Hi Guys
Was thinking of having a crack at lowering the saddles on the ends of the square, I have a sisis autoturfman with 3/8" hollowtines, I presume ground conditions need to be right not too wet but not firm, just wondered if it would be more beneficial to be done prior to PSR or after on a firmer ground.
Thanks Paul
Paul
Isnt it a bit late for this? Ive only ever seen this done at end of season.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Maybe barry but was too hard end of last season
Well, personally, I wouldnt attempt it now. I would have thought it needs to be done at same time as end of season renovations so the loam/seed marries up with the rest of the square. If you tried to do it now, you would risk not having anywhere near enough growth etc. But there are much better blokes on here than me to offer advice.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
25 Feb 2010 by pacman75cricket
I was thinking the same but someone recommended could do this before pre-season rolling as this will close up holes.
Also would only be hollow coring upto 4ft in front of crease. So shouldnt cause too much of a problem at all re how pitch plays as too full.
When the weather allows I will be doing this prior to PSR.
Paul it depends how bad the saddles are, if they are quite raised then hollow coring will take a long time to get them down, you would be better koroing the saddles off at the end of the season and reseeding and topdressing them with the rest of the end of season renovations, it's not as expensive as you may think, Pm me if you want a price.
Andy
There not really bad I thought take cores out while its moist and roll down,they were worse 2 years ago due to rolling only between popping crease's but I have been rolling past the wicket ends which has reduced them, wouldn't have to go in front of popping crease really
Paul I know someone else who has minor saddles and is looking to do the same thing, he has loads of experience I will ask him how he's going to go about it.
26 Feb 2010 by vid
Hi Paul - the spacing on an autoturfman is great enough not to make much difference to the strength of the surface - you could probably risk doing it 2 or even 3 times over before and during preseason rolling - as soon as there is any sign of heave though you will need to stop - the drum action could cause the surface to break out which would not be good. The holes will allow lateral movement and the small size of the holes will ensure that they are nearly closed at the very worst. A small hole will not substantially alter the strength of he surface for play and will have the added benefit of helping the saddles to retain water by allowing the water into the surface quicker. My opinion is go for it I have been doing this to wickets for 20 years now and although it is a slow process the effect is noticeable after just a few years (I do it with a GA30 which has bigger hollow cores - 5/8" rather than1/2")
Saddles. A quaint element of English cricket. Why not rip the whole block level?
You don't see this in any other country. Very strange.
Yes Willard
That would be a good idea in March 
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Thanks guys at the moment I have good positive's and a negative and a demolition job, I will be trying it if it ever dries up, could start with a less important area first and see how we go.
Cheers
Would love to do it in March, but season doesn't finish until the 27th. So will have to do it in April.
16 grass blocks all ripped level. Not a saddle in sight. Never was. Never will be...
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No wonder you weren't at Harrogate Wayne if you were down under in January! Yes it does look distinctly like a Kiwi saddle...
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
David not so much the saddles but don't seem to keen on repairing ends during the season!
Willard
Just in case it escaped your attention, Paul is in the uk mate.Still just koro the whole square every year eh? Cost not an issue?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Wayne yes those bare ends are a bit scarey, per haps we can all learn from each other after all. It's a point Barry but then there is koroing and koroing, depends if it's a 'simple' fraise mow or more of a major renovation, what is your recipe willard?
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
Thanks for reminding me Barry its like summer up here today about 6 degrees and no rain yet.
Paul
We ve got it all down here today mate!
Got my triple back now ith reground units but no chance of using it
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Loamy
I think it depends how bad the ends are. Still wouldnt do it in March, Willard thinks the world stops at down under, no surprise there!
And cost is an issue.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Oh that's agreed Barry but the hollow coring exercise sounds interesting if paul's willing to give it a go, I can see how it would help but then again I'm not used to anything like this being done so late, vid has a good point when he says it is not the 'business' area that is affected but when you start this kind of operation you have tofollow the contours to an extent. Glad to hear your triple's back Barry though, you'll be bouncing around on that in no time.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
South Island didn't get a summer until February this year. The picture proves a point.
Koro, rip, laser level every year. Lovely stuff.
Loamy
Again I thing it depends on how far down the tracks repairing has been done. To do this in March would give you no time for the grass even to grow to a reasonable depth especially as it is on the real business end in terms of wear.
I am talking about a situation where all the ends needs doing.
