Message Board - Natural Turf: Golf and sport-difference and similarities
2 Mar 2010 by Dave
Hi guys and girls,
If you have a few minutes spare?
In a few short sentences can you please give me your own thoughts on the differences and similarities between golf and other sports in terms of maintenance, machines and products.
Cheers,
Dave
2 Mar 2010 by Barry Pace
One is only in small parts flat and level, the rest should be..............
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
3 Mar 2010 by jlawrence
similarities - almost all sports are aiming for a free draining surface (with the obvious exceptions of tennis courts and cricket squares), maintenance practices are in essence the same - aeration, mowing, with the aim of maintaining a healthy grass plant.
Differences - over the years many golf clubs have become reliant of 'out of the bottle' cures rather than cultural practices.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
3 Mar 2010 by Steve63
Staff on golf courses have to put up with players on the surfaces whilst they are trying to maintain them, on our course that is from Dawn til dusk. Thats the biggest difference
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
3 Mar 2010 by Eddy21
JL
"over the years many golf clubs have become reliant of 'out of the bottle' cures rather than cultural practices."
That is a huge sweeping statement if ever I saw one!!
DE
Learning is there for every man
3 Mar 2010 by jlawrence Last edited 3 Mar 2010
That is true Eddy21 - it was a bit of a sweeping statement and likely not fully justified.
I think for sure there were many clubs who became reliant in the 'out of bottle' cure. That seems to be changing a lot now as they realise that's it's simply not sustainable in the long run and certainly not in the current financial climate.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
3 Mar 2010 by Eddy21
Hi JL
I thought that was the case in fairness.....I was only messing myself 
Back to the original question:
Similarities: As turf managers we both have to prepare surfaces that meet the high demands of clients, TV etc
Both have to prepare surfaces in sometimes less than ideal grass growing environments whether that be in a stadia environment or in difficult golf course locations,which may require alternative turfgrass management methods for successfull end results.
We are all managers of turf in general.,
Differences: Golf course management is usually carried out on often large sites with great diversity. One green/tee could cause us certain problems and require different management practices in comparison to the rest within a golf course.
Golf is now played year round (unless you work in France but that's another story!!) and unlike groundsmanship we don't often have close seasons allowing us to carry out large renovation projects to the surfaces.
I'd say in general everyday maintenance greenkeepers would use a wider range of turf maintenance equipment to maintain our courses as apposed to groundsmanship.
Greenkeepers dont tend to have multipurpose facilities like the lads in footy stadiums, who have to contend with rock concerts, corporate dinners, different sports etc on their pitches. I really take my hat off to the guys who have to do this kind of stuff in stadia environments, it must take great skill to get the pitches quickly back to the conditions they do after having such scheduled events.
I could go on but I think I have exceeded my few sentences at this stage
DE
Learning is there for every man
3 Mar 2010 by Dave
Thanks Dave!
4 Mar 2010 by chrismitchell
To take up John's statement about out of bottle cures. Groundsman use many times the amount of fertiliser per hectare per annum than the majority of golf courses. In the golf world we clear the surfaces of debris and dew daily as a cultural prevention of fungal attack.
It is relatively easy to scarify, spike, mow a flat surface but try that on severe undulations in tight areas whilst play continues!
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
4 Mar 2010 by Stephen Bowes
just a small observation..but I've never seen nets and goalposts on a golf course.
4 Mar 2010 by Eddy21 Last edited 4 Mar 2010
Good point Stephen.....
Also I have never seen bunkers, woodland, long ecology roughland, wetlands, ponds, paths, rivers and even SSSI's on a footy pitch, cricket ground or Rugby pitch either.
Although we are managers of turf, it is pretty different really isn't it?
DE
Learning is there for every man
4 Mar 2010 by Neil Dixon
i think "turf" is exactly the same wherever you go, it is the location of it, how it is managed and how it used that is the difference.
4 Mar 2010 by Mike Last edited 4 Mar 2010
Dave - we have wetlands, ponds and if you ask some of the locals, we also have footpaths, and much to my annoyance last week, a road on some of our pitches! Many of the local youths also have a penchant for using freshly prepared wicket's as makeshift tee boxes, and use some of the buildings as makeshift greens! Who says sports pitches can't be diverse 
Mike
4 Mar 2010 by jlawrence
I've seen nets and goal posts on a golf course - they were used as part of the practice (driving I assume) area.
Golf courses have a much greater diversity than most (all ?) other sports. They're courses managers need to have an insight into managing a lot more than just the actual playing surface imho. As far as the playing surface is concerned surely there isn't a massive difference (other than size) between a golf course and any other free draining surface.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
4 Mar 2010 by chrismitchell
There is a great difference in grass species and particular cultivars. A Rye that is cutt at 100mm on a rugby pitch would not fair so well on a golf tee mown at 10mm.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
4 Mar 2010 by Eddy21 Last edited 4 Mar 2010
Hells Bells Mike
It sounds like you work at one diverse facility in fairness!
