send out warning signals to surrounding grass plants when an attack is imminent and this is why we don't usual get blanket disease issues.

To cure your hydrophobic soil have you been using a penetrant? This will help wet the soil before you apply your spring surfactant. Water alone and standard surfactants like Primer say will not stop your soil repelling water.

If your soil is very hydrophobic try using a penetrant every 3 weeks at maintenance rates throughout the year. You will see great results. 80% of all wetters used and sold in the warm season states of the US are penetrants. Alot cheaper also!

9th Feb 2010 by vid

Hydrophobicity is normally caused by the presence of one particular group of fungi, when it produces dry patch this fungal group has become dominant, most likely IMO (and I mean my opinion) due to imbalance of fungi in the rootzone, this imbalance is then in turn taken advantage of by the fusarium fungus. I am not at all convinced that applying fungicide has the desired affect as it will maintain an imbalance and disease is more likely to reappear. Its hard to advise on, as fusarium is such an aggressive disease and most turf keepers are keen to see it off. Myself I tend to watch at this time of year and let the turf fight its own battles. When the turf is growing strongly in spring I find that the grasses generally come through with little residual effect and with little evidence of reocurrence. Every time I have treated in the winter disease returns with a vengeance once the chemical has worn off. Watching and treating with wetting agent I think is a very good way of progressing

It takes a strong nerve to do and it works for me, but I cant guarantee success and I would be daft to do so on just my experience. I just hope that we can move to practise where the very first step on seeing disease is not to reach for the chemical cabinet!!

9th Feb 2010 by Barry Pace

Hi Aladdin, hope your well.. 2 trains of thought..
Most obvious is ph, but i guess unlikley in your case, you would notice a difference in growth if variation occurred but either high or low ph <4.5 or 8.5> can make soils exceptionally hydrophobic.
Possible is we have seen/noticed this 'effect' increasingly over the whole range of sports surfaces, strange, sometimes localised areas that are just too dry for the conditions... what they are can only be guessed but when you open up or dig through these areas the top 25mm or so is invariably wet (when wet) the next 100-150mm is exceptionally dry, almost to the point of dust the moisture increases with depth to same as surrounding areas. It is thought that this is possibly caused by a group of microbes/bugs which like drier conditions to flourish and create a protective umbrella within the soil, similar to a type 2 fairy ring effect without the grass loss, by coating the soil with a waxy material (myceleum?) which acts as a repellant.
Increased aeration along with wetting agents seems to improve the areas by allowing in moisture and other 'normal' bugs to increase in numbers to balance the environment..... maybe..
Regards

Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......

9th Feb 2010 by bath

Is your problem area a fairy ring Aladdin ?

9th Feb 2010 by Barry Pace

By similar to Type 2 effect I mean that the areas are bone dry, the actual coverage can be random blocks of quite large areas, a few or hundreds of square metres, no significant difference in grass coverage just the areas are drier so grass plant can look slightly 'droughty' compared to surrounding areas.

Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......

9th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Looking at the disease issue from a slightly different angle.....

Part of our basic turf management education includes the disease triangle. i.e Host, Pathogen and Environment. If they are not equal, you are likely to experience a degree of turf incidence, the severity of which is dependent on how far this swing is?

A hydrophobic condition is part of the environment, the root system is affected, plus the availability of moisture and nutrients is affected. A weakened plant is more susceptible to disease.

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

9th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Thank you all for your responses.

This is very, very interesting. I shall take some time to digest what has been posted.

I visited the pitch this morning with the intention of taking a photograph of the offending area only to find that it had greened up of it's own accord thus supporting Mr. vid's opinion.

I am advised that Fusarium can do this, however.

There are still small patches of, apparently, dead grass but I don't feel as panicked as I did previously.

From the posh end of the room!!

9th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Somewhat remiss of me. Sorry.

Yes, I am well if a little stressed with one or two things.

Mr. bath, no. Have had fairy ring in the past but this doesn't appear to be the case, currently.

What I can say is that I made the mistake of failing to keep up my wetting agent applications so, of course, it's returned to bite me on the botty!!

From the posh end of the room!!

9th Feb 2010 by Mike A

What I find interesting about this is that so far we have had 7 responses, from a number of very knowledgeable groundsmen, and not one has suggested reaching for a bottle of fungicide... could it be that a corner has been turned...

All of the advice so far has suggested low cost, low risk to operator solutions. In difficult financial times, and with the ever increasing restrictions placed on pesticide use, it appears that many groundsmen are finding alternatives... good stuff men!

