This seems to be getting so expensive, just getting cylinders and bottom plates sharpened.
Im lucky as I have a contact who does it on the side as it were. But normally the cost is getting a big problem. Not that we have any choice but it is a big hole inn a clubs budget.
I wonder if there is a living to be made for having a grinding machine and offering a simple re grinding service? Dont know if these machines can be leased?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry, when you look at the price of those grinders you'll have your own answer 
.
The problem is that you need to grind both the cylinder and bottom blade. Unless you've one of the newer machines that means stripping the machine to bits in order to do the grinding. The grinding itself is pretty cheap, it's the time involved in stripping the stuff to bits which costs.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Well Jon. The guys who do the work get paid peanuts so the cost to a company is not much, the labour charge is where I think they make the most profit, much like having a car serviced etc. in a garage. Of course the overheads are a major issue and I have a rough idea of the cost of the grinding machines, yes they are expensive. But it takes very little time to actually re-grind them once the units are off - good money I reckon if you can get enough of it.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
If you're serious then look at the machines that can take a mower without stripping it down. As a business on it's own I can't imagine that the sums would add up.
I'd imagine Cal and/or Sumo would be the best people to speak to about this.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Oh just thinkiig out loud Jon. One of my lads has just finished an apprenticeship with about the biggest companies in this area. Hes going travelling for six months, maybe in the future but my attempt at runniing a business in the past ( sports shop) was a disaster and my missus would go mental if I suggested doing something again!
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
13 Feb 2010 by chrismitchell Last edited 13 Feb 2010
Barry we have spent £25000 on a new grinder for all our blade sharpening. It will take nearly 10 years to get our money back and we're maintaining 2 golf courses. It would just not be practical for a cricket club. As others have said, the stripping down and cleaning of parts all take time. Even if a grinder is capable of in situ grinding, it is only really for a mid season sharp up. At the end of the season it is important for the cutters to be taken out and inspected for signs of damage. Bearings, seals etc to be checked and or replaced along with the bottom blade and the parts repainted. That all takes time which to any firm is money. Something along the lines of £2 per inch of cylinder and bottom blade of a stripped out machine is the going rate around this area.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
13 Feb 2010 by GaryA
Just got the bill for the annual service / sharpen / decoke of our Ransomes 51 for our bowls club up here in Preston
Bottom blade 32.91
2 Cylinder bearings 27.42
1 Roller Drive Chain 15.29
1 Throttle Lever 14.70
1 Throttle Cable 5.61
2 Cylinder Locknuts 1.00
2 Front Roller Locknuts 0.80
8 Screws 2.80
1 Spark Plug 4.00
Engine Oil 4.00
Sundries 1.00
c + d 3.00
Labour 178.75
Subtotal 291.28
Vat 50.97
Total 342.25
Looking forward to explaining that to the committee next Tuesday night !
Be Just and Fear Not
Chris, I would like every cricket club in the land to read your reply. The critiscism that i have had in the past, cost more to service the mower than my car. The time spent stripping down and rebuilding usually equates to about a days labour, as you say, the grinding is the cheap bit. The times i have turned up at clubs becuase they say there grass does not look right, only to find that the cut is poor becuase a bering has gone in roller, or worse still, they are trying to cut the grass with a bearing gone on the cylinder. All had it serviced in the winter, in situ grinding.
One bowling club were after me a few years ago. I had apparently buggered there green becuase i had spiked it. I had not been near the place as it happens. Turned up to have a look, i was dead as far as they were concerned. As it happens, the grass had been badly cut. I inspected the mower, what did i find, the rear rolling bearing had collapsed. I could see that as i approached the mower, did not have to use it to find that out. All down to cheap or non existent servicing but i get the blame. I will add that it was the clubs responsibility to mow the green not mine.
Almost identical to the bills i get for each machine serviced GaryA.
mine's normally around 250 +vat - give or take. It all depends on what I want/need them to do.
Having an inhouse mechanic means I don't have to pay for a complete service every year - sometimes we do if we need them to replace something for us (they might as well do the full service at the same time).
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Chris
Was not thinking of going into business for myself and just doing re-grinding! My son is a qualified mechanic in this area.
Just thinking out load maybe for him in future.
