16 Feb 2010 by Torch
Men,
I have decided to purchase a turf iron this year. We have demoe'd a few and now it appears to be a straight fight between the Tru-Turf and the Gambetti model. Both good machines, any thoughts from current users?
Cheers,
Torchio
The answer is None more black.
Torch,
We are going into our third season with the tru turfs having previously run with Woodbay(Gambetti) and Graden models.
I would rate them as 1 - Tru Turf. 2 - Graden. 3 - Woodbay.
The Woodbay comes with a trailer for transport which proved very handy for other things such as transporting the sod cutter around. The machine itself is built well enough but is less maneuverable than the other two and crucially was slightly less effective in increasing ball roll in a side by side test with the tru turf.
The Graden feels lighter and more maneuverable and has a steering wheel to control direction which everyone liked. It uses a similar transport system to the tru turf. It has a twin split roller at one side. The split has an overlap to eliminate any potential for "missed bits" which is a nice feature.
Tru turf gave the biggest increase in ball roll of the three. It was also the most maneuverable. Although the single bar steering does feel weird at first everyone took to it pretty quickly. The triple, split rollers are, I believe, the reason behind the machines increased effectiveness in increasing pace although in damp conditions these are a pain to keep clean. The split in the middle of the rollers has on occasion caused a small line to appear on the greens. This always fades within a few minutes so has never caused a problem.
Hope this helps.
You can PM me for more if you like.
Tru-Turf.
Remove the spiker - if fitted.
GOGGA
Scotty,
How the devil are you?
Im with Sumomosr on this one and would go with with the Tru-Turf all the way.
We currently run 2 here at St Nom and have had no problems what so ever with them (even with the spiker fitted....though I do get where Sumo is coming from)
Also if you get the lights kit fitted to your machine, make sure your guys dont transport at top speed on bumpy terain, as they do have a tendancy to snap at the weld if they are constantly bumped around.
DE
Learning is there for every man
Hi Torch, our bowls club is keen to purchase a turf iron. Do you have a contact telephone no or a web site address for the Tru-Turf please so that we can get some info. Have googled turf irons but without much sucess for a uk site.
Thanks
18 Feb 2010 by Richard Cutler Last edited 18 Feb 2010
http://www.doublea.co.uk/shop.cfm?ProductID=919&Type=N
18 Feb 2010 by Torch
Thanks All,
Sumo- why remove the spiker?
I was tending towards the Woodbay to be honest. The built-in draw bar on the Tru-turf looks like being a bit of a ball-ache to drag around after a few greens and the trailer on the Woodbay would be very useful for transporting handmowers etc,.
Also, there are spiker and brush attachments which can be fitted easily to the Woodbay, it is also CHEAPER! Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!
Come on guys, change my mind! Haven't ordered anything yet....
Teaboy, try the Double AA Trading company or Campey's website as they are our local dealer in the North West. Double AA are the importers.
The answer is None more black.
Teaboy,
The Tru-Turf is the Rolls Royce of greens rollers and has hydrostatic drive system, but is priced accordingly,
For bowls you might like to consider a more budget friendly machine which is belt-driven such as the Turf-Tec.
Bowls rollers don't have to work nearly as long or hard as a golf roller and so a belt driven power-train is more than adequate and durable.
Also note that due to having to cope with undulating geens the golf rollers are 48 inches long whereas the bowls rollers are usually 60 inches.
Interesting to note that the Tru-Turf, Turf-Tec and Graden rollers are all made in Australia.
GOGGA
Torch,
The spiker has a tendency to rip up weaker turf.
Removing it removes the possibility of operators deploying it and you can send out a spiker only where/when necessary.
Tru-turf rollers are in many golf clubs and many of these clubs have the spiker attachments gathering dust under a bench within a few hours use.
GOGGA
18 Feb 2010 by Eddy21 Last edited 18 Feb 2010
Torch,
On the Tru-Turf it is relatively easy to engage the spiker AND if you have one of those Herberts (every team has one, some have more!!....the kind who breaks the light kit, by driving too fast) who accidentally knocks it into the engaged position, he may well spike your greens before a big club competition and not even notice it!!! Now I'm a big fan of any form of aeration BUT there is a time and a place!!!
