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thegrifter
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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Is a concrete wicket acceptable these days on the edge of the wicket?

anybody explain the pros and cons

cheers




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Minormorris64
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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What goes around, comes around

Only if its got an artificial strip on top of it methinks
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barry glynn
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

No it's not acceptable and totally unacceptable for senior use with a cricket ball.
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thegrifter
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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please explain why? barry

been asked to find about concrete wicket for tap ball cricket by my local asain communtity.



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Daniel Rouse
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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have you tryed running on a concret wicket in spikes mate??? It is bad enough if it is a artificial strip mate.
Would you dive on it to save a ball. Also damages the cricket ball big time when it is rolled or bounced on it.

The list is endless mate tbh
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barry glynn
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I presume you are talking about having it covered with a carpet of some description?
I have no idea what tap ball cricket is.
It would be dangerous even with a carpet on it but without a carpet it would be insane
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Daniel Rouse
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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tap ball cricket is basicly a tennis ball with one side tapped up so it swings barry.
that is my understanding anyway.
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thegrifter
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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tape ball is the asian method of teaching cricket and is evident in local leagues, street cricket approach to batting and bowling. awesome striking, no defence.

So concrete with matt, any suggestions on the spec & cost?

Have you not heard off kung foo cricket training?

how insane compared to hard aussie track barry?
good players might enjoy the challange for a change




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olaf
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs

Waste you money on something totally unsuitable if you like.
Instead of asking questions on here that you will totally ignore anyway why not look up the non turf installation specifications and guidance on the the ECB website. Nowhere will it recommned concrete bases.
So to re-iterate, the governing body, everyone involved in non turf pitch construction, groundsmen, players, providers of underlay and top mat et al don't recommend concrete as a base.
Clear enough?
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mackay
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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The best non turf pitches ever 'made' had a concrete base. This base then had a rubber shockpad layer (made by Dunlop I believe) and the topped with a carpet. They were virtually zero maintenance and rarely needed replacing (hence why the guys making the rubber mat stopped). You can still see evidence of this in many parks and schools where the concrete base remains.

Personally, I think that modern NTPs are daylight robbery and there are huge profit margins - not least because they need re-leveling every three or four years.

I know nothing of tape ball, but couldn't it be played on a 'normal' ecb approved system? But if not, my thoughts are that if there is a version of cricket that needs a particular type of surface, such as tape ball, then that section of the community and involvement in the sport should be encouraged as much as possible. I would have thought that you could make such a thing safe with the right covering - why not look into NTPs in other countries - I bet the Aussies have something like this that mirrors th lightenng quick turf decks over there.
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olaf
Posted 9 Aug 2011
dwayne
Posts: 334

Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs

Remember them well Andy, it was Recticel rubber matting used as a shockpad or straight onto the concrete for a "lively" pitch.
Agree that some of the approved systems are a rip off as well.
I've laid a number of NTP's both here and overseas using local road stone and its a lot cheaper than concrete.
I have a simple spec that anyone is welcome to and the task can be easily done with a group of willing workers and kit from a local hire company.
Would also service tape ball (great fun) and games played with other derivatives as well.
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tonybolton
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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Still raining

I know of lots of great cricketers who started their careers playing on concrete wickets, but in those days it was called the school playground.
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barry glynn
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Concrete edge going up to the edge of a square?
Go ahead.
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mackay
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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No worst than a wooden frame filled with gravel surely?..... but you're probably right: in these days of H&S hysteria the old concrete pitches are probably dug up at the same time as they are choppng the conker trees down.
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barry glynn
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Personally , I hate artificials anywhere near a square anyway. They look rubbish, always get infested with moss etc.
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tonybolton
Posted 9 Aug 2011
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Still raining

The fact is that coaches etc tend to call the artificial on the edge of the square 'the all weather' and love to play on it in whatever conditions, pity most clubs don't have an 'all weather' outfield.
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vid
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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Love to know where this huge profit margin is Andy - you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The reason concrete was dropped is it produces a totally unrealistic and dangerously high bounce totally unsuitable to senior players. As for your disparaging remarks I am well and truly insulted after all your job is just mowing a bit of tatty old grass whats the skill in that!!! (not)
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Pat Skires
Posted 10 Aug 2011 Last edited: 10 Aug 2011
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"The fact is that coaches etc tend to call the artificial on the edge of the square 'the all weather' and love to play on it in whatever conditions, pity most clubs don't have an 'all weather' outfield."

