Message Board - Cricket: red thread, lack of growth and psr

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13 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Ok bit of a variation on a theme. Went down ground today(sat) was going to cut the square but decided not to cos after all the rain yesterday, its still a bit wet. My plan was to cut today, and start PSR Mon/tues. But I am concerned still about redthread and lack of growth. Fert I put on tues is now well washed in but I am concerned that if I start psr whilst growth isnt looking great, I may do more harm and kill some of the grass off.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

13 Mar 2010 by jontaylor

Gotta take the plunge sometime Barry.
I'm 150 miles or so north of you and have cut the square 3 times this year and today rolled for the second time.
My ground drains very well and so the conditions were again good, though i had to wait until pm to roll to allow areas seeded and topped up with laom to dry enough following yesterday's rain.
If you wait for perfection, you may never start. Trust your gut feeling but don't be too cautious.

The ciderman rolls

13 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Gut feeling is to wait. Too wet today, would have done 2 passes with mower and it would have been clogged up.Typical clay based subsoil Im afraid around here.
Theres always 2 schools of thought isnt there?
I am thinking that with the red thread restricting growth along with the lack of growth due to the weather, If I start psr now, it will kill the grass off where the red thread is at its worse. The feed i put on early in the week was fairly high in nitrogen and red thread can be a sign of lack of nitrogen, so give that a chance to work plus warmer weather forecast for a few days and a bit of sunshine.
But I could be worng!

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by olaf

Barry,
Whist full of admiration for your enthusiasm, you appear to misunderstand quite a few aspects of cricket facility management.
Yes, Red Thread is indicative of a lack of available Nitrogen but as the grass is not growing and temperatures are still low any fertiliser applied will have no effect, it may even do more harm in scorching the plant and then be lost through leaching and water run off before having chance to work.
The conditions for psr are spot on at the moment, start getting the square firmed up. Personally I never bother with starting light and moving up to heavier, if conditions are good get the big un on then leave to dry off for a day or three, then do it again. Never overdo psr higher temps will do the bulk of consolidation for me.
Don't concern yourself with damaging the grass, as long as you don't roll in frost no harm will be done, is worth drag brushing after rolling to stand grass up again though.
have you booked yourself on the IOG Foundation Course for Spring/Summer prep? Ok so it won't teach all you need to know in one day but it's an excellant grounding and will assist in bringing all the bits of knowledge and info so far gleaned into one package.

Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs

14 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

Barry another point with RT is believe it is the top growth which is effected so will grow out but grass could still look similar until grown out.

Get on & roll when conditions are right.

I will be getting the autoroller out this week after managing yesterday to towe her out after sinking.

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Olaf
As usual, many thanks for the advice but its not so much a case of misunderstanding as trying to learn.
One thing I have learned is that virtually no two cricket groundsman agree on a hardly anything!I could quote the exact opposite that you have suggested from this very site!But it works for you so thats all that matters isnt it?
If fert has no effect when temps are lowish then why is winter fert used?
It is very much a case of listening and doing what seems to work for you through trial and error.
I did the winter foundation course a couple of years ago but dont think much would be gleamed from doing the summer one now.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Pacman
Just by observation, it seems RT does restrict the sward quite bit. It looks like areas badly affected by RT will always be lacking in sward compared to areas not so affected.
In saying this, looking at the forecast, if I dont get any psr in shortly , it may not be possible for a whiles cos its going to get wet and cold again in a week or so.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

is all your square effected or are some pitches better than others,

if you are that concerned you could use better pitches initially & over seed other pitches if coverage is poor.