Personally, I think its a great call by Sumo and something I hadn't considered. One less thing to worry about is always high on my agenda 
Regards
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Quite agree re the spiker idea. Our two will be taken off tomorrow. Thanks for the tip Sumomosr. Would you happen to know what kind of hydraulic oil should be used in the machine?
Torch
8 out of ten cats prefer the tru turf. It is a much more user friendly machine. The ball-ache draw bar has actually been a saving grace a few times when the machine has been stuck in an awkward spot, just pop it on to its wheels and pull it back onto more level ground. If the same happens on the woodbay then you are truly stuck. Also, the tru turf changes direction more smoothly and with less "wheelspin" in wet conditions than the woodbay. I have seen the marks on the green apron at the end of each run a few times. Operator training does eliminate this but the woodbay is defo more prone.
But most importantly, the tru turf is lighter but manages to add more speed per iron to the green. Surely the biggest selling point of all.
RWC,
Out of interest have you got a link to the cited research carried out on the above 3 types of turf irons and average BRD increase findings?
Cheers in advance
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Older machines with the Snow Nabstedt or Eaton 7 Hydrostat specify ''Ampol 'Tacoma 100' oil or equivalent''.
For newer machines with the remote oil reservoir and filter an ISO 68 hydraulic oil should be ok.
John Deere HyGard is good. The Low Viscosity HyGard even better.
GOGGA
All hail the antipodean grease covered sophos called sumo...
Bow Bow Bow,.....
ROFL hope your well sumo..........
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Dave,
The research was done in-house in side by side tests carried out over a week with our own machine (woodbay at the time) and the other two on demo. I have read stuff from the states which put the tru-turf behind a salsco if i remember correctly. I'll have a look for that tomorrow.
Sumomosr
Thanks for the info. Much appreciated
18 Feb 2010 by Eddy21 Last edited 18 Feb 2010
Hi RWC,
Thanks for your reply.
The research from the states was carried out by T Nikolia (2002) and yes you are right the tru-turf was just behind the salsco in the trals he carried out over a 2 year spell.
I initially thought that the research you had cited would have been carried out by the King of Greenspeed data himself (Dr Nikolia) hence my initial question. Though, I think its great that you have conducted your own trials on your own site.
I did a small research trial myself on the effects of mowing and rolling on both USGA and soil construction greens here in Paris earlier this year as part of my BSc. I used one of the Tru-Turf machines we have for the purpose of this.
Although the trial was only carried out over a day my findings were as follows:
Rolling further enhanced green speed on both types of construction after mowing. Mean average ball roll distances figures show that the soil based green speed measurements were increased further by 19 cm (7.48 in) compared to the USGA constructions which increased by 18cm (7.08 in).
It would have been interesting to carry it out over a longer time period but I would have been collecting data for ever!!
Though in saying that I was very surprised at the consistancy over the 2 types of construction.
Torch, I am slightly biased and have nothing but praise for the Tru-Turf machine, though in fairness I have never tried the Gambetti roller.
Have you thought about doing a trial such as the one that RWC carried out? That way you can really see the pros and cons with your own eyes, on your own site and then draw up your own conclusions, also taking into consideration the PC users personal thoughts and experiences before making your final decision.
Regards
Dave
Learning is there for every man
19 Feb 2010 by Torch
Hi All,
The response to my original posting has been really useful and I am grateful to all who have responded.
In the words of our treasurer, 'Don't buy the cheapest one, buy the best one'. When I woke up and got up off the floor I set about canvassing opinions.
We have demo'd the Tru-turf, the Smithco and a set of vibrating rollers which fit on the greens mower. The Tru-turf achieved the fastest roll as measured with a Stimp meter, the Smithco was next and then the vibrating rollers.
I ruled out the rollers early on as being too heavy for continued use on the machine, a faff to install and generally too expensive for what they are.
I liked the steering on the Smithco and the trailer but the Tru-turf did give a much better roll.
