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Peter Robinson
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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Anybody else used this product, I applied it to the square and outfield a fortnight ago and it seems to have had little or no effect. I've always used Ringer in the past with excellent results
Peter
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Ken Barber
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

It is the same active ingredient. Maybe the soil moisture is not high enough? Did you add some wetting agent to get it to the target area?
KB
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barry glynn
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I used it last year on my square and around the perimeter of the square to try and create a sort of ring fence from the outfield to the square. It did nothing and is very expensive. It certainly was not dry when I put it on.
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Chris Thornton
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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He not busy being born is busy dying!!

Used some today Peter. Did it as B G said so will let you know how it does. I have nothing but praise for Caste Off and have used it loads so can't really understand what the problem is at your place mate.
Spoke today about scarifier and it should be at Woodhill late next week so will bring it to you the Monday after. That'll sort your worm casts Peter!!!!!!!!!!!
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 31 Aug 2011 Last edited: 31 Aug 2011
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Peter, congrats on Div 1 title, even if they don't say thank you. Similar emotions to you with sheets and the waterhog !

Caste Off and Ringer are the same thing, the same concentration of Carbendazim in a solution carrier marketed by different companies. Neither are 'killers' simply deterrants, I know because I've been into this in EU legislation detail. Both are technically equally effective but neither kill 100%. Personally I am coming round to the viewpoint that the pH of the solution is the irritant and not the chemical efficacy. I am trialling mustard powder and a mustard oil emulsion next week if I have the time.

From the other thread today, I posted about worms as well. We are genuinely overrun with them too. I don't like spraying at this time of year because I use the worm holes as additional drainage in the winter. I had to spray the square twice a few weeks ago but it has only had partial success. I didn't spray the junior square. The outfield and junior square have between 5-8 casts per square foot, the sprayed square about 0.2 -1 per square foot so my Ringer has obviously had a significant effect. I copied Barry's advice from last years postings and ring fenced the square with more spray. He is right and credit to him, the middle portions are pretty cast free and the concentrations are around the wicket ends and sides of the square.

My personal feeling is that the mild, damp humid conditions have promoted a big 'hatch' of young worms in the last week or so given by the thin thread like nature of the casts if you look at them carefully. It's not just you and me locally, Chilly said he sprayed 3 times this month and Frank at Bare CC is targetting the casts individually on the tracks he's bringing into play. I am dragmatting the square rather than swishing and it is really the best way in this weather. Bring me Sunshine etc etc.

Chris, I'm collecting the m/c from Netherfield on the 20th after it's been up to Shap. Looking forward to it after Hartley's flail !

Eddy
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barry glynn
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I tried everything last winter. I swished because I had tried dragmatting the year before and that just squashed them and spread them more.
But swishing produced similar results.
I might try a more concentrated mix and try the ring fence again
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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Why worry after season end and renovation Barry? The worms are aerating, providing drainage and mixing anyones Kaloam replacement with other base material and avoiding layering :-). The regular rainfall melts the casts back in and cleans the swished or dragmatted sward quickly.

Worms really worry me from Feb to perhaps early April at the moment . If I wanted to eliminate a particular set of casts it would be before the first touch of the cylinder mower on the square (blade inoperative) in late Feb/early March. Bump bump bump, pennies everywhere otherwise.
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barry glynn
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Because they were that bad, I want to hit them twice. Plus I've never so many on my ground in August!
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Zippy
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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I have heard before that worms don't like mustard and have never been impressed with carbendazim based products given the price so might try it too I can remember 15+ years ago when the square was treated with Twister (Carbyll active ingredient) - now that most definitely sorted the worms out.
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Peter Robinson
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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Don't know where you have got the Division 1 title from Eddie, Carnforth have never won the Northern League and I don't believe they ever will. As regards worm casts on the square, I don't think they should ever be there. Personally, I cut the square with a cylinder mower all year round and casts would obviously cause smearing resulting in bare patches. Also, I am concerned that the soil brought to the top by casting worms could be the indigenous soil from underneath the loam layer, thereby contaminating the surface area with unwanted material. It would be interesting to hear other people's opinions on this theory.
Peter
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tonybolton
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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Still raining