Bare in mind that once you cut down to match height you might not notice barer patches to a great extent( players may not )

Give chance for recovery when grass growth more likely

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Areas most affected go across line of play so quite a few affected not much chance of avoiding it.i have read on here that RT doesnt affect sward as such cos it affects top of leaf but from what can see, it has affected sward cos the areas with more RT are more bare.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by jlawrence

I've still plenty of red thread on my squares at the moment but will be starting psr on Monday - weather permitting. The RT will grow out as the temperatures increase.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

14 Mar 2010 by mario Last edited 14 Mar 2010

Remember Barry, that when pre-season rolling, you are taking the roller up one line and back on the same one then moving over to the next strip which will be the width of the roller you are using.
It's not a case of rolling the s*** out of the square just a pass up and down then moving over, so it's highly unlikely that damage will be done to the grass. In fact, there is a school of thought which says that brushing, cutting or rolling stimulates the grass plants into activity. Discuss?

In my case, to roll my 14 pitches with the 4ft Autoroller takes an hour and a half. Do you think I'm going to do a second pass over the square without a break? Not on your nelly!

Assuming conditions are ok, I'll do a pass before lunch and a second in the afternoon in a different direction to the morning session.

Today, conditions are ideal, unfortunately the Grand Prix and Rangers v Dundee United will be taking precedent!
Got to get the priorities sorted out, eh!

From the musical Annie: Tomorrow, tomorrow I'll be rolling tomorrow, the square won't know any different!!

I know no boundaries.

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Mario
I have a 3 foot roller currently so it takes a bit longer but I will bow to you guys knowledge. But what is the theory behind thinking that rolling stimulates grass plants? It seems to do the opposite in season.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by olaf

Barry,
A/W fert works because clay soils take a lot longer to cool in the winter than say sandy profiles, hence even after a number of frosts the soil is still warm. The reverse is true in spring when they take longer to warm up again. More prelevant this year after such a harsh winter. Thats the simple answer.
On relying on trial and error, well we all do to an extent but why reinvent the wheel?
On the questions you are constantly asking on here I still believe the foundation spring course will be of beneifit but then thats your call........old dog new tricks maybe?
As with most things in life and work a holisitic approach is needed, nothing works in isolation and an integrated management regime is the only way to do it, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Olaf
How does one acquire knowledge without asking?
I think attending a course that covers ferts etc would be of more use which I believe the intermediate does.
Not looking to reinvent the wheel, just interested in the varied answers one gets when you pose a question. The thing about all this is that, as I said before, there are many supposed differing answers to the same question. Often, experienced guys do not agree about the best way forward.Thats what makes it interesting!

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by Greavesie

Thanks for this thread. No pun intented. logged on to ask about the the RT and have had my questions answered (as always)

May I also thank all of you who have helped me over the last 3 years when i have asked for advise as last year we won the most improved ground award and this was only possible with your help.

Thanks again from Hunningham CC

I know its not straight! I've been drinking again.

14 Mar 2010 by Mike Last edited 14 Mar 2010

Barry - many experts can't agree on a one size fits all programme because there is no such thing. Every site is different, and has different reactions to different products and protocols. What all experts will agree on however, is that a groundsman must have an underpinning knowledge of plant physiology, soil mechanics, soil chemistry etc to enable the groundsman to get the very best out of their squares - the aim is to tie in the basic fundamentals of groundsmanship and the groundsmans knowledge of the local conditions. If one of these aspects is lacking, the groundsman will always struggle.

Asking questions is one thing, and I attribute much of my knowledge to the advice I have received from many on this site over the years, but that is in no way a substitute for proper education. Little tidbits of info here and there are a good thing, but to base one's knowledge on these little pointers could be very dangerous - what you must also consider is that whilst much of the information posted is very accurate, there is also a lot of 'fluff' posted, and without knowledge of the fundamentals, it can be difficult to pick out what is/isn't correct. For the small outlay to go through a series of programmed courses, it is well worth it imo.