Willard seems to exit in a world apart from normal club cricket budget restraints, lucky him.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Cricket clubs don't pay in NZ. Councils own all the grounds. They pick up the tab. Right way to go...
I wouldn't do any major work on a cricket block in the UK in Spring. Recovery time not guaranteed. Do it early Autumn. Be brave, go hard!
Willard
Thats why in New Zealand in Auckland, North Shore for example, you get 2 matches playing at the same time using the same outfield even a first grade match, perfect eh?
Yeah get the councils to run all thecricket grounds, another superb idea mate
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
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Glynn - you need to open your eyes. Yes the Councils provide much better grounds for clubs than anything I have seen in the UK, except county venues. Whats more, the clubs don't have to worry about paying for it. They can invest the money in coaches, administrators & grass roots.
All the equipment I use here is brand new. Most sheds I have seen in the UK, have contents that should be displayed on the antiques road show.
I have worked on grounds in the UK right up to Premier League football level, professional rugby & league and premier grade club cricket.
We can learn a lot from Australia & New Zealand. Their turf culture is excellent. Their general life style is a lot better too! You are a sad close minded little Englander.
AnthnyDqq - South Island very up & down weather wise. Extremes all the time.
Napier - very steady climate on East Coast of North Island. Great venue for a test match, very relaxed. Pitch a bit of a road though as a result, better suited to T20's & ODI's.
1 Mar 2010 by olaf
No sitting on the fence then, Jamie.
Are you coming back this summer or off to Thailand?
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
Think you have a point there willard we can learn a lot from Oz and NZ. Caught up with Megan Cushnahan (nzsti) at Palmerston North where she showed me Fitzherbert Park and arranged visits to Queen Elizabeth oval (Christchurch), Dunedin, Eden park / Colin Maiden park (Auckland). Excellent education and very interesting to see the different maintenance regimes in the southern hemisphere. Big differences to the UK.
Jamie,
This has gone way offsubject so I'll take it further off...
How are the grounds in NZ paid for? Is it on the rates/taxes so everyone shares the cost, or are the grounds charged out by the game?
Either way, if it's on general taxes, how do the non-sportspeople like paying for these grounds, and if it's paid for through playing, how do the fun cricketers like paying the same as the semi-pros?
It all sounds a little too good to be true - there must be a catch???
The ciderman rolls
1 Mar 2010 by vid
I would take a guess that taxes pay people in NZ to do the job and pay for materials, rather than pay for people to check on the staff who organise the staff that administer the staff that do the job and check up on the job and pay for people who draw up the bill of quantities and check on the safety of the materials that come from sources that have been checked by the staff who were trained by the staff who were sent away by the management who had been on a fact finding tour to New Zealand to see how the job was done. or put simply there are far too many levels of management and staffing before you get anywhere near doing the job.
Willard
My name is Barry.
It must be nice to live in your little world.Where did I criticise the lifestyle of down under? Nowhere thats where. I envy their lifestyle and love their attitude to lifestyle.
But the same system will never work in the UK. The whole attitude to sport in this country by any government is totally different to down under. As Vid says, UK culture is ever increasingly going down the paper shuffling route and that is what happens here when councils/government get more control, so it would never work here.
Its a shame you have to resort to personal insults but thats you way I suppose, each to his own, no problem.
You need to open your eyes to the real world, in the UK. We have to work within the confines of individual club budgets and it will always be thus.In any case the UK is skint and there will be even less money spent on Sports in the foreseeable future not more.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
very interesting reading looks like ive planted a time bomb here
Paul
Im so upset, no one has ever called me little before 
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Paul I have been working with the ECB pitch advisor today and I asked him about your problem, he says he has carried out similar procedures and if the saddles are only slight then if you hollow core now, from around 4 feet behind the crease to just behind the 5 foot mark then sweep all the cores up, then roll you will eventually get the saddles down but it may take 3 or 4 seasons, it's probably better if you can hollow tine earlier and let the soil relax a bit first.
If the saddles are quite extreme Paul, you could always take a turf cutter to them in the autumn. Cut off the appropriate amount and then scarify through the lot. This will tilth the ends and create a wonderful seed bed at the same time.
I think it is all about expectation.
Sport is very big socially in the Southern Hemisphere. It is also a chance to be noticed on the world stage. There is a lot of importance attached to it.
In the UK, a bit like home ownership, people are obbsessed about who owns what, not the quality of it.
Down under the facilities are provided & paid for by the council together with grants from the sport body (Cricket, Rugby, League or Football).