Worm casts are an absolute no no on the square or elswhere for that matter, they create an ideal seed bed for airborne unwanted grasses and seeds. Carbenazim based product April and October.
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GRG
Posted 31 Aug 2011
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As above two posts except i spray end of Feb/early March, before any rolling begins and again usually early November due to being on holiday end of October.
Never have a problem on the square or practice area's. They have come back in the outfield, but as some others have mentioned very small casts and not been a problem as yet. A couple of dry days soon sees them go again.
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 31 Aug 2011 Last edited: 31 Aug 2011
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Peter, sincere apologies, I thought you were still at Warton. I shut up on this matter.

As to wormcasts on the square then my opinions and everyone else's differ. If anyone wants to see the million and a half casts on my field, the same number on the two adjoining fields or anywhere else locally they're welcome. We don't have a budget or machinery to spray like this. As I've posted before, wet where we are is not wet in other people's books. Tony, if I were using Carbendazim to eliminate wormcasts on the square or outfield I would be spraying intensively on a twice monthly basis from from Feb to late May then mid August to late October. It's a non starter. I have to make compromises and time my dragmatting to allow rain to clean the sward. As to avoiding a weed seedbed on every penny then I agree, I just have to go down on my knees and cut the bu**ers out.

Peter, never read any science on soil mixing and casting-worm depth but if you have any organics in the depth of your square a worm can bring up you have problems. The worms are depositing what they've eaten from the surface and pulled down to digest. That's why they're on the surface in the night feeding. Foodstuffs are leaves, loose grass and wind blown clippings from the box of which there are masses on a windy day regardless how close you keep the box to the blades and the concave adjusted.
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vid
Posted 1 Sep 2011 Last edited: 1 Sep 2011
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Eddy, this has been a subject of interest every year and I can tell you there is plenty of technical information on the subject that I have read up on (Iam not going to find the references yet again!!). Carbendazim is a worm killer (lumbricide means worm KILLER), it is absolutely not a deterrant as its effectiveness is very short lived. It works on 2 fronts and 2 fronts only - 1. by being ingested by the worm feeding on contaminated dead organic matter mostly surface leaf litter. 2. by direct contact through the worms skin as it feeds on the surface.

It will only kill surface feeding worms. Wetting agent will not significantly improve its efficacy as once in the surface it will not be concentrated enough below ground to affect the worms - this is why it only kills surface feeding/casting worms, most notably the common Lumbricus Terrestris. The wetting agent may however very slightly increase the penetration and contamination of the leaf matter.

Because it is only effective for a matter of hours in some cases it is very important to get the conditions right. In dry conditions especially when there is no dew the worms will not feed freely. When there has been rain and the surface is damp or there is a period of heavy dews the worms will feed avidly, spray late in the day if you can so that the spray is at its most effective when the worms come out. Spray early in the morning and by the evening the carbendazim may be ineffective. Worms are killed fairly immediately and die back in their burrows. So if you brush the casts off after a couple of nights you will see very quickly if it has worked or not.

BTW Carbaryl was banned quite a few years ago now I believe
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Vid, hi, I think you and I were discussing this in the early spring. Although Carbendazim is sold and nominally licenced as a lumbricide and not lumbrifuge, there is little hard evidence that it is an efficacious killer. You have to delve very deep into the eu documents to find that. pH neutral buffered Carbendazim unlike the lower pH commercially available product, didn't appear particularly effective at all. In addition it is erroneously licenced as a NEMATICIDE not LUMBRICIDE in the official documents because a civil servant does not know the difference between nematode (flat) worms and earthworms. To him they're all worms. Technically if you are being very picky Carbendazim is not licenced as a casting worm killer because of a paperwork error.
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jlawrence
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