... and Tony ... all weather repaired ends ... because nothing helps my stress level more than when, in a wet week, I've just worked my bits off repairing used tracks and taking advantage of the rain ... and the pregnant mother's XI play all night in pouring rain on the 'all weather'.

Andy

I learned my cricket at my first club that had concrete strip nets with a thick hard rubber mat on them. I'm not even sure they were proper cricket mats? When it was dry they played very well. When it was wet they were the fastest pitches I've ever played on. Just to make it more interesting the club used to use those rock hard plastic half and half red/white balls. If you were lucky enough to face the 1st team openers ( who were probably only 75 mph ) it was like facing Malcolm Marshall. Oh do I remember the bruises but those nets served us well for many many years. We loved 'em.


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Pat Skires
Posted 10 Aug 2011 Last edited: 10 Aug 2011
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BTW ... we paid about 6.5 grand out for a properly laid artificial on teh edge of the square. Two day job ... it was dug out several inches and then hardcored and then the finer stuff on the top. Then the mat laid over that and nailed down with 4 inch galvanised. Guy who laid it told me the mat was about a grand ... the rest was labour and materials. Two years later the local mong squad had a bonfire on it on a length resulting in a big hole. Same company came in to replace the mat ( took him a couple of hours ) ... cost ... another 6.5 grand ... because apparently the mat is the majority of the cost. Hmmmmm.

To be honest no one ever wanted to play on it. All the junior managers right down to the dirty thoughts XI wanted to play on grass. Hey the grounders works for nowt so why not!

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Pat Skires
Posted 10 Aug 2011 Last edited: 10 Aug 2011
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Oh by the way ... re the tape ball etc.

I recently went to our local park that spent a small fortune having cricket nets installed. Proper artificial surfaces ... 4 lanes ... full netting.

... and no one was using them on a warm sunny day.

In the tennis courts next to the cricket nets there were about 15 Asian lads really enjoying themselves playing a game of smash a soft ball as hard as you can.

I suppose it's a bit like football. It's easy to throw a couple of coats down for goals. 1 football and you have a game going.

As lads we would always like getting padded up and going in the nets.

These days I see loads of young lads playing on the outfield with just a bat and an air ball. Playing bowling as fast as they can at each other off 10 yards and it's one hand one bounce ( the batsman has to defend and he's surrounded by close fielders who can catch him out if it bounces once if they catch it with one hand ). They also go in the nets with air ball and bat. The fielders stand a few yards away and the batsman smashes it as hard as. He can be caught one hand off the net. Not sure that passes ECB health and safety.

If it gets people playing cricket!
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mario
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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I know no boundaries.

I have two concrete nets alongside our "normal" synthetic surfaces as part of our practice area.

A few years ago I obtained new rubber mats which are still in use and as good as the day they were purchased. Yes....the ball does ping off them at a fair rate, which is fine for the experienced cricketers, but I've put a Flicx mat under the other (well the're useful for something!) and this appears to slow down the ball for the less experienced or junior players.

But I'd prefer not to have a concrete installation on my outfield!
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thegrifter
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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some great feed back, would love to have the basic specs to install of the wicket.

any suppliers of the lively rubber mat outy there

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Barry Big Shot
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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Once a muppet.....................

