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longshank
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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Help!!

I just took on a new square,

It has loads of moss in it. Its clear no spiking has been done. Infact no maintenance all winter!!!

Im planning to rip this out and re seed and feed. Is this going to be ok?? Weather permitting??

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greenkeeper sn
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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that would be ok. but i would give it a spike as soon as possable. then spray it with liquid iron at the end of march. overseeding would be a good idea once the weather walms up.
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longshank
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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so ok to spike with a punch spiker??
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greenkeeper sn
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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yes as long as it is fairly dry
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Greg Spence
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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I'm always interested in discussions on moss as we've been suffering from it for years. Can't really add to advice given other than to say you need to lightly scarify to remove the moss after killing it off as I don't think the seed will take without doing this.Also remember liquid iron will turn the moss black but doesn't completely kill it.
I would like to know why Sam suggests end of March for the liquid iron rather than a.s.a.p.

Greg
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pacman75cricket
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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What is causing the moss, may need to find this out before treating the symptom ?
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Mike
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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Weather conditions of late have been very conducive to moss infestation. I wouldn't be overly concerned with it at this time. Bear in mind that application of iron can limit the success of germination of any seed that will be applied. I would also be a little cautious of spiking the square right now, unless we are talking a sarrel roller or similar.
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barry glynn
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I've got some on an end track that is reclaimed outfield and a colts pitch. I was going scarify it and whack some seed on but wAit until hopefully warmer weather in March. I was going to do it just before I start psr and just roll the seed in without any loam, rightly or wrongly.
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Mike
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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Rightly, Barry.

Mike
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Speckledhen
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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ste

You have moss because your grass is weak!
Carry out everything that will encourage good strong grass growth and ignore the moss, do the basics right and you will be okay, try and rectify long term problems overnight and you will spend all year worrying about bare areas on your square.

Ste
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Barry Pace
Posted 17 Feb 2011
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'Where the future is being made today'

The way I have always been led and thought of moss is it is there, in your swards for a reason, (I have a great mossy lawn) sometimes because it likes the conditions better than grass and it can outcompete it, sometimes the grass doesn't like the conditions and thin swards allow moss in... low light levels, damp, anaerobic, poor soils, compaction, now is it because the moss is strong or just opportunist and stronger than grass when grass is stressed....
Whatever try and deal with the reason moss is proliferating as well as the moss itself...
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barry glynn
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Problem is, what to do to stop the moss appearing?
to a degree it seems to be uncontrollable,especially on the outfield. I mean if you have no money to put anything on the outfield, there is nothing you can do is there?
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jlawrence
Posted 18 Feb 2011 Last edited: 18 Feb 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

BP: yes, moss is there for a reason - everything is there for a reason.
IIRC, moss thrives in the following conditions:
Water logged soils.
compacted soils.
weak grass covered areas.
shaded areas.

IMO, you're quite often going to get moss on cricket squares over the winter.
The nature of the loam we use means that when it gets wet over winter it stays wet.
Cricket squares are compacted - or at least I hope they are :). Unless you're going to decompact the square every year then you're going to have this problem. I spend a lot of time getting compaction into my squares and I'll be damned if I'm taking it out every year (frost does enough decompacting as it is).
The open growth habit of PRG gives plenty of room for moss to get in.

If you've lots of moss, then get some air in there (spiking) and get some Fe on then scarify the moss out. Over a few years you'll reduce the moss to manageable levels.

Once at manageable levels, apply some Fe throughout the winter but especially before you thin the sward out ready for PSR.

IMO, moss is simply a fact of life in a cricket square, but we can get things into a state where any moss which does accumulate over the winter is so weak it is easily removed early doors ready for the playing season.
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sculler
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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something for people to mull over looks like most people use fe for moss is it possible that the moss is becoming resistant to it and better approach whould be to look at using a copper mix for instance in your programme use a intragated system same works with fungicides i might be barking up the wrong tree but would like to any thoughts.
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jontaylor
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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The ciderman rolls

Longshanks says: It has loads of moss in it. Its clear no spiking has been done. Infact no maintenance all winter!!!

This is an unmaintained surface that probably has moss for loads of reasons. Item 1 on the agenda is to reduce the moss to an acceptable level. Item 2 is to reduce future reinfestation.

