16 Feb 2004 by M
Name and shame
Hi Tony, While on one hand I agree with your idea, on the other I dont. to name and shame would be great for all of the grounds people that have been treated unfairly over the years, making those responsible for it look real small. But like every thing in life leopards dont change their spots. they would come back and probably 20x worse. there is only ONE way for this trade (grounds and golf) to move into the 21st century Get together form one SUPER govening body Get the backing of parliment and then set down new pay scales, standards of work, education standards and on and on (sorry if theres something you feel strongly about Ive missed) Be our voice and stand up for us, is what I ment it to sound like. creating a long awaited new image (maybe new name) but most important direction and protection from the govening body! something myself as a groundsman dont feel I get from iog! Im sure the golf guys feel the same, they could get more from bigga? So I put this to all who read Message boards what do you lot want ? carry on like this or do something about it! Who wants to start the ball rolling! we have talked about for years and its real BOARING now. this is never going to change unless we all get together and make it change!
Wages
I think both Tony and M have some valid points, I am very lucky in as much as I work for a good club and have nothing to complian about[and no they dont read this site] But I feel that people doing our job should be fairly treated and would surjest that perhap Pitchcare might take it on as they did regarding warm ups on pitches
N & S
I understand the reasons behind your comments. I recently resigned from employment with an independent school; as Head Groundsman I received reasonable a reasonable remuneration package but overall the pay was poor, especially for the gardeners & groundsmen.
Who do you complain to? Like our industry, their is great diversity between the employers. Golf courses to schools to local authorities etc. Each has varying bugetary constraints and each will view gounds managers in differing lights.
As an industry we need to speak with one voice, represented by a professional body (or two....as long as they sing from the same hymn sheet!).
We need to show that we are articulate, intelligent professionals who deserve wages comparible to other professions.
A place to start.......how many of us have actually written to the IOG about the problem. Not just complained verbally, but written down in a sensible fashion. If enough people start to do it then they will listen.
If they do not listen, then we try again and again until they do.
16 Feb 2004 by m
Andy
Andy Andy how true your words are but sadly I think the IOG have been given too many chances and written requests to sort things( there have been loads of people that have questioned many subjects with them) from wages, like they set down a pay scale then advertise jobs that are embarassing lowly paid (i have gone for a job this month advertised in their mag when i enquired about the job I had a laugh, i cant say who and where and how much this place didnt want to pay BUT I will say it made the pay scale look real good NOT!!!) I feel a sensible fasion has been tried on more than one ocassion and now it time to ditch them. letting the trade get on move on and this has to be now! when you say if they dont listen try again try until they do! well good luck coz many before have trued and got NO WHERE ! I think its time to move on and forward and Pitch Care is the right thing to take it there!
16 Feb 2004 by Clive
Pay
Well i am lucky as we are very well looked after by our employers from equipment to staff provision.
The School has excepted that sport plays a major roll and is fully prepared to dig deep to get it.
The IOG do listen when people ask the questions in the correct manner. The IOG have also brought our industry on a great deal, perhaps the reason why the IOG has so many problems is it is a total impossability to please everyone. Times have moved but until all the very big mouths that like to shout and hide come out of the shadows and help move the industry forward it is not difficult to get onto the committees but it does take time and commitment.
Or as you say you would rather have the spokesman for the industry to be a company that has a profit target to hit and is at the end of the day in the whole frame of things in it for the money.
Pitchcare has opened up many great door ways and several other groundsman have happily given up our own personnell time to support it and will continue to do so as it is a great tool for the industry to communicate.
The IOG is also a good educational body that is trying to solve the many issues people have in the industry.
When it comes down to pay if it is 2 low then dont take the job there are many positions out there that do pay a good wage.
The best way forward is for the industry to work as one not like pathetic children fighting in the corner cos until we do we will always be one step behind.
Clive Liddiard MSc
N & S
I agree with CLive about Pitchcare opening new doors, but I to would rather see an independent spokesman for our industry, not a company whose main object is to be profitable.
The IOG do have their faults but they do not deserve to be 'dumped'.