Fully aware of whats involved and that it can vary an awful
lot, depending to some degree on what state the mower is when it comes in.
The company my son works for would rather probably do a service though than sell a new machine, percentage wise, I think they make more money out of it cos their mark up, according to their manager , is quite low on machinery.For example, 2k on a 35k tractor. Whereas, on a labour charge of £200 on a pedestrian mower which may take 8 hours, could be less could be more, the percentage profit would be higher. Dont think they make that much on the parts.
Anyway, my original comment was merely to say that say for a cricket club with a triple and 2 pedestrian mowers to have serviced every year, finding 1500 quid is a huge task.
Catch 22 will probably rear its head currently, cos clubs will try and get away without servicing to some degree but that could end up costing them even more and result in a sub standard playing surface.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Jeez. Do you guys all drive beemers or rollers or something?
Clubs like mine buy a square mower for half what you are spending on an annual service - and getting three or four year service out of them before sending them to the great skip in the sky. And when I do get a new mower - it happens - I take the cost out of a service by stripping the mower down myself before getting the regrind. And would I ever pay a bloke to fit a new cable - forget it!
Wow, how the other half lives....(can you rich guys send me some of your spare cash please?)
The ciderman rolls
14 Feb 2010 by pacman75cricket
Same here Jon as much done as possible by myself also by doing this I am able transport easily to be ground etc.
Probably about £100 for cylinder block to be stripped & grind for wicket mower. I remove the cylinders myself.
Jon, youre buying a square mower for £150? Must be in great shape then mate.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Also, even if I was capable of doing what you say, which I am not, my wicket mower needs a special tool to take the cylinder off.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry,
I spend time looking for a bargain - and when I find it I don't mess around.
My current square mower is a Hayter Ambasador 2 bought off e-bay. It has a solid cylinder (8 or 9 blade, can't remember which) that gives a very good cuts per meter and a good bottom blade and engine. It had been serviced and sharpened. In a full season so far it's cost me an oil change and a recycled bike brake cable for clutch release.
Purchase cost - £120.
If I get 3 seasons out of it, with judicious use of back-lapping, then I'm quids in. I expect it to run for 5 years plus.
You can take the P as much as you like Barry, but who's got the better value?
When I can get a grant for a brand new machine, of course I will take it. But even on my 3 year old Protea I do all of the servicing that i possibly can. What some of you are paying for labour on a single mower service is more than I spend each year on seed - and I know I spend more on seed than most other groundsmen around here.
The ciderman rolls
Jon
I admire what you do but I am not capable of being a mechanic as well so therefore I am not taking the P, rather more mate, it waas you doing that suggesting I and others were driving beamers and rollers!
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
As a volunteer jon i admire you, you do brilliant for your club and the recreational game.
I am paid to be the Head Groundsman, and although i carry out many different tasks i am not paid to be the mechanic.
I am very capable of stripping a mower and many more machines, i was after all employed for several years as an HGV mechanic. However, when i was a mechanic, i did not cut the bosses grass, nor did i hoover out the company car.
Do you service your company car ? all beit you are no doubt very capable.
Horses for courses jon, when i was in your position i did it all also, very often a length of string came to my rescue. However, i have moved on.
14 Feb 2010 by tonybolton Last edited 14 Feb 2010
Needed a total new cylinder on mine plus bottom blade, bearings roller bearings in all with a very good service filters etc etc labour oil you name it £900 but I've got a Certes wicket mower that cannot be bettered, it does a great job and at least 20 years old buy one now £3500 and a totally inferior machine
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Company car Bath??
The ciderman rolls
Obviously not Jon !
GaryA, where did you get yours done? just speaking to a groundsman in lancs and he could have been reading from your post. LOL (PM me, dont put it on here)
There are very many levels of groundsmen out there some are more profcient than others, and some realy are not mechanically minded. In my experience a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and I have seen mowers ruined because of good intentions, know your limitations.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
15 Feb 2010 by Charles Johnson
Less well off clubs risk it without major annual servicing, if you have to and provided you care for and service the machines well yourself then so be it. Ride-ons and rough cut rotaries etc. Some clubs seem to go forever without sharpening gang mowers.
