With the mild winter, we have quite a bit of moss / algae on the square, what do members recommend? Lawn sand? iron sulphate or other chemicals....
12 Feb 2006 by GeoffP Last edited 12 Feb 2006
pandocc, I wouldn't recommend lawn sand on a cricket square. may affect binding qualities if used over a period of time. I put Sulphate Of Iron on my grass net area last week and It killed it off in a matter of hours. It looks a bit odd because it turns black but don't worry.
I haven't had a problem with moss on my Square this winter as yet because it has been so dry. Plus Iv'e aerated every month since last october.
Geoff
Thanks 12ttb, that was my gut feeling but as we are only volunteers I thought I'd check, would you use granular or liquid? We have managed to use a sarrel roller a couple of times which is why I was surprised to see the moss but as we are not full time we are not able to remove dew which I think is probably the cause of our moss.. thanks again..
Never use Lawnsand on cricket squares, liquid best any mosstox or other brands.any sulphate of iron liquid is the best to use .
12 Feb 2006 by Anthony Asquith
Hi
Aeration will have helped to encourage Percolation Rates throughout the winter !
Use an Dichlorophen based product as this`ll Kill the spores of the moss.
Once temperatures increase Verticutt the square and sarrel Roll followed by Overseeding.
With regards to Moss it`s there because of poor Grass Gowth and not the cause of it !
Anything you can do to Improve Density and the general Health of the plant will help.
Reducing plant stress will also help as any area that is Under stress or Sparse Moss,Poa ect will thrive.
Agree with the above never use sand on clay based structures !!
thanks
13 Feb 2006 by lee@standish Last edited 13 Feb 2006
nowt wrong with lawnsand, at the end off the day you should only be giving it a light light sprinkling.
Thats hardly going to upset the soil profile is it now?
chow for now
L.K.B
Thanks one and all, I think I have enough to go on now, it's difficult keeping on top of things when you are not full time (or even part time for that matter due to the boring day job).... especially in the winter when the only daylight hours you get to do anything is during the weekend and the wife has a monopoly on that!!
Thanks again, off to order the requisites!
13 Feb 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 13 Feb 2006
Hi
I disagree strongly lee !
When dealing with Clay structures it`s essential that a Compatable medium is applied with similar
Clay content
Shrinkage and swellings
OM
By applying sand you`ll be breaking down the clay structure and reducing the cohesive qualities that`s required to increase Bulk Density and soil strength on a Wicket
By applying INERT materials problems such as Layering and Rootbreaks occur that`ll be of Detriment to that 4-5" Block of clay your trying to aim towards to improve pitch Bounce,Speed ect
Ok you might not notice this in one year (And you may feel you`ve got away with it) but the general strength of the soil will be reduced thus Cracking,Poor Root Growth and planes of Weakness ect will occur !
Remember you can`t remove what you apply but you can choose the right Stuff to apply !
It`s imperative on Cricket that PSD and compatability of soils is matched to avoid problems.
thanks
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
Can you dilute Sulphate of Iron and spray it with a knapsack?
I'm told it will gunge up the pump?
anthony,
you are only using the lawnsand to kill the moss your not top dressing with it!!!!
L.K.B
pandocc
Got to back Anthony up on this one, there can be no good circumstances in which to use a lawn sand on a cricket square, for all the reasons he mentions.
OK an application may not seem that much, but as you are applying it to the surface just imagine the carnage you might inflict with sand sitting on top of a clay surface, then you get the gist of what AA is getting at.
I once came across a club using sand/loam dressing (bowls and golf mix) on their square, I've only just recovered from the shock!
Good Luck
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
So can I dilute this stuff or not?
Mr. Invisible.
lol!
zoid
Do you mean liquid or powder sulphate of iron?
Powder can be spread but needs a still day and care in application (not to mention a good mask as it gets everywhere)
AA is a big fan of this application, if you can't get him through the boards phone him on 07952 957692 he's always happy to help
Hope you're keeping things in order at Sefton Park!
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
lol!
If you get the Liverpool guy to book you for vertidraining the school pitches; while you're up here can you do mine on the cheap?
Powder sir.