Mike

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

9th Feb 2010 by bath

Barry certainly suggested using a wetting agent alongside good aeration Mike.

9th Feb 2010 by bath

Now having read your post properly Mike, you are right, no fungacide mentioned as yet. However, i am not sure that the problem has been identified yet, so being the good practioners that we are, we would not have recommended the use of one yet anyway.
That sounds good dun it.

9th Feb 2010 by Mike A

Correct Bath, but I remember the days when at the merest suggestion of a disease, fungicides were the first port of call. To see the considered responses so far, notwithstanding the fact that we don't have a clear ident yet, tells me that more openminded (?) approaches are being sought and considered. This is where the beauty of a forum such as this comes to the fore imo. Many of the people who have given advice so far are very knowledgeable and are well respected - advice from peers such as those mentioned tends to stick with people, and via the forum, these messages soon spread to a wide audience.

Mike

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

9th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Mike...... Have you considered politics as a second option career choice?

LOL

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

9th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Once again, gentlemen, thank you.

To summarise, then:

There is no direct correlation between hydrophobicity and fusarium BUT hydrophobicity impacts on the environment, stressing the grass plant and making it more vulnerable to disease. Something which fusarium will take full advantage of.

The grass plant, if left to it's own devices, aided only by longer daylight hours and an increase in temperatures as we approach Spring, may well fight off fusarium. To a greater or lesser degree.

The answer, therefore, is to remove the hydrophobicity and restore a balance in the soil (soil food web?).

In essence I have been doing what has been advised i.e. aeration and wetting agent.

I think, though, that when conditions/circumstances suit I''ll get on with the Groundbreaker. It goes deeper than the Aercore.

From the posh end of the room!!

9th Feb 2010 by jim davidson

Aladdin,

You mentioned that you saw what you thought was cobwebs and that your reserch leads you to believe that this is the fungus associated with Fusarium.

I have often seen the same thing but a post last year said that this was the fungus of dollar spot ?

Can you point me in the direction of your reserch.

As I said above I often see these cobweb like forms they don't seem to have any structure to the touch and am still unsure what they are thanks

9th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

I just Googled "Fusarium Patch" and this is one of the things that came up:

Fusarium Patch Disease

From the posh end of the room!!

10th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Hi Jim,

In a lot of cases, they are in fact cobwebs! There are many times in the year (growing season) when the entire surface is covered in them.

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

10th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Thanks Ken!!

Just to add to the confusion.

How, then. does one differentiate between fungus and cobwebs?

From the posh end of the room!!

10th Feb 2010 by chrismitchell

The cobwebs are called gossamar. They are particularly prevelant in the Autumn.

Ken. Have you been tobagganing down any slopes on a greenkeeper so far this winter?

Chris

Remember, never eat yellow snow!

10th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber Last edited 10th Feb 2010

Them were the days Chris!

There were actually 3 of us riding the back of the said greenkeeper! He was a big fellow...... I can still hear him roaring with laughter now! That was the same day I borrowed some young guy's sledge and disappeared through a holly bush and into a ravine! Lucky I didn't break my neck!!!

That was the winter of 1983/84 me thinks?

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

10th Feb 2010 by Steve63

Last year on a newish bowling green fertiliser had been applied inaccurately leaving a significant striping effect. Because of various political/red tape issues, this wasn't adressed. As the winter progressed the yellow strips on the green became severely diseased whilst the greener healthier grass was largely unaffected, so as Ken suggests if your turf is healthy then it will be less likely to become ill!
Aladdin, all grass can become diseased it is just that some species withstand fusarium better than others, I have seen areas of fusraium grow to the size of a dinner plate but because it was bent grass it recovered from the centre out. I have also seen patches of fusarium have a total kill which took months to regrow, but then that was meadow grass.

Regards

Steve

From now on I'll keep my own Council

10th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Cheers, Steve.

It's looking as though Spring will be as effective as anything.

I remember a thread from the dim and distant past wherein one particular poster (Can't remember who, I'm afraid) suggested that there wasn't the confidence in the grass that there should be.

Mr. vid, for example, states that he lets the grass fight it's own battles which proves to be succesful. For his facility, at least.

From what I've observed recently I'm going to do much the same. Maybe apply a bio-stimulant and, obviously, treat the hydrophobicity.

This season I've found I've achieved more by doing less whereas last season I always felt that I ought to be doing something and probably did more harm than good.

From the posh end of the room!!

