Yesterday we were reducing the height of a 50 ft long privet hedge from about 10 foot to 6 foot. The easiest way to do it is to stand in the back of the pick up truck, as it is just the right height and very stable. One person trims while the other edges the truck forward very slowly on his signal. The man on the back holds the rail behind the cab when it is moving the 5-6 ft each time. We have done this for at least the last 5 years with no problems. We are on our land not on the highway.
Now some busy-body with a gripe with the council is spouting off about H&S and has reported us to the parish clerk, who has now queried this method of cutting this and other hedges.
I'm sure this is common practice and I would rather do it this way than on a pair of steps on uneven ground. I suppose we could use 2 trellis stands and a scaffold board, but I still think our way is safer and more stable and you have the advantage of the sides of the truck to brace yourself.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks.
Ludicrous disregard for safe work practices.
Consider: Front wheel of pick-up drops into rabbit hole, even at slow speed, man on back lurches to one side unexpectedly, slips on smooth metal deck and impales himself on hedge-cutter or worse...
Doesn't matter whose land you're on - the victim will seek to sue someone as will HSE.
Could be a timely intervention from somebody attempting to save you from yourself.
You've been very lucky for 5 years - go and buy a lottery ticket.
GOGGA
Fidget,
Always use approved equipment for working at heights.
my staff used to do the same before my time with a tractor / trailer, they were permitted to use the trailer as a platform only, once a handrail had been fitted, but they had to get off when vehicle moving - it was an accident waiting to happen.
One of the 1st things i done was buy a henchman, cheap, reliable , well made and approved for use, yes it takes longer, but you cant put a time scale on peoples safety.
fidget I have also used this method with no problems at all, I use the trailer on the back of my 4X4, so whats more stable then a 16ft long 7ft wide twin axled trailer or a set of tresells/scaffold on grass up against a hedge, I didn't have the trailer moving whilst I cut and I did put the cutter down when it moved, the width of the trailer actually allows you to have a more stable base because you can have one foot infront of the other and if you lost your balance you wouldn't fall anywhere because you are still on the trailer. I am sure you knew the reaction you would get from the Health and safety mob, the problem is is that your living in the real world and using common sense, you really must stop it, the fact that using the other methods mentioned above would probably make the job prohibitively expensive has nothing to do with it.
In sympathy Andy.
If you stick your head above the parapet.......
No rabbit holes & lined ribbed non-slip surface. The hedge trimmer is put down whilst creeping forward a few feet, as it is heavy, so it is nice to put it down for 2 seconds. The job takes 20 minutes. I normally do it on my own so I have to jump & down each time & move the truck.
All above points noted and I will re-evaluate how we do it next year.
Thanks.
What did you want - a medal for bravery?
Anyway, you described a multi-person operation:
One person trims while the other edges the truck forward very slowly on his signal. The man on the back holds the rail behind the cab when it is moving the 5-6 ft each time
So from what you haven't told us there could have been a posse of Polski's in the pick-up parading power-tools.
GOGGA
wat a palarva....all we do is use an approved safety cage on the front of a JCB Loadall....simplez....
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
One person trims while the other edges the truck forward very slowly on his signal = 2 persons.
Maybe I should have said, 'One person was trimming while the other edged the truck forward very slowly on his signal.'
Still only 2 people, but maybe more grammatically correct.
As I said, in previous years I have done it on my own, but yesterday I wasn't available.
Next year I will get it flailed to a more manageable height, now I know this a very dangerous method and I am lucky to be alive.
I, personally, don't mind if you're on your own and do the Hari Kari but when there are more than one person, ie. multi-persons - and there is blood involved there is also a lot of paperwork. And I hate paperwork!
When you win the lottery remember those of us here who assisted you in surviving long enough to cash the cheque!
GOGGA
12 Aug 2010 by RWP
 |
If I win I'll set up a 'hedge fund' for you.