Can I dilute it and and spray it with an old knapsack that I've just replaced?
If not, how do you spread powder?
You need the outfield vertidraining? Or the 3rd team pitch...or both? There are numerous contractors who could help there, I'll private message some tips.
The powder can be carefully broacast (try to find someone in your County Groundsman's Association who has the experience) but make sure it's a dead still day and any slight zephyr even is behind you- that stuf is awful if it gets down you. Its true if you use it in a knapsack you'll gunge up
The light at the end of the tunnel is not a train
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
I'll await them (the tips) with bated breath!
The top ground primarily Loammeister.
The poa and plantains seem to grow on the bottom one with a vigour normally unseen in an uncared for outfield.
;-)
Once you've killed the moss off on the square what is the best tool/method for scarifiying it out?
Tony
13 Feb 2006 by Anonymous
At this time of year you don't want to disturb the soil surface because if it dries out, the score lines will deteriorate and crumble giving an unstable surface. Therefore, the best method to remove the moss is the slow, painful way and that is by hand - either a spring tined rake or better still a Sisis lawnman with rake attachment. If you have a mower with verti-cut unit, you could VERY carefully use that, being sure not to disturb the surface, however, raking by hand is more thorough! 
Again guys thanks, we are contacting contractors to apply a Dichlorophen based product, and then remove the detritus.. I am in the Liverpool area too whats all this about vertidraining on the cheap!
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
pandocc
I'm the newly appointed custodian of Sefton Park CC.
If we can get Loammeister to do three grounds, I reckon our combined buying power might produce a good result?
Where are you sir?
13 Feb 2006 by zoid
Sorry, just realised you want a quick spash of mossicide.
I can do that for you. Best wait until the grass is growing, give it a top cut then spray. Leave for a week then scarify.
Is that right experts?
14 Feb 2006 by Anthony Asquith
Hi
Yes Spot on Zoid !
zoid
pandocc = Prescot & Odyssey CC... I'm sure you must know us?
As diclorophen is banned for amateur use I would be interested in a price... do you hold the correct certificates to use such?
2 squares approx area 15000 sq ft..
Do you mean 1500 2m?? as 15000 2m is about the size of 2 football pitches (give or take)!!!! 
No I meant 15000 sq FOOT... approx 1666 sq yd or 1393 sq m! total of 23 pitches @10ft =230ft x 66ft = 15180 sq ft.. give or take an inch 
Pandocc / Lee,
Before you take the advice of the "experts" re lawn sand, do the maths for yourself and see if you are worried by the results. I put my calculation below, you may chose to do it differently.
Assume you top-dress your square with 2 tonnes of Ongar loam. The composition is published as Clay 31%, Silt 38%, sand 31%. So you've applied 620kg clay, 760 kg silt and 620 kg sand. If you now apply 50kg of lawn sand per year (and we assume it's 100% sand, which it isn't), then in total you've applied 620kg clay, 760 kg silt and 670 kg sand. The effective composition of your top dressing for the year is Clay 30.2%, Silt 37.1% and sand 32.7%. Hardly a massive change.
The composition for Ongar "cricket pitch dressing" is 28:37:35. Therefore, your use of lawn sand has not taken the composition outside of commercial top dressing. That dressing may not be advised for test and county grounds, but it may well be fine for your needs.
I used to use lawn sand, with no noticable problems. I only changed when I realised that I could buy a 25kg sack of iron sulphate for for about £15 and its enough to treat my whole square 6 or 7 times.
To spray, disolve 1kg of iron sulphate in 5L warm, slightly acidified, water. As a home cider maker I use some of my own vinegar for acidification. You only need to be slightly acidic to avoid precipitation of iron hydroxide (precursor of rust). Commercial iron sulphate contains some insolubles - I strain the solution through an old tea strainer and then apply with a knapsack sprayer.
As an afterthought, how much sand blows in on the wind?
The ciderman rolls
Totally disagree with the comments re lawn Sand is Ok to use on Clay based surfaces.