If we had to to pay for a full service on everything each year it would be unaffordable, so we have to make balancing judgements or be creative. For example I'm hoping to share a large outfield cylinder mower with a local school, it would only be used by us for final presentation in the second half of the season when growth rates have calmed down and the school only uses it for "show" days. We would probably not need to get it fully serviced and reground every year, and even then we would share the cost.
On the other hand, some machines absolutely have to be fully serviced and re-sharpened etc. My Certes track mower starts every year with a beautiful clean cut, but struggles towards the end of the year and cannot go without a proper sharpen etc. I know some clubs do a full re-sharpen during the season too. The workshop also does the full engine and bearings etc service, and it costs about £350 pa as others have reported. I cannot imagine a wiser or more important way of spending the money.
Charles
I think the least you have to do is a re-sharpen of cylinders and bottom blades. Oil change I can manage and leave the rest to the lap of the Gods
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
15 Feb 2010 by olaf
Regular back lapping saves £'s, lobbing it in the shed at the end of the season then wondering why it's a heap of seized rust in the spring when you try to use it costs £'s.
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
I don't want to appear cynical but when I look at the used machinery section of this board many mowers are advertised between £1k and £2k all are fully serviced reground new blades etc etc and totally up for the job. Why are they being sold?.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother
Tony, cos the blokes selling them have bought them for £400 and done them up themselvess probably.
Olaf, I dont think backlapping changes the need for a proper re-grind for the next season. Not having a sharp cylinder at isnt good for the grass is it?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry,
Have you ever back-lapped and then refaced your bottom blades? You might be surprised how effective it can be if you tried it.
Back lap paste - about £30 for a large tub - I use medium and fine grades dependant on mower. My current estimate is that these will do me three mowers (total 66") plus the Saxon triple two or three times each year, for about four to five years. Diamond file to clean up front face of bottom blade on the pedestrian mowers - about £10 (don't yet know how long that will last).
"Proper" regrinds only planned when bottom blades need replacing - clearly this works out as more often for the wicket mower than for the square mower, and I have no current plan to regrind the Saxon. Emergency "proper" regrinds are also done following blade damage - eg studs.
Even at £1.50 an inch, the cost of routine regrinding our mowers would be almost £200 per year and cut would deteriorate through the season. Back lapping costs less than 10% of that (working on volunteer labour) and can be done whenever cut drops off.
If done carefully, back lapping is no more hazardous than setting the blades. All you need is paste, a paint brush and a variable speed hand drill to reverse drive the cylinder plus safety specs to keep paste splashes out of your eyes.
The ciderman rolls
I could try it on the triple but as that has reverse but would not risk doing it on wicket mowers and piddling about with a handrilll etc, I like my hands. I know that if I have the mowers reground, they will get through the season ok. whilst the club has the budget for this, I would rather get it done professionally and because of my family connection, I get it done cheap anyway, not worth messsing about with but as usual, thanks for the advice.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry
and piddling about with a handrilll etc, I like my hands,
Is this the same Barry who's using a cranking handle to start his roller (is it going yet)
Sorry Barry
Should have looked at poweroll post
Paul
I havent got a choice with my current roller though, no other way of starting it.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
16 Feb 2010 by GaryA
Hey up Steve
I will ring you in the morning
Regards
Gary
Be Just and Fear Not
Isn't working next to the blades of your triple with engine running infinitely more dangerous than holding a hand drill in two hands next to a mower with no engine running?
For anyone willing to try this economic approach, this is the method which I have found and assessed to be safe. You should, of course, perform your own competance and risk assessment.
NEVER EVER DO THIS WITH THE MOWER RUNNING.
First disconnect the drive chain / belt. Paint the paste on with the cylinder static and the drill nowhere near the mower. You then hold the drill (fitted with appropriate socket drive) in two hands, connect it to the drive nut on the cylinder shaft and slowly squeeze the trigger. Grind slowly. When the grinding stops or cylinder runs more freely, disconnect the drill, repaint paste, repeat grind. Adjust blades if necessary. Repeat until blades show uniform shine along length.
Don't ever put your hands anywhere near the spinning blades!
Finally, carefully hand file front edge of bottom blade using a fine file - eg a diamond file. A pair of cut resistant gloves would be sensible at this stage if you choose to do this with blade strill in the machine.
