I am not a Groundsman but when is somebody going to wake up at the National Stadium and admit that relaying the pitch over and over again is not the problem.
When I see the quality of the pitch that Chris Hague manages to produce at Denmarks National football stadium it is like chalk and cheese. Chris has winter conditions that London cannot imagine and also rock concerts,speedway etc and still manages to produce a perfect pitch which I believe has been changed only once in the last 2 seasons.
When you read below that the wembley chief is blaming the set up of the pitch as the problem during the semi-final of the FA Cup it is laughable.
I only hope that somebody sorts out what is becoming an embarrasment in the world of football.
Ian
WEMBLEY CHIEFS REVIEW PITCH OPTIONS
Posted 13/04/10 13:32EmailPrintSave
FA Cup 09/10. Click here to bet.
Wembley chiefs have admitted that there was justification for the criticism of the standard of the pitch for the FA Cup semi-finals and are reviewing options to improve the surface.
There was widespread criticism following the semi-finals and Wembley say it is "probable" the pitch will be replaced before the final.
A Wembley Stadium spokesperson said in a statement: "We accept and understand the frustrations around the standard of the pitch at Wembley for last weekend's FA Cup semi-finals.
"The problems faced on Saturday were due to the way the surface was prepared and the measures used overnight were unable to resolve the situation sufficiently for the match on Sunday."
Wembley say football is the top priority but they need to replace the pitch several times a year to hold other events.
A decision on whether to replace the pitch again - this one has only been down for four weeks - will be made after the weekend.
The spokesperson added: "There is a unique challenge with the surface at Wembley and we are working with expert pitch consultants to get it right.
"Wembley Stadium is a multi-purpose venue and we have to hold other events as part of the business plan, which means regular pitch replacements each year.
"Football is the number one priority and we understand we have to find a way to deliver and sustain a consistent quality pitch and replicate the successful formula that we developed in the second half of last year.
"We are currently reviewing all options to provide the best surface for the busy period going forward, including a probable pitch replacement. We will make this decision after the weekend."
Arsene Wenger has joined Tottenham manager Harry Redknapp in criticising the state of the Wembley pitch by claiming it is "not acceptable" for a country bidding for the 2018 World Cup.
The Arsenal manager is a big supporter of England's bid but has been dismayed to see the criticism which saw the Wembley pitch labelled a "disgrace" by Redknapp following the FA Cup semi-final on Sunday.
Wenger said: "I saw that they have relayed it 10 times. It looks like relaying the pitch is not the problem. They have to go deeper into the problem.
"I support personally the campaign for England for the World Cup in 2018. I try to be active on it so I can't imagine that England goes for the bid for the World Cup with a bad pitch. They have to sort out the problem. They have to sort it out.
"I don't know if it would harm England's campaign, I just want to feel comfortable that England have the most renowned football stadium in the world. To have a bad pitch is not acceptable.
"I'm confident that the confederation will sort it out but it cannot remain that everybody complains about the pitch after the game. It's not good enough.
"It is a football country. It is the best league in the world and so what we want to show to the rest of the world is that we have the best pitches in the world."
13 Apr 2010 by garyr
Chris Hague is my HERO!
I have heard two Portsmouth players in recent days state that they didnt have a problem with the pitch as they had the correct footwear, the players all warm up on the pitch to get a feel for it so you would think they would all know what it is like and wear the right footwear.
The majority of criticism has been from managers, I have yet to see any of these managers go out there and play on it, so their 'expert' opinion shouldnt be taken too seriously, the majority of criticism since Wembley reopened has been from teams who have lost there.
Players when Wembley first reopened complained the pitch wasnt being watered for games and it was too dry, now its been watered for games recently they are still moaning.
There are a lot of people coming out in the media stating the problems about the pitch, its construction etc, however how many of these people have actually been on the pitch recently, if at all and like the rest of us are only hearing things by wrd of mouth or what is written or spoken about in the press (some wrongly and some rightly I'm sure) ? The opinions of 'hard underneath' and lets have an independant inquiry' are all well and good, but if all this is addressed and taken on board and people playing on it still have the same problems and opinions afterwards then the people saying a lot at the moment will look more than a little silly.
