hi all,a cricket club close to me are wanting to know if they could top dress with kaloam during end of season renovations having previously used ongar loam-can anyone tell me if they are compatable and will they have layering problems etc?
britboy
hi ebony, can't believe anyone would go that way!!! I have used them the other way around and with a lot of hollow tining it was reasonably successful.
Vic.
hi vic,can you tell me more about the problems then-i have never used ongar but have worked a lot with kaloam.
britboy
ebony, I'm sure it was just my lack of knowledge at the time but I could never get any bounce when on Kaloam, I also found it hard to grow grass but I know of others who love it. I certainly do not wish to promote Ongar or advertise but it is used on the majority of County grounds and I have not heard of many wishing to change before now.
Where I am now, we use Gostd Super Natural over Kaloam and that works well.
Think with Kaloam it is all a matter of keeping some moisture in, not a problem for us today!!
you are right about kaloam,i feel it does cause problems with low bounce unless you get moisture levels dead right and you need to be a full time groundsman for that to move covers on /off etc which i am not!-would you say you have had success then going from kaloam to ongar?
britboy
you are right about kaloam,i feel it does cause problems with low bounce unless you get moisture levels dead right and you need to be a full time groundsman for that to move covers on /off etc which i am not!-would you say you have had success then going from kaloam to ongar?
britboy
Kaloam and Ongar are very different materials. Definately wouldn't do this under any circumstances.
Ongar is lovely stuff to work with and will produce good results. Kaloam is a pig. If the bounce is low or there are other problems with the wickets then it is more likely to be down to factors such as poor sward, lack of adequate roots, textural differences within the soil profile/ soil breaks or even plain old wicket prep etc etc - I certainly wouldn't be looking to point the finger at the loam..
If they are looking to speed up the surface then switch to Ongar Plus as this should yield fewer potential problems.
to answer your question, in three years the bounce went from one third stump height to stump height, so i was happy. but mackay is right, i had to do something because if a batsman played back, he was out lbw. did changing loam increase the sward, quite probably. also should say for first three years we used ongar plus. why do the club want to change?
Hi ebony, Vic is right to ask why the club is considering this change to the square.
Kaloam and Ongar are different forms of clay loam and as such are tricky to integrate well, especially as Vic says when the base is Ongar and the Kaloam is being introduced in the upper reaches.
If you can explain the reasons why the club is considering the change then I'm sure the guys will come up their remedies to the problem the club is experiencing. There is a feeling in some quarters that by using Kaloam you might get increased pace and bounce due to the (far) higher clay content, but Ongar (in its various forms) will produce perfect pace and bounce with the right management.
As mackay rightly points out management of whatever loam you have in your square often comes down to efficient moisture content control and drastic moves such as this can be unnecessary.
Can you give us the thinking behind the proposed change and then perhaps you'll get an even more constructive answer.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
26 Aug 2010 by pacman75cricket
Couple of points if you could clarify.
My understanding is that kaloam + ongar have similar clay content but that kaloam is different to other loams in that can shrink 2-3 times more than other loams due to it makeup.
Allso I thought ongar+ was ongar including surrey loam, so believe straight ongar would give better pace + bounce than ongar+.
I currently have a kaloam square and will keep it so but if I was to have a new square would have straight ongar
Sorry Vic I know you hate the Kaloam.
Hi pacman
You're right that Ongar plus is Ongar/Surrey; 2/3 Ongar to 1/3 Surrey. Just goes to show that even at the highest levels of the game there is absolutely no fear of 'mixing loams'!
Ongar Loam and Ongar Loam Plus are published at 31 and 30% Clay content respectively, my findings over the seasons (throgh independent laboratory testing) have shown Kaloam to be well above this- Kaloam do not publish figures on this product.
I think your comment that straight Ongar would give better pace and bounce than Ongar Plus may or may not be true. It's probably far more a matter of management and groundsmanship that is going to make the difference between these very similar loams. They certainly work well at Test and County level with full time groundsmen at lots of different venues. If you have the right equipment and enough time and skill it is possible to produce excellent surfaces with most of the proprietary loams on the market.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
26 Aug 2010 by mario
Loamy - your last sentence - "If you have the right equipment and enough time and skill it is possible to produce excellent surfaces with most of the proprietary loams on the market."
What, in your opinion, would be the loams which may not produce excellent results?
I know no boundaries.
Perhaps the word 'most' was not well chosen mario- I've found 'all' loams to produce excellent results with the right equipment, time and skill to prepare them, but found that some loams can be difficult for the part time groundsman to cope with adequately.
This can be particularly true for Kaloam and GOSTD 125 as the high clay content can mean that, without adequate time, covering or both, tracks can either dry out too quickly or too slowly according to prevailing conditions.
Most issues with loams on cricket squares in my opinion comes from groundsmen not being able to manage the loam adequately in their own particular circumstance. This is not a criticism of recreational or 'part time' groundsmen, more of an acknowledgement of the fact of life that if you're not at or near to a ground 24/7 then movements of covers and sheets simply cannot be achieved at the times you would most want them done.
Having seen top notch results with say Mendip Loam is more a testament to that groundsman's skill rather than a recommendation that we all look towards Somerset to get our supplies. Each loam has its peculiar requirements to manage it properly, skills that take time to learn, which all goes to make it such a fascinating subject.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
hi guys-by what you are saying they should def not switch from ongar to kaloam and i will pass this on.
on my own square we have used kaloam for a long time now and it is hard to work with-moisture has to be just right for bouncy tracks but let it get too dry and bounce is max of half stump height-so in my case ,should i consider turning to ongar in the future and how is best way to integrate it ?
britboy
Hi ebony
If you're seriously thinking about changing why not explore the whole range of loams available and see what might suit you best?