10th Feb 2010 by Mike A Last edited 10th Feb 2010

Very good philosophy Aladdin - sometimes less is more... or that's what I tell my bosses anyway

I try not to over complicate things with diseases. I view plant health as I do that of human health. If you lead a well balanced life, with plenty of exercise (cultural practices?), eat a well balanced diet (a balanced fertilser programme) and live in a clean environment (no chemical intervention), health will prosper - for example, you don't see many buddhist monks suffering with a common cold, or various other diseases? On the other hand, if you spent your life relying on overly generous helpings of processed foods, with no exercise in a dirty environment, you would be inundated with disease's. The very same principles apply to plant health - look after the grass, and it won't need chemical intervention. I have never fertilised at my current place of work, and have never had to apply a fungicide... co-incidence?

Mike

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

10th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

The sward has a better chance of fighting its own battles if your management programs include encouraging a healthy soil food web. If however, your turf has been managed using oil based fertiliers and chemicals, there is far less chance of your sward winning its own battles! Because the soil food web could not sustain in such a hostile environment with little or no food source to survive.

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

10th Feb 2010 by ian macmillan Last edited 10th Feb 2010

Nature was to engineer it's own defence evolution long befor man started to bottle up. As Mike has stated? compare it to Human health. Anything with morphological and physiological aspect has it's own way of self defence! and organic compounds such as furfural, antibiotic, facilitate intervention with natures intent. As ken has stated! this is only realised when the soil has a healthy environment " free" from chemical input. It's time to hand back to Mother Nature. Is it not? Ian Mac

10th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Hmmm.

I must confess I haven't seen any Buddhist monks with a common cold. But then, I haven't seen any Buddhist monks, full stop!! Are there many on the I.O.M.?

I understand your points, gentlemen, but consider that we are caring for sports turf surfaces. Something that is in itself somewhat artificial.

I see nothing wrong in giving the turf a helping hand. Nothing more than that. One could go to extremes in either direction, I reckon.

To follow on with Mike A.'s analogy, how many of us had various vacccines as children? For TB and polio, for example. Then there's the various 'flu jabs.

Preventative medicine.

Yep! My opinion, which may change over time, is to give the turf a little help with a bio-stimulant but, cultural practices aside, leave it to get on with it's job.

From the posh end of the room!!

10th Feb 2010 by Aladdin Last edited 10th Feb 2010

Deleted. Double post

From the posh end of the room!!

10th Feb 2010 by Mike A

No Buddhist monks that I know of over here, but give it time!

You make a valid point though, sports surfaces are subjected to unnatural levels of stress, and this is what the chemical industry has built its success on over the past 60 years. Let me use another analogy - if you took 2 sprinters, one who took steroids, and one who looked after themselves properly, who would win in a race? Probably the steroid enhanced athlete... but who would be the healthier person? Sure, sometimes we need to supplement with certain products, but to enable the person, or plant to become reliant on them spells trouble. Take the modern healthy athletes lifestyle and compare it to that of your everyday person on the street - their dietary needs are different - same goes with sports surfaces and natural, uninterupted turf.

For me, it is simply a case of finding what is good for the health of the plant, and disregarding the rest. You then look to maximize the effectiveness your cultural practices, and that of what products you do apply - then you are left with a turf performing at its optimum. If the wear dictates that the turf still can't meet the requirements placed upon it, then we have to look elsewhere, and by this I mean by moderating use etc. Sooner or later we will all have to start implementing usage thresholds instead of battering the surfaces to death and then struggling to keep them alive with what I could only really describe as life support products.

Mike

He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.

10th Feb 2010 by bath

Thats what we eat Mike, life support products.

11th Feb 2010 by Vic Demain

Been watching this thread with interest and time to throw in my own experiences gained during maintenance of our bowling green.
2 years ago my spending power was reduced, resulting in a green which has been starved of fertiliser, also water.
In that time the instances of fusarium and other disease has dropped to almost nothing. Whereas before I needed to spray monthly as a preventative, this year, the spray has not come out, even after the snow coverage.
The downside to all this however is that the health of the green, now looks the worst that I have seen. The grasses look sick and we have more moss than ever.
So the question is, whack on some 4-0-4+10%fe to try and address the moss, followed by attempting to increase the sward during the summer months and risk disease or carry on as I am and hope that a warm summer will check back the moss.
But hypothetical really as finances are not improved. Interesting discussion though.

"I don't believe it".

11th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Hi Vic,

It sounds like you saw an improvement in the health of your green and decided that least intervention was best. However, If this decison encouraged you to do less cultural practices, it is not surprising your green looks sick and moss infested. This is an assumption to which I opologise if incorrect!