A lot of what I am reading seems to surround the pitch being hard 'underneath'-I find this a bizarre comment for people to make as I am sure it would have been well cultivated before the new pitch was laid.
I am not saying Wembley is right myself, equally I am not saying it is wrong either. The truth is I dont know and nor do I care for that matter as I dont work there and it doesnt concern me, and I am certain the vast majority (if not all) of those throwing their opinions about dont know either and am getting a bit bored of hearing about it all the time, and I think the message board on here reflects the same opinion as the comments each time the pitch is criticised are getting less and less each time.
Haven't these Prima Donna players heard of longer studs ? they all wear these fancy bladed boots which are just hype and spin, and no use to anybody; can you remember when Beckham slipped taking a penalty in a England away match?
The Portsmouth player on TV was laughing about all this, and I bet Steve Welsh is as well.
Sorry for contributing to another Wembley thread but it is our National football stadium.
DS came over very well on Sky Sports this evening.
13 Apr 2010 by vid
You are quite right Leeboy, I was asked by the BBC to give my opinion but declined as I know naff all about Wembley and I didnt see any point in upsetting people who may otherwise pay for my services.
I would say however that if the present pitch is so bad that it needs replacing who the hell was checking the quality in the first place. If the quality is ok what possible good would replacing it at this late stage be. I would have thought that leaving it to strengthen up a bit more especially in the warming weather would be by far the most sensible thing to do. Only the FA could come up with doing the one thing that everyone seemingly agrees on - freshly replaced pitches dont play well!!!
14 Apr 2010 by Kelvin Lockwood
Leeboy why have you written a load of nonsense and then concluded... "The truth is I dont know and nor do I care for that matter as I dont work there and it doesnt concern me"
14 Apr 2010 by Leeboy Last edited 14 Apr 2010
Because I am not spouting off about something I know nothing about and talking about it based on assumptions and hearsay and trying to say how to put it right. The first 5 shrt paragraphs are pretty self explanatory and hardly nonsense as they are facts, however as with my comments that is my opinion and you are entitled to yours, and I am sure someone will agree with your comments the same as someone has agreed with mine.
vid wrote "I was asked by the BBC to give my opinion"
I wish they'd bloody asked me!
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
When will these overpaid premadonnas realize that they are playing on a natural surface which will vary from day to day, pitch to pitch, a lot is dependant on the weather, which we all know has not been very good to grass this year. Every little mistake they make is somebody else's fault. They are paid to do a job which is to stay on their feet and play football. When it is pissing it down and we have to work outside we all make sure we have the right equipment on to keep us dry, ie good boots and a waterproof jacket. if we dont we get wet feet and a wet shirt, i dont hear anybody on this site moaning that they have wet feet, no because we wear the correct footwear for the occasion.
Why is it that the likes of Mr Ferguson and others always find fault when things dont go their way. Take last Sunday at Ewood, he said after the game, " there was a bobble" no the idiot kicked the ball at the Goalkeeper who saved it.
Lee if you missed mowing a 3ft strip down the middle of the pitch, would you be in a job next week. Well why dont these overpaid people who run around for 2 to 3 hours a week get b****ked for making mistakes.
If they all want to play on the most perfect pitch week in, put all the turf groundsmen out of a job and relay all the pitches with synthetic turf, then nobody can complain as to the state of the grass.
If the pitch is safe to play on (will be interested to see after saturday when they play rugby) tell them to get on with it and stop moaning, it is after all grass which grows out of the ground.
Sorry, i dont know anything about football pitches in Stadiums, i do my best looking after 5 rugby pitches in the North West, but you see variations of pitches all over the world, i do think we as a country have some of the finest, which is a credit to you guys who look after them.
I see what you are saying and agree to a point Phil.
The main issue to my mind is simply this.................Wembley SHOULD be the best playing surface in the country and it isn't.
Players SHOULD expect to be provided with the best surface at the home of football and they are not.
Money SHOULD be no object but it is.