The Woodbay has thrown a spanner in at the last moment as I was ready to place an order for a Tru-turf at BTME. Unfortunately we cannot do a proper demo as the ground is frozen and we want to get the thing in by April.
The sensible thing to do would be to go with my instincts and the advice of you good people and order the Tru-turf but I confess to a few nagging doubts about the hitch point. Does this not wear a bit thin after 18 greens, pulling it over the top and shuffling it about?
Also, I have been told that the Tru-turf can leave a line down the middle, what do people think?
Cheers men.
The answer is None more black.
19 Feb 2010 by Bjarni Hannesson
Dave, if you are referring to this study by Dr. Nikolai: http://www.speedroller.com/04Rollin.pdf
then the Salsco statistically doesn't give a significantly faster greenspeeds compared with the True Turf. There is a trend towards faster mean "day-after-rolling" speed with the Salsco, but statistically there isn't a difference. So the Salsco and the Tru-Turf give the same results according to the data.
If I can throw another spanner into your decision making Torch, then you might wan't to consider the Speed Roller (www.speedroller.com). In Dr. Nikolai's study it is the roller that produced the highest mean increase in greenspeed. Again, statisticaly it isn't faster than the True-Turf, but gave a steady mean increase, and was always in the fastest group with the highest mean score.
I don't know who is (or if there is any) the dealer in the UK. I personally haven't used them, apart from riding down the isle at the GIS show few years back, I don't think that counts for much.
19 Feb 2010 by Bjarni Hannesson
Just to ad to this, the difference between those turf irons tends to be less than the 6" in BRD, so you can argue the law of diminishing returns here and say that what ever model you do use, golfers won't notice the difference (they will notice increased greenspeed, but not the difference between each model).
However, if you do use vibrating rollers attached to triplex mowers, then they might feel the difference between them and the fastest turf irons.
I would thus suggest getting the iron that has the best built quality and best dealership.
I agree that the research by Dr. Nikolai concludes that there isn't much difference between the rollers tested. The main difference is between greens rolled v. not rolled. ie. If you want improved greenspeed with reduced cutting stress it doesn't much matter what brand you roll with. As long as you roll...
There is a differential between the 'types' of roller - Pedestrian, Ride-on, Triplex, Vibrating etc.
Having said that, in Golf there is a timing issue where a window exists in the mornings and rolling (just as mowing) has to be completed by a certain time.
Thus the roller which can get around the course quickly and efficiently will have an advantage for the course superintendent. In this regard the Tru-Turf wins hands-down due to it's integral trailer frame.
No jockeying when unloading/unhitching and reloading etc. Just pull up next to the green, flip the frame and go rolling. Some guys leave the engine on tick-over between greens to save even more time. Budget cuts may make this use of fuel undesirable nowadays.
Flipping the frame is easy and the little shock absorber reduces wear on the hinge attachmenet point while the automatic latch ensures the frame stays up out of the way. (Replace the spring annually to prevent unplanned release of the frame when rolling).
Most courses will have 2 rollers and schedule 9 holes each of a morning.
I'm well thanks Barry. Summer here. Nearly too warm!
GOGGA
20 Feb 2010 by Torch
Men,
Many thanks again, this is all good stuff. Could I now ask you all about frequency.
How often are you all rolling, once a week or once a month or whatever? I appreciate it will most likely depend on a lot of factors but what is the average for general play?
Cheers and lovely,
Torch.
The answer is None more black.
20 Feb 2010 by Bjarni Hannesson
Most studies have shown that during active growth, you can roll the greens every other day without causing increased compaction or stress to the turf.
If high speeds is what you are after, you can use the 1/3 rule. According to studies, golfer judge the pace of greens on the last 1/3 of the area around the hole. This means that you can roll every day 1/3 of the green nearest to the pin, given that you rotate your pin locations in such a fashion that no area of the green gets rolled more than every other day. This way you can make the greens play very fast, without risking too much stress to the turf, or you can just raise your HOC but still maintain your greenspeed.