Pat, you and I have far too much in common my friend.
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Barry Pace
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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'Where the future is being made today'

Concrete is too lively for most level of cricket, especially if the carpet or shock are worn or aged, but with the right shockpad beneath a Wilton they can still be very useable, we just relaid 4 netted strips on the Isle of Man, 2 concrete, 2 Dynamic, bounce difference was negligable.. BUT client chose the best quality carpet and shock we could get.
had another job few years ago where we relaid 8 strips, some carpets replaced, some reused, half the cricket masters complained they were too low, half complained they were too lively..... that told me they were just right.
No surface is maintenance free, even a carpark needs sweeping now and again, if you have moss get some bloomin moss killer LOL
£1k does not buy you a decent carpet at 30m by 2.7m, it will give you a Budget Carpet, a decent Shockpad would be min £700.00.. a Wilton will cost over £3k before it is delivered, but when you compare the others the difference is evident, wether it is worth 3 times as much is debateable but the manufacturers have to feed the kids eh.....
Vid.... breath in.... breath out ...lol
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Barry Pace
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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'Where the future is being made today'

AND as Vid says the costs you get to install properly mean you won't be buying a new motor after installing a couple, it is a competetive world for some.....mind you if you slash them in like some seem to do then probably worth a Beemer after a dozen or so.....
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thegrifter
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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Fantastic post Barry

Seen some installs specs on the internet, quotes100mm in depth for concete?
If used refinforced steel mesh, would 50mm be enough, if laid on to well prepared ground, so example a path? 25 mm type 1, rolled

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Barry Big Shot
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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Once a muppet.....................

What's the matter with you blokes, we used to play a club on the outskirts of Oxford. Coconut mat over concrete, away you go, bit spiky if it was wet but always played okay. Every player demands Lord's type grounds now.
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barry glynn
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Just don't like them on the square. No one ever uses them anyway as someone else said.
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Minormorris64
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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What goes around, comes around

All weather strip on the edge of our square = Club finding new groundsman
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 10 Aug 2011
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I've got two artificials either side of a square of 12 decks. We have 4 junior teams, 2 senior teams, play some Sunday friendlies and have a mid week 20/20 side from April to mid August plus ground hire matches. All matches at every age group are played on grass which is not always the case locally. The ground is in use every day until 20th July and 4 times a week until the end of the season. In our climate there would be no nets most weeks unless we had the plastic. In the evenings both cages are in action over the plastic several evenings a week unless there is a game on.

Sean, 50mm concrete is too thin, even with steel mesh, the soil will lift in freezing conditions cracking it. I'd say 100mm is the minimum with 1 or 2 layers of mesh separated with spacers, cast in four slabs with expansion joints (careful where you put them). Lay onto about 75mm of 20mm gravel which has been heavily compacted.

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mackay
Posted 10 Aug 2011 Last edited: 10 Aug 2011
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Mark - come on - comments not intended to be disparaging I assure you, but come on, if I'm so wrong then how about explaining the costs involved to back up your comments?

I make the material costs for a 'typical' dynamic base NTP at around £5000 max (if you're buying one-off small quantities). Maybe I'm way out though.......

My grass is tatty it's true! x
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Mike
Posted 10 Aug 2011 Last edited: 10 Aug 2011
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Image0028
These would be the ones that Mr Pace refers to (during construction phase) - the near two are refurbed concrete bases, with the bottom 2 being dynamic bases - as Barry suggests, difference is negligble. I would go as far to say the concrete base ones actually play better than some of the other ntp's that I have seen installed over here..

Feedback from teachers is that each bay plays very well - 40 plus kids using them every lunch time and after school practice, cdo also suggests that they play very well, as do many local club players who I know.

For info, they were originally concrete with cheap carpet laid straight over it, and that was extremely lively! I have seen these nets played on before and after (as I went to school there), and can see a marked difference.