The attitude of those at the top of the FA/Wembley plc management made clear their valuation of the surface by allowing its construction without involving the person tasked with maintaining it, and offering the Grounds Manager an offensively low salary for a no-win position.
It's a change of attitude as much as a change of turf that is required.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
14 Apr 2010 by Sumomosr Last edited 14 Apr 2010
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/groundsmens-group-invited-to-wembley-pitch-meeting.html
and
http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/wembley-to-get-a-new-pitch-every-four-months-at-125-000-each.html
GOGGA
Wembley should be the best surface in the country to play on .
It might get away with being poor in comparison to other premiership pitches , if it wasn't costing goals . I don't see players slipping about on other pitches in league games and the pitch level camera views don't look good .
I believe the groundsman's representatives that have appeared on the media in the last few days , have done a great job in supporting our industry, well done .
15 Apr 2010 by Richard Cutler Last edited 15 Apr 2010
How anyone on this message board can deny there is a problem with the pitch is beyond me. Some have written of "primadonna players" others of a pitch that was too dry or wet and "moaning" managers. Come on folks, we can all see from just looking on tv that the pitch plays poorly. That much is evident from the flow and passing in the games and from the catalog of injuries suffered. Citing losing players comments as sour grapes makes the professional groundsmen on here seem like idiots. The pitch IS bad, everyone can see that, lets not shy away from this simple fact. Denying it just makes us seem like fools.
Well the FA are meeting with the IOG on Monday to discuss the pitch!
Maybe that will help things
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
15 Apr 2010 by johnr
http://www.iog.org/latest_news_and_media/latest_news/talksport_interview
I can't remember the last football match I watched where at least one player didn't slip around - I always assume it's because they can't choose the correct studs to wear.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
I am an idiot, I admit it, afterall a losing player or manager has never blamed a pitch rather than admit something was their own fault, how stupid I have been.
16 Apr 2010 by Kelvin Lockwood
I didn't see anyone slip at White Hart Lane on Wednesday and the pitch was well watered
Lee.
Straight question and I know you are a straight talker.
Would you be happy if the surface at your stadium was the same as it is currently at Wembley?
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
16 Apr 2010 by Richard Cutler Last edited 16 Apr 2010
Leeboy,
Nice reply, I for one don't agree with what they say about sarcasm.
I said "seem like idiots". I certainly wouldn't suggest you were an idiot. How would I know if you were or not?
Just because pitches have been unjustly blamed for defeats in the past does not mean that all complaints of the pitch by losing players/managers is by definition unfounded. To suggest so would be idiotic, surely you would agree? To refute the claims of all the people who say the pitch is bad makes your judgment seem off in this instance. Your argument implies that the pitch is fine, no problem just a case of moaning losers. Do you actually believe that?
If groundsmen say that the pitch is actually fine and not at all a problem then that invites others to question our collective credibility as professionals.
Peter,
I would not be happy at the criticism of any pitch I worked on by people unaware of the facts behind it,we have had it before and people arent interested in the reasons behind any fault, just sensationalising. We have had concerts on our pitch which have had very damaging effects to it, however our construction is not the same as Wembley, nor does it have the countless other uses including rugby, motorsport, NFL and apparent countless corporate use no one ever sees, which is why I havent said whether Wembley is good or bad on this or any other thread as I dont know the facts behind its use exactly, and nor will I as I am not in a position to have seen it first hand. That said, its a thankless task just given the size of the stadium alone without even starting to look at what use they have to start with.
The question could be turned around and asked 'Lee, your pitch looks half decent this season doesnt it?'. My response to that would be that it does look half decent but underneath it is riddled with black layer, rooting around 25mm at best and very bad compaction which is why it is getting dug up this summer and replaced with a new one. Just by looking at a pitch on tv doesnt always give the full story does it?
Not really a straight answer, more one suited to last nights leadership debate I think!
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What opposition players/managers think of the pitch doesnt bother me, yes like everyone you dont like to hear criticism of the pitch you look after, but as long as our players and our manager are happy thats all that matters, after all if they do well then we do well and everyones happy. As for tomorrow a draw I think, but I wont turn down three points if they get sent ur way either!