The best cure for moss is not to reach for the chemical but to correct the condition that suits the moss. Moss thrives in compacted, wet soils and although you state that water was reduced in the summer, a wet winter like the current one will quickly see moss invade. Aeration, aeration and more aeration will go a long way to improving the health of you sward and see the demise of your moss. And aeration cost little more than man hours, whether it is a hand tine fork or a mechanical aerator.

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

11th Feb 2010 by Vic Demain

Hi Ken,

Good to hear from you again. Cultural practices have not been reduced. Have been out spiking at every opportunity, with different tines and surface pricking.

Unfortunately, like most bowling greens, we are surrounded by buildings and hedges, which help neither light or air flow. Difficult to correct those though! Don't think we suffer from compaction on the green and water goes through at a good rate. Perhaps all we need is a little sun on our backs.

Vic.

"I don't believe it".

11th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Hi Vic, I am glad I followed up with an opology for my assumption.

In the past when I managed bowling greens.... and I admit I am going back to the days when owning a wheel barrow was a luxury! But because resources were limited in terms of both maintenance budget and available mechanical equipment, we would fork the green with hand held Sissis forks and remove any thatch and moss with a springbok rake. There would usually be two or three of us doing the operation and to be honest it was often a good crack (fun) because there would always be a bit of banter going on to pass the time..... it would often take up to a week to do each operation.

Most bowling greens have high hedges and building around them, it would be interesting to hear from other bowling green managers to see if they have suffered similar fates this winter, and if they haven't was it down to the cultural programs or fertiliser input or reaching for the dreaded moss killer!

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

11th Feb 2010 by Vic Demain

Three men on a green for a week Ken, I can almost hear has2mow shaking his head in disbelief from here. Good times eh, jobs being done by hand. Now it seems the move is even to cut with triples. Guess we need to move on or catch up!! No apology required by the way.
Vic.

"I don't believe it".

12th Feb 2010 by jlawrence

I'm still amazed at the idea of cutting a bowling green with a triple. With most greens I've seen you'd struggle to get a wheelbarrow through the gate never mind a triple.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

12th Feb 2010 by has 2 mow

Could you imagine a customer phoning up for a quote to have their green spiked , thats 3 blokes for a week that will be £700 please . But to hand tine a green hat of to you Ken.

As for moss not suffered to bad this winter at all have kept up with my spiking weather permitting ,i have also only used iron on a couple of ocassions on only 1 or 2 greens so the greens have had a bit of a detox. The ones with moss are the greens that we took on last year with a healthy thatch layer, and hedges can be lowered a nice winter job. Been hit hard on a few greens with disease after a 5 week covering tho nothing active and an early spring will help.

Now back to Aladdin's hydrophobic soil do any of you feel that iron can kick in dry patch ?or am i alone on this theory .

Mark

12th Feb 2010 by bath

3 blokes for a week, thats £700 please sir. I could do with some of them has 2 mow. Are they poles ?

12th Feb 2010 by Ken Barber

Hang on guy's...... I did emphasis that it was some years ago..... The mid 80's in fact. The greens I was managing outside of work, I was charging £20 quid a week for 3 visits each week!

And the greens I was managing whilst in employment was in the late 70's early 80's! That is when there were 2 or 3 of us working on tineing or raking!

God I feel old all of a sudden!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where's my Zimmer?

KB

a well balanced person has a drink in both hands

12th Feb 2010 by has 2 mow

Hey Bath

£700 was just a figure that came to mind not a true reflection of today's costs and the minimum wage , but to actually do the sums for 3 men for a week would make clubs fall over . so modern machinery has made it much cheaper than it was a few years back but still they complain about the prices ?

Ken

£20 for 3 visits a week, clubs still expect that know so no change there then .

Anyone with any thoughts on the iron and dry patch?

Mark

12th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Iron and Dry Patch?

What prompted this theory?

What we do know is that an excess of iron can cause Black layer. Is there any correlation?

There are those who will add iron to their winter sports pitches seemingly without any adverese effects. So, on that basis, no iron doesn't cause Dry Patch.

An excess of iron leading to Dry Patch/Black Layer?

Hmmm. Interesting.

I wouldn't know. I'd like some more details as to how you arrive at this theory Mr. mow.

From the posh end of the room!!

12th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

I don't know if anyone has suffered any adverese effects, especially since I don't know what they are.

Adverse effects, on the other hand, we all know about, I'm sure!!!

From the posh end of the room!!