The in-fighting between various groups within our industry accomplishes very little. I do not expect everyone to agree on every subject, but everyone pulling in the same direction would be a start.
I think that Clive has hit the nail on the head by mentioning committment; how many of us are patient and committed enough to try to drive change within the existing framework.
17 Feb 2004 by Prince of Thieves
Pay
I subscribe to the IOG each year and current rate is £35 per annum. For that I'm not sure what I receive, nor do I feel ably represented.
I understand that there are large funds available to the organisation, but from the literature that is sent to me, I'm uncertain as to what this money is or could be spent on?
You talk about pitchcare being a profit making company, in this day and age everything is profit making-it is impossible to survive without-unless government funded. I agree that the IOG should be supported, but only if they are making steps to improve the deal for groundsmen.
I also know that I've taken in large amounts of information from this website and been able to contact companies and people, free of charge, I might add. So where do pitchcare make the money to be able to provide such an excellent service??
They certainly aren't charging me 35 quid a year!
17 Feb 2004 by M
Yes
Thank you Prince, if there was ever a better way of explaining that! I wasnt meaning to upset Clive or Andy by making some or airing some well known facts. whilst I agree with some items mentioned.Some I take a little sadness from Like "the big mouths that are out there" wont be part of it!!!! Sadly you should do a little home wk. most not all have at some stage played a part in the "Drive" for the "Framework" to move on. From what I see (Which is different to others, no problem with that) they THE IOG have had more than enough days, months and years to sort it. Like the Prince I pay to be a member and dont see where and what that money goes on, Clive you must be lucky to have found the job that pays well and looks after you As you are one of a small number. To say that if the job pays bad dont take it is so unfair, There are NOT "many jobs out there that do pay a good wage" And if there are they normally are already filled before they get advertised. last thing Andy and Clive who do you both think should take the lead on this? IOG ? PITCH CARE? BIGGA? WHO? Have a nice day M
pay
To respond to the comment on how the IOG spend their money. They are currently sponsoring members that are studying for higher qualifications and a number of research projects that on completion will increase the knowledge base on parts of our industry.
Pitchcare do provide a good service, especially since it is free. But one comment ; 'Do you think that the advertising is free on the site?'
17 Feb 2004 by STAFF - John Richards
Andy
Interesting final comment, Andy. Do you think the advertising should be free?
17 Feb 2004 by Ray
money
How do you go about getting sponsorship for higher education and how many students are eligible for this?
Is there a fixed number of places available and are the research projects seperate to the education grants?
Money
Ray, if you contact the IOG office they will be able to send you the relevant info. The do require a breakdown of the expences involved and whether you are getting financial assistance from your employer etc.
I always work on the adage: 'If you don't try, you don't get'.
Over the lasy year or so the criteria for qualifying for financial assistance have been changed to encourage individual applications.
Hope that helps
17 Feb 2004 by Ray
Andy
Thanks for that, but I'm interested to know what you mean by 'Do you think that the advertising is free on the site?'
Does bigga, iog and the stri not charge advertisers? and how do you expect pitchcare to keep membership free if a fee isn't charged for advertising?
Ads
My comment was merely a reply to prince of thieves about Pitchcare not charging for their service, which may I reiterate is a very useful resource, and therefore not making any money. Just trying to get things into perspective.
18 Feb 2004 by Ray
Andy
Understood, just me being thick lol
Happy in our Work
Clive is happy in his work; so am I. Perhaps, if it hasn't already been done, a survey on our satisfaction levels at work might be in order? Then we'd have some facts to go on.
Always willing to make work for others!
Pay etc.
It seems to me that on this subject and others that have been aired on this site there alway seem to be some conflict between the surporter of the I.O.G and surporter of Pitchcare which in my opion is quite pointless as they both are working for the benifet of people like ourselves, Ipersonally think that Pitchcare is of more use to me but I wouldn't knock I.O.G and I dont think it right to do so. However if it is though that a independent body should look into wages and conditions then poeple who have strong feeling about it could join the TGWU who have a section which looks after land and rual works.
Absolutely right!!