The clubs expect decent playing surfaces, and so do the sporting bodies. Of course it's paid for by taxes. Everything is, but unlike the UK, the money goes straight to the route.
The councils also hire an agronomist to make sure everything is being implemented. The sporting bodies continually keep an eye open too.
Clubs do not care about owning their own ground. That is a big part of it.
Of course councils in UK, willingly encourage clubs to do their own thing, it relieves them of all responsibilty. They can then waste your money on things they want...
2 major football clubs won't share a ground in the UK, what hope the rest?
If you can squeeze 2 games of cricket onto 1 ground so be it. Look at the outfield provided though. Sand carpet, slit drains & pop up irrigation. All bought & paid for.
Also, I like how international players play on the same grounds, and squeeze in a few club games each season too.
Michael Vaughan & Duncan Fletcher (English cricket's most successful duo) have both mentioned this in their books. I agree fully.
Look & learn from around the world. Don't fear it. You might like it!
I think Vid has painted the correct picture of how things are done back in Blighty!
Yes, I hope to stay in NZ. Asia second choice. Middle East third. Europe fourth. Blighty fifth!
Over & out.
Shame, would have liked to have met you
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Its worse than a shame Barry had got willard down for sorting my saddles out, its all good banter.
Yeah , if you had a a spare 2k lying about, Willard could have got the council in for you to do a tip top job
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
I don't know about everypone else but I find it amazing how they organise things down under. I'm sure there must be some good councils. mine to be fair ain't bad but they qute simply ain't got the budget to do what they're told needs doing - not their fault. I like the sfact that they do listen - as do the contractors they employ - but their hands are tied.
I see no way to change it in the short/medium term - perhaps someone could come up with some ideas ?
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Bring on the islamic revolution....... it may actually be better than where this shower of... is rapidly heading..
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
When I say Asia. I mean Asia Pacific. Not the extremist rag heads! Buddhism is more to my liking...
Don't get too fired up in all this nonsense. 2008 season, I had a lad over from NZ as my assistant, best groundsman I have met, destined for higher places - if the family farm doesn't call - whilst he loves his homeland (as we all should), he reports very differently to Jamie.
I dont think its quite the utopian situation as has been suggested down under. \ive played with plenty of Aussis and Kiwis and one of my sons spent a winter playing in Kiwi land.
But I think down under the powers to be have a much better attitude to sport generally than succesive bunches of w**kers who run the UK. Sport generally in schools here is a disgrace.
Its not a case, as Willard suggests of the bloke in the street opening his mind, its the Government and now cos of the S8it we are in financially now, there will be less investment not more
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
If he worked on a farm, he wouldn't have lived anywhere near Auckland City. Great facilities. Can't vouch for the rest, haven't worked outside Auckland...
Keep taking the happy pills,stay in denial, or just keep getting brainwashed by Pop Idol & Strictly Come Dancing. You gotta laugh...
It is the utopian situation Down Under. Otherwise I wouldn't want to stay here.
Everyone has a can do mentality, and the budget to cater for it...
NZ is pretty sweet as. And the Aussies didn't even enter into reccession. Fact.
Not that far from Auckland Jamie and I said it was the family farm, not that he worked on a farm.
Don't worry though, General Gordon Melchett & Captain Alistair Darling will sort it out. And if that fails David Tony Cameron-Blair will pick up the pieces. Sweet.
I must be dreaming then Vic?
There is way more money to be made in farming in NZ. Diary the best bet. He would be wasting his time in sports turf.
I don't do it for the money!
Jamie, the boy will end up on the farm but before that he will be a test match groundsman in NZ, he knows the job far better than any one else I have met, has drive, passion and hunger. What's more he is well mannered, polite and a pleasure to spend time with. Also his parents have taught him to go out and earn what he gets.
No one becomes a groundsman for the money.
The 3 Turf Managers at the 3 current test venues are all superb. That's a big call. How many NZ/Aussie turfies have you actually spoken to? The standard is pretty high.
Plus they manage multi use venues to also include football, league & rugby as well as international cricket...
Jamie, I don't doubt the quality or the entigrity of those managers. Having never visited, I haven't spoken to any but I have spoken and listened to most of the best in the UK. The lad is looking after sand based rugby fields to a high standard, in addition to first class cricket.
Until you have worked in both hemispheres, you are not in a position to make a judgement. I've worked 10 years in UK. 2.5 years in NZ. That qualifies me to offer an opinion.