Carb needs to be applied in the correct conditions in order to be effective, or at least in my experience it does.
When I was at Plymouth I never used carb but I then only had one square and plenty of time to spread casts around before they became a problem.
Here I simply don't have the time for that, so I spray. If done in the right conditions it works.
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Ken Barber
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

I do not believe that carbendazim is a true lumbricide (killer), since I have small pockets of worms on my greens and they always re-appear after so many months. It is true that the chemical is affected by the pH of your spray water.

A low pH i.e. below neutral will see far better results with this chemical, which is why I add a little wetting agent….. One It lowers the pH and two it gets the chemical into the leaf litter!
KB
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Barry Big Shot
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Once a muppet.....................

Used some Caste Off a couple of days ago, had to put it down in a watering can as powered sprayer is playing up. No casts since.
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vid
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Hi Ken, its a long time since I posted the references but there are several pieces of work on carbendazim and that is where I get my position on it from. Its half life is fairly short depending on ph (which way I cant remember so I havent said..... memory knackered!) both ingesting and absorption through the skin is its modus operandi and it kills the worm quickly. If it doesnt kill them it hasnt worked, and there is next to no residual effect, the report gave the number and species of worm killed it would appear there was little or no partial kill in these trials (I read 2 separate reports - one specifically on worms in turf and the other under apple orchards where the fungicide used on the fruit was showing to have dramatic effects on casting worms). Reinfection occurs through eggs hatching deep inside the burrow and juveniles can quickly reinvade the area treated. Killing this reinfection off early before they mature will ensure many years worm free, especially if a good band around the square has been sprayed as well, as worms do not travel very far in high populations reportedly. I used to spray the hockey 'ds' about 2m either side of the line and these would take several years to reinfest with worms.
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Leaving aside its killing properties, that's a really good point Vid. All my worms from the last 2 weeks have fine thin casts which implies small thin worms, ie new hatch ?? . I need to look up the life cycle of casting worms to find out more. In the meantime the sun is shining for the first time in about a week so I'm off to mow.
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Ken Barber
Posted 1 Sep 2011 Last edited: 1 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

Hi Vid, The half life is reduced with a higher pH. I often thought whether re-infestation is down to young hatchlngs and plan to spot treat my greens two or three times more before the end of October, to see if I can totally eradicate the problem.

I still have my doubts as to whether they are next generation worms, since when the casts re-appear, they vary in size and some are obviously adult worms.

I think we should be more concerned about the recent foreign invader, the Microscolex phosphoreous! Why it should have such a name, I don’t know. But the problem with this tiny invader is that it casts during the day, so is a pain on surfaces such as bowling greens and golf greens, because it affects ball roll. Apparently carbendazime won’t touch it, which is why I was looking for an alternative such as garlic oil. I have this new invader on two greens now and its spreading across the green very quickly. Maybe you are being invaded by the same little critter Eddy?

KB
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Ken, I picked up several of the casts this afternoon on the outfield and examined them carefully. They are different to what I have seen before. The casts didn't crumble but appeared to contain partly digested material which made the strands fibrous rather than genuinely crumbly. Each of the twisted strands of the cast seemed to contain a partly digested stalk of grass. The strands of the cast are much finer and form a more rubbery twisted cone of casting. The cast diameter I would estimate as 2-3mm max and the worm hole a more normal 4-6mm. Something new for me.
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GRG
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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About three, may be four years ago i attended a short seminar on worms. I left that seminar with this understanding.
There are only three, may be four casting species. Carbendizum did kill casting worms. Apparently, prior to the casting worm coming up to the surface, it had either given birth to young or laid its eggs, hence you kill one at the surface but there has been a whole army left behind for you to fight another day. Another apparent is, that by killing worms in the autumn is getting them in there mating season, so there is a chance that the army below will not grow in great numbers, if you do not get them then, the chance of that army swelling big time is a big one.
I have been spraying club cricket squares for many many years now and i can honestly say that treating squares twice a year has meant that worms and there casts have never been a problem ever.
On outfields the casts often come and go along with summer wet spells but they do appear more readily than in the squares, suggesting to me that hard clay soils are not the favourite enviroment for worms either, so more easily controlled.
Have found though, that if the outfield is sprayed at the times i suggest in a previous post, the few casts that i do encounter at any time, very rarely are or become, a problem.
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 1 Sep 2011
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Interesting Grassman, thank you. I think I need to attend a course. In the meantime plus I'm going to spend the winter reading up on casting worms. What we have this autumn in terms of cast is very different to previous years.
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Ken Barber
Posted 2 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