I believe there are also a few golf clubs out there that are also multi purpose facilitiies some of which include: doubling up as motocross/ mountain bike circuits. Athletics pitches.....flagsticks used as javelins and tee markers used as the shotput, and when it snows...winter sports such as sledging can be seen!
I feel there is probably a large differance in grass species and cultivars used between the golf and groundsmanship side of things.
In golf, superintendents may manage species such as Creeping Bentgrass, Browntop bentgrass, Velvet Bentgrass and Fescue species as appose to the groundsmen who generally look for harder wearing species such as Ryegrass and Smoothed stalked meadows (though I do appreciate both of these can be used in golf mixtures also on tees, fairways and surrounds).
You could even look at species such as barcampsia and suppina that have been trialled and used in some stadium environments before now, these of which are not widely used in golf.
All the above require different types of management and inputs in order to achieve our desired goals and produce ideal surfaces that are expected.
Also look at how the guys have addressed shade problems in Stadia environments with the use of lighting rigs. When in golf this would be never implemented.....we would probably use tree clearance methods to enhance light quality in shaded conditions.
Sorry DS.....I think I have well and truely exceeded my word count at this stage!!
DE
Learning is there for every man
4 Mar 2010 by Dave
Actually it's been very interesting reading the comments, to me we all use similar equipment, similar products and carry out similar procedures in general across all the turf surfaces.
Yes there are variances and each and every venue has it's own specific requirements.
Golf suffers a degree of wear, but mostly in terms of footfall and then divots at the tees and on the fairways, but Golf is (weather depending) an all year round sport where renovation etc has to be carried out in season and quite often in play.
Other sports, with the exception of bowls suffer a much higher degree of wear from the players, usually in concentrated areas across the pitch/court/square. On the whole other sports have a break to allow a new/existing sward to develop/recover. The winter sports break, though isn't a break for the staff as they work through to bring on the surface as quickly as possible ready for the rigours of another 10 punishing months, at least half of which are through the winter months.
Keep posting your thoughts!
Cheers,
Dave
4 Mar 2010 by Eddy21
Just out of interest and going back to a point that Chris made about N inputs made in regards to higher annual N inputs made by groundsmen in comparison to golf.
How many units of N would be applied in a typical stadium environment per year let's say on a standard football league pitch? I appreciate they do get a bit of a tanning (so to speak) over the winter months.
Would I be right in saying that you cricket guys would use pretty low inputs also due to the nature of the soils you work with??
I really like the idea of the initial post Dave, as we do tend to get stuck in our own little worlds from time to time and it's nice to see how other industry proffesionals go about their day to day management and practices in different sports situations.
Cheers in advance
DE
Learning is there for every man
4 Mar 2010 by jlawrence
Eddy, I'd say that us cricket guys use low amounts of N more due to the way we want the grass to grow rather than the type of soils - the last thing we want is lots of top growth. Cricket (and to a certain extent tennis) isn't actually played on grass as such, it's played on clay soil bound together by roots.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
4 Mar 2010 by Neil Dixon
Chris, i was implying the same cultivar of Rye grass used on a golf tee in the SE is exactly the same as the same cultivar used on a golf tee in the NW, just location and management and possibly end results that are different.
I wasnt referring to different grass species or cultivars.
7 Mar 2010 by chrismitchell
To get back to Eddy21's point. Just how much N per hectare is applied to cricket and football grounds per annum? I have seen recomendations of 250 to 300 kg/h per annum for football pitches. My usage on a golf course is 60 kg/h for tees and 30 kg/h for greens. Vastly different with no P or K applied apart from might be in any top dressing or seaweed spray.
Chris
You will never see a statue in honour of a committee.
7 Mar 2010 by Dave
Chris, you're correct for winter sports on fast draining surfaces. As dwarf perennial ryes are used they require high inputs to help them grow quickly and recover after heavy wear. Traditional grass varieties used in golf don't suffer the acute wear, nor do they need the high inputs to survive.
Unfortunately these same grasses wouldn't survive too long on a football/rugby pitch or cricket square.
7 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011
Chris, I would expect to apply approx 160 to 200 Kg/h of N per annum to my cricket square.
7 Mar 2010 by Steve63
One other area where there can be a large difference is in salary, I do not recall anybody working as a volunteer on a golf course.
I have managed a golf course in the past, (now 8 years ago) and my salary has just caught up with what I was earning then, and I wasnt on a high salary compared to many HG's in the area.
My job is about to change again and I shall soon be the manager of sites that would equate to approx 3 course in size, 4 if we retain the golf course, staff in the region of 40, and liasing with sports pitch users of almost every outdoor sport on grass and artificial surfaces. My salary will still not compare to the local HG's in the area.
Regards
Steve
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
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