Then you can consider Ongar, Surrey (various forms), Boughton, Mendip, GSB et al and explore the options fully.
Motty testing is a simple starting point where you can compare shrink/swell characteristics inexpensively and in the comfort of your own shed. By talking to others who have changed loams you can learn how they integrated one with the other and work out a plan that would work for you.
With it not being an 'exact science' gather all of the information you can get your hands on and be selective with the advice you'll be offered. Making such a move is best done carefully and with as much independent experienced advice as possible. Your local County Pitch Inspector is always a good starting point, then compare and contrast all of the opinions you are offered.
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
Feel a koro message coming from down under. Pac you couldn't even grow spuds in that stuff as Frank well knew!!!
26 Aug 2010 by pacman75cricket
Thats ok if someone else is paying for it.
Or they could relay the whole square as apparently we play in the wrong direction. (has stopped some funding).
Frank though has probably sold the stuff to most of the clubs around here.
Glad spuds dont grow in the stuff can you imagine trying to dig them out.
I have looked at two squares very recently, both having Kloam at the surface, both complaining about low bounce.
Taking 150mm cores from both, found that the soil below the top 6mm was as dry as dust, that dry that some fell out the corer. The top 6mm was only moist because it had rained the day before.
I believe there are far to many of us out there, full time, part time, volunteer etc, that do not apply enough water. It has to be applied to depth and allowed to dry out slowly over a few days. Not flood the top and five minutes later roll it.
This summer has found a few out, especially with regards drying wickets out. Often far to little water and allowed to dry out all in a day.
Its at times like this that you learn the most.
26 Aug 2010 by Mike
I agree with Bath 100%. Were on Kaloam, and on our main square, which gets the most input in terms of prep, there is plenty of pace and bounce when you get the prep right. The only problem I find with Kaloam are that you really are at the mercy of the weather - to make it work, you need to get your wicket prep bang on - if the weather conditions interfere with that, you can have a problem, but there again, that's where the skill of the groundsman comes in imo.
I've also heard it said many times that it is difficult to grow grass in Kaloam. Personally, I can't say the same as we have good germination within 7 days of seeding usually, and our micro-climate is far from ideal for grass establishment. I have found that some highly regarded seed mixtures won't grow in Kaloam at all, but others will thrive.
I think it's the same with everything - to get the best out of the product, you have to find what works, mainly through trial and error. It is possible to get good tracks on Kaloam... it may not be as easy as some, but it can be done.
Mike
26 Aug 2010 by vid
I completely agree Bath I think far too many part time groundsmen (and a few full timers) think a perfect pitch is all about rolling lots and getting it as dry as possible. Although I get howls of protest....... in this weather we had earlier this year we do our pitch soaking on Tuesday (4days before play) and after the initial roll shade the pitch with the covers - this seems to leave the right amount of moisture as the pitch plays well with pace and bounce and stiil has 'play left in it after 180 overs. Pace and bounce are only achieved with moisture and the correct amount of rolling as it dries, too much and you get variations in bounce too little and you dont achieve pace. Just right = years of experience and knowing your own square. The worst of all however is too little water and too much rolling - variations in pace and bounce
26 Aug 2010 by pacman75cricket
Totally agree Mike we are on Kaloam (i am only part time so do what i can to manage moisture)& have a really good pitch as current custodian I may be biased in thinking we have a really good track.
I wouldnt change Kaloam as always got on ok with it so far. Work hard to promote good rooting . May just have to work a bit harder than other loams.
Was referred to as a Road previously when we had a better groundsman than me.
However must be doing something right as bowlers complaint are the same as when we had a the previous groundsman
26 Aug 2010 by tidod
Hi Guys
Most club squares around here (probably 95%)in Warwickshire tend to use Kaloam. Its the local loam and generally is the closest match to the naturally-occurring soil in the majority of cases.
I know that Chris Wood ECB has been trying to get all loam suppliers to give the exact breakdown/makeup ie clay/silt/sand content etc on an annual basis. I don't know how successful this has been but it would be a great help me thinks.
I know that Kaloam is produced from more than one site around near where I live -presumably it is blended but whether this is changing the makeup of the Kaloam we find in our bags who knows.
Incidentally have any of the school guys who have finished their cricket season noticed a residue of small stones/grit around 3/4mms diameter on the surface following topdressing with Kaloam. The recent heavy rains have washed the topdressing in well but highlighted the extent of the problem.
Geoff Calcott
Have you spoken to Goundry about it Geoff? I am about to have my first load delivered in the morning. Getting the rest delivered next week. Over recent years i think the quality of the Kloam has improved a lot. Dont want to hear that it has gone backwards again
26 Aug 2010 by tidod
Yeah spoke to Alan Ford @ Goundreys yesterday (He lives 100 metres from me) and will be giving him the evidence.
It may be that I was just unlucky, but grit/stones can big cause problems with cylinder blades on the Dennis and tungsten tips on my Graden the following season.
Have to agree with you,Gordon, in that the Kaloam has improved in the past few years
27 Aug 2010 by olaf
They been getting it from the 2nd bend at Perry Barr, thought the track was a bit slick.
Up the Rockets.............
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
27 Aug 2010 by A J
Wondered What that dog s*** was?
tidod,
We had 7x tonne bags delivered in july, Never had it loose before. As well as keeping it dry, i had noticed a gritty feel to it when moving it around? particularly as it was drying out when raking for levels on a new track were working on.
I Would be very interested on your findings? We not that far away also.
Cheers, Andy.
Grow in grace...........
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