I applied Caste Off two days ago and seeing less castings already! whether it is down to the wetter reducing the spray water pH, moist soil conditions or the heavy dews we are seeing at the moment...... maybe a combo of all three!

KB
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jlawrence
Posted 2 Sep 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

I attended the same seminar as Grassman and came away with the same understanding.
However, it wasn't proved to my satisfaction that it killed worms. Yes, after application the worms weren't there, but neither were all the dead ones. To my mind that points to carb making the worms leave rather than killing them.
Interestingly at the same harrogate week I attended a seminar where they were actively looking to increase worm populations. They found that worms can travel incredible distances (>150m) in order to get to food sources or avoid something that irritates them.
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vid
Posted 3 Sep 2011
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Jon I'm afraid you are just plain wrong. It kills them. Chlordane was a total worm killer and worked under the surface the worms in this case were often expressed onto the surface and died there and as a result there tended to be a massacre of birds as well. Because carbendazim is absorbed on the surface the worm has no reason to leave its burrow and dies there. I have watched worms feeding at night when walking the dog with a powerful torch - they keep a part of their body in their burrow so that they can get away quickly - I have yet to see one actually fully on the surface away from its refuge!! I dont doubt that they can travel but why would they on a piece of prepared turf where there is plenty of food. The carbendazim kills worms, it is not an irritant so they would find no reason to move, the kill was under test in all of the research articles I have read - not a single worm was found with its bags packed and a bus ticket in hand!
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tonybolton
Posted 3 Sep 2011
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Still raining

Is it right to lay out pesticide ridden worms for our unsuspecting native birds to ingest?
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GRG
Posted 3 Sep 2011
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Probably not tb, but i have yet to see a dead worm on the surface. I guess they taste what is on offer and dive for cover, never to be seen again.
I feed offending food to rats, the food is often taken, do i see dead rats? very rarely.
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vid
Posted 4 Sep 2011
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of course its not right Tony I stopped using it before it was banned - once was enough I had no idea the carnage it would cause then. As Gordon says I have never sen a dead worm on the surface after spraying with Carbendazim and it is not known to poison birds in my experience anyhow - totally different and I wonder what you are insinuating!
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jontaylor
Posted 4 Sep 2011
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The ciderman rolls

Carbendazim is used as the positive control in tests for the toxicity of chemicals to earthworms. Those tests have to be extensively validated before they are accepted as recognised norms and so I suspect that carbendazim was chosen as the positive control precisely because it is very effective at killing worms.
The casting worms on my ground do leave their holes and after treatment with carb a good proportion of them die on the surface. The day after treatment I expect to find dozens of dead worms on the surface.
After treatment with carb you can see that worms can travel several metres each night - the carb increases their bodily excretions and I can often see a trail similar to that which a slug would leave showing where they have crept before dieing.
Agree with Gordon - treatment twice a year is usually enough on the square. The pH of my square is over 8.
Perhaps different places have different worms.......
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jlawrence
Posted 5 Sep 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

If it kills 'em that's fine with me. All that matters is that it works - if applied in the right conditions.
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Posted 6 Sep 2011