Like I've said in previous posts, don't fear or disregard other methods used in different countries. They can turn out to be better than the ones you presently use.
Long gone are the days of the UK being a market leader or world beater. Now is the time to learn from others...
What exactly am I not entitled to make an opinion on, Jamie?
As I said earlier the best guy I have worked with is a Kiwi, I have no fear nor disregard for his methods - however, his boss is English - in fact I applaud them.
Perhaps you should write a book of your experiences, so we can all learn your secrets.
Perhaps you could list all of your places of work for us to marvel over.
3 Mar 2010 by trubs
I've been lucky enough to spend some time in NZ, and for me it is Utopia. Reminded me of my childhood in Cornwall in the Sixties; wide open spaces, everybody friendly and outside the Cities no need to lock your doors. Hope to go back this Winter to escape my 50th birthday celebrations!
Trubs
Never been to NZ but reckon I could live there no problem. One of my sons played there 2 winters ago and said that whilst it was a beautiful country, it was too quiet for him. He preferred Oz. But my clubbing and partying days are long gone.
I reckon I could live in Oz too but the climate and nasties (insects etc)there might put me off. NZ doesnt seem to have any of those problems. Wish I was 30 years younger mate and I would give it a crack, UK is knackered imo.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
I did write an article for Rob @ Pitchcare Oceania in 2008. I believe it did make it onto the UK website.
I hope to write another one regarding cricket block renovations. I didn't have time last year, the renovs were too full on, 16 blocks in total.
If I did have to return to the UK at some point, I would like to meet up with Iain James of Cranfield University & the ECB. He was very interested in the way things are done Down Under when he attended the NZ Turf Conference last year.
Would the old skool listen? I have my doubts.
There are no secrets. Just an open mind. And a massive amount of respect for Aussie/Kiwi sports turf industry.
Plus it ain't a bad part of the world to hang out...
Willard
You dont think differing climates can affect how processes will work in one part of the world but maybe not the same in another?
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Of course. NZ varies a lot from the bottom the South Island to the top of the North Island.
In Auckland, cool season grass never goes dormant.
However, that's not to say I wouldn't try some of their methods in the milder parts of the UK. Up to the end of October is generally pretty reasonable in the South East. Whatever work you do, you should have time & get a good strike before the weather turns.
A lot of problems in the UK are not all weather related. Poor quality clay, too light rollers, not severe enough renovs.
Other problems are historical. Why is a new pitch demanded for every 1st team game? You only need a new pitch for a 4 day game. The blocks are so bloody big, it's too expensive to do any work on them.
Most club blocks here have 5 pitches. One for each month of cricket. Use it for 4 Saturdays, plus a couple of Sundays, then bin it.
Rep & Test blocks normally have 8 pitches max. 4 for all the T20's & one dayers. 4 for 4/5 day games.
Once they are all done. Rip them to bits, relevel (laser if needed), add some new clay, seed & fert. Then cover, irrigate with pop ups. Germination 7 days. Get cover off. Away you go for next year.
Council pick up the bill. Rate payers generally happy. They generally belong to a club (cricket, football, league or rugby) or know someone who does.
Easy as, I'm off to bed!
Willard
Too simplistic mate. Most clubs in the uk, as Im sure you know, probably use the same track for Sat and Sun. There is far more club cricket played in the UK than there ever is in Oz or Kiwi. That is a fact, thats one reasons Kiwis and Aussies love coming over here to play.
And I still say, certainly in Oz anyway, the climatic conditions are so different, ie hotter and drier, that it is a different ball game.
And with all due respect, the demands on councils here of what the monies have to stretch to, are somewhat more than in NZ.
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Williard for Prime Minister !!!!!
I'm with you mate.
you know your stuff.
Chris
Yep that would be good, we could have the local councils running the country and everyone would want to run a koroing company
What do I do? I just cut the grass.
Willard for PM - no thanks!
Based on his recent comments, Willard would cause WWIII if elected to power. He wasn't very complimentary about certain ethnic groups.
I'm happy if he stays down under and keeps those comments to himself in future.
The ciderman rolls
Anyway guys if it stays pretty dry going to give the hollowtine a whirl next week if its a c**k up its got 6 weeks to recover.
I will be doing the same however know its going to take a few years by hollow coring.
5 Mar 2010 by brboro
I would leave them for this season and start hollow coring in late october. Repeat in december
brboro
Conditions were never right to allow that so will be doing in the next week also doing the upto 4ft so should not effect playability much.
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