If you are using PGR's on your greens, you can save a lot of time if you skip mowing and just roll 1/3 of the greens if you have other labour intensive jobs to do on the course.
Hope this helps.
Bjarni
20 Feb 2010 by Torch
Thanks for that,
Just to try and wring every last ounce of juice out of this topic can I ask if anyone is using these machines on any other areas of their courses, such as tees or fairways?
Also, has anyone found an alternative use for the machine that makes it more versatile, fringe benefits and so on?
Cheers,
Torch.
The answer is None more black.
Torch,
Frequency-
Once a fortnight(ish) out of season. Usually after slit tining.
In season, 2 to 3 times per week. To replace mowing on each occassion.
During tournaments, target roll daily sometimes double roll. Also, in tournaments we will sometimes iron the green collar and the surrounds of greenside bunkers. I don't like to see the ball stop rolling just before it goes in a bunker!
I know that some of the fairways at Carnoustie were ironed prior to the 2007 Open Championship.
Rich
20 Feb 2010 by Eddy21 Last edited 20 Feb 2010
Torch
Frequency in the growing season: Every other day, though the roller will be out every day, either on the red or the blue course.
We dont roll any other areas with the machines.
Dave
Learning is there for every man
20 Feb 2010 by Sumomosr Last edited 20 Feb 2010
Alternate rolling days with mowing as RWC and Eddy describe unless under tournament conditions.
Other uses? No. It's a dedicated greens roller. Ask the chairman if he has any other uses for his golf trundler - such as taking the rubbish bin out or carrying the shopping bags at the supermarket.
Fringe benefits? these are documented in Dr Nikolai's study- Less stress on the turf from daily mowing whilst maintaining greenspeed.
Less wear 'n tear on greens mowers from less hours in use with a consequent budget saving on maintenance/grinding/blades etc.
GOGGA
Hi Torch and Sumomosr,
Just a quick point,
We use the rollers in conjunction with every day mowing in the growing season.
Though as a rule of thumb we dont do a clean up cut on the day of rolling. The frequency of the clean up cut will decrease even further (maybe as little as once a week) when it gets really warm in the summer.
Dave
Learning is there for every man
Tres bien.
GOGGA
21 Feb 2010 by Torch
Men,
A big thank you to all of you, this thread and your responses have been really helpful.
Torch.
The answer is None more black.
21 Feb 2010 by sss
The true turf seems to be coming out tops with course managers.We had 1 out on demo and found that grass seemed to catch on the rollers. But on a closer look at the rollers you would how you could get a good roll which grass getting caked up on the rollers........
When i asked the rep about this he reply was to try keep the machine on the green and do a clean up lap with the roller. This would stop grass clipping gathering on the roller.
The question I would like to put to u all. Is this the norm or can brushes be fitted or scrapers be fitted to eliminate this problem.
This would be my only concern about this machine
sss
Hi Torch
Recent studies in Penn State, which are ongoing, have proven that increased frequency of rolling decreases levels and severity of anthracnose. This could prove a very useful tool and money saver during your stress periods. There are obviously other variables and contributing factors but the results are clear. Will try and find links for you. If not you might find links through the Grigg Bros site who have been working with foliar products in conjunction with Penn State. This is where I came across info initially.
22 Feb 2010 by Torch Last edited 22 Feb 2010
Thats interesting, can't quite see how the two things are linked though. I had always assumed that anthracnose, or Anthrax Nose as my old boss called it, was linked to surface moisture. Perhaps with increased rolling the moisture moves down the profile. More likely would be the brushing/switching effect of dew removal. Interested to see how that study pans out.
The answer is None more black.
Over here anthracnose is regarded as being caused/accelerated by excess stress on the plant so it's easy to explain the thought process of rolling decreasing the severity of anthracnose. By rolling you can reduce mowing frequency and/or raise height of cut which reduces stress on the plant and therefore indirectly reduces the severity/occurance of anthracnose.
As for rollers I know a lot of guys here are big fans of the Trueturf also. I haven't tried one so can't comment but I have used Salscos for over ten years and have nothing but great results with them.
Alan FitzGerald, LedgeRock Golf Club
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