Wembley looked as good as I’ve seen a football pitch on Saturday.
Congratulations to the present Groundsman (who is he).
A fantastic job mate, not a divot in sight.
What turf system has been put in place to produce this great pitch? There was certainly enough press coverage on the old surface (correctly) how about some praise for this pitch.
Well done, a credit to English sports pitches.
As a City fan I thought that everything was perfect on Saturday. :-)
Don't talk to me about Contractors Wonka, I am one myself......
Turf looked good and well presented.
However as a chap from Stoke I think the width should have been brought in to just outside the 6 yard box. That way Delap could have tried to get a deflection into the net from a throw in. That was the only way Stoke were going to score on Saturday. Shame they didn't turn up as they have been on fire lately. S'pose the credit for that has to go to Man City as they totally outplayed them.
Skires
Mr Mad, it is apparently a Desso system now.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Desso is simply a whole lot of plastic. Desso did not manage to keep my clients at Estad Louis II or Santiago Bernabeu in playable state because soil sods were placed on top of USGA mixes. Mallinsons specified the rootzone at Wembley, did the construction and deserve a lot of credit.
Desso 20 cm every 2 cm what 100 x 85 +/- ( someone please set a standard value ) = 21,250,000 strands x 20 cm x 2 ( it is a loop ) Desso is 8500 kilometers of plastic strands, A LOT OF PLASTIC.
Desso has helped many groundsman stabilize and improve percolation but is not a cure all for folks that cannot specify a rootzone. We will never know if Desso would have saved the original specs of the New Wembley.
Current maintenance practices at Wembley have to be credited as well. I do not know who is maintaining Wembley now or what kind of traffic and events they have endured.
Let's all hope that the good conditions continue for all involved because the few years of suffering at Wembley was a real kick in the teeth for the sportsturf industry. There were a lot of glory seekers involved. There was not a lot of glory to be distributed and the blame probably never found the deserved parties.
Saludos MR
Mr Rogers - I think that saying "Desso is simply a whole lot of fibres" is like saying Rootzone is just dirty sand. True if you work out the length of fibres used on a pitch it will turn out to be a pretty big figure - but thats the same as working out the number of sand particles in a pitch - a pretty big number.
If you look at the condition and playing surfaces of all Desso pitches in the UK they are all excellent. True, the rootzone, construction, maintenance and use all need to be taken into account, but I truly believe that DESSO is the way forward.
We are all too keen to criticise a poor pitch but credit should be given when surfaces are kept to such high standards (hence pitch of the year awards)
Would DESSO have saved the original "New Wembley" - answers on a postcard please to.....My guess is YES it would.
19 May 2011 by Silly Ka Last edited 19 May 2011
And praise must also go to the team looking after The Wembley Pitch :
Grounds Mgr - Tony Stones and his team, David Moulds, Brendan Abbott and Karl Standley.
WELL DONE.
the way to keep wembly looking good is to take a leaf from arsenal, who have the same pitch.
use it once a fortnight.
that means 90 mins plus extra time and warm up,warm down ,once every TWENTY THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY MINUTES
now , who could not keep a pitch looking good.
the desso pitch may look good on the eye, but here is a quote from ex arsenal player lee dixon about arsensal's pitch
"its like playing on a carpark"
that means its like playing on concrete., which means more chance of injuries
the players know which pitches are the best, ask them .
i believe,there are currently 3 of these in the premier league .
Nigel, do all three of these have the same rootzone mix. or maybe just the same Fiber element.
My point is to document what gravel, pea gravel?? if choker layer is used, the last new constructions specs I have are from 2004 European Championships in Portugal, sand rootzone, etc and see what has worked well and what has not.
The UK is double the size of New Jersey. Information can be disseminated easily. You can visit any pitch and be back in same day. I remember Rufford's, Bathgate, whatever other quarries are available, the sieve analysis of the turf providers, compile info as to what mixes perform for drainage, stability, and compacting like cement issues.
Then think about usage, air and light flow, quantity of unusual events, budgets, and think about fiber implants. Is the pitch gong to need to be changed from big events, does the revenue generated from the big events justify the changing, etc etc etc???
Do all the pitches with DESSO in UK have same quarry sand?
Is there a standard gravel specification or does everybody use one close to home. Are D specifications considered carefully?
Thanks Silly Ka for mentioning the names of Wembley grounds staff, they deserve to be credited.