12th Feb 2010 by Barry Pace

Have seen the build up of iron oxide in greens before due to overuse/locking, nice and toxic to roots...

Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......

14th Feb 2010 by has 2 mow

Hi Alladdin

My views and thoughts are my own on iron and hydrophobic soil . Not saying i am right or wrong but i would love to learn more .

Now you will remember the green that i posted about with dry patch its history was high iron use the results that were tested were 261.60 with a guide line of 150 so quite a bit over .

The second point that started to make me think along these lines was last year when i applied some iron for a tournament , it was shortly followed by an outbreak of dry patch .And also the results came back high iron content.

And finally a course near me use to use a fair bit of iron and also suffered dry patch , up until they bought a new sprayer and cut way down on the use of iron .

So to think is it related the jury is out , but it does make me think .

Mark

15th Feb 2010 by Anthony Asquith

Mark

The simple answer is that, Iron (Fe+) causes soils of hydrophobic nature because Fe Oxides set like cement and, will effectively seal the surface. It is the same as when Fe pans occur.

Cheers

AA

15th Feb 2010 by Aladdin

Now then. Just to add something to the mix.

Mr Asquith appears to be saying that iron doesn't cause hydrophobicity but will affect soils that are prone to it. Is this correct?

Mr mow, I see what you're saying. How far does one stretch coincidence?

However, in your examples, it appears we're talking over-application. My understanding is that an over application of anything will have a detrimental effect.

By the way, how is that green performing that you used your fabricated 'syringe' upon?

From the posh end of the room!!

15th Feb 2010 by Martin Wythe

Straying a little does the application of Iron sulphate precipitate
soluble phosphate as iron phosphate thus making it unavailable?

15th Feb 2010 by williams1

Over and frequent applications of Iron will cause this reaction. Iron will then take the form of Fe+++ thus making it extremely unsoluble and therefore unavailable. This though will not cause hydrophobicity on its own but will probably not help the cause regards recovery or visual turf vigour. I've also seen some nice phytotoxic reactions to surfactants and fungicides when this lock up has occurred. SCARY!!! Bulk applications of dolomitic lime will help displace the iron with some nice Mg to take its place. That is not to say Ca will help with hydrophobic conditions though.

15th Feb 2010 by Anthony Asquith

Hi Martin

Iron can be absorbed very strongly onto clays due to their strong tri-valent bonding but, as Williams1 said, it is rapidly precipitated out of solution with Phosphorus. The availability of Fe depends on the soil PH, it is more available at acid PH values. The precipitation by the way, occurs when two soluble ions, such as Iron and Phosphate react to create insoluble, complexed or seaquestered precipitated compounds - ex Fe Phosphate.

In the case of what I said before, excess Iron Oxides cause pans and as aluded by Williams1 (again), a soil with excess Iron will cement together to form an impermeable layer. Small amounts of Fe ions in soils are esential and will convey good structure, just as Ca+2 and Mg+2 does.

Cheers

AA

15th Feb 2010 by has 2 mow

Hi Anthony

Many thanks for the reply , as you no doubt no i take on greens at any time of the year and in all manner of conditions normally pretty bad ones . so we never know what is happening below our feet or what has been done in the past , it is not until we get a detailed soil test done that we find the results . And then work towards improvement
of the green . But as budgets are normally pretty tight we get there slowly . And after nearly 20 years i still love the job and never stop learning .

Aladdin

The Green has done very well from where it was heading , the fixed price i gave them was not enough but i think we broke even at the end . But a sense of self pride that it was saved, and they have found some more money for next year and they are happy customers , they are currently spiking quite a bit .

Mark

15th Feb 2010 by Barry Pace

Its all about balance but unfortunately on fine turf through the 60s, 70s and 80s a lot of iron, like all bottled magic available then, was wapped on without realisation of the consequences. It still can happen now if the soil condition/circumstances are wrong or knowledge lacking and fe deposits build up and then 'sit' locked in soils. There is also a train of thought that soil pans actually catch and hold in concentration chemical residual from products and this further excarsperates shallow rooting by the toxic nature of the build up.
If you did an in depth soil analysis of the make up at the mid/lower regions many sport surfaces would actually be classed as toxic material and would need disposal at one of only a few contaminated soil locations.
Some of the new wetters and soil breakers do help 'flush' these out along with good aeration practices, in worst case scenarios looking at the more scientific products such as polyacrylamides or similar derived may work better due to the ionic and 'chain' effects that allow these nasty chemical build ups to stop sticking to soil particles.

Global Warming?... Pass me my thermals.......