The difference beetwen any Clay based top dressing, and Lawn sand, is that the clay, sand and silt particles used in clay dressing ( regardless of make or composition) are thouroughly blended together to create a soil that produces the desired effect for Cricket or Tennis so although "technically" there may be X% of sand, X Silt, and X % clay, what you really have is a clay top dressing, suitable for Cricket or tennis,together with the desired binding qualities.
If you use Lawn sand on a Clay based surface you will create problems for yourself ( probabbly not short term but without doubt over a longer period of time), namely;
The sand will sit on the surface, ( even if a small amount is used) affecting the bounce, pitch and pace of the ball.
Sand will be forced into the clay profile ( during rolling), reducing the binding qualities of the clay, this could lead to cracking, the sand particles will dry at a different rate to that of the Clay dressing and profile.
The surface will not hold together for the period of play, possibly resulting in a dangerous pitch.
Layering will eventually occur, resulting in root break this will exageratte cracking.
Because of Layering, root growth will be poor, the grass surface will be poor, possibly resulting in sub standard wickets.
What sort of Surface are you looking for in Cricket and Tennis?? A surface that is hard, compact, stable, produces good bounce and pace, and allows grass to survive within it ( through correct maintenance) show me a sand that can sustain all of the above, and then and only then could it be used in Cricket and tennis!
14 Feb 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 14 Feb 2006
Hi
Jon
Can`t understand why any groundsman would even contemplate applying Sand on his Wickets...Let alone give Advice to others to do so !
Especialy not in this day and Age
Personaly i can`t see any benefits from using Sand on your Cricket Squares especialy when Several products are available like Fe ect
We don`t want to get into the Habit of applying anything but Compatable materials on our Squares
So much Work has gone into Educationg Turf Managers about Compatability of soils and PSD ect
Thanks
14 Feb 2006 by zoid
Jon
I'll leave you to the experts re. lawn sand but your Iron Sulphate spaying method sounds great. I'll give it a go as I've got a cheapo knapsack that I'm not bothered if it does get clogged.
pandocc
Yes I know P&O, I played against your lot a couple of years ago. Nice track if I remember right (my innings didn't last long) crap umpires but I can't blame you for that!
I'm sure we can work something out. I'll private message you.
14 Feb 2006 by zoid
All
Re Spraying
I've been asked to do a couple of clubs spraying tasks (sorry contractors) but technically, although I have my certificates should I really be basis qualified to do small contracts?
In effect, I'm advising on pesticides and supplying them.
So do you need a spraying cert. for Sulphate of Iron?
I don't have one but our cricket square has a big moss problem mainly due to lack of aeration (I think!)
As I gather from this thread, sulphate of iron is the most cost effective method.
I have a paper thin budget. Where can I some?
Which is best granules/concentrate/pre-diluted?
14 Feb 2006 by Allant Last edited 14 Feb 2006
Vitax 50/50 slouble iron approximately £38.00 6x4kg packs should do the job.
Zoid if you are carrying out advisory and selling of pesticides you should be BASIS registered.
14 Feb 2006 by zoid
Thanks Allant, I'd better check this out.
Are all contractors BASIS qualified then? And aren't I advising my employers (the cricket club) on pesticides?
As to pandocc's areas though and just for my own (and possibly others calculations) am I right in calculating as follows?
I calculate the quantity a little differently though:
You have 23 pitches: 20.12 meters by 3.04 meters. However I would normally spray two meters beyond the bowling crease and a one meter buffer at the sides of the square. So,
The total width of the squares is: 3.04 times 23 = 69.92 plus 4 meter buffer makes 73.92
The length is 24.12
24.12 times 73.92 = 1783 sqmeters
A 5 ltr tub of mossicide covers only 1000 sq meters so you'll need the best part of two packs. I can get these for £48-50 + vat each.
The same area with chelated iron (5 ltrs covers 2500sq meters) would be £38.
Using John's method it would be peanuts!
Conclusion:
Iron (even relatively expensive chelated) is around a third of the price of mossicide. The only downside being blackening?
If I can dilute and spray powder on my squares, then it'll be much less still?
You should not have a problem if you are only carrying out the spraying operation, provided you have relevant spraying qualifications. It's when you are advising or selling that it becomes a different ball game.