Off shortly to the land of curry ( 1st generation ). Michael
apologies if i confused you.
i was referring to the fibrelastic pitches.
enjoy the food, i am also an addict
Nigel are all Fiberelastic pitches created using the same rootzone mix? Is it only ONE SPECIFIED MIX, SAME QUARRY ie % 1mm-,5 mm % .5 - .25mm etc etc coarse medium fine very fine silt clay
HELLO
Are every DESSO pitch in the UK CONSTRUCTED WITH THE SAME ROOTZONE SPECS? SAME QUARRY
Thanks in advance also did not new original spec Wembley have some form of Fibrelastic ( maybe not latest version ) in it???
I am talking a Dehlicious curry
MR
19 May 2011 by Barry Pace Last edited 19 May 2011
Yes Fibrelastic is only available from one source, one sand, one good consistant quarry...
NO probably not on the Desso front... speak to Desso... Specs and different source sands can have quite a wide 'band' to fit in.
Fibresand concentrate is avialble for adding to a local rootzone 1'' to 5'' say for lower budgets/specs.
Fibrelastic apparently has better characteristics than the normal reinforced rootzones, meant to be kinder on joints.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Hey guys, whatever your views are on the Desso System for the viewer and I’m sure from the players point of view this pitch is what the game requires at a ‘’cup final stage’’ Smooth, well presented and divot-less.
I’m glad we now all know the identity of the present groundstaff as I’ve not seen much publicity about them. Keep it up guys it was a credit…
Michael
i am not an expert on the mix, i think Barrys answer above will suffice.
several leading players have said its the best pitch they have played on, because it isnt as hard as other pitches.
as i said in a previous post majority of pitches are too hard.
pat nevin stated in an interview that he would not be able to play the way he did on these modern pitches.
what he meant was they are so hard , he could not dribble .
have you noticed in recent years there arent many players in the british game who dribble with the ball.
it just kick it down the wing past the full back and the quickest gets the ball.
i believe Howard webb who who was the referee at the last world cup final said it was the best pitch he had ever officiated on.
one other important factor for pitch care.
the majority of the big clubs have the banks of lights which are important to help growth in the winter months, especially when we have a freak winter like the last one.
I do find it a shame that everyone in proffesional football is desperate to have the "latest" reinforced system, importing hundreds if not thousands of tonnes of rootzone, lower rootzone, drainage layers, state of the art irrigation and drainage, artificial light, under-soil heating.
We all seem to be saying, how easy can we make it for ourselves, spend alot of money, on a new pitch, play on it less, etc etc.
I know that they have superb qualities, but seems a shame no one wants to really test themselves and see how good they can make a natural soil-based pitch. Rather than how good a pitch they can buy.
Fiberelastic rootzone is produced by one company in the UK (North East). DESSO rootzones have the possibilty of being produced by any quarry/manufacturer, however, the rootzone used will be specified/tested by an experienced independent agronomist. The hardness of the surface can be "tweaked" using various rootzone blends. As far as specifications are concerned, yes, gravel size (inc depth of construction), lower rootzone sand (inc. depth of construction) and upper rootzone (inc.depth of construction) are all measured. D Values are also used to ensure bridging compatibility with all three layers.
Nathan Scarff - A natural soil based pitch would have a far more variable playing surface (hard when dry and softer when wet). Suffer from compaction at the surface. Loose grass cover in the "wear areas" and most importantly have inadequate infiltration/drainage rates leading to waterlogged pitch and cancelled fixtures - No fixture, no club revenue, no club. Not to mention other factors such as undersoil heating, etc..
Okay, now the New Wembley was originally built with Fibresand from Mansfield. Mansfield's latest is fibrelastic. Now, was the original New Wembley built with the same reliable consistent Mansfield sand that is currently being installed exclusively with the fibrelastic surfaces? So then the difference is only in the improved fibre reinforcement system.
Thanks Silly Na, very well written. The rootzone specs from DESSO were spot on, it was that DESSO were recommending when Estad Louis II in Monaco was done to put a soil sod on top of the USGA spec. The combination of the heat due to that the pitch is on top of offices and parking along with the vast difference in hydraulic conductivity of the USGA 90 / 10 peat rootzone and the soil sod meant they had created a perched water table at a 2 inch depth that boiled and rotted the turf during the summer. The Super Copa is played at end of August and while I was in Feyernoord to see their dual drainage, one for groundwater coming from below, and the second for the Dutch rainfall, I was informed of the horrible state of Estad Louis II the week before when Feyernoord played Real Madrid in the Estad Louis II.
Unfortunately DESSO had not learned their lesson in Monaco where I had been called in after the Supecopa in I think 2001 or 2002 to solve their percolation problem.