I haven't seen the wembley pitch first hand nor am I aware of the myriad of reasons for the difficulties encountered but it is perfectly clear to me that the pitch is unsuitable for quality football to be played and it has been unsuitable since it opened. Unfit for purpose is a phrase that comes to mind. Anyone who says it aint so is a fool. You don't need to understand the reasons why something is bad to know that it is bad. I watched a bad film last night, not sure if it was the acting, direction, script, casting or production that was at fault, maybe it was a combination of all of them, the fact is I don't care what was causing it to be bad it just was. Same as the pitch at the national stadium.
If it was to be a film, what sort of film would wembley be? ;-)
the truth will out!
A silent movie as a reflection of the lack of communication?
Possibly a Spaghetti Western or Keystone Cops?
GOGGA
Well to be honest the fa and wembley are wasting another pot of money to dig up and relay another new pitch. to me why not get it right first time and you dont have this trouble. i know the funding for stadium etc is from a ltd company that need to stage as many events as possible to make the money but hey it was built for football so thats what its primary job should be........
also i saw that the EBC have given money to some leagues in cricket to help with pitch maintenance etc so why havent the Fa done this to help with grass roots football. We play on a recreation ground owned by the council but we are charged £90 a yr rent but when i asked what do we have done at the end of season for renovations they said you get it cut most weeks and thats all the council have done for the past 10+ yrs which in my opinion is bad. half of them havent been down there to look at the bit divots and mole and rabbit holes i have to fill in week after week. i m trying to argue my case of we aint going to pay £90 a yr if nothing but grass cutting is going to be done.
£90 a year, you're lucky, we pay £42.50 a GAME for our footy pitch.
What goes around, comes around
19 Apr 2010 by A J Last edited 19 Apr 2010
That must be at wembley then? No wonder the pitch is nackerd he, he....
Grow in grace...........
wow Minormorris64 thats stupid we also have to pay £19 a game for use of changing rooms as well but not as much as you.
my point was if its a council pitch or rec with pitch on they should do more to look after it than just cutting it.
19 Apr 2010 by Kelvin Lockwood
I understand that many county cricket boards own a pool of machinery that cricket clubs can access for renovations.
There is also the national Natwest Cricketforce scheme that has been going for a number of years.
Why don't we have the equivalent for football?
19 Apr 2010 by Greenfingers Last edited 19 Apr 2010
Wembley to be relaid up to 7 times a year until 2023, I make that roughly 7x13x90K, about 10 million quid including inflation. Peanuts:)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8616969.stm
well Kelvin i totally agree we this year have been doing things ourselves but are very limited as i ve been using my own money and cant afford to hire contractors or equipment to do the renovations so has to be very basic but would help if the fa or local fa's gave each club money towards machinery or had equipment clubs without machines could use
£90 a year. I'm amazed that you even get it cut for that tiny amount.
£19 a week would just about pay for the changing rooms - water, electricity, cleaning - and only just at that.
For the amount you're paying there is no way any council could afford renovations.
The only time I've heard of a council charging such a small amount is when they have an arrangement with the club where the club carries out maintenance and renovation of the pitch.
David, getting it right first time wouldn't help Wembley in any way shape or form. It's a multi use stadium and as such will need relays regardless of how it played.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
well to be honest its been like this for past 15+ yrs at our club and cricket gets preferance over changing rooms etc and its basically a rec where they said we could have a pitch and we had to pay for goals ourselves, line marking paint, etc etc but guy gets £1,200 a yr to cut the pitch and the rest of the rec.
all i m asking is for either council or rec committee to help with costs for renovations or to not charge us at all, if the club had the money like the cricket club do or did then we wouldnt pay a fee as it would of been owned by us but we just dont have the money to buy it really.
this nonsense is taken from the STRI homepage
"Wembley National Stadium
Richard led the team that replaced the infamous Wembley pitch following high level criticism last year. Together with fellow consultant, Andy Cole, Richard has assisted in turning the fortunes of the Wembley pitch full circle to being one of the best in the world. "
8 May 2010 by Parken
Good morning all
Interesting claim, they have sold themselves short it’s the best 11 pitches
Why have the STRI not taken public responsibility for the issues in Wembley rather than allow the press to print pictures of the grounds team, do they only want the glory.