So yes, treat it now with iron. Rake it out a week or so later. Overseed if needed (iron has never shown a residual seed germination suppression effect in my experience). You may need to treat again in a couple of months - if there is loads of moss, you won't get it all first time using iron.

Consider using lawn sand. The screams will come from those who haven't done the maths, but this is an undermaintained square and 40kg of sand will not be the death of it. Lawn sand is easy to apply and will also kick the grass into growth.

I'm interested in the recommendation to spike now. Sarrel perhaps, but would people recommend a 3/8" diameter tine as late as this? I am interested because we had Kieth Exton (Glamorgan) talk to our groundsman meeting this week and he described how he deep spikes in the season to bring used tracks back in to play. The logic is clear to me, but we are always told not to spike after January. I'm now wondering why not? If it's good enough for a test match groundsman, why not a club square? Surely PSR will close the holes?
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barry glynn
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I think one reason for not spiking this late is that we could still get frozen conditions and spike holes may not close fully. Also any 2 squares can be different and a test ground is probAbly totally different.
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Speckledhen
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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ste

I will repeat:-

you have moss because your grass is weak

Feed your grass, raise the HofC, scarify/groom gently but regularly, aerate in the winter, overseed, feed more(rye is hungry especially when young.

Shade is not an issue so poor drainage, weak grass sward and compaction are the issues.

Just a point to consider about the compaction, healthy grass which removes moisture from your rootzone with the osmosis action of the roots will put more bounce into your wicket than rolling ever will,
evapotranspiration from the leaves will remove moisture from a depth, evaporation on its own will remove moisture for about 1/2 inch.

Look after your Grass

Ste
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jlawrence
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

JT, I think (after January) it depends what you're spiking with.
I doubt very much that Kieth spikes with 12.5mm (or bigger) tines after Jan (which is what is normally used in winter) - during the winter yes, but not after Jan. Thinner tines might well work fine - though they do get hot and bend very easily. The premise is behind not spiking after Jan is that the holes won't close up and could (note, could not definitely would) affect play.

I'd be interested to know (assuming he does do it) how Kieth gets anything bigger than a needle tine into a county square, to any kind of useful depth, during the summer.
I could soak my tracks for 2 or 3 days and by the time the surface is dry enough to risk putting equipment on there's no way you'll get a big tine into it. It could be that he's using a machine which has enough force (weight) to get the tine in.
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jlawrence
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

Steve, yes you need healthy grass/roots in order to dry a track to depth.
Rolling and drying to depth are two different things.
As you say, rolling will only aid drying of the top 1/2 inch or so. But imho there's more to rolling than drying a track or achieving bounce.
Rolling is about adding compaction (increasing density) which in turn (should) provide a more even bounce (when dried) than leaving the surface to it's own devices. The increased density will provide increased wear resistance as well. Note, I say a more even bounce, this isn't necessarily more bounce.

"Shade is not an issue so poor drainage, weak grass sward and compaction are the issues".

poor drainage - not sure how many times we need to point this out. Cricket squares ARE NOT designed (in general) to drain.
Compaction - well yes, it's a cricket square there's meant to be compaction.
Weak sward. My contention would be that in the case of a cricket square this isn't necessarily the case. The open growth habit of PRG means that even in a healthy sward there is more than enough space for moss to get in.

Addressing things long term is obviously going to be completely different to addressing problems on an unmaintained square.

I'd have no qualms at all with putting Fe on now, scarifying/raking out moss in a week or two then overseeding again.
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jontaylor
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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The ciderman rolls

JL,
He mentioned a Wiedermann machine. And I'm pretty sure he said he was using >10mm tines in summer to 125mm depth.
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jlawrence
Posted 18 Feb 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

I'll have to give him a ring and get some more info.
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zoid
Posted 19 Feb 2011
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Why are you guys wanting to do this stuff in feb?

To coin my nephew's annoying expression: "Chill your beans".

