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5 Aug 2010 by boss bean

Been asked to help with end of season work on well established cricket square .
Only guidance I can get on previous maintainance is they " THINK " it was " Surrey Loam " that has been used for top dressing in the past.
Any advice on how to proceed would be welcomed .
Thanks

5 Aug 2010 by Mitch62

They 'think' it was Surrey Loam? Surely the groundsman would know or possibly the treasurer would have a copy of the invoice for the last loam delivery. Imperative boss bean that you find out.

5 Aug 2010 by Loammeister

This kind of thing happens quite often boss bean, and without a very well trained eye it can be extremely difficult to establish which loam has been used with which to top dress a square.

In 999/1000 cases there is almost certain to be some kind of relic of a past bag in the shed. I guess you've explored this already, so next step is to describe colour, consistency and properties of the loam used- that is if you can establish that it was top dressed and that the top dressing was the same as the loam used for construction.

A safer guide is to get the loam laboratory analysed, as in this way you can directly compare it to manufacturers' spec sheets for their different loams. If you want some more detailed guidance then pm any time, always happy to help.

The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train

5 Aug 2010 by jlawrence

Someone within the club will have a copy of the invoice for the loam last year, badger them until they find it.
Don't rely on what bags you find in the shed - there's no guarantee that you'll have that loam on the square (as I found out at my place).

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

5 Aug 2010 by barry glynn

Boss, there is Surrey loam and there is Surrey loam. I use GOSTD 125 which is surrey loam but some think it produces too much bounce. But it seems to work ok on my square.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

5 Aug 2010 by leon

contact your ECB pitch advisor he should no whats been used past and present.

Redbourn Cricket Club

5 Aug 2010 by Sunlover

Barry I use 125 as well and it does a good job. When weather permits, pitches are hard and true. Never had anyone say it has too much bounce though.

If there is no way of determining what loam was used previously then I guess the only answer is to hollow core the square and apply new loam.

World Heavyweight Champ

5 Aug 2010 by Grassman2011

Find last years invoice or get your pitch advisor to send a core sample to the stri for analysis.
They will then advise on a suitable match.
Basically the same as loameister suggests.

5 Aug 2010 by Peter Leroy

Out of genuine curiosity..what is the praticle analysis of Surrey Loam ?

6 Aug 2010 by Peter Leroy

particle

6 Aug 2010 by Grassman2011

What/which "Surrey Loam"

6 Aug 2010 by vid

clay content varies 26 - 33% silt content 40 - 48%, sand 22 - 28% organic matter @4%. Some companies offer different clay contents, some only one. Ask how the different contents are made up - this can be from source or by adding fine sand or clay to the soil to get the percentage right

6 Aug 2010 by barry glynn

Sunlover
Had a groundsmans clinic at my club and the chairman of the association claimed it having done tests on various loams.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

6 Aug 2010 by mackay

One point though - GOSTD loam is NOT Surrey loam, though it is sold by Surrey Loams Ltd. Silt content is GOSTD loam is around about 20% for the 125 (I don't have the exact figure to hand) and for this reason is very different to all other cricket loams on the market. I love the stuff personally.

Furthermore, you'll actually find Surrey loams with clay content form 24% up to 40%, so even more than Vid suggests.

Surely it's time that the industry adopted a code of practice for supplying loam? None of the suppliers will want to do this since they generally get very different materials in from one year to another and bag it up as all the same, but isn't it time that the ECB took a stance on a topic that is so imortant?

6 Aug 2010 by barry glynn

Mackay
Well they sell it as Surrey loam but whatever, seems to have blended in with what was there before which I hd been lead to believe was "Surrey loam" but never found out who supplied it.

Agree though, seems to be a lot of vagaries regarding loam supplies. Not sure how it can be regulated though.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

6 Aug 2010 by jlawrence

No, they sell it as a blended steralised loam - just happens to sold by a company called Surrey Loams.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

6 Aug 2010 by Grassman2011

Andy, at an annual pitch advisor seminar i was of the opinion that it was going to be done.
Have heard no more since though.