Mike

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Mike
Thats what I just said in the previous post

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by Mike

Yes and no Barry - I stressed the importance of education. Much of the time, you will have to find your own answers which are based or your underpinning turfcare knowledge. Asking questions usually brings answers, but not understanding the 'why's ' and 'how's' - this is what education does give people. For example, you have suggested that the intermediate level which covers fertilisers would be of use to you - yep, that's great, but you can't just focus on the fertiliser. To make informed decisions you need to have a knowledge of what's going on in the soil, what effects your thatch management, aeration programmes, water management, grass species, soil type, microclimate etc will have on the effectiveness of the fertilisers, and this is why all training courses, be it iog, pitchcare, nvq's are structured the way they are, to get to the best out of a level 2 course, you should have an understanding of the principles of level 1 - you wouldn't go to secondary school without attending a junior school would you?

Mike

14 Mar 2010 by jlawrence Last edited 14 Mar 2010

Mike is correct - every single site is different.
My two grounds are literally next to each other - yet both need slightly differing maintenance regimes.


Barry, what I did was go back through every single cricket thread and article on this site - that can give you answers to the majority of 'normal' questions that everyone asks.
The other thing I did was to get on the IOG courses, though you still need to pick out the applications that are relevant to your own site - I'll likely do some of the pitchcare ones as well as they develop.
Spending time talking to other cricket guys at shows like Saltex, Harrogate is a good way to learn - not necessarily a cheap way though. Books, websites - there are loads out there will very good information on them about more 'general' turf maintenance. Going to things like IOG 'in action' days and STRI seminars (at cricket grounds) is also a good idea.
Yes, many of these things cost money - but that's life. Show me a hobby or job which you don't have to invest in, in order to get better at it.

I was lucky in that I had a mentor to point me in the right direction - even one which you only speak to via phone/email/IM would be worth their weight in gold to you.

ADDED:
Oh, I also asked a heck of a lot of questions on this site - fortunately there were plenty of people willing to answer even the most basic questions.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

14 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

I too am lucky that I have a mate with 20 years experience that I can ring up. But I like to hear all sides thats why this site is so good.
Anyway, it aint a sprint is it guys. I know Ive got a long way to go and if time and money allows, I will go on some more courses

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

14 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011

Just get the roller out and get rolling Barry. Good site or not, we all need a break some time.

14 Mar 2010 by Philmort

If you've done the Autumn / Winter course, the 'other half' of the year is in the Spring / Summer course and when else but now to get the official info rather than getting into the season and then finding out you've been doing it wrong? There is always something to glean otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions at all.

Proud to serve grassroots cricket

14 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

definately recommend the IOG foundation course, get to know hands on what processes you should be following, also get to meet other groundsman which is also useful, some of the best bits is having a chat with other groundies & lecturer.

15 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

If I ever stop asking questions then I would be worried.
This place is very good for speaking to other groundsman.
No chance of going on a spring summer this year anyway, too much to do for one thing.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

15 Mar 2010 by paul kelsey

Barry
You must have had buckets full more than us up here, rolled square in two directions last week and got a mate to roll in two directions yesterday while I was cutting outfield, the ends have dried that much there's tiny cracks on them.

15 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Paul
Im rolling this week after cutting today probably. Not so much the rain but the cold frosts have put me off cutting and rolling, been no growth especially witth the RT as well

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

15 Mar 2010 by Minormorris64

Started our S & P 32r first turn yesterday since mid-september let it run for 15 minutes then cut our outfield with the fully serviced ransomes triple 18, like having a new mower

What goes around, comes around

15 Mar 2010 by Steve63

Rolling will stimulate tillering of the grass, that is why farmers will roll pastures.

Tillering is the increase of basal shoots from the crown of the plant.

Increase therefore of the sward density.

Regards

Steve

Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......

15 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

4 hours psr today, jeez my back and arms are aching! Fingers crossed for our roller grant, power steering and a proper seat! Oh the luxury!

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

15 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket Last edited 15 Mar 2010

a lot of rolling barry did our square in one direction this morning before work about 1hr15m, try again tomorrow starting to look like a cricket square again.