April is usually a good month to get started. Anything before is for dopes imo.
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tricky84
Posted 19 Feb 2011
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it is a wiedermann xf, 13mm tines in the summer isnt a problem, its all about timing. Im sure 10mm tines are available now which is even better, havent used them myself, but certainly will be using them this summer.
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barry glynn
Posted 19 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Tricky, why would you do it in the summer, just interested to understand.
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jlawrence
Posted 19 Feb 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

Zoid, games start in April, I'd suggest that leaving everything until then is just plan crazy.
I try and get started with things in March and take my time though I dare say the weather will get involved and I'll end up rushing round like a proverbial fly in April. Come the first game I'll be knackered after trying to get the grounds ready in under a fortnight.
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jontaylor
Posted 19 Feb 2011
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The ciderman rolls

Zoid,
Have you read the post? He's got moss coming out of his ears. If he leaves it to April then he's not get any chance of a decent surface in May.
If he was asking about rolling, then that might be a different matter. But serious moss needs first treatment NOW.
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GRG
Posted 21 Feb 2011
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Lads, just listen to what Steve 63 is saying. Plant enough seed in the first place, if sward is thin and open overseed again. Keep grass fed during the winter, approx every six to eight weeks with a balanced a/w fert which include iron. The moss will be so slight that it will not be worth bothering with. As for spiking, spike used wickets to death. 9mm tines as deep as you can. Of course you will need to water to help, itys called timing.
If this man has lots of moss now, then treat with iron now and rake out when black, do again if required then overseed generously asap.
As JT says, lawnsand now will be fine and easy for the small club to apply.
I have had germination in the last fortnight, so what is everyone waiting for.
Nice to see you back zoid, ishall enjoy the banter.
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zoid
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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5 days ago by longshank

Help!!

I just took on a new square,

It has loads of moss in it. Its clear no spiking has been done. Infact no maintenance all winter!!!

Im planning to rip this out and re seed and feed. Is this going to be ok?? Weather permitting??


Have I read this post jon?

Er...yes.

I'm sure longshank is keen to get on with dealing with his problem but are you really suggesting he should be dealing with it in Feb?

1) He's got moss because the sward is thin.
2) KIlling it wont remove it. Just make it look ill.
3) So his first couple of wickets look a bit green. Is that really such a problem?
4) There's no point in killing moss, unless it's removed afterwards, otherwise you're worse off than when you started.
5) Removing moss is an aggressive process. So are you suggesting doing this to an already weakened sward when it has little chance of recovery?
6) The OP is thinking of overseeding in feb? What? Seed is expensive stuff. You may as well chuck it down the toilet until temperatures rise.

I could give you a hundred reasons for not doing anything now but you'll probably just blunder in anyway.

Hello grassman! Do you have a previous posting nick?


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panch
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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It's that post winter itch zoid,after 4 months of inactivity.I was still spiking last week and someone posted he'd started PSR! Think grassmans former posting name began with a 'B'
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GRG
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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I could'nt beleive the psr already either.
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Barry Pace
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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'Where the future is being made today'

Now then Gordon, yeah I have seen a couple get started, may have slowed a little since cos of the weather but did dry well in places and grass has been moving well in the SE, seen some rye overseeded since christmas on very exposed race site away well too was amazed...
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barry glynn
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

The only growth Ive seen down here is moss.
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zoid
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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Maybe we have to take into account regional differences. There's every chance that northern squares will be covered in snow next month.

Thanks panch. I forgot Gordon had changed his name. I suppose he got banned for cussing?

;-)
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jontaylor
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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The ciderman rolls

Zoid,
Each to his own. I disagree with you, but that's the beauty of a message board such as this, I can talk of my approach and you can talk of yours.

If I had just taken on an undermaintained square with carpets of moss, then yes, I would treat it with iron as early as this. Two weeks later I would clean out as much of the dead moss as possible, weather permitting, with either a verticutter or a spring tine scarrifier such as you find on an Atco casette machine. Both offer a low impact approach to moss removal without ripping up the soil surface. If large areas were now bare I would seed (on the square, not in the toilet) as I know from experience that I can get significant germination even in late February and that seed is naturally evolved to be able to survive in the cold until the ground warms up. I would know that unless the weather in March was awful, I would have significant germination in place by late March so that I could then start PSR on growing grass, rather than just press a carpet of moss into the soil. Over the rest of the year I would then put in place a program to continue the treatment of the moss as I know I won't get it all in one go.

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zoid
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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As you know jon, I'm always looking to avoid confrontation and arguement.



So, can I suggest the following as a compromise?