12 Aug 2010 by Barry Pace Last edited 12 Aug 2010
Surely, in common sense/backside cover land the use of a fall arrest harness, (to stop the fall from height! but you have to be trained to put the damn thing on and then use it! ie a piece of paper to say you can safely fall off something now!) a simple modified hand rail attachment/trailer cutting cage unit (to stop the fall off the vehicle! but can you get a CE mark on it!) and clear instruction/method statement/working practice/regular toolbox meetings everytime the kettle whistles, just remember to write it down to have the vehicle stationary, turned off and secure each time it has moved before cutting begins is what would be done where the fog of practical/madness comes in... you are dealing with the risks of course, but who would cover it........ hhhmmmm
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Barry, our H&S consultant said to my predecessor that a home made platform utilising our 3 tonne trailer was acceptable to use, the things they constructed for this to " make safe" would have made the A team jealous, it was a montage of scaffold planks and round steel and was the weight of a small country ( and no CE mark) and took the best part of a morning to construct, and like Sumo says, all Ok until someone falls off it then people ask questions.
Our henchman platform cost less than £300.00, though to be honest, we could do with a wider one.
13 Aug 2010 by vid
I'm sorry but there is just so much I can take of this 'wrapped in cotton wool' that goes on. We are not talking someone tearing along the hedge line, we are talking edging along. A harness would be a waste of time and restrict the operator further, what would the harness actually be doing??. This is a stable platform with a good handhold, operated by 2 people in good communication with each other. I cant see where the risk in this is. Rabbit holes sumo?... what if he turned his ankle in one whilst cutting the hedge from ground level. We can all think of ways we can injure ourselves in every job we do - most of it however is eliminated by sensible and professional experienced practise. If we go on like this we will eventually ruin our paymasters - there is not a limitless amount of money nor is there anything like a completely safe practise in any practical job involving powerful machinery. Accidents can and will happen no matter how we guard against them because there is a human element involved and that element acts unsafely without thought on occasion. Our job as managers is to make the job safe ie make sure the operator is properly prepared and equipped within the parameters of what can be afforded.
To me this would be a very cost effective safe way to cut a hedge - in my opinion a trestle or platform much less so as the potential for this to tip over or the operator to step off the edge is much greater and only a tiny bit safer than a step ladder. The potential for disaster in a cage on a cherry picker or JCB to my mind is far greater still.
where did you get that picture from RWP?
L.K.B
RWP's pic is from a news story covering some morons working not 5 km's from our branch workshop in small-town NZ. It was in the local paper and also, I believe, made the 'web'.
GOGGA
14 Aug 2010 by lee@standish Last edited 14 Aug 2010
Thanks Sumomsr.
What a bunch of crazy fools, i'd hate to think what goes on in their heads.
Cheers
L.K.B
14 Aug 2010 by Mal
 |
Geography is everywhere
Just buy a long reach cutter and do it on foot ?
Hedge is 10 foot wide.
15 Aug 2010 by RWP
RWP's pic is from a news story covering some morons working not 5 km's from our branch workshop in small-town NZ. It was in the local paper and also, I believe, made the 'web'.
Yes thats right, story is here: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2009/11/24/sky-high-gardening-man-uses-mower-attached-to-crane-to-trim-hedge-115875-21846590/
I thought it was a trick photo to start with, nutters.
Fidget could you borrow/hire a flail on a tractor?
15 Aug 2010 by vid
For years I worked in my evenings on a dairy farm helping the farmer to bring in the Hay - this involved stacking bales on a flatbed trailer with no sides to a height of 15 - 20 feet, to my certain knowledge this practise is still going on as there are very few ways to bring in these smaller bales. This involved moving along sometimes at quite some speed with the stacker sitting on a bale whilst he did so. How on earth you lot reckon that standing on a virtually stationary flatbed truck with sides and a handhold is more dangerous than this is beyond me. I would very occasionally hear of someone injuring themselves on a hay wagon but this was very rare the worst that could happen in this case is he would fall against the hedge and scratch himself. Why not leave fidget alone and let him get on with his perfectly workable practise in peace. And fidget I would use this as an example of other people carrying out 'normal' common tasks in less safe conditions who receive no criticism at all.
15 Aug 2010 by Mike Last edited 15 Aug 2010
It all boils down to what you consider more important - getting the job done, or ensuring that you are 'bulletproof' should any accidents occur.