14 Feb 2006 by lee@standish Last edited 14 Feb 2006
look all i'm sayiny is that no one should be scared off using lawn sand, especially once a year (early spring).
take in to consideration that a % will be taken out when raking the dead moss out.
its hardly going to upset the soil structure. get out side and work in gods class room instead of the book!!
and all so iron (Fe) is found in most products to do with moss killing anyway.
L.K.B
14 Feb 2006 by zoid
Iron yes but not sand lee?
I've tried broadcasting lawn sand. It's bloody hard to apply a thin coating without professional equipment, which most of us cricket guys don't have.
Getting lumps of the stuff on the square can't be good?
you can buy a decent cyclone spreader these days for not to much money and will last a long time when washed out properly.
if unsure you can ask other neighbouring cricket clubs and possibly borrow theres.
L.K.B
Surely for small cricket clubs with low budgets it makes sense to use liquid irons or ferts. The knapsack can also be used for selective herbicides as well.
14 Feb 2006 by Anonymous
Lee...Can`t understand why you advocate Sand on a Cricket square as the problems are mentioned by AA and neil.
You won`t gain nothing through using incompatable Topdressing for the reasons stated.Listen to Anthony and loammeister as far as Clay Soils are concerned.As stated sand will reduce the binding qualities of the soil
Regards
14 Feb 2006 by lee@standish Last edited 14 Feb 2006
obviously your not listening or at least reading anonymous. i said originally at the beginning " your only using lightly to kill the moss, your not top dressing with it"
plus theres no crime with using it.
ps. stop hiding behind the anonymous, show some balls hey and use your proper name.
L.K.B
14 Feb 2006 by Anonymous Last edited 14 Feb 2006
Lee,
LAWN SAND WILL affect a Clay based surface.
I am not going to expalain the reasons again, by applying it once, ( and it working) you will set a very bad precedent, as you will always do this when you have moss, it will become part of the "norm" for maintenance, then in a few years time when the wickets are poor, you will trace all the problems back to the use of Lawn Sand ( you will never remove ALL of the lawn sand through scarification)
There will be moss on a cricket square, the nature of the soil encourages it ;
heavy, compacted clay soils, which do not drain particulary well, even with aeration, Rye grass that produces an open sward and growth habit, enabling moss to invade the thinner grass areas.
Most moss will die naturally once the square starts to warm up and dry out and maintenance is carried out (verti cutting) , rather than use lawn sand, use an Autumn/winter feed with Iron.
15 Feb 2006 by olaf
lawn sand NO
sulphate of iron yes but, only kills adilt moss not spores.
dilutr 40/1 and spray it on.
diclorophen, will cure it but expensive.
better still is to wait a bit of sun and preseason prep and the algae goes away, consider when its dry a power brush accross the square. A lot of moss and algae around this year. it's only mid feb lots of winter yet don,t rush it.
Some people are like Slinky's, totally useless but amusing if you push them down the stairs
why not mix your own lawn sand using loam inplace of sand call it lawn loam and every one will be happy
17 Feb 2006 by zoid
What a damn fine idea?
A light dusting of loam, mixed with iron sulphate, spread now, should be ameliorated in time for pre-season rolling in a couple of weeks time, combined with a light scarification?
Genius
(This is, however, bordering on the edge of 'zoid's bright ideas' which don't, unfortunatly have a high hit rate)
It's a good job it's bailey's idea then?
:-)
Hello all
I am not an expert in cricket so excuse my ignorance. If it is the sand you are concerned with and not the Fe, what about the other granular feeds. Surely the carrier in most fertilizers is sand, or is it?
Got me thinking now!
17 Feb 2006 by Mmmm
and when dichlorophen is withdrawn??
BASIS - all advisers should be qualified.
17 Feb 2006 by zoid
paul
It is indeed the sand we're worried about as cricket is the only sport that wants compacted (consolidated to the picky) soil.
I understand that sand is difficult to compact so why would we want any on our tables?
I'm not aware that sand is a standard carrier but I bet you've been spreading it longer than me!
lol!
17 Feb 2006 by zoid
anne
Any chance of expanding a little?