Mike

Added - hope you don't mind me posting pics, Barry.
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thegrifter
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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Thanks mike

I have compared the costs between the two systems and concrete base with mat & install can be done for about £3000. With funding streams exhausts these days it seems to be a viable solution for schools and local authorities to reintroduce cricket to the community. ECB approved systems are very expensive and poorly installed in my expierence locally, I feel it is necessary to make cricket affordable so cricket in the community is accessible to all.
Why are the costs so high in the first place? Reading some of the comments in this thread, I'm understanding why? Everyone has had a slice of he pie and now the money has dried up, the ecb approved system seem vastly overated compared to the cost does not reflect good value.
If you had a ECB system installed paying for it your self average price say £6000, @ £50 a match it would take 120 matches over 4 years to pay for it's self and by this time it will need doing again. At least with a concrete base you could replace the mat at reasonable cost every couple of years.
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barry glynn
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Just be very careful not just to lay solid concrete with a carpet slapped on top of it. If a cricket ball is used on it, the bounce will be too steep. And before anyone says" it were alright in my day", I agree but nowadays you could get sued
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vid
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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Ok Andy seeing as I am about to go completely broke. I allow 12 days for the average 2 bay completely infilled construction 26m X 8m - 24 man days + 3 for the visits estimate and general admin to do it. I reckon I'm worth 30,000 a year and my experienced assistant 20,000 average 25,000 = £100/day + taxes employers tax corporation tax @£10/man per day + staying away and food £50 / day or @ £25/day if travelling £35/day ish. £145/day, run in 15% for bad weather/illness and break down total - 100 +10+35 +22 (15%ish)+£167/day X27 = £4509.

Carpet cost 1 extra rebound shockpad (no names!) 4mm shockpads under all others with a tufted 14mm infill carpet, batting ends 11m bowling ends 8m @105m of infill to me (2010 price) £6304.60.

Aggregate 20T of hard porous (special granite mix) and 15 T Sharp angular stone =£1780

Cage and netting 18.3m x 7.32m = £2451.40

Machinery hire and fuel - 3.5t digger and dumper, compactor plate, auger, good turfcutter = £1270

Sundries concrete for the cage, 200m rope for the netting cable ties 150mm galvanised nails 1x skip for plastic arisings etc £455

total costs of construction 455 + 1270 + 2451.40 + 1780 + 6304.60 + 4509 = £16,770.

The particular job I am quoting from needed 70t of soil removing to level the site returfing the runups and a 35m catchment trench digging - 7 man days at a further cost of
£1840. Total cost £18,631. I would love to charge 20% to run the business ie quiet time in winter, bonus for my staff, bookkeepers accountants, running costs etc but in order to compete and stay within the expected price band I charged just short of £20,000 + Vat thats just 6.5%. That is a totally unmamageable profit margin and I am now seeking other work.I have to compete with companies that do the same job in less than 10 man working days using materials that are just not up to the job otherwise we wouldnt get the work. I am very proud of my constructions but I look at others and wonder how they have the cheek to ask for their money.

I havent added a penny to basic prices, so the 6.5% is the total business profit on a £20000 project at 2010 prices. Since then everything has increased.

There are inferior products which at a distance look the same but are not. Substantial savings can be made in carpets, cages, aggregates and as I have pointed out labour and general care/standards.

Ps - Andy, you picked a bad day to pick on my profession - no bad feeling mate. Now youve challenged me I have given you the absolute bare facts - you know me well enough to know I'm not pulling a fast one. A match pitch wilton carpet, shock pad and needle punch geotextile will cost me now @ £3900 from my Licence holder. Add in 6 man days turf cutter digger dumper and aggregate and all of a sudden £6500 is a very very good price indeed.
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Mike
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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Sean - from my limited experience, a few pointers

There are inferior products out there (some even ecb approved) - beware

There are inferior contractors out there (I can vouch for one of the above, and would put my trust in another of the above) - again, be very wary of over the top sales pitches, which promise the earth and deliver sweet fa...

