Hi all,
I am in the process of obtain Ethosat 500, which is a ethofumesate based product which now has a "on lable" applications for turf (as opposed to Bayers Nortron Flo which does not have a on lable turf use).
The product is reported to have some effect on controlling Poa as when used as both a pre- and post-emergence application (see http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/use-of-ethofumesate-to-control-annual-meadow-grass.html).
I would like to treat my tennis court before and after my end of season renovations. There is plenty of information on the net about its use on US golf courses. However, details about timing are not readily applicable to the UK.
Has anyone any experience using this chemical in the UK, partilularly with reference to timing and application rates?
Phil
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Must be one hell of a lot of poa has 2, if that is all seed just from brushing.
1 Aug 2010 by mackay
I used ethofumisate for two years on a square and virtually erradicated the poa. The benefit of it is that it is non disruptive and also cheap. You do need to ensure that the sward is not under too much stress and be prepared for it to knock you germination rates a little. Spray it on prior to rennovations.
Glad to see a label approved for turf use. If this is the case then I will be using it myself during this years renovations.
Thanks mackay,
What rates did you use? The Ethosat 500 says maximim use is 2Ltr/Hectre. How long before and after renovations did you apply?
Phil
Hi
I recieved the following reply to the same question posted on the Oceania site.
1 "Works best when is cold below 16 degrees. Very good pre emergence, not the greatest post emergence. Have used it at 4l/ha and 8l/ha."
2 "I used to use it as purely a pre-emergent one spray at 1 l/ha then oversow the next day (rye). Worked pretty good, not as good as others as a post-emergent. Found that even up to 14 l/ha didn't provide good enough post emergent control, i have heard of similar results in the US where they have to use huge rates for minimal results. In my experience i would only use it when renovating and oversowing. I also found if i sprayed without oversowing it would lead to unacceptable thinning particularly during Autumn."
3 "we have had 100% success with 4l pre emerg. I have also found it doesn't work very well on sand based areas.
Did some post emerg 3 weeks ago, will post photos, poa is yellow but I dont think ti will die."
4 "One application will not give great post-emergent control. A monthly programme will give good results. At low rates (1 litre) probably need 4 monthly applications. At higher rates (3-4 litres) 2 or 3 applications might be enough."
Phil
5 Aug 2010 by vid Last edited 5 Aug 2010
Controlling AMG chemically will always have a side effect on the way the rest of the grasses behave and it is normally expensive. I understand your frustration phillipfish as everyone wants the best for their sports turf especially when it is a personal possession.
I ask this question however - why is the poa so dominant? There is always a reason for it. It is almost certainly because you are promoting its growth habit over the preferred grasses. This can be any one or combination of things from a long list, as I am sure you are already aware. Look to develop the rooting capabilities of your favoured grasses and they will outperform the poa and push it out. In particular do not let the turf become waterlogged, dont overfeed, dont overwater, aerate regularly and deeply in winter have the soil tested to see what is deficient/in excess. Pay more attention to the health of the soil rather than the grassplant and you are more likely to succeed in your quest for perfection
Vid.
In theory your aims and methods are admirable, but in practice Poa Annua is far too prolific and opportunistic to be controlled purely by cultural means.
This especially the case in a rye sward where the spaces between the grass plants are by the very nature of rye numerous and large.
Poa will germinate and establish below any height of cut on a ryegrass sward and establish itself over time.
Of course the grass looks good. The sun is shining.
6 Aug 2010 by vid
I dont disagree entirely Peter, but as you know from my previous posts I hate the reaching for the chemical cabinet as a solution to this, Surely the answer here is either to produce ryegrasses that are denser still and fill these spaces or there is a possibility here that we should not be producing pure rye swards where poa is a potential problem and go back to adding other species to fill these spaces. Poa is an opportunist and has been greatly enhanced by modern practices. By taking a deep breath and combining good soil fundementals with good grass management we should be able to achieve better than the past rather than the current status quo which seems to be worse.
I believe this overabundance of Poa to be down to our delight in destroying the soil microbiology with modern chemicals and fertilisers. How many people are aware that the nitrogen fixing ability of the soil is all but destroyed by the addition of nitrogenous compounds. So we destroy these beneficial bugs and then have to apply more artificial fertiliser to compensate, this in turn produces disease which requires more chemicals which stresses the grass that then needs stimulants and regulators to grow at the rate we require - why are we so sure that we know better than nature how to grow grass, why do we work so hard destroying nature - is that good practise?