I know personally, in my current place of work, I would do things by the book only using approved practices. Why - because I work for someone, and they put their trust in me to not put their reputation in jeopardy. Yes, jobs do take longer, more paperwork is involved, more gear is usually required etc, but a fundamental part of my role is to ensure that we do things by the book - that's what i'm paid to do. Do I agree with it - yes and no. A modicum of common sense will usually ensure that a job is completed safely - if you use skilled and responsible operators, the chances are that the above practice would be perfectly safe. If you were to have an inexperienced operator working without supervision, chances are he'll be eating through a straw for the rest of his days - this is where common sense management comes in. However, we are all guided, or should be anyway, by company policy - if those policies dictate that things are done by the book (and in turn suppress a managers judgement), then to fulfill your role properly, this is the way you should proceed. If their is no such documentation or policy in place, then it's up to the manager to make the call, but the manager must keep in mind that if they do make the call to proceed with what would be considered as unapproved practices, and an accident does occur, there could be consequences which could ultimately lead to the termination of their employment, and in the worst cases, criminal procedings - rightly or wrongly, it is a fact of life and part of the world we live in today.
Mike
15 Aug 2010 by vid
So Mike according to what book is this practise unsafe, you havent said. He has a worker with machinery on a stable platform with hand holds and sides. This is far safer than any ladder or any trestle. Explain to Fidget what risk he is taking. If I was doing the risk assessment about the only stipulation I would make is that the operator must dismount the pick up if the vehicle is to be driven at speed, other than that I would consider this safer than working on the ground as there are sides to give an extra foothold and an extra handhold and all the relevant equipment will be right there with him. Try taking your 'book' Mike and wave it at a farmer loading bales onto a trailer or in to a rick and see what response you get.
As I said before what benefit would a harness serve - all of 600mm off the ground.
How would a trestle be safer
how would a cage attached to a hydraulic lift be safer, considering the much much higher risk of operator mistakes - you will never see the trimmer operator dismount this cage whilst the height or position is changed and there is the risk (i have been frigtened myself by this) of the operator accidently moving a lever and the cage has to be constantly moved back and forth as it cant be aligned sideways on with the hedge.
Flail mowers are much harder to get to do a job well and attractively, are restricted with accesses and obstacles, make a dreadful mess, are a danger to the public in proximity and damage the hedge making it prone to disease and breakage.
Working from the ground with an extended trimmer only works if the trimmer reaches the full width and is vastly harder work.
Fidget - just dont let them get to you - ask what part of what you are doing is unsafe, ask how and why another method is considered safer. Ask the person concerned which part of what you are doing is unsafe. Ask your operators if they feel safe and are happy and confident in what they are doing. Brief them on the risks at each job. And if you are really worried about backlash get the operators to sign the risk assessment that they have been briefed and understand the risks involved. Above all Fidget dont listen to what they are saying here unless they back their generalisations with some factual and usable content!!
There I've said my bit!! Going to leave this thread alone now!!
15 Aug 2010 by Mike Last edited 15 Aug 2010
Vid - i'm not saying any way is right or wrong - it's not my place to say. Different environments and circumstances would warrant different calls. Do I think that what Fidget has been doing is safe, without seeing the site, and assuming that he is using skilled and responsible workers, I would suggest that the risks would be minimal in all honesty, but it goes back to my first comment - is it more important to Fidget to get the job done or cover himself should anything happen? That's up to Fidget to make the call.
I currently aim to work to what is specified by an operators manual, because like I said, that's part of my remit outlined by my employer - I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it, I just get on with doing what i'm paid to do, in the manner i'm instructed to. A little while ago my bosses instructed me to ensure that none of our staff ride on a trailer (with sides) attached to a tractor that won't do more than 8.5mph - is sitting in the back of the trailer dangerous - no, I don't personally think it is, but if I argued the fact, or continued to do so regardless of the instructions, I, or the other boys could have found ourselves facing disciplinary procedures.
If I were working in a different environment, say loading bales onto a trailer (which I spent 4 years doing for the local bike races over here, with no harnesses and on public roads, and also worked for 3 years during my youth working on a farm in the school holidays), would my views change - yes they would, because my opinions wouldn't be suppressed by the restrictions that had been outlined to me.
Without seeing the site, or the job, I wouldn't make any assumptions about trestles, harnesses, a cage, flails or anything else in regards to what would be the safest method.
The only actual advice that I would give to Fidget, would simply be to refer to the operators manual for the equipment that he plans to use, and make a judgement call based on the information within.
Mike
15 Aug 2010 by minch
Some very wise words on this thread.
Common sense is great - risk assessments are great, the corrct responsible approach is great, but consulting the operators manual is imperative. Herein lie the parameters to which the machine is safe, or dangerous, to use. It is up to the manager to interpret these and make the judgement.
Health & Safety is not intended to cripple industry, nor bring sensible operations to a grinding halt.