Concrete - it's doable, but be very wary - do it on the cheap, with inferior materials and you will pay the price. As Barry noted above, a school near to me opted to have their concrete surfaces refurbed - I took an active role in that job as the teachers are very good friends of mine - they specified the very best materials available, got them installed and have a very good end product. If you are going on concrete, you must have the best shockpad and most durable carpet (which come at a not insignificant cost) to get any sort of result, anything less and you will have problems.

I would add that any advice that I am giving is from an end users point of view who foot's the bill for things like this, and not someone who is giving you misleading information in the hope of selling you something - I say this as I would imagine that you have had a pm or two with offers from certain corners, or may do in the near future...

Mike
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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Vid

With you all the way on your costings. If your special granite mix (Anglesey?) has to be taken a distance then added costs. Your labour and awayday expenses seem cheap but your machinery hire quite expensive but then again the NW is cheap for that and you will have to pay extra for the drop and collect of plant I guess. I'm assuming the 70 t spoil could be dropped on site, otherwise it would be 10-12 skips at 160 each =1600 min to take off site.

Your estimate seems spot on if not a bargain. Hope the work keeps coming in ! You deserve it at that price and spec.
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mackay
Posted 11 Aug 2011
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Posts: 1929

Blimey Mark, I'm not having a pop at you, and as you say, no hard feelings at all - and non intended I assure you. I thought I was being very generous with my etimate but if you use such expensive carpet (and those aggrigates aren't cheap are they) then I won't argue with you. This is certainly not my area of particular expertise. However, there are a lot of guys installing these things who's costs are about half of what you have outlined, hence the large profit margin comment.

I doubt an open discussion on the cost of NTPs will put anyone out of business so sleep safe. There will always be a huge need for them and as much as I dislike NTPs personally (and I'd say that at least half of the dynamic base NTPs I've seen are utter crap) they are a great solution for many grounds.

Far better kids learn their trade on a good NTP than on poor turf.

There are some very good NTP systems/installers out there but for every good one there are an equal number of rubbish ones (and time and time again Clubs get shafted). If a more managable and realiable (and cheaper) surface is avaliable as an option to a club then why not have that option?

I know I'm out of date in this opinion, but the concrete bases do have/had a following and are not at the mercy of ground heave/swell etc etc in the same way that a 'modern' NTP can be, are not at the mercy of weeds, the grass down the sides pushing the mat in etc. Compare the NTPs at my own ground which were installed at huge cost and then never used by the Pros because of the rubbish and occasionally lethal bounce (despite the two shock pads and apparent 'quality' on the system and the subsequent two re-levelings etc etc).
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vid
Posted 12 Aug 2011
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Thanks Andy - as I said a bad day. I think you are probably slightly put off by that rather poor job at Hove and the worst I have ever had to work on at Blackstone. I hope I am not identified with the workmanship there - I did my best to get it half decent but the aggregates and base are totally wrong and the workmanship awful. As for the practise facility its a total embarrassment to the trade and to think its at an academy ground!!! I wouldnt be surprised if you dont know its there its so overgrown.

The guy I do these under licence for is the best around as his quality and quality control are way ahead of all but one other installer and he helped set them up before he went off on his own. However he is not a direct distributor so there is an extra cut. For me there is neither enough work or enough margin, one or the other I could just cope with but both together just dont work and I think I will be packing it in soon as at 54 I find days of raking or being on my knees too much now. It will be a case of whether I can keep it going but with me mostly doing something else.

I have a chance of getting involved with that business I keep trying to interest you and Brian in - its on a good strong footing now and I am hoping to find a more secure line of work with them. I am absolutely sick to death of seeing people I have trained land better paid prestigious and secure positions. Even my staff earn more than me at times. Crikey just for once I need a break!!
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mackay
Posted 12 Aug 2011
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No, certainly don't identify you with the poor work on either of those grounds! It's not just those though, I have worked or played on (evening league cricket) quite a few qrounds that have had new NTPs in the last decade or so and they haven't been very good. Some have, but many haven't.

Book a holiday, I insist! (I'm going back to civilisation for a week next week, well the NW anyway).
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