Thoroughly wash down at end of grinding and then re-adjust blade setting. Reconnect drive system.
Simple. Safe. Effective.
On some mowers the nut on the end of the drive shaft undoes in the clockwise direction. For such a mower I have drilled a threaded hole into the end of the shaft and when back-lapping fit a suitable bolt into this hole and drive on the head of the bolt.
The ciderman rolls
Where did I say I was going to do anything with the triple running? No I didnt and wouldnt.
I am not a mechanic and will not be disconnecting any drive belts or chains. People like my son train to do a job properly for a reason.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Barry
About six posts back ( I could try it on the triple as that has reverse ) I also use jons method have just adapted a socket drive bar, when doing the triple the machine has to run to drive the hydraulic pump and I start and stop the reel with the valve, also have a paint brush on a 15" handle, like you I like my fingers where they are.
Youre in a fortunate position if you have your son on hand to carry out repairs/sharpening and the bonus of saving a few quid.
Sorry Paul. I have no idea how to do it and do not intend to try.
My triple gets through the season after it has the cylinders and bottom blades sharpened so I am not going to mess about with it and would not attempt going anywhere near the cylinder mowers.
I think some guys whilst far more practical and useful than I, are spoiling their clubs to a degree. Clubs should be made aware of how much machinery cost to run and should budget for that as a priority. If these guys who do it themselves are suddenly unable to the job, it comes as a real shock when clubs have to pay the normal price for servicing etc.
Ive seen clubs spend monies on paying players and yet their grounds are not great and their machinery not much better.
it is true, if I had to pay the full cost,it would bbe a problem but I will cross that bridge when I come to it. I know my limitations.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Youve hit the nail on the head Barry spending money on players. but if you go to the person with deep pockets and ask if you want a team to compete at the best level or have a nice ground its a no contest.
These sad people who bankroll players dont stay around mate because they are only in it for their egos and not for cricket or the club.
They know who they are, no time for them myself.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
17 Feb 2010 by olaf
regular back lapping is no more than any other maintenance operation you should be carrying out, you put fuel in it, check oil levels, clean plug & air filter, grease bearings etc, well I hope you do. So why not ensure the most vital part of the machine, the one that you've got the thing for is working in optimum condition?
It is neither difficult/time consuming or expensive to do so there is no excuse.
Blunt, poorly adjusted blades cause excessive wear, a poor finish and damage the plant rendering it susceptable to disease. When operator training I always make a point of instilling the need for regular basis maintemance and as far as I'm concerned back lapping is part of regular periodic maintenance.
The results speak for themselves in a smooth running machine that gives a good quality cut for an extended period with reduced wear on cylinder and bottom blade thus extending periods between regrinds and replacing bottom blade. All that for a few minutes work.
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
Olaf
I agree that the blades need to be in good condition, thats why I get them professionally done. I do the other things you mention.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Gary, sorry mate I am on holiday this week so the works phone is OFF. :)) back in on Monday, give me a call and I'll make you a brew.
I remember buying JD handmowers some 15 years ago and the back lapping kit was a hand crank that screwed into the end of the cylinder shaft, surprisingly effective and safe.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
I have never backlapped in the past. However, this year I didn't have the budget to resharpen my triple so I lapped it and I was amazed at how easy it was to do.
Simply paint the stuff on, turn the reels into reverse, run the triple, check and repeat, then a good wash down. In total I reckon it must have taken no longer than 30 minutes.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
As I said Jon, I could have a go on my triple, I might try it half way through the season. What grade of paste did you use? Do you paint it on all edges of the blades and the bottom blade?
But I m not going to mess about with my wicket mowers.
But I also understand needs must.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
18 Feb 2010 by Mike
Barry, for our triple mower this is what I do:
Set mower in to park and remove key
Chock wheels so mower can't move
Set cylinders to reverse (so I don't forget once I have cylinders running)
Apply a thin layer of lapping paste to half of the knives
Fire up and run slowly for 15 minutes
Stop mower and remove key again
Adjust the cylinders so there is contact again
Apply more paste and run again for another 15 minutes
Disengage cylinders and clean blades thoroughly
Return cylinders to rotate in right direction
Re-adjust cylinders and away you go
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