This message has been removed by a moderator, because it broke our Terms & Conditions.

 
andy dixon
Posted 7 Sep 2011
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In bowling, I used to get my players to hit any worms they see on the head with a rolled-up newspaper. It takes a while but eventually they can be trained to stay underground.
Cricket is more difficult. You need to train them to put their head up when the opposition is bowling and 'head-butt' the ball in the direction of the batter.
Also, dose the square with 5Kg of asprin after the games or they suffer bad headaches.
Never use paracetemol as the birds will eat the worms (The Parrots Ate Em All)
I suspect a nearby compost heap may help too, or mabe I just have a good scents of humous?
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barry glynn
Posted 7 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Here's a thought. Seeing as how killing the worms seems to offend some people.
If talking to plants works, why not try and reason with thecworms?
Have a chat with along the lines of" Look chaps, let's compromise here, I'm a reasonable man. If you agree only to appear on the edges of the outfield and not the square, I'll promise not to spray you with anything".
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barry glynn
Posted 7 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Whole bl0ody ground including some of the square riddled with the little bleeders this morning after the monsoon yesterday.
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andy dixon
Posted 8 Sep 2011
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In all seriousness, I think there is a fine-line between controlling worms with chemicals and cultural methods (switching and brushing when dry enough). Remember the advantages of worms (Aeration, increasing soil nutrients at depth), all of which encourage deep-rooting.
Also note that they are coming to the surface for 1 reason. Oxygen. Unfortunately, this weather has hit us now but the season is nearly over. Why worry now? A yard-broom will take it off if needed. In the off-season, more aeration may help. Maybe try a Sarrel roller?
i used to use Carbendazim as a Fungicide, but only IF I had to. I took the lumbricide effect as an added bonus at the time.
Think I used to use a mascot-based product ('Systemic' I think, then 'Ringer') Both of which worked 4-6 times better with the addition of an adjuvent (Mascot Sward) which effectively holds the product in the surface of the profile and stops it washing away, reducing pollution and dramatically reducing frequency of applications.
However, over the years, I have stopped using any lumbricides. On cricket squares, I have preferred to put up with the odd cast (power-brushing being part of my prep). In spring, at the first sign of them drying enough to not smear, I have always brushed the whole square.
In golf and bowling, I prefer to 'Switch' the greens in the morning.
As for pesticides, a weed is there for a reason. It literally tells you what you are doing wrong (Clover or Yarrow=Low nitrogen, Mouse-eared chickweed=acid soil, Moss=depends on which type) etc
I guess what I am trying to say it's best to sort out the problem before resorting to chemicals. The problem will return when the chemicals are depleted.
Sometimes I think there needs to be more thought on what is going on under the surface and less to what is going on on top.
I think my greatest achievement was looking after a bowling green for 5 years and in the last 3 it didn't have one single weed or spot of moss, without resorting to chemicals.
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barry glynn
Posted 8 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

I find that switching on my square simply just smears them mainly because when they appear, it is always too wet really.
You can't cut the square when they are there because that smears them.
I tried brushing, swishing, none to any useful effect.
I've never seen so many around in August and now early September because of the damp weather.
Problem I find is that the pitches on the edge of the square are the worst for two reasons. One is that they are nearest the outfield which is riddled with them and two, that these are pitched cultivated from the the outfield but not re laid properly.
I've found it impossible to get rid of the castes on these pitches without smearing. And that tends to leave small bare patches.
I'm going to try caste off again. Last year I put in on with a sprinkling can, this year going to try spraying it with my knapsack.
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Ken Barber
Posted 8 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

Andy,
I considered not posting a response until I saw you were including golf and bowling greens and not just cricket, but to say ....."Also note that they are coming to the surface for 1 reason. Oxygen". Is a bit of a loose statement......Sorry mate! But my greens are 80% sand, aerated to 100mm every 3 weeks and sarrel rolled on a weekly basis. I have pockets of worm infestation, nothing major, but the worms come to the surface to cast their waste or to feed on organic matter not to breathe...... Unless of course, your grass is under water or growing rice?