6 Aug 2010 by has 2 mow Last edited 6 Aug 2010
Vid
I work on bowls greens only, and i find the best thing for poa removal, if we are changing grass species from 100 % poa to say fescue( depending on site), i will after a good reseed only apply as little feed as i can, and only feed when the first signs of disease show, i also switch of all groomers and raise the height of cut to look after the new species i want, and avoid as many chemicals as i can, this for us works, but can be tough for a few years in appearance as the poa is screaming for feed. other tasks are to apply as little chemicals as i can and lots of time behind the spiker, and some seaweed.
Now as for Phils case he is on tennis and clay based, he has two grasses that are worlds apart in nutrition rye and fescue, how would one go about this ? apart from drought conditions where the rye and i would think the fescue should cope ?
Mark
6 Aug 2010 by vid
Having the fescue and rye fighting for domination is absolutely ideal as they are both strong grasses, that way poa will definitely be supressed. Poa is not a hungry plant it is an oportunist it will survive in conditions that other grasses wont but is also quite happy to compete for space if it can - thats where good management comes in. Applying strong fertilisers to the surface plays in to poas hands really as this is where it looks for nutrient. I am not going to suggest that you should starve the grasses - this is sportsturf and it must be fed to sustain the wear and tear expected of it most especially on tennis. What you need to do is starve the poa.
Good aeration and good management of the soil microbes will have the fescues and ryes looking for nutrient deeper in the soil with their strong and vigorous root systems, here they will find plenty of nutrient if the balance of the soil has been looked after and the microbes kept in abundance. Poa does not have this ability - it simply does not like vigorous competition. This is when you can starve the Poa of nutrient and water. The fescues and ryes will be far more tolerant of drought and low artificial fertiliser programmes if they can find what they require deeper in the ground.
Hello,
If you dont mind me asking, what does your fertiliser programme consist of? thats to everyone.
(i wont be back on till 4, off to work in 10 mins)
Cheers
L.K.B
7 Aug 2010 by vid
Hi Lee, I dont want to transgress the rules on here and get a post pulled so I will talk in general terms. After analysing the soil we applied a corrective to bring the potassium content more into line - due to budget constraints we considered this the most important, then applied 50L/Ha microbial feed with additional 20L stabilised N and 5Kg/ha Magnesium Sulphate in 3 applications over the summer
I do apologise for sounding like i was changing the subject. i was trying just to put a slightly different spin on to the poa aspect. Prevention better then cure kind of thing
if i am right in thinking that phosphates and potash encourage poa.
Lee
L.K.B
Vid
You put it into words much better than me cheers, my out look has always been to look after the grasses i want and not the ones i do not want, but try to keep a good playing surface.
Lee
I am not a college trained green keeper, but worked on bowls for 20 years, i would rather see the natural colour of grasses than a synthetic green carpet, i try to apply what the turf requires only by the use of my eyes, and as long as we are moving forward on grass species i am happy, and so are the customers as they keep paying.
As for the nutrition programme, here is one on the change from pure poa , past was 1200 gallons a day(every day) and feed to match.
Liquid feed 10/0/20.....3.5 ltr per 500 sq mtr =7.5 units
March
5 ltr10.0.20
4.2.12 npk organic
June
22ltr 10.0.20
July
8ltr 10.0.20
3 kg sulphate ammonia ( red thread)
Other products have been 5 ltr wetter , and a seaweed application this month 1% n, and about 6 ltr of humic booster, 2 verticuts and lots of aeration.
If it is right or wrong the turf is happy, and changing very well, i will leave it to you guys who wish to add up the nutrients.
Mark
Hi All,
Since my original post I have finally tested the weak Glyphosate treatment (100ml/Hec) on the Poa in my tennis court.
The results are pretty impressive with this seasons Poa (individual plants with prominent seed heads) being killed, while my PRG and fescues remained untouched. The solution had a lesser effect on killing the more established Poa (short, clumpy grass in 5-10cm patches), but did knock it back a little. I think this method is an excellent post-emergence treatment.
Based on conversations both on this board, and with the STRI and Wimbledon, I shall apply ethofumesate (2ltr/Hec) during renovations as a pre-emergence treatment (the side effect might be knocking PRG germination and killing by fescues). I intend to test a small area before renovations to see what effect ethofumesate has on the existing sword.
I also hope that my aggressive scarifying during the rennovation will help remove the more established Poa.
Any feedback will be welcome!
Phil
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