DESSO did exactly same method in Santiago Bernabeu in 2002 or 2003, they put a soil sod on top of a well engineered USGA spec rootzone. I was there with the two DESSO sewing machines and hence got the 2 centimeter spacing and 20 cm deep specs from them in action. One day I called the consultant to Santiago Bernabeu while I was in Austria with 39 degrees air temps. It was 42 degrees in Madrid. Soil temps were probably about 60 C. A year or 2 ago they reached 62 C in Valencia and all the poa packed up and died ( 60 % of 10 year old pitch ).
Hence, my original point about DESSO being just plastic was that the rootzone and if sod is used the sod need to be specified correctly. In these instances DESSO was not sufficient to provide a satisfactory playing surface. I would guess that the same was true in their Scandinavian installations as well during this time.
The Premiership has improved the quality of their pitches tremendously over the last 10 to 15 years. Having tools like lighting, underground heating, fibre reinforcement are positive options and should be employed in balance with quality expectations, usage, and finances.
In light of all this, it is still necessary and extremely important to get the full rootzone specifications right. In my mind, it is the most important.
Saludos Michael
Michael, dunno where you coming from... I would expect that any rootzone specified or delivered to a notable wuld be tested til the cows come home, too many reputations and PI's to risk else, let us not forget that the surfacing of the pitch is ALL important in it's success and you have to have a hell of a lot of luck and even more sweat and deisel to sort out potential issues with turfed pitches, even when it is the best turf on custom grown rootzones, as thick as you like or washed, tested as much as you want, it still has inherent issues and you only can undertsnad these when you have been there.
The latest was I think seeded (no dissing to turf boys but if you can you would) and it would be interesting to learn if any changes to the fixture 'load' has been adjusted since previous problems, this is all a pertinant as saying someone specified it right this time.
Nathan, it just is not practical in the majority of the UK with the climate variations and fixtures to fit in to be 'brave' enough to have a 'natural' pitch at the top level, it is not a case of 'fads' or keeping up with Jones's, the rootzone/reinforced/elasticated systems with stone carpets/heating/lights appear to give the groundsmen the best chances of producing a consistant surface throughout the season when the environment and climate is trying to make it a difficult as possible..
Thoughts anyways
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
how do they manage to make so strait stripes? :)
congrats from slo
damjan
my project :
http://www.youtube.com/user/dcetrtic#p/a/u/2/TGVwJvDWlPY
hard when dry, sort when wet... Thats purely down to management of the surface- Golf courses aim to produce the same speed surface on all their greens year round, football pitches is much the same in that your aiming to create a consistent surface season-long for "home advantage" which is slowly going out of the window with regards to pitches, most people on similar constructions, similar mowing heights etc.
How many groundsman out there would love a fibrelstic pitch but simply dont have the money? the day the "football bubble bursts", these pitches will be a serious financial burden.
Soil has good moisture and nutrients retention qualities, unlike the inert, free draining sand.
Im not saying i wouldnt have a fibrelastic or desso pitch, but before we all decide that the clubs £500,000 or more is best spent on a new pitch, lets see what we can do with what we have... The best groundsman in the world are surely up to the challenge, dont you think?
As an amateur who has to make the best of what he's got I find Nathan Scarff's comments somewhat thought provoking.
It isn't bad when you have the wherewithal to simply change the pitch if things aren't going right but what if you have a problem and you have to rectify it working with what you've got?
Discuss.
From the posh end of the room!!
If clubs have the money to provide the best facility that they can, why should it present a problem? The only people unhappy are those who can't afford to do it.
I think you've misunderstood, Vic.
I'm not, and I don't think Nathan is, suggesting that it's a "problem" nor that I/we are "unhappy" about it.
Simply, it's an interesting topic for discussion. For those who can replace their pitch - fine. For those who can't then what do you do? How do you overcome whatever problems you may have? Especially if money is tight.
From the posh end of the room!!
500K for a pitch or that for one player for a month...... Hhhmmm let me see if I can spot the VFM.... LOL
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
Mr A, there is no ideal, if they (owners/players/clubs) can't put money into the facilites and the surface then they need to put up and shut up, not whinge cos a game is called off or the pitch gets trashed.
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
15 Jun 2011 by Aladdin Last edited 15 Jun 2011
Quite right, Mr. Pace. There is no ideal.
The question is how you adapt to situations over which you have some degree of control.
Someone like David Boughtwood has as good a pitch as he's ever likely to have in his situation.
Lee Howe has a problem that he's attempting to resolve (that one will cost, admittedly)
Also, there was a thread some time ago about the soil food web and how, if you could promote that, it would save money.
We've had threads about unnecessary applications of fertiliser and various threads about compost tea.
What we're talking about, as far as I'm concerned, is the adaptability and ingenuity of groundsmen and greenkeepers. Amateur and professional alike.
From the posh end of the room!!
Amen to that....
Plastic.... it's The End I tell you... THE END!!!!
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