15 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

another 4 tomorrow - turns like the QE2 - bit of seeding after so will roll that in as well

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

15 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011

Just cut out my first pratice match wicket and two net wickets for county practice Thursday. County friendly Thursday next week. Barry get rolling.

15 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

is that 4 directions remember the cranfield report the important drying stage between passes.

15 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

bath
I am effing rolling!!!
Cricket in March is bl00dy madness in UK
Pacman
The Cranfield people didnt have to worry about doing when it wasnt hissing down or covered in frost did they?

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

15 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011

4 passes in any one day supposed to be ok Pacman. Take some hours and a good set of headlights to get 4 passes of a square done in one day at 1/2 mile ph. Unless of course you only have a mini square.

15 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

wish I had the time gordon had an hr or so before work to get some in.

No rush here as first game not till mid april.

Don't think I could do 4 directions in a day would be 2 bored.

Lots of other jobs for me to be doing.

15 Mar 2010 by mario

In my opinion, for what it's worth (!), any more than two passes of the square in a day and ye need yer heid looked at! (Unless you have a mini square).
If there is one thing that will p*** you off, even before the season starts, it's sitting on, or worse still, walking with a roller.

We all do enough rolling during pitch preparation, don't we?

I know no boundaries.

15 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011

Only ten passes Kenny boy, thats what the book says anyway.

15 Mar 2010 by mario

Now.....back to the old argument. What constitutes A PASS?

I can't be a**** looking up what Cranfield says, but in my book. my tandem Autoroller going up one strip and coming back on the same strip consitutes four passes.

What say you, oh bearded one?

I know no boundaries.

15 Mar 2010 by Steve63

I made a couple of passes this weekend and got a couple of slaps, the missus wasn't impressed either.

I went over my square 4 times with a single drum pedestrian roller, so really that would be the same as your tandem there and back, though a little harder work.

Steve

Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......

15 Mar 2010 by Andy Matthews

Gonna start the psr tomorrow so the batteries for the MP3 player and the digital radio are on charge, oh yeh and the quilted overalls are also ready to keep me warm, get some music on the time flies by, have a go at pop master with Ken Bruce, allthough my scores of 20 plus are few and far between now they have made it harder.

15 Mar 2010 by trubs

Gonna be doing exactly the same Andy. MP3 charging as we speak. Need good noise-cancelling Headphones though, I recommend Sennheisers.

15 Mar 2010 by Grassman2011

Kenny, i know where you are coming from but i believe once up and once back on the same strip = two passes.

15 Mar 2010 by jontaylor

Sennheisers inside ear defenders.

The ciderman rolls

15 Mar 2010 by trubs

Inside a Tea cosy.

15 Mar 2010 by Mal

Nah.............Get a bobble hat there just the thing

Geography is everywhere

15 Mar 2010 by trubs

Think I'll get a green one, the brown one is obviously for funerals.

16 Mar 2010 by andy dixon

We all seem to have the red-thread problem this year and i really don't know why but i would point out that red thread can also be excacerbated by excess N during the season. Didn't even have any Fusarium all winter. Growth seems to be starting late but we did have a late start to autumn. Lucky for me as I stripped the top off last year and started again! 7 and half tonnes of Kaloam, 300kg of seed and a whole new start! Was crapping myself about germination as i didn't get done til mid october (did it alone) but no problem. I just finished grooming today with the thatch control reel, power brushing tomorrow then on my last cut (light roll) at 15mm (down to 18 so far) with the 36" heavy mower tomorrow then going for a low N, high Iron feed before we get rain Wednesday night, Thursday and Friday. Not planning on adding a high N fert until about 10 days after as weather dictates. If the plant isn't growing, it won't use it. Then again, if you catch it right and it washes through the profile as the plant starts, it will chase the nutrients down giving a deeper rooting system. Planning on starting heavy rolling on Sunday. Wish my square didn't have 23 wickets! Reckon my psr is going to take 40 hrs. Olaf, tell your guys if they want a decent square in season, go and play football until April! Which county you looking after by the way? I may have your guys down here this year and could have a word! Anyway, that's my opinion.