As the OP will only need a couple of tracks to get cricket started in April, give two pitches a good ripping with the scarifier a week or two after iron treatment, overseed and cover. That way, if the seed rots in cold damp clay, it won't have cost much and the rest of the square can be treated when sane people would.
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jontaylor
Posted 23 Feb 2011
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The ciderman rolls

?????
That's no compromise, it's just your version of sanity. Nothing at all to do with what I suggested.
I wouldn't rip with a scarifier and I wouldn't cover. The first will destroy the surface and the second will promote fungus and rot on a square run by a volunteer.
Whilst I accept that the West Country is not quite the same as your climate (Liverpool I believe), I think it odd that you completely disregard the opinions of Gordon and Jon L, both of whom I believe to be well respected professional cricket groundsmen who appear to have views more similar to my version of insanity than to yours.
A former team mate (Tom Wainwright) used to play at your place whilst a student in Liverpool (if I have your location right). He was very complimentary about your square and said it was almost as good as ours.....but your clubhouse was miles better than our humble village hall.
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zoid
Posted 24 Feb 2011
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HPIM0212a
Yes, it's a very nice victorian clubhouse but it needs a coat of paint and I wouldn't recommend doing that in February either!

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A J
Posted 24 Feb 2011
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Always a pleasure bringing on the new seed



Nice ground zoid, prity clubhouse too. Is that a mastiff in the corner? Have you got a snap of your ground jon?
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Ben Connell
Posted 24 Feb 2011
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How long is it recommended to leave it after cutting before you apply liquid iron?
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Minormorris64
Posted 24 Feb 2011
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What goes around, comes around

Zoid are the initials of your ground/ Club S.P. ?, a colleague of mine used to play against them if thats the case.
Always said it was one of the better grounds he had played on.
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zoid
Posted 25 Feb 2011
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Yes jon it's a Mastiff and yes Mr. Morris the club is Sefton Park CC.

Unfortunately, it's not my baby anymore, well not on a day to day basis. I'm still retained by the grand title of 'consultant groundsman' which makes me chuckle as all I do is a bit of spraying, scarifying and aerating and I probably won't even be doing that this year.

I do miss the day to day stuff though. Best job in the world.



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barry glynn
Posted 26 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

The moss on my square has got worse and I've got to do something. Money is tight like most clubs but I've got the ok to get it sprayed then after a couple of weeks, go over it with a hired Sisis 600 with a brush attachment to rake it off then overseed just prior to psr to roll it in.
I don't see what else I can do.
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GRG
Posted 26 Feb 2011
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Next year Barry, sow more seed and keep it fed through out the winter. Get rid of any thatch you may still have during the autumn renovations. Spike more often in the time leading up to Christmas. Any more idea's wanted?
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barry glynn
Posted 26 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

If you can cast your mind back to my diatribe last autumn, I had another problem with the trailer scarifier breaking down, so I ended up rushing against the weather and on the advice of the Ecb pitch inspector who helped me, I could only scarify down the line of play on 75per cent of the strips. I put down a bag more than normal to try and counter the lack of a seed bed. I have no spiking this winter cos of the weather.
I have fed twice in the winter with micro granular and was aiming to get some on in April.
Next Reno, I will hopefully be able to scarify in a normal diamond pattern. I had hardly any thatch last September though.
But if the outfield is anything to go by, the weather here has been against us in terms of suitabity for moss in the last year or so.
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seanmichaels
Posted 28 Feb 2011
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JonTaylor

Do you have the protea vericutter? How do you feel it works getting the moss out (once sprayed)? We had a bit of moss last year which was very difficult to remove when the square had dried out. The protea had little effect and I didn't want to ruin the blades in its first year.

With budgets and everything else I plan to get a high iron fertiliser on in the next few weeks and hope it kills the moss. I'll then hopefully get some success with the verticutter and seed before PSR. Thinking of getting a few of those cheap(ish) germination sheets from PC shop.

It's tough fittng it all in on your own especially having moved recently. Persuading the missus that PSR is more important than painting the lounge is wearing thin. She's already agreed to having the OP stay at ours for a couple of months so patience is wearing thin......
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barry glynn
Posted 28 Feb 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Sean
Its like deja vu listening to you mate, new house, doing the ground, DIY to do, having the overseas staying, been there Guv, good luck!
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jlawrence
Posted 2 Mar 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

LOL @sean.
My missus has just about given up requesting anything around the house in the run up to the season, cos she knows regardless of how much she nags it just ain't going to happen - unless it's hammering it down.
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