I'm giving a talk on The Safe operation of machinery in the New Year - does anyone have any pics of unsafe or potentially unsafe practices, or minor accident scenes? e.g. the earlier shot of the mower on a sling!!
to paulw@mgcnew.co.uk - would be very much appreciated.
Regards - Paul.
22 Aug 2010 by Mal
Some of you may be interested to know that while I was visiting someone in the area of Victoria station this weekend, I noted a large open 4x4 pickup with a bowser mounted in it and a chap stood in the back bracing himself (Against admitidly a hand rail all round) as the driver sped along at 30mph with a long extended lance in hand. Out watering hanging baskets. is this safe? if the driver was going slowly maybe. then my thought turned to how I travelled to my destination, tube. Strange isn't it that it is against the law to travel in a car without a seat belt but you can travel on public transport without one ok. presumably the government thought that it would be too expensive for companies to implement. I'm not saying that I think it is wrong but when we each make a descision to travel on public transport we consciously or un-consciously weigh the risk. So weigh the risk.
Geography is everywhere
Well guys, for the last 2 days I have witnessed a guy cutting about 6 foot off a hedge from standing on top of a tractor (no rails) then sitting on an old door on top of the hedge to reach the rest. He will be back again tomorrow to finish - weather permitting - when asked why "because members are questioning my pride in my work".
that guy needs throwing off site then Vic...that is just plain stupid....please dont tell me its at your place....doing those hedges we looked at.....
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
Ticky, that's easy to say until you know the facts. The guy is being threatened and trying to look after his income by doing the job without the tools. The management won't help him and the members are after him.
25 Aug 2010 by vid
Now that is a recipe for diaster!! Poor bloke - I sympathise, he will probably get away with it. If he doesnt he will be the loser in just about every way as he will be seen as negligent tackling a job he knows to be risky without the right equipment. He may get his employer done at the same time but that wont necessarily improve his position
25 Aug 2010 by Mike Last edited 25 Aug 2010
I'm sympathetic too.. it's really a case of buggered if he does, and buggered if he doesn't. Earlier in my career, I regularly found myself being forced into similar positions - I chose to stick to my guns, and if things got particularly bad, I would quote the right " to leave, propose to leave or return to the work site", which suggests that the employee may leave the site if there was, or they thought there was imminent danger to themselves or others - I only had to exercise this once, but after I did, people got the message that I wouldn't be backed into a corner. It made for a challenging period to say the least, but after witnessing some pretty bad accidents through the years, I figured I was the one that was right to refuse, and the problem laid squarely with the people that were trying to get me to undertake jobs that were clearly dangerous and very much illegal.
Mike
Vic...to be fair..you havent told us the facts...so we only respond to what info is available...and i stand by what i said....the guy should A) be thrown off site for total neglect of H&S...or B) he should flately refuse to do the work until adequate kit is available.......how is he being threatened...you mean told if he doesnt he is out of a job,.??..then i would tell whoever to shove it....simply go home and phone the local HSE and get them on a site visit....i would rather lose a job than my life or limb...its absolutely crass and pathetic situations like this that cause sole traders like me to have to carry out certificate training to comply with legislation bought in by situations like this...and to be fair..if its at your ground mate..as the senior groundsman...you should be backing him up and not let him do the work without proper kit.......especially when i offered to bring the JCB and a cage up to do the work....
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
ticky, the job in question was priced for by contractors and turned down as too expensive. If it were at my site, I would not waste the contractors time by asking them to come in and quote, knowing they wouldn't get the work. The job in question was started by one of the guys bosses who gave up after one sixth of the hedge was cut. Naturally this looked rough and people who didn't know the facts started to question the groundsmans pride and suggest it was time to get rid of him.
If it were me they'd have been made well aware of the facts.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
Vic......ah got ya now......this kind of thing pi55es me right off...these people who have the authority at sports clubs, ie comittees, members etc etc...have absolutely no clue as to what costs are involved in maintaining a ground....i get it all the time, invited to quote for work and then they have a coronery at the price....how do they think we dispose of greenwaste etc etc....our local recycling plant want £95 per ton to go over the weighbridge, grab loaders cost in excess of £400 a pop to dispose of greenwaste. and even if there is a facility to leave arisings on the site somewhere to "compost" down all my tree surgeon mates are charging £650 a day to do work....
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
Back to Top - Go to Next Unread Message
This Message is closed, you may not post a reply at this time