Brevity can be a strength but rarely when exercised in contradiction or talking to loons like me.
17 Feb 2006 by Mmmm
dichlorophen is going to be withdrawn - as i understand. end of 2007.
sorry to go over old ground but..........
why is everyone so concerned about a little lawnsand when the loam you are using has sand in it?
17 Feb 2006 by zoid Last edited 17 Feb 2006
Withdrawn eh?
The "loamsand" could be a winner then!
Best get this patented bailey?
anne
Cricket loam = 25/35% Clay
Lawn Sand = 0/0% Clay
Clay = Good for cricket
Sand= Bad for cricket
Personally, I like to take my scotch neat. I don't dilute it.
(This is, however, bordering on the edge of 'zoid's bright ideas' which don't, unfortunatly have a high hit rate)
And here's me waiting for the paperback!! 
From the posh end of the room!!
17 Feb 2006 by zoid
lol!
I even got the name wrong.
LAWNLOAM!
Only £30 a pack from zoid/bailey enterprises.
i know a proper old groundsman that used to mix his own concoction for putting on wickets, and by all accounts had amazing results, he used to be at Old Trafford (cricket), he did try to tell me his recipe but i cant remember it , ask Peter Craig from the Hurlingham Club, he knows who im on about....dont you Peter?? LOL
Ticky supports British farmers...!!
17 Feb 2006 by Mmmm
http://www.binderloams.co.uk/page2.htm
Cricket Pitch Dressing - Village green, school and club wicket quality. Clay 28%, Silt 37%, Sand 35%, Motty Strength 88kg ( An inexpensive clay loam screened to 4mm which when rolled under the correct moisture conditions gives wickets of pace and bounce. Adequately supplied with available nutrients for healthy grass growth. pH 7.75).
ONGAR LOAM™ - County and club wicket quality Clay 31%, Silt 38%, Sand 31%, Motty strength 88kg (A heavy clay loam screened to 4mm which rolled under the correct soil moisture conditions gives hard wickets of consistent pace and bounce. Adequately supplied with available nutrients for healthy grass growth. pH 7.9).
ONGAR LOAM™ Plus- Test and county wicket quality Clay 30%, Silt 40%, Sand 30%, Motty strength 86kg (A mixture of two thirds ONGAR LOAM™ to one third imported 10mm screened Surrey loam re-screened through Binders plant to reduce to a maximum particle size of 4mm and thoroughly ameliorate the two materials. Adequately supplied with available nutrients. pH 7.6).
i dont drink scotch.
17 Feb 2006 by zoid
The lower the standard; the less sand.
17 Feb 2006 by Mmmm
but nevertheless, still sand?
18 Feb 2006 by zoid
 |
18 Feb 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 18 Feb 2006
Hi
I think a few of you are missing the point here !
Heavier soil used in Cricket and to less of an extent tennis are Blended together in such a way that they are suitable for Quick Bouncy wickets
Different soils have different shrinkage rates ie
Some shrink around 24% and some at 10% ect as different soils have a different structure !
if soils are not matched The difference in structure could cause root break as they`ll do it at different rates
if shrinkage rates are not matched the surface will struggle to bind properly so it`s vital compatability is followed
This is why heavier soils crack more as shrinkage rates are higher
You`ve got to be carefull when changing loams as some have different
Shrink swell characteristics
Clay content
Strength
For example you shouldn`t mix loams with any more than 2-3% difference in clay content or problems will occur Ie
Layering
Rootbreak
OM layers
So what i`m saying is You even have to be carefull with clays never mind LAWNSAND !
Sand generaly retains it`s shape after rolling so too high a % will reduce bulk density and strength
Higher clay contents depend on various things ie
Availability of covers
Standard
County clubs will Have a much heavier mediums as the standard of play is higher plus covers are available for "Moisture Management"
Remember "You can`t remove what you apply but you can choose what to apply" !