Peter27 (implying there are 26 others!!)
You are absolutely right, if people are so bothered they should join a REAL union..........as for the others, half of what they say is bull, and the other half is...........I think you can work it out.
P etc
I think that Peter27 has hit the nail on the head. Do people want an official union, I used to be a member of the GMB, or a professional institute? From my experience the union was nearly £100 p.a. and not a lot of use, but there you go.
As for the last reply (Colin)......not very constructive.......difficult to take seriously and does nothing to help forward the profile of articulate professionals. In fact that sort of response has a negative effect on the discussion as a whole.
What did they say about sarcasm.......
23 Feb 2004 by Big D
Ask the members
After reading this thread, it is a matter of communication on both sides. Firstly a "confidential" questionaire should be arranged by ALL parties (IOG,BIGGA & PITCHCARE) Honest questions along with honest answers should be compiled. These findings should then act as a blueprint for the "industry" norm. There is NO need for trade unions, common scence, negotiations and a communication will see all parties create working harmony, which in the end is what everyone is striving for. As regards to advertising, if it was not for advertising how do you think any of us could communicate FOC on this site! We should support the advertisers where possible to enable us and our industry to carry on using tools like this website!.
Big D
wage fixing
David I feel you havn't read all the replys on this subject or you read them differant to me.I get the impresion from most of the replies that there is quite alot of dissatifaction form most and there would seem to be some sort of wage fixing going on although to date nobody has given any proof of it happening.However I feel that your idea of a confidential questionaire is quite a good one, although I would be intreset to know who you feel should carry it out.
23 Feb 2004 by Big D
wage fixing
Whatever the industry, people will always feel undervalued. To open the vacancies section of any journal it always put people on a downer when they see what others earn, even though it may not be the same industry or a like for like job. THAT'S LIFE.If nobody can prove wage fixing then dissatisfaction is something people will have to live with unless a confidential questionnaire with both greviencies and recommendations is brought about. However if the questionnaire produces results whereby people feel undervalued to the tune of ?% then an industry body should then put in place a minimum wage, with wage structures for different levels dependent on position. The one thing that must happen is honesty. Without that, if people filled in a questionnaire wrongly then inflated demands would result in nothing happening.
Big D
wage fixing
David, I note your comments and I have said I agree withyour idea of a questionaire however your still hav,t said who you feel should be responsible for carring the survey out ?.
24 Feb 2004 by Big D
wage fixing
All members of Bigga, IOG, Pitchcare etc should be allowed to "vote". All information could be collated by a firm of accountants who are independent. The findings could be published on all publications involved in the industry and a commitee set up after the results are published to ensure that change is brought about. Only one person per vote.
Big D
wage rates
Could I suggest one way forward.
A group /committee/or organisation , form a "working party" that best reflects those"on the ground". They need to draw up the questionaire based on the perceived problems in our industry.A draft consultation could be circulated to a few members of Pitchcare to fine tune it, before sending out to the workers at large.
There are specialist firms that process the replies, and they should have clear terms of reference on what is required of them by the working party.
Their findings will then be presented to the working party. I would have thought that some commercial organisation might sponsor this element.
All information treated in confidence to encourage rational accurate replies.
The working party then will have to start the slow grinding process of reducing and/or eliminating the problems that have been highlighted by the questionaires, starting with the problems that affect the greatest number of people.
Looking after sports pitches is a profession that requires an enormous amount of knowledge to deal with the various problems that arise to challenge us with regularity.
Speaking clearly and firmly as one cohesive professional body will go someway towards changing others perception of a groundsperson.
It seems that there are a few angry young people in our profession who see no correlation between wages and the private housing market. How many are residing in "tied accomodation" but dare not try to improve their lot without affecting their relationship with their superiors.Bullying is now a common tool of management in all walks of life and it takes a strong person to stand up and be counted knowing it could have a negative consequence on their family. Stress is not the reserve of the office manager , whilst the expectaationss of the users rise their views are only freely given when somethings not right.
As a whole the playing sufaces in G.B.are a credit to the profession taking into account the tight financial restraints placed upon us.
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