16 Mar 2010 by EDDIE G

Barry. I was told yesterday that there was no money in the pot for machinery. Might be worth checking.

16 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

This is Sport England not ECB

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

16 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

And they ve got money, I give em 3 quid every week for a start!

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

16 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

This time next year, ECB wont have money for anything in grassroots when they are forced to put the cricket on BBC

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

16 Mar 2010 by jlawrence

Mario, there is a link on the cranfield pages to a youtube vid which explains what they refer to as a pass - basically a 2 drum roller going over the square in one direction is one pass. Down and back on the same line is 2 passes.

I got one pass on all my squares yesterday (at quite a quick pace) will slow it down today. Absolutely no bloody way I'll be doing more than 2 passes. 3 squares - 24 tracks - takes me the best part of 3 hours to do one pass over the lot. To do more than 2 in a day is next to impossible.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

16 Mar 2010 by Minormorris64

jl, I have always understood and recorded, that with my S & P 32r that a pass is as you describe above.

ie. Down and back on the same line is 2 passes.

What goes around, comes around

16 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

Cut square and rolled for another 2 hours today, my bum is aching!But a beautiful day down here.
Cant wait for my new roller!!!

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

16 Mar 2010 by mario

Square still too wet but hopefully tomorrow!

I know no boundaries.

19 Mar 2010 by mario

No matter how long you've done the job there is always room to learn.

On some thread or another one poster made mention of overseeding any bare areas prior to pre-season rolling.

I thought I'd try it and ran the Variseeder over the square prior to rolling. The majority of the indentations were squeezed over encapsulating the seed.

The old dog has learnt a new trick! Thanks whoever said it.

I know no boundaries.

19 Mar 2010 by Sunlover

What does a Variseeder do Mario? I've never seen or heard of one. Is it a machine that gives better chance of germination? If so, I'm going on Ebay now!!

World Heavyweight Champ

20 Mar 2010 by pacman75cricket

Its a seeder has small spiked roller that create the indentaion for the seed & then drops the seed from conveyor belt into the indentation created. I have one but just use to create indentation before seeding.

20 Mar 2010 by mario

Here is a photo of the underside of the Variseeder.

I know no boundaries.

20 Mar 2010 by mario

.........and the sort of indentations that it produces.

I know no boundaries.

20 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

I am green with envy. I am getting a hand seed slotter which I will have to use for the whole wicket. I have a spiker reel for my sisis pedestrian scarifier but it is crap, the wheels flatten out most of the holes it makes

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

20 Mar 2010 by olaf

Don't bother with the seed slotter, on clay soils it'll just clog up.
look around for a 2nd hand sarrell or variseeder (one of the best tools ever invented by the way). But if you aint got a compac tractor no good at all.
Better than the slotter is to bang a load of 4" nails through a 1 foot square length of scaffold board, fit a handle and hey presto your very own seeding hole machine. Failing that saw off the prongs of a garden rake till only four are left or dib with a border fork.
Am I glad I got a variseeder.........yep.
Oh and Mario, I claim full credit for the variseeder idea half way through pre season rolling, I'm so clever it frightens me sometimes.
Modest as well.

Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs

20 Mar 2010 by barry glynn

I havent got a tractor. Doesnt it depend on how wet the clay is re the clogging up? Anyway, thats yet another option Olaf thanks.

The sisis reel was a waste cos its obvious I suppose that the hole make has to be behind the wheels, not in front of it.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

20 Mar 2010 by jlawrence

I use a sarrell then brush seed into the holes - would like a variseeder but can't justify the additional cost atm.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

20 Mar 2010 by mario

Yes Olaf, I know how you feel.
I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night not quite sure how to handle my own success the following day!!

Then the alarm clock goes off and I realise that it has all been a baaaad dream!

I know no boundaries.

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