I have the odd clover patch the size of a tea cup; I also get mouse-ear, plantain and dandelion seedlings popping up. But the clover is not due to low nitrogen and my pH is 7’ish so not acidic. Managing worm problems is no different than any other pest or disease related problem, IPM (Integrated Pest Management) is an effective and environmentally sensitive approach to pest management that relies on a combination of common-sense practices. IPM programs use current, comprehensive information on the life cycles of pests and their interaction with the environment. This information, in combination with available pest control methods, is used to manage pest damage by the most economical means, and with the least possible hazard to people, property, and the environment.

I spot treated my worms with a knapsack because I considered the IPM approach, and believed it was my best option and cheapest. It may have taken me 5 hours to spray all my greens but I used less than one litre of carbendazime and very few casts showing on my greens today.
KB
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 12 Sep 2011
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Right, after an invasion of at least 1,500,000 wormcasts on my field (no joke) I'm coming forward with some comments tomorrow on Carbendazim (Ringer, Caste Off etc). I'm going to try and post them before 5pm tomorrow. As the cricket season draws to a close I'd like to put forward my thoughts....and I believe it's regional and climatalogical. I'd love to know what other people think afterwards.
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barry glynn
Posted 12 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Be very interested Eddy. They are certainly in abundance at my place.
Tempted to put some caste off on now but as I'm doing the renovation in ten days, I thought it best to wait till later.
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Tricky dicky
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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Probably a bit dry, however consider using a wetting agent and plenty of water, say 500-1000l ha, do not make the mistake of applying it in the rain thinking it will wash it in, it wont!
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barry glynn
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Bit dry! Don't know where you are mate.
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 13 Sep 2011 Last edited: 13 Sep 2011
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In the past few weeks many of us have been subjected to unusual amounts of rainfall, and as the daylength shortens, the soil is not drying out much if at all.

Similarly, those who seem to have been wettest are remarking on the number of casts and also questioning how effective carbendazim is.

I have 'had' to spray with Ringer twice, something that has had some but not the desired effect. My neighbours (we are 3 adjoining grounds) have both sprayed, in one case 3 or even 4 times, yet the casts return immediately.

I will concede where the spraying has been concentrated, casts are reduced but not eliminated.

The evidence from some science is that carbendazim is a potent killer. Other research contradicts this when used at the recommended concentration. The science that labels it as poisonous to worms uses the standard method of immersing a worm in a solution of carb. for 1 minute then seeing it it dies. To me that test does not replicate what happens in nature as the spray is further diluted many times over when applied in or just before rainfall. If you dunked me into a bath of carbendazim and I breathed through my skin (as do worms) then I'd quickly go end up myself.

I contend that at the recommended rates, carbendazim is a partially effective worm supressant at best. In wetter climates and when worms are most active (spring and autumn) it is not much good at all. In drier climates where worms are less active until later in the season, its supressant action is more notable, partially because these worms are not rising to the surface anyway. Spot spraying would appear to be most effective simply because much higher concentrations of the chemical are being focussed on a particular site. They are way way higher than on an evenly sprayed whole surface.

Why not have a straw poll here. It would be interesting if everyone rated the dryness of their square and field and commented on whether or not they sprayed and whether casting was a problem. Especially as some of us are very wet and some still dry.

Here's my contribution:

Square: soft, easily spikable to 6", sprayed twice with carbendazim in the last 4 weeks

Outfield: soft, unsprayed

Square: casting reduced to perhaps 50% of field but still hard to manage. Casting least where tracks are heavily rolled and either recently used for cricket or under preparation.

Outfield: Overrun with casts, between 5-8 per square foot.