I have enjoyed a good relationship with the STRI in previous years and have huge respect for the likes of Andy Newell, Jeff Peris among others but I am surprised and disappointed on hearing some of the recent comments aimed at some of our industries top ground peoples, coming from the STRI.
Anyway I see Richard Hayden is talking regarding multi use stadia this summer. I know you read pitchcare Richard as you wrote the piece on Croke Park recently (I will post the original article titled Parken in the coming weeks), therefore ask the organisers if I can slot in to talk about multi use either before or after your presentation
Then for the good of the industry and football we may see some answers regarding Wembley
your all welcome to come and listen and ask questions
Enjoy the weekend
Chris
wow Minormorris64 thats stupid we also have to pay £19 a game for use of changing rooms as well but not as much as you.
my point was if its a council pitch or rec with pitch on they should do more to look after it than just cutting it.
3 weeks ago by Kelvin Lockwood
Sorry didn't make it clear, that does include changing rooms.
But on the other side of the coin our Cricket Club at its ground pays nothing (peppercorn rent of £10 a year)
What goes around, comes around
Our Club have had a great experience with our local council. We approached them 2 years ago with a proposal to take over a 16 acre site in our town and develop 9 pitches as home to our club. After further discussions and planning applications etc.. we were awarded a 25 year peppercorn lease. From there we have maintained the pitches but they have now awarded us substantial grants to improve drainage and will sand slit the whole site and install additional land drainage.
well to be fair to our council they are helping with some costs for eg line marking paint, grass seed, top soil, and letting us off the rent which is not a lot but all helps. i was trying to get them to pay for some maintence at end of season which was rejected as its more of a rec than football pitch, but said if i wanted to make it better than by all means i can through own money or though some funding elsewhere.
as i got started on goal mouths levelling off and reseeding, also where the lines were burnt in (not by myself) levelling and reseeding and have started to see plenty of growth and its getting better i m having a huge battle with thefluffy rabbits that decide to dig holes so am having to refill theses every day at the minute but am getting some germination sheets to cover the filled holes, but have afeeling they will just attack another area lol.
but i m loving the enjoyment i get out of doing it and come start of season hope we have a good standard of pitch in our league if not better
Lord Treisman has made a statement about Wembley, taken from the BBC sport web site, I hope it doesn't come back to bite him.
"The Football Association has promised that Wembley will never again suffer from a poor playing surface.
Wembley is the centrepiece for England's 2018 World Cup bid but the quality of the pitch was criticised following the FA Cup semi-finals.
"We shouldn't have let this happen and we will have an exceptional pitch," said FA chairman Lord Triesman ahead of Saturday's FA Cup final.
"We should never let the lesson slip and we won't."
11 May 2010 by Al Last edited 11 May 2010
Interesting to read the comments above & like many I can only form an opinion as an observer.
One thing is for sure the media loves a negative angle for a story & the Wembley management are certaibly giving them ample material.
What I would say is that the use of the stadium can't be a unique situation nor a unique structure. Or maybe I'm overlooking something. For sure local conditions prevail & any grounds professional, worth his salt, will accommodate accordingly.
The advancement of turf management & financial expectations have placed extra demands on natural turf surfaces & those charged with maintaining them. You only have to look at football/rugby use to see that.
Wembley, however, seems to have a plethora of sporting events/concerts which are certainly compounding and already difficult situation.
Whichever way you want to pass judgement & whatever your opinion the industry, in conjunction with Wembley management, should be re-doubling their efforts to address the situation & not continue to look for scapegoats - it's only feeding the negative media & public perception.
Stating the obvious - but actions speak louder than words & perhaps throwing millions at it isn't the answer that everyone seems to think it is - although a sensible budget certainly helps!
Now Lord Treisman is saying that the pitch has slipped backwards, Gord help us.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/8681176.stm
Not just moaning losers and know nothing managers are complaining about the pitch!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8684899.stm
Following revelations in todays Mail on Sunday, maybe Lord Treisman won't be around to see a great Wembley pitch.
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