6 Aug 2010 by mario

As this is the "life blood" of how our pitches perform - can I propose that we, as a body, lobby the suppliers to conform to a quality standard, albeit, one that is still to be drawn up.

I know no boundaries.

6 Aug 2010 by jontaylor

And let's have a standard to control the amount of loam in the bag while we're at it. Moisture content doesn't appear to be controlled.

The ciderman rolls

6 Aug 2010 by Mal

I totally agree with the argument for having a standard for loams but how far are we going to go with this and how much are we prepared to pay for a standard. I think before you set any standards the things you need to think about is that for every particle size and peramiter you specify it may mean that the supplier will need to be more discerning as to where he gets his supply from and then grade to an even greater extent than they probably do now and not to mention the greater number of lab tests required. Add to that specific moisture content then I expect you could be putting an extra cost on to a bag that would push the cost of some already good loams beyond those that can only just afford the good stuff now. I would say that top flight clubs already specify their loams and can afford to pay for it can the majority of smaller clubs? Out of interest, how does this sit with you Loamister?

Geography is everywhere

6 Aug 2010 by tonybolton

Boughton

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother

6 Aug 2010 by Loammeister

Mal I'm completely in agreement with mario on this one, it's time the 'powers that be' actually sat down with the manufacturers and produced a set of standards that satisfy customers (first and foremost), suppliers and the industry in general. Each brand of loam will always have its own particular qualities that will suit some and not others, but as we always say every location is truly unique so one size would never fit all.

Bath I'm also sure you're correct about analyses but I think this was meant to be for CB advisors' eyes only, although this would clearly benefit most end users enormously.

Kenny perhaps you could set the ball rolling by setting standards in Scotland first? At least it would set a strong precedent and remove some of the unnecessary mystery surrounding so many products.

Some of the claimed analyses vary tremendously from those offered if they are 'checked' at an independent lab. There are some terrific products on the market, but others leave a lot to be desired.

I'm 100% behind any move to make more and useful information available to the punter who, after all, is paying the bill and deserves the opportunity to make their own informed decisions.

The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train

7 Aug 2010 by jlawrence

rather than a set standard they should make producers produce loams that are within say 5% of their published spec sheet.
I think we all know that often loams from any given manufacturer can vary from one batch to the next.
If you ask for spec sheet you often get sent the STRI analysis which was carried out (from the top of my head) about 5 years ago - my bet would be if you got the loam tested it wouldn't be the same as in the sent spec.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

8 Aug 2010 by Loammeister

What kind of quality standard would be required mario? There are only three ways of one being brought forward in reality, either through customer demand (you say what you want), Industry imposed (ECB/STRI/Pitchcare) or the suppliers form a body to co operate on a standard.

The last one is unlikely as each is worried the other might get their business. There is a kind of torpor from Industry bodies where the status quo suits their situation. So that only leaves the end user to impose some kind of demands. Agreed jl's idea is a good starting point, there are some who might struggle to meet their own particular claims in my experience.

The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train

8 Aug 2010 by jontaylor

So if this loam stuff is so variable, is "you mustn't change loams" just an old wives tale? Or are they really less variable than this posting may lead some to believe?

The ciderman rolls

8 Aug 2010 by barry glynn

Is it not that loams not being mixed is not a good idea but more that the quality of loams is not consistent?
There seems to be quite a lot of evidence that mixing loams can produce breaks etc.

What do I do? I just cut the grass.

9 Aug 2010 by jlawrence

the loams from one company seem to exhibit similar shrinkage characteristics even though they may vary in composition somewhat.
changing loams isn't necessarily a massive problem - so long as you do it correctly. The problems come from not integrating the new loam well enough.

Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

9 Aug 2010 by Loammeister

I think we'd all be interested as to what boss beans' course of action might be after all of this advice and debate. Can you let us in on the conclusion please boss bean or do you need more input?

The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train

9 Aug 2010 by wicketdevil

I have changed 3 Squares from surrey loam to onger and found no problems as long as you do plenty of hollow coring and remove the old cores and do this for five years then continue to top dress with ongar each autumn. Ian

Can you just is the longest sentence in the world !!!!!!!

9 Aug 2010 by Grassman2011

Integration, integration, integration.

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