If I have sprayed twice and carbendazim is a killer, then please don't tell me a whole new population has imported itself onto my square and evenly distributed itself overnight. I don't believe it.

I am willing to believe the capability carbendazim has of disrupting cell division will mean it has a negative effect on breeding potential of earthworms.

Anyway, that's my twopennyworth on the subject.

References:

http://stri.lib.msu.edu/vol74-1998/pdf/sptri98074025.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20821637

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n545052210r27750/

http://www.surrey-bigga.co.uk/downloads/Earth%20worms.pdf
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barry glynn
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

Interesting Eddie. I have no scientific knowledge at all on the subject but your analogy of the difference between immersing a worm in solution and what happens in reality, makes sense to me.
Last year I put caste off on my square with a sprinkling can. I also tried to make a barrier of two metres around the square. But I have no idea how these little critturs move.
I didn't really notice any significant reduction.
So this year I am going to wait until after renovation and try again then.
Can't see the point in doing it now when I'm going to rip it up scarifying it in a few days time. Don't know, what do you think?
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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Barry, I don't spray in the autumn for two reasons. If I have any worms then they are superb at mixing the new loam in and melting it with similar stuff further down. They are also very good aerators.

Spring is the time when I focus on controlling worms in order to minimise problems with pre season rolling.

If I was spraying, as you intend to, then I agree, get the renos in and the seed established first.
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vid
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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http://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/article/3957

http://www.setac-uk.org.uk/12.%20SianEllis.pdf

If you can still find them heres proof in here Eddy. I have researched this before and am happy that carbendazim is a killer of surface feeding worms through ingestion or absorption through the dermis the best being the latter. If it was an irritant that made them migrate away (unlikely in my view and not evident in my experience) then they would take an even larger dose of the chemical as they travelled, that would make it even less likely that they would do so. Other non surface feeding worms benefit from the reduction in surface feeding worms and these populations increase. Testing for worms for the most part was for worms still living in the test area where formaldehyde was used to express them - dead worms cant be expressed and due to their nature would decompose rapidly making identification impossible, no surface feeding worms in the sample would conclude that they are dead not just stopping in for a while with the X-box. When i posted this link I got a reply that the ring of worms around greens was proof of migration - actually its because the surrounds were not sprayed hence gradual reinfestation. Worms can travel but not once they are in good feeding areas.

Organic matter and Ph seem to be the biggest factors at 5.5 Carbendazim was very affective for me. Perhaps you have a high Ph or the worms for some reason did not come up and feed.

I have also had people say that there were just as many casts after application as before..........it definitely does not clear the actual casts!!!!!!
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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vid

I don't disagree with you, it's just that at the approved concentrations it doesn't seem that effective. At higher concentrations I'm perfectly willing to accept carbendazim is lethal. Hence my comments about spot spraying.

Your comments about pH are pretty much what I've found. By acidifying the square I get better control. In fact spraying a mild acid is sometimes more effective than spraying carbendazim.

My pH on the square is around 6.2 usually, so not paricularly acid but not alkaline certainly.
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vid
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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The half life of carb dereases with increasing Ph but I doubt 6.2 would be a problem. I cant shift the plantains off my football pitch - have tried everything and all conditions - still they have an uncanny knack of growing through, other grounds the plantains disappear at the meerest sniff of any weedkiller. Seeing as you have been posting on this subject as long as I have Eddy, I reckon worms must be the problem for you!!! Perhaps they are that new glowing worm microscolex p. as above
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Ken Barber
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

Success with carbendazime is all about the ph of the spray water not the soil. As Vid stated, Carbendazim is less affective and breaks down very quickly in a higher pH. Most peoples spray water is above pH7. By adding a acidifying agent, (most wetters are acid in nature) you will drastically improve the efficay of carbendazim......Trust me!

KB
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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Ken, vid, excellent points. I will try 3 different pHs in the spray water on 3 patches. I have plenty of areas to practice on! Tempted to see what the pH of my rainwater is too, to see if that is raising the alkalinity to non ideal levels near 7 when its really rainy..