Applying lawnsand will could be Detrimental as they are not designed for Use on heavy clays used for cricket
If you was to apply an INERT material The sand would migrate into the surface after preperation and totally change the Binding qualities and soil strength which is required for the pitch to last several days when dry and produce quick Pitches that`ll "Hold together"
Remember on cricket your playing on "Soil bound together by roots" so anything that`ll effect the structure strength or Rootbreak is totaly to be avoided
Cricket soils are blended/mixed in a way that you`ll get cohesion through depth as the sand,silt,clay,om will produce Aggregation/peds that`ll be allowed to break and deform to produce a 4-5" block of clay several inches deep that`ll be ideal.
Sands are used from coarse,medium,fine ect to provide hydraulic conductivity and cohesion with the clay,silt,om ect
Why do you think you can`t use just 100% clay in a cricket soil ? As you require all for a soil type as just one won`t be mechanicly able to Bind !
You need them all in some proportion as they all work together to provide a soil for cricket ect
thanks
I think a whole new debate is taking place here, but first to answer the lawn sand issue.
For small village clubs who will not be able to afford to have someone to come in and spray, cannot afford the training to spray themselves, chemical is very expensive, then i say use lawnsand. As has already been stated, there is qiute a high percentage of sand in the loam already. I have known of its use and have not heard of any problems.
If you take the senario of six bags of loam applied to each wicket during the autumn renovations, then approx a third of that will be sand of various sizes. This then equates to two 25Kg bags of sand applied to each wicket.
If a couple of bags of lawn sand are applied to a ten wicket square, then i say the amount of sand applied to each wicket is negligable.
However, if village cricket clubs applied the appropriate amount of fertilser throughout the year, spiked there squares more often, kept the grass cut to an acceptable hieght through out the winter they would have far less moss to worry about come the spring. An application of an autumn winter fert. with an iron content in the spring, would then probabely be enough to control the little moss they had.
On to particle sizes, as stated somewhere above, a lot of fertilisers use sand as there carrier. Has any body done any research into the type or size of sand used, and does this have any ill effect on the structers that fertiliser is applied to. Answers from learn'ed folk in the industry would be very welcome. It would appear that many of us make an educated decision based around our own circumstances, and that many of those decisions could be very wrong.
Bath, I agree... I'm almost sorry I started this but I must admit the debate is facinating.... when the time is right we are going to spray with a diclorophen based product and a man with a certificate is going to do it for us eh zoid! We can afford the £100 or so it is going to cost us... it is the worst I have seen it in my 20 years or more at the club... hence the drastic maesures!....
the next issue is the major issue we have with moss on the outfield & the weeds!!! but that is going to cost £1000's to put right and will be the subject of a grant application we ad a quote last year including new drains but that was over £100k... we have 2 pitches...hence the expense. If there are any contractors who can do this type of work I would be interested in your contact details so I can start a bidding war... we are on merseyside... for now Thanks.
19 Feb 2006 by zoid
lol!
You're paying me £100 to spray your mossicide?
Result!
lol!!!!!!
I think not.... for that you could do both grounds! ;-)
and hand rake the detritis!
thank you very much bath
L.K.B
Being reading these old posts about moss on a cricket square as I see the first signs of it on a few bare patches I have. I'm wondering should I treat now with some liquid form of sulphate of iron or when I get the spiking done next weekend.
Regards
Collie
I'll be treating my square with some Fe sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Of course there's no bounce, bend your back and put some bloody effort in.
10 Nov 2006 by Anthony Asquith Last edited 10 Nov 2006
WOW this post is an old one!
Use a dichlorophen based product as this`ll controll the spores
Don`t apply if frost is expected!
10 Nov 2006 by Anthony Asquith
slightly off topic but...........
In previous posts i`ve stated my worries about 'distribution of fines' when using aer aid type machines etc - zoids graph of particle sizes above gives you an example how small micelles actualy are (ie 0.002mm) and how easy movement of these 'fines' can be!
No doubt 'migration' can occur affecting macro-porosity!
don't ever scarify live moss spores unless they have been treated with a mosskiller first eg iron sulphate etc, sand should not be used on a cricket square at any time for any reason
10 Nov 2006 by Collie Last edited 10 Nov 2006
As usual thanks for your time and advice. The one available over here seems to be Scotts Enforcer. Does that contain dichlorophen? And is it any good?
Regards
Collie
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