I captured a sample of the casting worms a week or two back. They don't glow in the dark when you poke them and their casts are wrong.. Ironically the world expert on them and lots of other worms, from Lancaster University, Trevor Pierce, used to live about 100 yds down the road from me. Very nice helpful guy.

Back to handballing loam sacks.

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vid
Posted 13 Sep 2011
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There I am Ken recommending not to use wetters when in fact it seems the Ph has been the factor that makes the difference not the wetting properties.

Something new every day
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Arthur Smith
Posted 14 Sep 2011
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For the past 3 years i have used Densol 50 Flo. Reasonable cost and for me accessible. Not really into the science of soil make up but from my experience it does the job. A couple of treatments in February and March usually ensure no problems during the season unless exceptionally high rain fall.

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jlawrence
Posted 15 Sep 2011
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Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.

I'm starting to see a few casts on my squares now. With reno's coming up shortly I'll be waiting until late Oct/Nov before spraying carb.
The outfield is covered in casts - litterally 100's of 1000's of them. Much as I'd like to spray the outfield my budget won't stretch to that. I'll be asking the committee for funds to spray the outfields, no harm in asking but I'd be very surprised if they stump up the money.
Actually after checking the prices, I reckon I could get away with 15lt of caste off. I might actually stand a chance of getting my budget increase by £300 - so long as people stop running into things with my outfield mower.
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barry glynn
Posted 15 Sep 2011
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What do I do? I just cut the grass.

My outfield covered in them too but not worrying about them on there.
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 15 Sep 2011
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Can anyone tell me what Regi's Densol 50 Flo is as per above post. A product I've never heard of let alone applied. Is it an abbreviation for something else?
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GRG
Posted 15 Sep 2011
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Used it myself years ago, thought it had gone of the market. Still only Carb though, i think.
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Zippy
Posted 16 Sep 2011
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I think Regi means Delsene 50 Flo produced by NuFarm and AFAIK is not approved for Amenity use
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Ken Barber
Posted 16 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

Tch Tch Tch Regi........ How could you suggest such a thing?

KB
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 16 Sep 2011 Last edited: 16 Sep 2011
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Looked it up. Guess what? Delsene 50 Flo is 500g/litre carbendazim and not approved for amenity use (as bjd says). Caste Off? 500g/l carbendazim. Ringer? Yes, you guessed it, 500 g/l carbendazim. Which rather makes an ar*e of regulations in my opinion.

Interestingly, following Vid and Ken Barbers very useful comments on pH, the spec sheet for Delsene 50 Flo states:

"DELSENE 50 FLO is not compatible with alkaline substances such as lime sulphur."
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Ken Barber
Posted 16 Sep 2011
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The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under who’s shade you do not expect to sit.

Hi Eddy,
I think the regulation on specific uses is all about the additional cost to get approval for amenity turf. Which usually runs into £100,000's. It would originally have been labelled for ag use only and approval for ag has always been far cheaper, hence the difference in price and the reason for such regulations.

That's what I was always lead to believe anyway?

Someone will no doubt say otherwise.

KB
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eddyinfreehold
Posted 16 Sep 2011
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No, you're right Ken. It's just a nonsense about the cost of certification. The same concentration of the same chemical suspension, approved for agricultural fungicide use yet not approved for amenity fungicide use. The same chemical at the same concentration approved for amenity use as a 'worm controller' named in the documentation as a 'nematicide' when intended to control not nematodes but casting earthworms. Utter ********. We are paying through the nose to suppliers and the civil service who do none of the groundwork but pocket their salaries and grin. End of story. I may end up in the Sumomosr halvallah for that comment.
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GRG
Posted 17 Sep 2011
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This cost differenece has been going on for years Eddy. As i said, i used several years ago, did not believe it was still available.
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